What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

On this week's episode, we have music manager Dave Rose (Lit, Marcy Playground, Stryper and many many more) and we discuss his journey starting out as a bassist and what it’s like managing today vs. the pre-digital age. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesDave Rose Agency: https://www.deepsouthentertainment.com/Dave Rose on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daverosedeepsouthDave Rose on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daverosedeepsouth/ A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptDave Rose:I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of musicMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?Dave Rose:Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.Michael Jamin:How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.Dave Rose:I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.Michael Jamin:That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when weDave Rose:Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.Michael Jamin:But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.Michael Jamin:Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.Dave Rose:Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.Michael Jamin:So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.Dave Rose:Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is thatMichael Jamin:Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,Dave Rose:And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,Michael Jamin:I'm sorry, go on.Dave Rose:That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.Michael Jamin:But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?Dave Rose:Only if you're in country music.Michael Jamin:Okay. Why is that?Dave Rose:It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,Michael Jamin:But a touring manager would No,Dave Rose:A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.Michael Jamin:Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?Dave Rose:I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.Michael Jamin:Can you share some of 'em with us?Dave Rose:Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.Michael Jamin:At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?Dave Rose:Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.Michael Jamin:But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.Dave Rose:I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.Michael Jamin:But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,Dave Rose:Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.Michael Jamin:Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?Dave Rose:I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.Michael Jamin:From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.Dave Rose:Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.Michael Jamin:I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.Dave Rose:That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. SoMichael Jamin:Misunderstand this, which is fine.Dave Rose:I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.Michael Jamin:On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not sellingDave Rose:It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.Michael Jamin:See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.Dave Rose:They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.Michael Jamin:But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?Dave Rose:Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, andMichael Jamin:Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, butDave Rose:Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dave Rose:And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.Dave Rose:Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter toDave Rose:You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.Michael Jamin:I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. ProbablyDave Rose:Not.Michael Jamin:So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl'sDave Rose:House,Michael Jamin:Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? YouDave Rose:Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,Michael Jamin:But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?Dave Rose:I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. ItMichael Jamin:Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.Dave Rose:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.Dave Rose:It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,Michael Jamin:For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.Dave Rose:You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.Michael Jamin:Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.Michael Jamin:I see.Dave Rose:And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.Michael Jamin:I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. ButDave Rose:No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.Michael Jamin:Is that what happened though?Dave Rose:That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. DoMichael Jamin:You think people walked out? I mean,Dave Rose:Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.Michael Jamin:I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,Dave Rose:Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping itMichael Jamin:Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. JumpDave Rose:The Shark. Is that aMichael Jamin:Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I rememberDave Rose:That.Michael Jamin:And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.Dave Rose:Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.Dave Rose:Oh, really?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.Dave Rose:What did you work on with him?Michael Jamin:It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about thatDave Rose:Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me aboutMichael Jamin:There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not forDave Rose:Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.Michael Jamin:And do you have these conversations with your bands?Dave Rose:Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,Michael Jamin:But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.Dave Rose:They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?Michael Jamin:Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you ItDave Rose:Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.Michael Jamin:I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.Dave Rose:They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.Michael Jamin:On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,Michael Jamin:Oh, you haven't.Dave Rose:It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?Dave Rose:Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,Michael Jamin:Really? Do you not take it personally then, orDave Rose:One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. AndMichael Jamin:It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?Dave Rose:That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at some point you're going to want your act touring with their act, or you're going to want their act being featured on a record of your act. And if you burn bridges, it's just going to, I mean, I know people that do burn bridges, but it's rarely good.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.What is then the pinnacle for, I mean, we know what the pinnacle for an artist's career would be, whatever, selling a ton of records playing the Super Bowl, whatever they aspire to do, but what's the pinnacle for your career?Dave Rose:Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, it's interesting. I was taking my son to school the other day and he said, daddy, work seems like it's really fun, is work really fun. And he's come to my office before, and I got thinking about that, and I've chosen a path that really is fun. Never, this sounds corny to say I've never felt like I've worked a day in my life, really. It just really has never felt like work. I am so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music.There's very few high level artists, celebrities I haven't met or come in contact with. And so none of that is really the moment for me. It's seeing an act like this band formerly that we're looking at. They're a country act. They've had four or five number one hits. They were playing in their garage in Greenville, North Carolina, small town where I grew up. I happened to just know them, and I took them to Nashville, one thing. So that's sort of what this business is for me. You see a band in a garage, and the next thing you know, they're accepting an award on stage, and it's just a beautiful feeling to know that you've helped an artist achieve those dreams.Michael Jamin:Interesting. It's interesting that that's where you take the joy in. I would think that part, you're not the one who wants that dream. You're not the one, the artist. You're not the one who wants that dream, your dream joy doing it for others.Dave Rose:I would think there's similar satisfaction in being a writer, I would think. I mean, maybe you were motivated to be on screen all the time or in front of the camera all the time, butMichael Jamin:No, not really. No, not really. But I think writers are worried about their career. I want to write this, I want to make a lot of money or whatever.Dave Rose:Yeah. Well, the money certainly an enjoyable part of it, but it's not the driving factor, and it can't be in music, so risky.Michael Jamin:But you also, I guess, arrange entertainment events,Dave Rose:Right? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's very, you did your homework. Yeah, so around the turn of the century, so I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm in Nashville almost weekly, but I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and in Raleigh, North Carolina, there are not a lot of artists management or record labels. It's a big, very creative music city, but there's not a lot of high level. So as Raleigh started to feel like they needed entertainment in their city and started thinking about amphitheaters and growth and expansion of their city, they kind of came to me saying, you've had artists play in these cities all over the country. Could you help us bring the good bad and the ugly of that to Raleigh and help us produce events? So yeah, over the past 20 years have become the kind of go-to, I produced the North Carolina State Fair and all the big festivals,Michael Jamin:But you keep it to this one region, though.Dave Rose:I do. I pretty much stay in the central, the Eastern North Carolina region. And it's funny because when bands go out on tour, I'm managing bands. I learned from Bruce Hornsby one time. I called him, I'd always check in after the show, and how did it go and whatever. And he went and played one show somewhere, and I said, how was the show? And he said, he kind of laughed while I said this, but he said, I was staring at a funnel cake sign the whole time. WhatMichael Jamin:Does that mean?Dave Rose:Funnel cakes? So you're playing this car almost like a carnival. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's plenty of respect in funnel cakes, but as an artist who played in the Grateful Dead Done Jazz records, not really his thing. So I kind of made a joke of always keep the funnel cake stand a little bit away from the stage, but I took all of this feedback from artists, what the backstage was like, what the stage was like, what the PA was like, what the lights were like. I took all the good, bad and the ugly from the artist, and I brought it back to my community to try to make the best concerts and events.Michael Jamin:I imagine there was a huge, not just a learning curve, but also financial risk in the beginning for you. No,Dave Rose:Yeah, I racked up a lot of credit cards.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I mean,Dave Rose:Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:Wow.Dave Rose:Yeah. One of my, yeah, I sure did. We started this company on a credit card, and that's what got us going. We produced CDs on credit card. We racked up a lot of credit card debt hoping this would win.Michael Jamin:What do you, and it's paid off.Dave Rose:It's paid off,Michael Jamin:Right?Dave Rose:I paid it off last week.Michael Jamin:Just last week. You made a final payment, you got points for it. But what advice then, do you have for, I guess, new artists? I mean, maybe either musicians or, I dunno, artists.Dave Rose:Yeah. I think the hardest thing to do, particularly in this world of TikTok and YouTube and reels, is to really be authentically you, because it's so easy to want to try to be the person that just went viral,And that's never going to move the needle. That's never going to make a big splash. You might have a moment, I don't know if you remember, maybe three or four months ago, there was an artist on TikTok named Oliver Anthony that went massively viral. He is a bearded guy from the mountains and kind of just sang very, very pure songs, but went enormously huge. And within weeks, you've got every mountain guy with a beard trying to do the same thing. And it's really hard to not do that. When we're faced with that all the time, back in the day of Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones and everything else, one didn't really know what the other was doing.Michael Jamin:SoDave Rose:You went into your bubble and you created art in a way that you felt led to do, and now you're so pressured to try to be the next viral thing, and that's the hardest thing. So my advice is don't do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You also, it's funny because I am a fan of your tiktoks. You give such interesting, great advice. You gave one post, this was maybe half a year or maybe a year ago, I don't know. And I was like, yes, I wanted to stitch it, but I guess I just didn't have the balls. And then I forgot about it. The post you did was, I guess a lot of people come to you for advice, and they just think they can just, Hey, you pick your brain or buy you a cup of coffee cup as if your time is worth $5 an hour, because that's what coffee costs. But you handled it very gracefully and graciously, but I'm not sure. Did you get any blowback for it?Dave Rose:Yeah. You're on TikTok, the blowback key. I mean, you definitely get, but by and large, by and large, what I ended up getting is it's been beautiful actually. Ever since then, I've got a lot of artists coming to me saying, look, I'm not going to offer to buy you a cup of coffee. I know how you feel about that, but I would like 30 minutes of your time, and how would I go about doing that? That's a beautiful way, I mean, I really picked this up from an attorney one time, and I was on the three-Way call with an artist, an attorney, and myself, and the artist said to the attorney, Hey, I got this contract and I don't really have a lot of money to spend, but I was hoping you could read it over and I could buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brainMichael Jamin:On it. Yeah. What did the attorney say?Dave Rose:And the attorney said, look, I understand you mean well, but I only have two things to sell. I've got my time and my knowledge, and you have just asked for both of those things for free.Michael Jamin:Yes. That's a good way of saying it.Dave Rose:And I just thought, wow. That's right. And as a manager, that's what you have. You got your time, your knowledge, and your connections. And if you're picking my brain, you are asking for those things for free. And I don't have anything else to feed my family with, butMichael Jamin:I wonder, is it because, because people ask me the same thing, and I guess it's because some people are actually giving it to them for free. Do you thinkDave Rose:It is? Yeah. I mean, they must be, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, I guess.Michael Jamin:But then I wonder if you're only paying $5 for advice, and that advice is only worth $5, I mean, why would you want to take $5 advice?Dave Rose:Right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, that's been a tough part of the music business because yeah, so thanks for noticing that. But I do think we, as a sort of service society, whether you're a screenwriter or whether you're a manager or an agent or whatever, all people really have is what's in their head and their time. And so to take that so lightly is to think that buying you lunch is going to somehow make it worthwhile. It just doesn't, not only doesn't make sense in a strange way, it's rude.Michael Jamin:Well, I don't think it's strange. I mean, I do think it's rude. Yeah, yeah.Dave Rose:But as I said, I think in that TikTok, I said, I understand you're offering to buy me something. So I understand that you're trying to be in your own way, polite, but let me just educate you. That's not a compliment to say that your time is worth a cup of coffee.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. But I appreciated that video. I really did. I was like, doDave Rose:You get a lot of people asking to pick your brain?Michael Jamin:Yes. I guess less and less, butDave Rose:You do some consulting as well, right?Michael Jamin:Well, what I did was eventually I signed up for, there's this app where you can sign up to be an expert. And so people ask me a question, sometimes it's an autoresponder, and it says, if you want to book time with Michael, you can do it. So here, a half a dozen people have booked. Everyone's asking, but no one books time. So to me, interesting. And I didn't do it because that's to make money, but I was like, well, look, if you want it, you're going to have to pay. But they don't want it bad enough to pay. So,Dave Rose:Well, it's interesting. I'm on a platform called August managers.io, and that's where I do my 30 minute consultations. And I've partially used it as a filter. It's funny, I'll get artists that go out and spend $10,000 on recording and $10,000 on video and photo shoots, and then they'll come to me and say, can I pick your brain for a cup of coffee? And I'm thinking, you have just spent $20,000 making music, and now the most important part, getting it out to the public, that's worth a cup of coffee to you. So I sort of use this platform as a filter. It's like Chemistry 1 0 1 in college. If you're willing to just invest a tiny bit to spend a little bit of time with a professional, I at least know you're serious.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's how I see it as well. So you're weeding people out. They don't really want, yeah, I guess that's how unserious they are. If they're getting caught up on booking a half hour with me, then they don't really want,Dave Rose:I would think in your world, people want you to read their script, isMichael Jamin:That, oh, there's a lot of that, but you got to pay me way more than, I mean, here's the thing. I don't even do it, but they all want it. They want me to spend an hour and a half reading their script, another hour assembling notes, and then another hour on a phone call them giving them my notes while they get angry and defensive telling me why I'm wrong and do it for free. I mean, oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a ball to me. But it's not about the money. The answer is no, all around. But it also exposes me to liability side because I don't want to be sued for taking someone's idea. SoDave Rose:Totally. I mean, that's a big part of the music business a lot. You'd hear about unsolicited music, and a lot of people, myself included, will not even open an email with music attached if I don't know who it is. Is itMichael Jamin:Because for liability reasons?Dave Rose:Yeah. TheyMichael Jamin:Think you're going to steal their sound or their song.Dave Rose:I think Yes. I think they do think that. And I think in the history of the music business, that has happened maybe three times. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Interesting. So it's funny that that's a topic even, I don't know if it happens in the film and TV business, but in the music business that anytime you've heard of a lawsuit of one suing the other about a sound, it's very, very rarely actual theft. Most often, there's only eight chords, and you can arrange them in only so many ways. And if you're in a genre like hip hop or country where it's in some ways a little bit of a formula in the way your pop music is that way, you write very narrow melodies and chord progressions. It's bound to your, I mean, about the a hundred thousand songs released a day, you're bound to cross paths there in a close manner. It's very rarely malicious.Michael Jamin:So then how are you listening to new music, if at all? Is it because you see an act on stage or something?Dave Rose:Yeah, no, I will listen to it if it's coming to me from a vetted source or if it's coming to me in a way that I feel. But I get a lot of just very blind emails, never met, seen, heard of the person. And one of my favorite quotes was Gene Simmons said one time, look, if I'm hearing about you for the first time from you, you're not ready.Michael Jamin:You're not ready. Interesting.Dave Rose:Because we keep our ears to the ground. I mean, I'm hearing about artists all the time. I mean, I can't go to the dentist without hearing about five new artists. People know that we work in the music business. So no matter where I go, the coffee shop, the dentist, the pizza shop, whatever, they're going to tell me about their cousin that just released a song. That's the next Beatles. So I hear about stuff, and if I hear about it from 7, 8, 9 different places, I start to know there's something there.Michael Jamin:Right. I directed Gene Simmons, by the way, on an animated show. I had to yell. NoDave Rose:Way.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah. Well, he came into the studio like a rockstar, which is what he is, of course. And then he is holding court and, Hey, dude, we're paying for this thing. And I knew I was going to get yelled at by my boss, so I had to say, Hey, gene, we're recording now. I had to tell shot him, get onto the microphone.Dave Rose:Oh, that's awesome. He is a really interesting person. I've met him a couple of times. I really am amazed by his story.Michael Jamin:That's funny. Chrissy Hy came in. My partner had to direct Chrissy, and she came in also like a rockstar into the booth, and she's smoking a cigarette and you're not supposed to with the equipment. And he asked her to put it out, and she wouldn't. And he was like, that's fine with me. Whatcha going to do?Dave Rose:I love it. She'sMichael Jamin:Chrissy Hein. She gets to do what she wants. But that's so interesting. Yeah. I get that same sometimes when people ask me a question and I wonder if you feel the same way about breaking into the business or some kind of basic thing. They leave a comment and I'm like, all you got to do is just scroll down and all my videos are labeled. You're going to find it. I wonder how bad you want it. If you feel like you have to ask me without looking. This is literally the least you have to do to find an answer nowadays.Dave Rose:I did a video recently where one of the most common questions I get is, somebody will present their music to me and they'll say, do you think I have what it takes to make it? And that is without question, the hardest question to answer because I don't know your definition of make it. And to be honest, a lot of people don't know their definition of make it. I had a band come into my office one time, they finally, they've been wanting to line up a meeting. They came in and they said, I said, so what do you guys want to do? What are you hoping to do? And they said, well, we want to be successful. You know what I mean? And I said, well, no, I don't know what you mean. Tell me what success means to you. And they said, well, we want to make a living at music.I said, well, that's good. I can have you doing that within 30 days. And they kind of looked at me like, wow. We hit the jackpot coming to this meeting, and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to buy you a bunch of tuxedos. You're going to learn some top 40 songs. We're going to play the wedding and corporate cover circuit, make a great living. They kind of looked at you and they were like, no, that's not what we meant. Okay, let me change that answer. We want to make a living playing our music. I said, alright. Little bit harder to do, but we can still do it. There's sports bars around the country where you set up in the corner and they don't really care what you play, your background music, but you make a pretty decent living. You'll make good tips.We're like, no, no. Lemme think about this. They thought about it for a little bit more and they said, okay, we got it. We want to be on the radio. Then one other guy spoke up and he said, playing our music. I said, okay, I got you, my friend does the Sunday night local show on the radio station. He's a friend of mine. He'll play anything I send him. I'll send him your song, he'll play it on Sunday. You will have been successful. And they like, all right. And one guy spoke up at that point and he said, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to confuse us. I said, no, no, no. You're quite confused on your own I'm trying to do is point out that I can't help you until you know what you want. And there's no wrong answer to that. Some artists come to me and say, I want world domination. I want to be the next big, huge thing. And others simply say, I just want to make great music and I don't really care if I make a living. I just want good quality music out there.Michael Jamin:Is that right?Dave Rose:Oh yeah. PeopleMichael Jamin:Really do. But I imagine, I mean, you got to pay your bills. That's not attractive to you. Right?Dave Rose:It's not attractive to me and that's okay, but there's still a place for that in this world. But yeah, and here's the other thing. A lot of people think they want that world domination and playing arenas, but the moment we start saying things like, well, let's say a country artist came to me and they said, I want to be the biggest country star in the world. First thing out of my mouth would be, you're going to need to move to Nashville. You don't need to do that in every genre, but in country, that's a must be present To Win town, you're going to have to be in Nashville. Well, I don't really want to do that. I got this and a job and whatever. So I tell people all the time, prioritize where music is in your life. It doesn't have to be number one, but just knowing where it is will help you make decisions on what's most important. When I give advice to artists, I often ask them, do you have kids and are you married? And tell me about your personal life. The truth is, the advice I give to someone with a two month old baby at home is different than a single 21-year-old that can go out and explore the world.Michael Jamin:What do you think it is that people like me, Hollywood, what do I get? What do we get wrong about the music industry when we portray it on TV and film?Dave Rose:Oh wow. Well, it's funny because in every music based show, I used to watch the show Nashville, which was produced very well, and it was done in Nashville, so it had a lot of authenticity to it. But I think what I don't think you get it wrong, I think you have to portray it this way because that's the way TV is made. But you can go from in one episode writing a song to going on tour with Bon Jovi all within a week or two's time, what seems like a week or two's time in a film or TV show. And it's a laborious, long as you know from any aspect of entertainment, it's years before you start to take off from that runway. It's a several year runway, but I think the public as a result of just all of our short attention spans shows and even movies have to be written. So that what seems like in a couple of months, couple of weeks, sometimes you go from writing this song to touring with Beyonce.Michael Jamin:Why do you think, and I say this selfishly, I want to know for myself, why do you think the runways is so long before you take off? Why does that mean, why does it take so long?Dave Rose:Well, I think a lot of it is because writing music, like writing anything takes a lot of hours to get good at it.Michael Jamin:Okay, but let's say you got your album out and it's a great album now it's going to take years beforeDave Rose:No, no, no, no, no. It's going to take years to get that greatMichael Jamin:Album. Right. Okay.Dave Rose:Right. Once that great album is assembled and together, it can be a relatively, I mean, it can be a relatively short runway to success once that great in Nashville, there's a saying when somebody comes into me with a publisher and a publisher is someone who oversees the copyrights of songs, but when someone comes to me with a publisher and they say, how many songs have you written? No matter what the answer is, they almost always say, come back when you've written your next a hundred. Really, there's kind of an unwritten seven year rule in Nashville. You should not expect success for at least seven years after you come to townMichael Jamin:With your first album,Dave Rose:With your first set of releases. It just takes that long to get really, really top level good at this in any genre. I think, I mean, if there was a comment section on this podcast, there would be tons of people giving me the exceptions to those rules right now, which is the beauty of the music business or any entertainment. There's exceptions to that rule. There's overnight sensations, but by and large, most of the big artists had a long runway.Michael Jamin:So you're listening, if you were listening to an album by a new artist, you're thinking, okay, maybe one or two songs has got something in the rest are just not there. You're sayingDave Rose:Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you take a band, it's funny, that first hit, I worked with Sex and Candy, the band, Marcy Playground, between the time they rode and recorded that and it became a number one hit was four years.Michael Jamin:Okay,Dave Rose:Four years.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. So they had the goods, but it took four years before people discovered they had the goods.Dave Rose:That's right. That was a very interesting journey. They charted on college radio and then they tried to work to regular radio. It didn't happen, and they label problems and they tried again and it finally happened. Same thing with this band, sixpence On The Richer and the song Kiss Me. They had that song Kiss Me on a Record, and it did not become a hit for another two years.Michael Jamin:Wow. Okay. So then how do they do that? Is it just touring? Is it just getting it out there? Just having people listen,Dave Rose:In the nineties it was touring. It was just getting out there and touringMichael Jamin:Even. Not today. You're saying today's it's not like that today.Dave Rose:It's not. I mean, it's some touring is one aspect of it, but the beauty of Michael, you and I would not be here talking if it were not for TikTok. And as much as I love to hate on social media platforms for all the reasons they're easy to hate on there is I tell our assist all the time. There is someone in Topeka, Kansas right now that loves what you do. You just got to find them. And if you do, there'll be fans for life. But unless you plan on touring Topeka, Kansas this week, you're not going to find 'em. So get online and postMichael Jamin:How many, I've heard numbers and I if it's true, but how many crazy, what's the word, rabid fans, do you need think a band needs before they hit critical mass?Dave Rose:Well, critical mass is a subjective term, but I say this a lot. You only need a thousand fans. And I'm talking about real fans. Fans that would give the shirt off their back fans. I'm not talking about followers,Michael Jamin:I'm notDave Rose:Talking about likes or subscribes,Michael Jamin:Right? People who open their wallet,Dave Rose:A thousand fans that consume everything you put out. That's all you need to make a great living in music.Michael Jamin:But how is that possible? Okay, so if you've had a thousand fans, they're scattered all across the country and I don't understand, how does that make you a good living? You can put it on a new album to a thousand fans. How does that make you a living?Dave Rose:I'll tell you how that is because when I was 10 years old, I had a older cousin, cousin Rick and I went to his house and he had a wall of vinyl records, more vinyl records than you could ever imagine. And he reached and he had got a new stereo and he wanted to show me the stereo, and he pulled up a Boston record, the classic rock band Boston. They had just put out their first record and he put it on the turntable and he was telling me everything he needed to tell me about Boston, and I was just mostly fascinated by the fact that of a thousand records on his wall, he picked that one to tell me about it. And from there I went and bought the record. I consumed, I bought the T-shirts, I bought this. The thing about a thousand fans is they're your marketing arms. A thousand fans are not going to keep your music close to their chest and keep it over here in the corner. They're going to tell everybody that'll possibly listen. And if you've got a fan that it gets in the car with their friends and they got three minutes to the next drive and a billion songs to choose from, they're going to choose yours. And that's going to turn those fans, those friends into fans. So it starts with a thousand core fans and you can really take over the world.Michael Jamin:I wonder, and again, I say this selfishly, I put out a book, and so this is the first venture. I've done solo like this, and so I'm curious how many, when do I go viral? How does that work for me? When do my thousand fans kick in and how does thatDave Rose:Work? I think a book is the hardest thing in the world. I've now released, I'm about to release my third book, and it is the hardest thing. God bless you. This is a great book. And by the way, everybody, I mean John Mayer endorses it. I loved your video on John Mayer,Michael Jamin:By the way.Dave Rose:I mean, that's insane. But yeah. Yeah. I hope your thousand fans, I feel like they're out thereMichael Jamin:Because you think because no one wants to read, you're sayingDave Rose:No. I think fans do want to read. I mean, do you have an audio version of this?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I have an audiobook. Yeah.Dave Rose:Yeah. So you've 'em covered whether they want to read or not. Right,Michael Jamin:Right. Interesting. Okay.Dave Rose:Did you read the book for the audio version?Michael Jamin:Perform it really? It's a performance. Yeah.Dave Rose:Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll have to listen to that. That sounds really interesting. No, I think a thousand fans can be your marketing champions, but getting those thousand is hard. It's the equivalent of having a thousand really good friends that really care about what you do. They're passionate about your calls, your reason for doing this.Michael Jamin:But do you have any evidence to suggest that a thousand is the right number? You know what I'm saying?Dave Rose:I don't. Right. Well, I know this, there's a lot. One of the revenue streams right now for artists is things like Patreon and Patreon's a big thing for the super fan. The super fan will give you a little bit of money each month, three, five, $10 to consume a little extra insight into your life, whether that be unreleased songs or behind the scenes videos or whatever that might be.Michael Jamin:That seems hard though, but I'm sorry, go ahead.Dave Rose:If you have a thousand people willing to give you $5 a month cup of coffee back to our cupMichael Jamin:Of coffee,Dave Rose:$5 a month, that's $5,000 a month just on that one revenue stream. They're also going to consume your music. They're going to buy your T-shirts, they're going to come to your shows, but more importantly, a thousand fans can quickly turn viral into 10,000 when they're passionately telling everyone under the sun about you.Michael Jamin:You must must talk about this with your bands about shutting a Patreon, but don't they say, well, we are already posting on social media. What the hell else do we have to say behind the paywall when we're already saying everything? We're already struggling to give enough for free.Dave Rose:The thing that I'm finding is working the most is one-on-one or Experiences. For example, I have this one artist that does listening parties on their Patreon. They go on and they play their music, and they'll talk about the making of it, and they'll pause the record and they'll say, Hey, I was trying this solo and it didn't work. And these are one-on-one, and the people are shooting questions and the artist is answering them, and they're not recorded, and they happen in the moment. And so for an extra five bucks a month, you get to get inside the life of that artist, andMichael Jamin:You can put that inside Patreon. How is it being broadcast?Dave Rose:So it's being broadcast just on a Zoom, but only patrons have that link and they have a special code to get in and all that sort of stuff,Michael Jamin:And that's kind of what they're doing for $5 a month. You get basically thatDave Rose:You get experiences. Some artists, it really depends on your fan base. Some artists release a song per month. They'll write a song and release it. Got a Texas artist that I'm friends with that that's what he does. He releases a song only to his Patreon crowd once a month. He's such a prolific writer. He could probably write an album per month. So putting an extra song on Patreon that nobody else hears is,Michael Jamin:And no one else will hear that song. NobodyDave Rose:ElseMichael Jamin:Will ever. I mean, that seems almost crazy.Dave Rose:Well, I wouldn't say ever, but in some ways you can use Patreon as your vetting for what songs you should be releasing.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dave Rose:You can put 'em out there to your thousand hardcore fans and watch which ones they really react to.Michael Jamin:Do you have a Patreon?Dave Rose:I don't personally, no. I run a lot of Patreons for artists. I don't personally have one. No,Michael Jamin:Those are all interesting ideas. Any other you? No, but I've been, here's the thing, Dave, every time I should, but I'm like, do I really want to put more on my plate? You know what I'm saying? It's putting stuff on your plate.Dave Rose:You've got a great course. I've been very much admiring your ability to put out courses, and one of the things I've liked that you've done, I've noticed, is you put out very specific topics for a pretty low amount.Michael Jamin:Well, it's free. I do these webinars that are free. Well,Dave Rose:The webinars, the free webinars are insane. I, but I would think that's got to help in the overall big picture of things. No,Michael Jamin:Maybe yes and no. Yes and no. We could talk more. Maybe we'll talk more about that off the podcast. I'll get your advice on something. Yeah, butDave Rose:You do have courses, right? I mean,Michael Jamin:I have one course. Yeah, it's a screenwriting course. Yeah. Yeah.Dave Rose:And I mean, somebody might buy that in the middle of the night and you're making money without having Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Which is nice. And that supports me, that allows me to do the creative things that I want to do that don't necessarily make a lot of money, but I want to do 'em. So yeah.Dave Rose:What are you working on right now that you're able to tell,Michael Jamin:Oh, well, you'reDave Rose:Able toMichael Jamin:Share? Right now it's about putting my book, getting my book out there. We're pitching an animated pilot in the next couple of weeks. Will it sell? I don't know. We'll see. And then we'll pitch a couple other shows. Will it sell? We don't know. That's how it goes.Dave Rose:I want to mention that real quick as it relates to your music audience. That's a big question. I guess somebody will write a song and send it to me and say, do you think I could sell this to another artist? Which is interesting because in music it does not work that way at all. You don't sell a song.Michael Jamin:I think you write a song. I think you could be a songwriter for somebody. So what's the difference then?Dave Rose:So when you write a song, you basically give that song to an artist, and if that artist chooses to cut it, you are in a revenue stream on that.Michael Jamin:Right? Okay. That youDave Rose:Don't sell songs. Big misconception in the music business,Michael Jamin:But I guess I'm not clear on the difference then wouldn't you send them a track and say, do you like this? And then you have to send 'em a track. They have to hear it, right?Dave Rose:Yeah. They have to hear it. And if they like it, they cut it. They don't pay you for that song. Whenever that song is played on the radio, you get a royalty stream from that, or you get a royalty streamMichael Jamin:FromDave Rose:It's spun on Spotify royalty stream from that. But the artist is not buying a song from you, and by the way, you still own that song. So you can take that song to someone else and to someone else and to someone else. That's why you have lots of different cover versions ofMichael Jamin:Oh, I see. Song. Okay, so you can get three different artists. I would've thought if you, I'm so sorry, I meant to put this on silent. Lemme this right now, I canDave Rose:Hear.Michael Jamin:Okay. I would've thought when whoever major, whatever, Taylor Swift, I dunno, maybe she probably writes all her own music, but if she didn't were to agree to record your song, I would've thought she'd say, no, it's me and me alone.Dave Rose:You can't do that. It's not the way, yeah. I mean, she can say, I'm the first one to do it. You can't let someone else do it first. But once a song, this is an interesting part of the music business, but once a song is in the public demand, once it's been released, anyone can cover it. Day Taylor Swift releases a song, you, Michael Jamin can go the very next day and record that song as long as the proper royalties are paid to her as the songwriter.Michael Jamin:Why is that not done more often then?Dave Rose:You don't even need to ask her permission. I mean, it is done. Just pop on Spotify or YouTube. If you take any song, take a Taylor Swift song and just search YouTube or search Spotify, and you're going to see hundreds of versions of that song.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. See, I'm long on all this stuff. I failed. This has been a very eyeopening conversation forDave Rose:Me. Oh man. Next week I'm going to reverse the, I'm going to be asking you questions. If I had a podcast, you'd be my firstMichael Jamin:Guest. I would appreciate that. No, I would do it in a heartbeat. Dave Rose, you are, thank you so much, and I want to make sure everyone knows where they can follow you on all their social media.Dave Rose:Yeah, so the name of my company is Deep South. If you search Dave Rose Deep South on almost any, I mean, stick it in Google and that'll take you everywhere You needMichael Jamin:To go take everywhere. Go follow. I mean, go follow him. There's so much overlap, I feel between the things that we say, and yet still, I feel like I learn a lot just by listening to you and watchingDave Rose:You. Likewise, when I started following your page, I was like, wow, there is a lot of similaritiesMichael Jamin:In this business. Yeah, it's so interesting. But thank you again so much. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation. Don't go anywhere. Don't stay right there. Alright, everyone, what a great conversation we had. Go follow Dave Rose and Deep South and until Next Week, keep writing.Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On December 30th, I hosted a webinar called “How Professional Screenwriters Overcome Writer’s Block” and I talked about why story structure is so important in getting past this block. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch. Show Notes A Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/book A Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1 A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4 A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Michael Jamin: Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freaking Michael Jamin: Hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what you Michael Jamin: Don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a show runner. Like, this is a hard job. I don't know how to do it. Michael Jamin: You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. Michael Jamin: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, we're doing another q and a from one of our webinars and my special guest host is Kevin Lewandowski, script coordinator extraordinaire. He helps out with a lot of my projects, social media projects here and he's subbing in for Phil and he's doing a great job. So welcome Kevin. Kevin Lewandowski: Thank you again for having me. Michael Jamin: You screwed it up. You already screwed. No, I'm only messing with you. You're doing great. Thanks. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, I'm not going to apologize for not being Phil anymore, so fair Phil. But no, I'm happy to be here and this how professional screenwriters overcome Writer's Block is one of my favorite topics to talk about. Oh good. So I think it's super, super interesting and there's been, when we dive into it, I'll say my favorite line that you always say that just unlocked the excuse sometimes we use for when we have writer's block. Michael Jamin: I'm curious to know what your favorite line is. Kevin Lewandowski: Alright, I have so many Michael Jainism that I think my all time favorite is Shit Happening is not a story. Michael Jamin: By the way, we have that on merch now, guys. Yeah, we do. We got merch and you can go get it@michaeljamin.com/merch where all the crazy things that I say, you can get it on a on mug or a notebook or whatever. We got merge. Go get it. I should have plugged it before, but I forgot. But anyway, these questions came from our last webinar that we did and if you're not on my webinar list, sign up for it's free. Go to michael jamin.com/webinar and you can sign up. You can be invited when we do our next one. And so yeah, Kevin, we had a lot of questions people asked. We didn't have time to get all the questions answered and so here they are n Kevin Lewandowski: Here we go. These first couple of questions are going to be about kind of course related stuff. So this first one is from David Zilo. I feel like we see his name a lot. I feel like he comes to these webinars a lot and ask a lot of questions. The question is, how does the story structure change when say a character does not, cannot achieve a goal in the tragic story, for example, Michael Jamin: Doesn't change at all. It's the same old story structure that we use. Whether the character achieves their goal at the end or not, it's the same damn thing. Kevin Lewandowski: Yep. Michael Jamin: The guys you're just asking, he's just asking at the end, what if the last two minutes are different, so what? Nothing. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, I think it's always more interesting for me when that character doesn't achieve their goal. I think the breakup with, but yeah, Vince v and Jennifer Ston, they don't stay together in the end. No. It's one of the few rom-coms that I think they decide to go off the beaten path and not have Michael Jamin: Them end often. We call this the joyful defeat in a movie or the character doesn't get what they want, but they get what they need. Yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: Next question, Rob. Robert, when is the latest the stakes should be made clear? Michael Jamin: The sooner the better because the story does not start until the audience knows what's at stake. And so until then you're boring them and you're daring them to change the channel or read another script or do something else with their time. So the sooner the better, and that's a note you'll get from a network executive. They'll always say, can we start the story sooner? And so wherever you have it, they'll give you that note. If it's on page four, they'll say page two. Kevin Lewandowski: In your experience, is there a realistic, for instance, if they were like, oh, it's on page three, we need it on page two, have you ever run into We just can't. We need a little bit of room to be able to Michael Jamin: Set Kevin Lewandowski: Something Michael Jamin: Up. Absolutely. And so you'll move it up a little bit, but sometimes there's only so much you can do. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. But yeah, like you said, they'll always say, oh, can we start this sooner? Yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Coley Marie, can the goal change or appear to change? Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yes. And often it sometimes will. It's like because something happens and what the character thought they wanted is not what they want anymore. So yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: So how do you feel about, because sometimes it's, is there a fear of if you start writing it too much of a change, can it almost feel like, oh, okay, now we're following a different story to, Michael Jamin: It usually happens kind of like an act top of act three with the character discoveries. This thing that I wanted turns out I don't really want any. I got what I thought I wanted and it's not what I want. So that's usually late in the script. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. So you're saying in top of act two, if they wanted to, Michael Jamin: It wouldn't be top of Kevin Lewandowski: Act ride a pony at the end of act one. Top of Act two should be like, well, I want to win this prize at the Carnival Michael Jamin: Now. Yeah, top of act two is one. Well, this is what we teach in the course. What tab of Act two would be, so yeah, Kevin Lewandowski: Arius Kennedy. So should we avoid high stakes conflicts? Michael Jamin: No. The higher stakes are good. High stakes are good. Higher the stakes are better. You want to avoid low stakes conflicts. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, low stakes conflicts are not that interesting. Heather Marie, vital, how do we find conflicts for TV shows with main characters without getting stale? That's kind of the job of a writer. Michael Jamin: Yeah, that's right. That's exactly, that's the job without getting stale, it's like, and again, this is not her concern. Concern. Your concern is to do it once and then let's a showrunner worried about it getting stale. Right now your job is to write one great script Kevin Lewandowski: Are Barry, when it comes to an episodic show, there's the overall show conflict and then the mini conflicts of the episodes. So I'm assuming they're talking about, there's the A story, the B story, the C story, Michael Jamin: Or maybe they're talking about the overall arch of the show. I'm watching Show Gun right now and I'm only on episode one, so it seems like the overarching stories, how is this one? I dunno if he called the futile Lord going to maintain his position in the kingdom, but within each episode he has a challenge that he has to overcome, so to make that larger prop goal happen. Kevin Lewandowski: Meg Parker Wilson, when you are writing a TV show, do you plot out the entire story pilot to finale and then create all those moments episode by episode in terms of the arc and the structure? Michael Jamin: No, it's too much work. It's too difficult. What you really, and again, this is not something that she needs to worry about, but maybe she's just asking me out of curiosity, we'll come up with a pilot and we'll have that pilot broken. We know what that story is going to be and then we have a vague idea of what season one might be. But I'm talking vague, just enough to bullshit our way through this because it'll change when we're breaking the story. As we discover writing and digging into the character, we'll discover something that might be better. So what are we going to do? Not do it just because we said we were talking out of our ass that this other thing was going to be better, Kevin Lewandowski: Right? Yeah. I think Vince Gilian, creator of Breaking Bad, I think he says something very similar. Yeah, we kind of have an idea, but part of going through different story ideas is you discover stuff along the way. Jesse Pinkman was only supposed to be four or five episodes, and then now they realize how much chemistry those two characters had. And could you imagine, would that show have worked if they would've killed off Jesse Pinkman? Because they said, well, we said our pitch, we have to kill em off after five episodes. We have to stick with that. Michael Jamin: I'm always surprised that people don't know that and they're worried about breaking the entire series. It's like, but breaking one episode of television when I'm talking breaking, figuring out what the story is and writing the outline in the script is so much work. How could you possibly do all that in advance and you have a team of writers doing all that work. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes you'll see people that'll talk about, yeah, I have this TV series I wrote and I have the first eight episodes done, and I'm like, oh, that's a lot to do with Michael Jamin: No they Kevin Lewandowski: Don't. One person, Michael Jamin: They really don't. They might have enough for one episode and they broke it up into eight episodes. They don't know any better. That's very common. I think Kevin Lewandowski: I remember there's another example on friends that one of the writers was talking about. It's probably one of the more iconic moments of the whole series is when Ross is getting married to Emily and Rachel shows up and he ends up, he accidentally says Rachel's name, I Ross take the Rachel. And the writer was saying that wasn't anything we would've ever thought of. It was one day we were rehearsing or something like that. And he accidentally said the wrong name. And as writers, we all laughed and we thought that's super funny. He was like, we had the aha moment of like, oh, we need to include this. And that little moment had so much of a change for the rest of the series. Now it turned into, well, Emily will make them now. Okay. It's clear that Ross is still in love with Rachel and Emily. She's only going to come to New York if Ross stops talking to Rachel. So it was just that little moment of discovery and what would that scene or storyline have been if Ross married Emily Michael Jamin: And they discovered that by accident and rehearsal and what are you going to do not do with this and that, that moment everyone gasped in the audience and people at home gasped. So what you not going to do it? Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, and I don't think in their pitch they're like, okay, season five we're going to have Ross marry this British girl, but when he is actually up there, we're going to have him say Rachel's thing. It was just discovery. Michael Jamin: You don't think that far in advanced. You can't. It's too much work. Kevin Lewandowski: Let's see. So this next question from Sarah, there's a bit of terminology from your course, so I'm going to not use that terminology, but does the end of act two have to be in direct relation to the conflict with the introduced in the first act? Can it be attributed to a different relationship conflict? Michael Jamin: No, no, no. Pretty much no. If you're telling one story that's your A story or your act two break to be on the A story. If it's coming out of nowhere and it's like, what's this? It's not going to feel earned. It's going to be like, what's going on? Kevin Lewandowski: Rob, Robert again, how do we make funny? Because it can be so subjective. Michael Jamin: Yeah. One thing I say is in my course, I can't teach you how to be funny. I can maybe teach you how to be a little funnier. I could give you tips that will help you be a little funnier, but if you're not funny, I can't help you be funny. It's okay. You can write drama. There's plenty of work for drama writers and just write what you're really good at. But it is a little heartbreaking. I see sometimes when people, I want to be accommodator, but you're not funny, so you don't have that in you. That's okay. Write some other stuff. Drama's great too. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. One of my other favorite things you say, and this wasn't the one I was talking about earlier, is you have to find new ways to say old things in a funny way. Yeah. Every version of a joke has been told to a degree. So how do you make it relevant to today and your story and your characters and make it so it hasn't been heard that way before. Michael Jamin: You know what though? I just got an email from, I don't know how I'm on this list, whatever. I got an email from a writer and she's doing a public appearance and she said, come see me the headline, come see me. I don't bite. And I'm like, oh God, you're supposed to be a writer. Don't tell me you don't bite. That's so unoriginal. That's so clammy. That's not something a writer should ever say. Find a new way to say, I don't bite. I was so unimpressed. I was like, oh God, you just embarrass yourself. Don't do that. You're a writer. You have to find a new way to say old things. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. Okay, so these are kind of more craft related questions, Nathan Shapiro, what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side. What is something you wish you had known when you were starting out? And then part two, which I think this is actually part three, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal? Or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey? Michael Jamin: This guy's got Kevin Lewandowski: Questions. We'll split this up. So the first part was what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side. Michael Jamin: I mean, a rookie mistake in the writer's room is what we call when they bitch instead of pitch. The expression is pitch, don't bitch. So it's very easy for a new writer to shoot down an idea in the room without having a better one because it's hard to come up with a better one. So that's a rookie thing. I don't care if the idea on the table is bad, if you don't have a better one, shut up because it's what are you there for? You're not a critic. Your job is to make it better, not to say this is bad. And Kevin Lewandowski: Also don't defend your joke if the showrunner doesn't think it's good. If you put something, they're like, ah, I don't really know. Okay, that's it. Michael Jamin: Don't Kevin Lewandowski: Fight for it. Don't just let it go. Think of a better one. Michael Jamin: What was the other question? Kevin Lewandowski: So the next one is, what is something you wish you had known when you were starting up? Michael Jamin: Well, to be honest, everything that I teach in the course, I didn't know any of it. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, I think it's just, yeah, I mean, again, Michael's course has unlocked a lot for me and someone that's not a very intelligent person, he really simplifies it. Michael Jamin: Yeah, make it easy. Kevin Lewandowski: It's easy to understand. I don't understand the terminology of progressive complications and sight incidents, all that stuff. I Michael Jamin: Don't understand it either. Kevin Lewandowski: Any sense to me? I won't tell you what the terms are that Michael uses. You'll have to take this course, but they're much easier to Michael Jamin: Understand. Yeah, I think writing should be simple. It's not easy, but it's simple. Kevin Lewandowski: And then the last part of this question, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal, or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey? Michael Jamin: Well, often they are an obstacle in the main hero's journey. Sometimes if you don't give 'em too much to play, they can be the Greek chorus, but generally every character in a scene has to have an attitude on something, and if they don't wire in the scene, if they don't have, they're not just there to stand around. Yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: So do you also think when in the context of the story structure that you teach in your class, those B stories that aren't necessarily as emotionally empowering as what the A story is, do you think it should still follow all those structure points or just enough or doesn't really matter? Michael Jamin: No, a b story doesn't carry the same emotional weight as the A story. So it doesn't actually have to carry, it doesn't have to be structured the way an A story is, but stuff does have to happen and it can't be random. It has to be on that story that we're following. Kevin Lewandowski: Okay. Next question. If it's an ensemble cast, like Orange is a new black or stranger things, does each character have to have a stake or only a main character? So very similar to this Michael Jamin: Question. Yeah, usually you're following. I mean, I haven't watched Stranger Things in a long time. Maybe they have two or three running storylines in each episode. I don't know. They probably do. Kevin Lewandowski: Who is the hero in horror movies like Friday the 13th? Is it Jason or the person who survives at the end? Michael Jamin: Well, you're not rooting for Jason. You're not rooting for him to murder everybody. And again, I haven't seen those Friday the 13th movies, but you're rooting for the person in the summer camp. Kevin Lewandowski: Michael. Is there such thing as an anti-hero? Michael Jamin: Yeah, of course there is, and I talk about that, but the problem is I think it's unnecessarily complicated. What's interesting, an anti-hero and a hero. Why don't you just call it a hero and make it easier on yourself? Oh, because your anti-hero is a little bit unlikeable or a little bit dirty or villainous. Well, that's okay. There's still a hero. Kevin Lewandowski: I think there was an example you used of if you're writing something about the devil, him being what we all think the devil is, that's not interesting. You make him where he has compassion with some things and you give him layers like Sopranos. You talk about the example as well, and I think it's those villains are, they're the hero in their own story. We may not agree with it. They're the hero in their own story though. Yeah, Michael Jamin: I think Tony Swan, I don't think he's an anti-hero. I think he's a hero. Kevin Lewandowski: Okay, next question. Do you have to know the end when you start the story? Can it change? Michael Jamin: And often it does. You'll get often it does. Often it does, but usually when we're breaking a story on the board in the writer's room, no one sent off to outline or script until we know what the ending is. But it's not uncommon to get a draft back and you go, you know what? This ending isn't working. Let's figure out a new Act three. Kevin Lewandowski: And in your experience, do you think for something like the ending doesn't feel right, do you think that was potentially because it wasn't broken in the best way? Or do you think the writer didn't maybe necessarily deliver the dialogue the right way? Michael Jamin: Well, often problems in act three requires solutions in Act one. So in other words, it wasn't set up right. The ending wasn't set up early, and so it's unusual to say, okay, all we have to do is fix Act three. No, you got to fix all of it. Kevin Lewandowski: And that's when you have the really late nights and you do dinner in the writer's room, which everyone hates when that PA comes around is All right. What does everyone want for dinner? Michael Jamin: Yep. Michael Jamin: You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and carcass Review says Those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show Kevin Lewandowski: From Rachel. It helps to do homework before even writing. Yes. If you're new to fantasy, read some fantasy scripts or books first. Michael Jamin: Sure, a lot as much as you can, but I'd also ask you why you want to write fantasy then, if you've never read any or what's attracting to you, to you if you don't even know anything about it. Kevin Lewandowski: Next question. What's with the job titles that writers end up with? What do the different kinds of jobs actually cover? Michael Jamin: So there's different levels to writers. They're just ranks and in terms of how much it's big pay grades basically. So the lowest level writer is called a staff writer. Even though everyone, it's confusing because every writer on staff is a staff writer, but the lowest level writer has the title of staff writer. Then the next higher up is called story editor, then executive story editor, then co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer, the executive producer's the showrunner, and so they're the boss and everyone else. They're just different levels that determines how much you're going to get paid. Often it determines how much responsibility you have. If the showrunner leaves the room, often it's the co-executive producer who will run the room in their proxy or they'll do the set, they'll work on the set, they'll do whatever that's based on their experience. But in terms of job responsibilities, other than that, it's really up to the S to determine how much they want. Maybe they'll say if someone's a producer, they may let them go to the set on their own. I mean, it just depends on the showrunner, what they want them to do. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. One of the shows I worked on, I think we talked about this in the last podcast, Steve Rudnick, who wrote Space Jam and Santa Claus movies. He was a supervising producer on The Muppets, and he spent a lot of time on set and he really liked it. It's just fascinating to watch how those puppeteers can Michael Jamin: Do Kevin Lewandowski: Their stuff. Next question from Steven. Can stream of consciousness work for screenwriting? Michael Jamin: Sounds terrible to me. I'm not a fan of stream of consciousness. I'm not really interested in reading your thoughts. If you're going to take me someplace, take me by the hand and lead me there. To be honest, just going to say it right now, I feel stream of consciousness is masturbatory. I feel like it's for yourself and no one else, but I could be. Someone else may enjoy it. Kevin Lewandowski: So when you say hold my hand, because I think there's also this, people sometimes assume, well, well, I don't want to put that on the page. It's just going to take a page. The audience will get, the audience will understand what I'm going for, and I think is there that fine line of figuring out, okay, what do I need to hold the hand of the audience through versus what do I think they're going to be able to pick up? Michael Jamin: Yeah. I like to write. When I'm writing, I like to check in with the audience, let 'em know. Yeah. When I say hold their hand, let them know. Remind them what's at stake here. This character wants, I'd like to just check. So it's not a mystery. Now, often that's the difference between sometimes you'll see a really smart writing, they won't kind of do that. They expect a little more of the audience. It just depends on what kind of show you're doing. If you're doing a broad silly show, you check in with the audience knowing that that's not what they're there for. They're there for something silly and fun. You got to keep checking in with them. But I just saw a zone of interest, which is really smart, and they didn't check in with the audience, and that might win. The Oscars a wonderful movie also. That's not a movie for the masses. I don't think it's going to be a movie that's a blockbuster. It was a great movie though. Kevin Lewandowski: What are the stakes of 2001 a Space Odyssey? Michael Jamin: God, I haven't seen it in forever. What were the stakes was the guy I am trying to remember. They went on a spaceship. They had a mission, but then the computer was sabotaging the mission and there was going to basically, I think the computer was going to kill them, basically take 'em on a mission that would kill them. Is that that I remember. So the stakes were life or death. Kevin Lewandowski: Those are pretty mistakes. Michael Jamin: And how do we defeat the computer? Who's the boss of the whole thing? How do we fool the computer? I believe that's what it was, right? It was a long time ago. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen that, and I guess if they don't, they die. Michael Jamin: I think so, yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: Next question. How would you recommend doing a man versus a system conflict, like perhaps is seen in Cool Hand Luke? Michael Jamin: Well, I mean, yeah, that was the whole thing. He wanted to get out of prison. They were trying to, and again, I haven't seen that in 10, 12 years. I don't remember. He was in prison and the system was trying to break him down. Right? That's like anything you escape from Alcatraz to the same thing. How do we get out of this prison? So yeah, but I'm trying to remember in Cool Luke, there was probably a face to the system. It wasn't like a system. I'm guessing it there was a warden or something, or there were other inmates who was the face of the system trying to remember. They called me off guard. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. So I was thinking about when you said I was Shawshank Redemption, and I think it's, yeah, there's the system, but then kind of the warden represents the system. In that context, Michael Jamin: There was the warden and then the warden's proxy, the guard, and there were definitely, it wasn't so much the system. They were faces of the system. Yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: Okay. Can the conflict be hidden from the hero? The hero thinks they want control money, but they really don't want to be alone because they were abandoned as a kid. Michael Jamin: Well, I mean, all of that is fine, but your hero is not going to want a hero. Wanting money is not a reputable goal. Who cares? So what your hero wants it sounds like, is companionship. If they're abandoned or or whatever. That's what they're really wanting. So yeah, I mean, all of that is fine, but I'm not sure why it's not hidden for the, yeah, Kevin Lewandowski: I think thinking about breaking bad, I think a lot of people would think, well, Walter White wanted money. No, that's Michael Jamin: Not what he wanted. Walter White wanted to provide for his family. He was going to be dead soon, so it wasn't the money he wanted. What he wanted was very reputable. He wants to give his family something so they could live when he's dead to, because he can't provide for them. So it wasn't like he wanted a new Ferrari, Kevin Lewandowski: And I think that slightly eventually morphed into he just wants to maintain being powerful. Michael Jamin: Well, then it turned into something else. Then he went down this path of it was about power and control, and he went down that, but that was only seasons into it. Kevin Lewandowski: AI and equalizer for skill and creativity in this competitive era of artists? Michael Jamin: I don't think so. I think ai, I guess it's a cheat code if you want to be a writer, if you wanted to be a race car driver, you'd learn how to race, car drive, and you'd go to courses and classes and you'd be really good at shifting and all that stuff and understand the apex of a curve and how to attack a curve. Or I suppose you could get behind the wheel of a Tesla and put it on autopilot and you could just fall asleep. But why do you want to be a race car driver then if that's what you aspire to do? Do you just want to be a dummy in the wheel of the car? Kevin Lewandowski: I think one of the other things you always say too is AI may never be able to write true human emotion and never be able to really write what my personal stories have been my life. And I think until it can do that, I think we're fine. Michael Jamin: Yeah, we'll see. They're doing some, I guess, crazy amazing things, and I don't know. We'll see. But I'm not sure. I don't know why you or any other aspiring writer would want that. I would think you would want to root against that. Kevin Lewandowski: Oh yeah. Michael Jamin: I think, don't you want to write stories? Don't you want to be the author of the stories, don't you? Isn't that why you want to be a writer, to take what's inside of you and express it in a way that entertains people? Or do you want to be just the person who plugs the computer in the morning and say You're a writer? Kevin Lewandowski: And I think about the writer strike we all went through, and that was a huge topic of conversation, and writers took a sacrifice to stop this from happening to help protect writers that are going to be coming up. And I think it's probably going to be an ongoing battle for a while. Michael Jamin: Yeah, the world's changing fast. Yeah. Scary. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. Too fast. Michael Jamin: Yeah, too fast. Kevin Lewandowski: Is it possible to have two showrunners attached to one project, the creator of the show, and one more experienced showrunner? Michael Jamin: No. I mean, they're not going to be equal. I mean, I suppose anything's possible, but it's very unlikely. I've been on shows where someone, a younger writer created it and then they assigned a showrunner. And the showrunner on that one show, the showrunner was very gracious, and he included this young writer and a lot of the decisions, and it wasn't like he made it a partnership as best as he could, but at the end of the day, he was still the boss. Someone has to be the boss, but he was very gracious about how he treated this young writer and he really wanted to mentor him. But again, when you're a mentor, that means more than the other person. Kevin Lewandowski: And you and Seaver have run shows together, right? Michael Jamin: Yeah. But we're a partnership, so that's a little different. But this person is talking about one person created another one. Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freaking hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what you don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a showrunner. This is a hard job. I don't know how to do it. And then you get to the point in your career where it's like, it's either that or unemployment. So I'm like, all right, sign me up for showrunner. Kevin Lewandowski: What, even with that, the rooms I've been in, you just see how many meetings that the showrunners have to be in that aren't necessarily directly related to the writing and the story. It's costume stuff, it's hair and makeup stuff. It's set pieces. It's all these different things that they have the final, final approval on and Michael Jamin: And that's the easy part, all that stuff Kevin Lewandowski: Breaking in. Any advice for being hired in a writer's room without coming up with an original show idea? Or do you have to bring an original idea to an interview? Michael Jamin: No, you don't have to. You can write a script on an existing show. You can write a great Game of Thrones spec script, and as long as the showrunner wants to read it and thinks it's great, you're hired. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. Do you think in today's world, from what I've heard, spec scripts sort of aren't really a thing anymore. Do you think a lot of that has to do with just because there's so much out there that if I'm like, here, Michael, here's a specs on whatever show, there's a real chance that I've never heard of the show. Michael Jamin: Yes, that's exactly, and that's why, that's why I think it's unfair. I mean, life is unfair, but that's why I think it's harder today than it was back when I was breaking in. Because you could write a spec sip on an existing show on er, and everyone knew what ER was. Yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: It's interesting too, because then I've heard you say this too before, if you're running whatever show and it's in season two or season three, and you're interviewing me and you read my original pilot, you're more like, well, this is great, but I want to know, can you write my show? That's what I want you for. Your original pilot is cool, has nothing to do with my show. I want to know. Can you write my show? Do you have the character's personalities down? Michael Jamin: And it's harder to create an original show, a pilot. It's much harder, I feel, than creating a spec script of an existing show. That's the days we live in. What are we going to do? Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, I think that might've been all of our questions for right now, but I did want to say, so the one thing I always take away when we talk about this is when writers overcome writer's block, something you always say is Writer's block isn't really a thing for professional writers. You don't get to say, I'm going to go to the beach for three days and clear my head. And if you're really struggling with the writer's block, chances are you don't necessarily have the structure down to a point. And that'll help unlock a lot of problems for you. And that's what Michael scor teaches is those structure points and what you need to know. And I think there's little instances of writer's block where if I'm just kind of like I'm a little frustrated, go for a walk for 15, 20 minutes, and I live by a mall here in Glendale, and it wasn't too long ago, I remember I was walking and I was just thinking about something. I saw these two people, and it looked like it was a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and she had her Starbucks, and she was taking a picture of it, and someone bumped into her and she dropped it everywhere. And I just happened to see this interaction. And the guy, his reaction was kind of like, well, and I thought that was so fascinating because I was like, okay, what's the relationship between these two people? Because this is definitely not a first date. Because if it was a first date, he'd be like, oh my gosh, let me go get you a new one. And so then I was like, okay, so have they been dating for a while? Okay, then it's like, okay, well, if that was his reaction, has this happened so many times? He's just sick of her shit, always posting it to Instagram. He's like, I told you this was going to happen. And then I start kind of building this story in my head of what if this is her moment where she's like, I'm going to break up with you. This is bullshit. You're laughing at something bad. That happened to me. And I remember coming back to my apartment that day, and I felt like more just relaxed and calm. I saw this live event unfold that I don't think anyone else was watching, but I just happened to see this unfold. And I don't think that was anything I could have really written. I think I would've wrote like, oh, she drops it. He picks it up. He wants to impress her because he wants to get laid later. But his reaction was like, yeah, I told him this shit happens all the time. Stop taking pictures. Just drink the damn coffee. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it's good. You're observing. That's what you should be doing. Kevin Lewandowski: It's good. When I worked at a theme park, Get a lot of material there from people, a lot of different personalities, I used to jot down a lot of stuff I used to see and just how people would interact. And it's nice to, when you kind of feel those moments of writing and you're kind of stuck, go back to those notes you took in that can help unlock something. I know you always show on your webinars, you have your black notebook that you've been carrying around your entire career and things people have taught you along the way, and you write 'em down in there. And that's just, that's gold right there. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Write it down. Keep a list of your, like what you're saying. Those specific things are just interesting. Kevin Lewandowski: And because you always say too, when you're driving, you don't really listen to the radio or anything. You just kind of talk with notes on your phone just to get it out there and start thinking about it. And Michael Jamin: Yeah, if I'm working on a story, I won't listen to the radio. I'll just obsess over this one moment I'm trying to fix in the story. And if I get it, great. Now, that was my writing for that morning was fixing that one problem. Yeah. Kevin Lewandowski: Well, I think that is all we have question wise, Michael. We Michael Jamin: Did Kevin Lewandowski: It. We did it. Michael Jamin: We did it. Thank you everyone. What else do we got to talk about? If you want to come to our free screenwriting webinars, you could sign up at michael jamin.com/webinar if you'd like to. I got a newsletter. Get on that Michael jamin.com/newsletter. And of course, we're unplugging my book, which I worked on for four and a half years. It's called the Paper Orchestra, and it asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? And someone asked me on the live, if I could explain it a little better what it is. And I think what the book, one way to explain it is imagine they're very personal and intimate stories, and I'm sharing them as if, imagine me reading my diary, but performing it out loud knowing that you are going to be watching it. And so I'm going to say it in a way that's going to be entertain you, but it's still my diary. But it's structured in a way, so it's like, I know I have an audience here. And so that's kind of what it is. They're stories, they're true stories, but hopefully they're told in a way that is engaging and makes you laugh and hopefully makes you feel something. It's more importantly. Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah. Yeah. So go to michael jamin.com, check out his book. There's a bunch of, just go to his website, michael jamin.com, click around. There's webinars, there's the podcast. Get uploaded there. There's a couple of free lessons you can download, scripts he's written. There's so much there. And like he said, that you can get his book there and you can get a signed copy from him on his website. And it's Amazon. It was when you originally launched it, it was number one in five different categories on Amazon, so it was pretty wild. So yeah, check out the book, join the class, join our webinars, follow Michael on social media. He's still giving out free tips and trying to help people. And yeah, that's all I got. Michael Jamin: Excellent. Alright. Thank you Kevin. Great job. And if they want to follow you, Kevin, where do they follow you on social media? Kevin Lewandowski: Yeah, so it's Kevin Lewandowski. It's a long last name, I'm sure after you just type the first five letters, it'll pop up. Michael Jamin: Excellent. Alright everyone, until next week, keep writing. Michael Jamin: Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, we have actor Jamie Kaler (My Boys, Tacoma FD, Robot Chicken and many many more) and we talk about his career path as well as his experiences doing stand-up. There's so much more so make sure you tune in. Show Notes Jamie KalerIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0435695/ Jamie Kaler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Kaler Jamie Kaler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiekaler/?hl=en Jamie Kaler on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamiekaler A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/book A Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1 A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4 A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Jamie Kaler: He goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag. I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever because this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do with tv? I go, all, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. But Michael Jamin: You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about acting with my guest, Jamie Kaler. This guy, before I bring him on this guy's credits are crazy. He works a lot and so I'm going to blow, yeah, blow through. I'm going to do the abridge version. If not, we'll be here all day, but I'm going to go way back. I'm on IM db now. I'm only doing the ones that I decide are highlights. But Jag, he's been on Fringe Friends. Suddenly. Susan Carnival, third Rock in the Sun, king of Queens, grounded for Life, married to the Kelly's Arrested Development, Spanglish, seventies show. What else Will and Grace, the Family Stone? Who remembers that? Monk New Adventures of Old Christine Sons and Daughters. How I Met Your mother, my boys. We know 'em from that. And then did I say Parenthood? Did I say shake it up? Did I say Austin and Allie? Did I say Teachers of the Year? I don't remember. I'm skipping crazy Ex-girlfriend. Jesus, dude. It doesn't end the middle Dads in Parks. Oh, we'll talk about that. Heather's robot Chicken. American Housewife. Most recently Taco fd where my partner and I created the character of Polanski. Jamie, that was exhausting. Are we done with the interview now? Jamie Kaler: Honestly, it was so much fun being here, man. All right, everybody, take care. See you later. Michael Jamin: That was such good advice. Sorry, you guys all missed it. Dude, you've been around. How did you get into acting? How does someone get into acting? By the way, Jamie Kaler: People ask me nowadays, and I go, dude, it's nothing. I mean now it's like don't even move to la just start a YouTube channel in upstate Minnesota and try to blow up. And then once you have a following, then you're set. Michael Jamin: But we were talking about on your podcast, the parent lounge, but I know you think it's like a burden, but I think it actually works in your advantage to you, to your advantage because you're really good at it. You're good. You have a great social media presence. You're quick on your feet. It seems to me this, even though it requires more work for you, it actually works in your favor. No, Jamie Kaler: You mean social media doing it this way? Yeah, of course it is, but I already did it. So now I'm kind of the same way that I used to go buy wigs and glue on mustaches and actually lit myself on fire on stage at Acme Comedy Theater when I was doing crazy shows on Friday and Saturday nights in the nineties with that fervor of what are we doing today? We're going to Goodwill, we're going to get some costumes, here we go. And I remember renting equipment, trying to shoot shorts and trying to clerks, and Ed Burns had made the brothers McMullan or whatever, and it was like, come on, we're making film. It was super hard and it was painful and it was costly. And nowadays you can do it with your phone. But I'm older, I don't quite have the drive. I also am watching two little kids. So the time in the day is where I used to go, this is my day. I'm going to go do this now. I'm like, I dropped the kids at school. I had to go to the cleaners. I taking care of the two kids. I got to pick them up. I'm coaching soccer today. So yes, I will say though, especially watching you and you're a writer, but now you have to become a social media guru to get people to see what you've created and you're an artist. But nowadays, gosh, I was posting something this morning about the pregnant pause is gone pretty soon. Humans are going to evolve where the eyes instead of side by side are over the top of each other because horizontal's over everything's vertical. We need to flip our eyes. And years from now, no one will take a breath because we've dictated that. The breath makes people lose attention though. You can take a pause. People go Michael Jamin: Done. I Jamie Kaler: Can't. He took a breath. I can't. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. So I just had this conversation yesterday. I dropped an audio audiobook, and so some woman said I was doing a live, she goes, oh, I bought your audiobook. I love it, but I listened to it on one and a quarter speed. But I'm like, but when I take a pause, it's because I want to put a pause there. I want to give you a moment to soak it in. It's not arbitrary. Jamie Kaler: I wanted to take a Richard Pryor act from his comedy special and cut all the air out of it. And so you would take a 50 minute, one hour special where there's a groove. He's in the moment. It would be like if you took Buddy Rich and you took all the space between the drum beats out. You're like, a lot of the art is in the space, and we have forgotten that. And now it's like it's a machine gun or people's brains shut off. Michael Jamin: This is something when we're shooting a sitcom, often, we'll tell the actor, make sure you hold for a laugh here. Hold for the laugh. You will get one. Yeah. What do we do about this? Jamie Kaler: Well, I don't know because I was watching, have you watched Show Gun? Michael Jamin: No. Am I supposed to watch that? Jamie Kaler: It's new. It's based on the book. Oh my gosh, it's glorious. I had never read the book. 16 hundreds. Futile Japan, A simple, brutal, vicious life of it's gorgeous. They had a full society. It's like the 16 hundreds. Wait, Michael Jamin: Where am I watching this? What can I get? Jamie Kaler: It's on FX and on Hulu and Portuguese and Portugal and England are the two powerhouses on the earth, and they are at war, and they're basically fighting for ownership of the east, even though the east are, they're like, wait, we're here. No one's going to own us. So it's all about that, but it's just this beautifully, I mean, it's like art. It's like going to the museum, seeing this story unfold, but people's brains nowadays, some do just riddling. 30 seconds of garbage on TikTok will get a gillion times more views than that. Because I talked to somebody who said, Hey, have you seen Shogun? Someone's like, oh, it just seems slow. And I was like, it's one of the greatest stories of all time. It's one of the bestselling books of all time. It's history and gorgeous and art, and it's beautifully shot. And they're like, ah, boring. I don't have time for that crap. Michael Jamin: We have, right? So what do we do Jamie Kaler: If everything accelerates? There has to be a point where the human brain, it's like when they go, oh, this TV's 4K, and you're like, dude, I'm in my fifties. I can't even see 5K. I can't see any K anymore. It's like so resolution. It doesn't really matter. At some point your brain can't accept Michael Jamin: It. Well, worse than that, so my TVs, I have a nice plasma plasma, but it's probably 15 years old at a cost a fortune when I got it. But the new ones, the resolution's so clear, it kind of looks like you're watching a bad TV show. You know what I'm saying? You watch a expensive movie and it looks like it's bad TV because I'm seeing too much. Jamie Kaler: The human face is not supposed to be seen with that much resolution. You see people and you're like, oh, that dude had a rough night Michael Jamin: Where you Jamie Kaler: Used to be able to hide it, and now you're like, no, no, no, no. Michael Jamin: Right? But then now have you had these conversations with your agent and your managers, or is this just when we were talking about building your social media following, are they telling you this or are you just like, your friends are doing it now? I got to do it too. Jamie Kaler: You mean why try to build this? Well, it's also, listen, it's funny because my wife will give me grief sometimes, and she goes, your stories are too slow. Which is crazy because I'm one of the fastest speakers who's ever lived. Sometimes when I'm working, people go, you need to bring it down a little bit. But on social media, if I don't want to sit and take a 92nd video and edit it down to a minute to take out the 30 seconds of pauses, because some guy, but that's the dilemma. Everything's the lowest common denominator. The jokes are I see something that blows up and I go, that was a great joke when George Carlin told that in 1972, and it was really well written and scripted, and now you've kind of bastardized it and you've put it into a ten second with no, your speaking voice is intolerable. But I get it, that's what people want. They're scrolling through and you're like, that's how it works. So I'm also a dinosaur man. It's like my daughters are 10 and they're already do flying through stuff. I mean, I don't know how to stop it. Michael Jamin: Do you know people, I mean, obviously back in the day when you'd go to auditions now everything's you submit. But back in the day, I'm sure you were going to audition and they're the same 10 actors that you would see trying out for the same part. Do you think they're doing the same thing that you're doing building of social media presence? Jamie Kaler: Well, I think you have to. Nowadays, honestly, I see that the social media presence, it is number one, you don't have to go learn how to act. You don't have to learn how to be a standup comic. You don't have to learn these skills and slowly build your way up the top. You do it because you're a personality. People are intrigued, not by people who are, they're intrigued by humans. It's a voyeuristic thing, I think, where people are like, you'll see somebody and they're just talking to camera. They're not even good speakers. There's something off. There's a crazy story. And maybe they've just been doing it for 15 straight years and built up a following and put some money behind it, put some ads, made sure they got some clicks. Maybe they bought a few followers, and you're like, but the craft, the art of what you do as a writer. I mean, is it slowly falling? But that's the problem nowadays with my kids, we just got the report cards and really good grades, but you can see on the standardized test, they're reading is starting to slip because kids don't read. It's too slow for them. Their brain is like, well, they just can't slow. People cannot slow down anymore. And it's Where does it go Michael Jamin: From here? I dunno, but I have to say that. So a lot of this is, I don't think this is coming from producers. I was on a show a few years ago, maybe let's say 10 years ago, and the studio or the network rather wanted us to cast a guy with a big social media following for this role. And I'm like, wait, really? Why? What about an act? Can we just get an actor? This Hollywood? Aren't there actors everywhere? And it's because networks are having a hard time marketing their show. And these people with followings, they can market their own show. Jamie Kaler: Kevin Hart. I mean, I remember something. They were like, well, you're going to post about the movie. And he's like, if you pay me, and they were like, why would we pay you? You're in the movie. He goes, yeah, you paid me for my acting services now you want me to be your publicist. If you want me to publicize this film, you will pay me for it because I accumulated these 50 million followers on my own. Why would I just give it to you? Michael Jamin: But here's where I'm curious about that though. I'm not sure if he doesn't post, I get his point, why should I do the marketing as well? But if he doesn't do the marketing, it'll hurt him for his next movie because it won't perform as well in the box office. You know what I'm saying? Jamie Kaler: Yes. It's a double-edged sword. But I also think he doesn't care. Michael Jamin: He Jamie Kaler: Doesn't care. He doesn't care because he has that following. He will, and they'll put it into the budget. I'm sure the agents and managers are like, all right, so this is his money that you're going to pay him. This is part of the marketing fee you're going to. And listen, I totally understand it. I'm sure I've lost parts because people have gone over to go, his following is not as big as this guy. At the end of the day, could a ton of other people played Polanski? Absolutely. Would they have huge followings? Yes, of course. So I feel lucky anytime I get a job to promote it, I feel like I'm qualified for that job. But I also know it's, you look back at the history of film and Philip Seymour Hoffman died, the five projects he had ready to go, they just replaced him. He's arguably one of the greatest actors of our generation. Nobody missed a beat. So are we all replaceable? Absolutely. Are we lucky to be in the business? Yeah. I mean, I would argue writers are more necessary because you're creating the project to start with. But as an actor, unless you're Daniel Day Lewis or somebody who's that crazy of a craft, then it's about chemistry, I think. Anyway. But you have to, those people are trying to get their films out, and so there's so much white noise on a daily basis that to cut through that, they're like, well, if this guy has 5 million followers and he puts up one post, what they don't see is that only 3% of those 5 million people even see. But this Michael Jamin: Is where I think the studios and the networks have really screwed up royally, is that they haven't figured out a way to build their own brand. So my wife and I will watch a movie or a TV show, we'll get halfway through it and all the night, we'll say, let's watch the rest tomorrow. Almost all the time. I forget where I watched it, and now I have to search, was it on Netflix? Did I watch it on Amazon? Where did I watch this? Because there's no brand anymore without a brand. They can't market their shows. They have to rely on other me and you to market their shows. It puts us in the driver's seat, not them. This is like a major blunder on their parts, I feel. Jamie Kaler: It's not just them. I'd say standup clubs, back in the day, you did a bunch of shows. You finally put a tape together, you sent it to a club. The club had a following, the club had the following. And you knew if you went to that club, you were going to see Richard, Jenny, Brian Regan, Jerry Seinfeld, you knew these guys. Whatever show you went to, you were going to be surprised, but you'd be like, man, those guys are really funny. Nowadays, the club is literally a rental space that you bring the following to. That's why they book influencers who have millions of followers, and then they get on stage. And I guess some are good and some maybe don't have, it's a different skill level Michael Jamin: When you go, do you still perform comedy stand Jamie Kaler: Up? I do. I used to tour a ton before the kids, and I was on the road all the time. And then once the kids were born, I didn't really want to do that as much. So now I stay home. So I kind of cherry pick gigs to go out for. And the road's a lot different, I feel like, than it used to be. Michael Jamin: So do you feel the quality of the standups, they're not quite as good anymore? Some people are, would you sound like old men? Which one is it? Jamie Kaler: Absolutely. And I say that all the time. I'm a dinosaur. But I will say that maybe the skill nowadays is not being a standup comic, but being a social media manipulator. And I mean that it's always been the skill. People used to hire publicists even back then, and I never did. And they'd be in People Magazine and I'd be like, what's the point of all that? And then as I got older, I was like, oh, fame allows you to do the jobs you want to do. That's really the trick. But I mean, to be Tom Cruise, I never wanted that because that dude can't leave his house. He can't just go to the supermarket, can't go to a park. I never wanted that. But that makes him and DiCaprio, those are the guys that are Johnny Greenlight. They get the first choice of scripts. And so they are allowed to do these amazing jobs that because how many people do you think nowadays can sell a picture? Michael Jamin: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. Or can open, I don't know. Do you think it's more or less, I guess I would imagine it's probably less now. I mean, because celebrities changed. What do you think? Jamie Kaler: I think the era of the movie Star is over. I Michael Jamin: Think Tom Cruise Jamie Kaler: And Brad Pitt and DiCaprio, are they going to be the end of, and Damon are going to be the end of it? I mean, no. You see one of her on Netflix and it's like a TikTok, Charlie Delio. I haven't seen it. Maybe she's a wonderful actress. I don't know. But you go up through that ranks and all of a sudden you have 12 million followers or whatever, and then you could sell, I mean, it's Kardashian really was, we all gave her grief, but in retrospect, they were the smartest people in the room. They saw it coming to their credit and made a gillion dollars off of it, whether that's what you want to do with your life. But my kids kids want to start a YouTube page and a TikTok, and I'm like, she's 10. She's 10 years old. That's Michael Jamin: Too soon. Jamie Kaler: Yeah. I mean, can everyone on earth just be, can we keep an economy running if everyone's just an influencer? I don't know. Michael Jamin: Well, there's the big question, right? If everyone's trying to, yeah, I Jamie Kaler: Mean, look at what you're doing. You wrote a book, you sat down, probably took quite a while. It's a very good book. Thank you. I've read it and it's like, but the point is, almost everybody's wrote in a book now, and everybody's a standup comic and everyone's a performer. And back when I did it, it was like people were like, oh my God, you do standup. I'm would never do that. I'm terrified now. I'll be it like a supermarket. And some woman's like, some grandma's like, oh, I do stand up every Tuesday night at retirement home. And you're like, it's Michael Jamin: Not. But I also feel like you're reinventing yourself, though. I mean, that's got to be exciting and interesting. No, or Jamie Kaler: Of course it is. Of course it is. I do listen. I love doing it. And everyone else, it's a love hate relationship because I'll think of something immediately, I'll put together a little funny bit that I, it's like a standup bit or something, and then I'll be able to share it with all my fans and they will respond accordingly. And you're like, oh yeah, this actually is a pretty good, I just also think we're the learning curve. We're the first generation to go through all this. Michael Jamin: Wait, let me tell you how I hoard myself out this morning. So I wondered, because I'm posting a lot to promote my book. I'm doing a lot of lives, and I'm like, I see other people do lives, and I'm not sure what that magic is. They're cooking eggs or whatever. Are we watching this person cooking eggs? Is this right? So I'm like, all right. I told my wife, today's pushup day. So I'm like, all right, I guess maybe I'll just do pushups and people will that work. And I did pushups on live and I don't know, 20 people watched. And I was like, I felt kind of stupid about the whole thing, but people were watching, I don't know, is this what I got to do now, Jamie Kaler: Pushups, I fear it is. If that's what you want to do for a living, I think this is, if you want to be in this business, I think that's the necessity of it. To be honest, I'm not sure I would've ever signed up for this if I knew, although when I was younger, I probably would've like, Ugh, I would've been Truman shown the whole Michael Jamin: Thing, right? But you wouldn't. Jamie Kaler: I do wonder, my kids, I think they were at their friend's house or something, and they Googled me. They told me, and they're getting to that age, and I'm like, uhoh, what did you watch? And they watched some crazy video I did where I said something stupid or whatever. And I don't know if every moment of our lives is supposed to be captured. I don't know what the answer is. I have such a love hate certain days. I wake up and I go, even this morning I was telling you I was writing a bit about something or other. And then another day I'll wake up and I go, I don't want to do any of it. I just want to go golf. And that was the beauty. I became an actor because it was the easiest thing. I worked hard to become a good actor. I took classes, worked on my craft, but I wasn't, I wasn't on 24 7 trying, Michael Jamin: Tell me if you feel this way, because if I don't, I try to post almost every day. And if I take one or two days off, that turns into three or four. You know what I'm saying? It gets easy not to do it. Jamie Kaler: Of course, of course. But do you feel guilty after those two or three days? Do you have any guilt or do you actually go, oh, what am I doing? This feels great. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it is mixed like you're saying, but a lot of it is like, this is my job. This is how you get a book out there. This is how you can, I work so hard not to work. You know what I'm saying? Jamie Kaler: I'm working harder now than I ever did when all those credits were being made. Yeah, I would bust my ass. I would get ready. And also acting is about physicality. I would make sure I was in shape. I'd work out, I'd do all this stuff, and then I would go either do an audition and then there'd be downtime, and you'd be like, all right. All right. And then you'd kind of ramp it up again. Now it's like just constant blinders on of, and then the problem also I see is the follow-up. When you performed on stage, you either got to laugh right then and there, and you moved on. But now my wife, we have long conversations on Instagram as well. Michael Jamin: What does she do? What does she do on Instagram? What does she, I don't even know what does, she Jamie Kaler: Works in the pharmaceutical industry. Michael Jamin: So why is she, oh, I think you told me. Why is she on Instagram? Oh, does she post on Instagram? Jamie Kaler: She posts, but she has her own page, and then so she's very specific about it. She'll edit and quiz me and I go, do you want to hear my, I don't care. Nobody cares. Just post it. But it's like, well, what do you think this picture or this? I go, nobody cares. What song do you think this song? Is this song saying too much about me? Or should I feel like maybe I should use it? Should it just be instrumental? I go, okay, I don't care. The trick is to post and walk away. And then people will, for the rest of the day, scroll, because it's the dopamine of like, oh, so-and-So ooh, did you know? So-and-So just like that post I put up this morning, I don't know where this ends, but I find that some days if I just do something physical where I'm digging in the garden in the backyard, it's the greatest three hours of my life where I'm like, I didn't think about anything. I don't know. I don't know where it ends, but yeah. But we're also too, get off my lawn old guys who are like, why? You might have kids, Michael Jamin: But how much time do you think you put on social media every day, either way that you're working on or thinking of working on it or whatever? Jamie Kaler: Well, so I wasn't really, I never cared. I never cared. It was just recently that I've started to make an effort during the pandemic kind of destroyed me. I stayed with two kids. I had a kindergartner and a second grader, and my wife was working 12 hours a day. We have an office in the house where she was gone. Oh, wow. We didn't see her for 12 hours a, and I think part of it, she was hiding because it was the pandemic. We also having construction done on the house, it was arguably the worst time in my life. So I was trying to maintain the kids. So I printed out schedules. I made them put their school uniforms on. I took two desks. I set them up on opposite ends of the house. They were doing it on Zoom, but one's in kindergarten and one's on second grade. So they weren't old enough to really go. I got it at nine 40. They'd be released for recess. I'd have to get them snacks at 1130. It was lunch at two 50. School ended, and then we were trying to maintain sanity. So I started this kind of parental mental health zoom at night. And obviously we were drinking extensively pandemic mental health, but drinking, it was mental health, and we were sipping hardcore and sharing horrible stories. And so it grew into this. I started this thing called the Dad Lands, and it just grew. It was just Zoom. It wasn't even a podcast or anything. And that kind of caught on. I mean, there were guys, I was like, dude, don't kill yourself. We're going to get through this thing guys. Were hanging on by a thread. And we made ourselves all feel better because we were seeing that everyone else was going through this nightmare. And that eventually grew into the Parents Lounge podcast with my other buddy who was in it. He was doing Dad Apocalypse. I was doing Dad Lands. We started a podcast. I'm not a promoter, so I really love doing the podcast. We were doing it live. You've come and done it. The parents lounge, it's super fun. It's a parental mental health night. I've kind of laid off the sauce since then, and all of a sudden it kind of grew into this thing, but we never marketed it. We would just throw it out there and then the other dude would put it up on iTunes, but we wouldn't even put a post of like, Hey, Dave Ners on this Monday. Nothing. Just threw it in the ocean, because I don't want to be a marketer. I didn't move to Hollywood to be a publicist. It's not what I do. So finally, we're at the crap or get off the pot phase of look, we have a pretty good following, considering we haven't put one ounce of work into the promotional part of it. And so finally, everyone's like, look, dude, you either have to become a promoter or you are wasting your time. You need to monetize. We could do some live gigs here and there, but all of a sudden ruffle came in, Justin ruffle was our partner in this thing. And all of a sudden everyone's like, all right, so I committed. I'm committing to trying like you with a book where I feel like we have a really great product. How do we get people to see it? And you're like, this is the way to do it. So we went out and I enjoy stuff like this where we have conversations and we get in depth on stuff. But as far as just constantly putting up a story with a link to the podcast to do this and stuff, well, Michael Jamin: That you can outsource, that's easy. We're Jamie Kaler: Outsourcing it. And so we finally started outsourcing it, and I hadn't outsourced it at all, but it's like I equate it to the Gold Rush. It's like the people who really got rich during the Gold Rush where Levi Strauss and Woolworth and the guys who sold the Pickaxes. So at some point, I should become the outsource guy or something. But yeah. Michael Jamin: Do you see, okay, what are your aspirations with the show? What would you like it to become, if anything? Jamie Kaler: So I love doing the show. I would love a strong following where we've kind of branched off to do other stuff. But honestly, live shows. We have done a few and we're starting to book more. And then to monetize it to a degree, once you start putting all the work into it, you're like, well, maybe we should at least see something. But the Michael Jamin: Live show, you have to produce, you got to bring in equipment mics, you've got to mix it. No, just Jamie Kaler: Literally as comics, we show up. I can't tell you the last time I soundcheck, oh Michael Jamin: Wait, wait, Jamie Kaler: We're doing the podcast live. You're talking about, but we do it as here's the beauty of what we do. We're already standups. That was a headline in comic touring the country. I did Montreal Comedy Festival. I've been on late night tv. So for me, that's the easy part. When I used to do standup, it was never about the show. It was more I would peek out and go, is anybody here? And the smartest guys on earth were s, Agora Rogan, Cher Joe, coy, who not only were great comics, but they were also really good at marketing themselves. And so those guys were doing mailing lists for 30 years and building, and I wasn't. I would go sets went great, crush it, and then go have a couple cocktails at the bar. I didn't have kids either. I didn't really care about trying to blow it up. So it was never about the show. It was about getting eyes on it. And I feel like that's where we're at now. We have such a strong, every time we go do it, we crush live. And the question is, how do we get other parents and people to go? This would be a great show to come to. That's really the marketing part of it. Michael Jamin: The tour as Right? Is it all, so it's improv or is it scripted, or what is the Jamie Kaler: Show? We have acts, I have two albums on iTunes. Michael Jamin: Oh, okay. So it's a comedy show show. Jamie Kaler: It's a standup comedy show that the Skis is a podcast, really. And we would bring our guests with us, maybe we talked about having Lemi and Heffernan come out and do the podcast live with those guys, but it would be billed as the parents lounge live with these special guests. But it's really a standup show for the audience with under the guise of a podcast. And we have bits and we would do improvisational stuff set up and questions with the audience, for the guests and for everybody else. But we just did, and we did it in Sara, Pennsylvania in the fall. And it was like two hours of just, I'm not even sure I touched that much of my material. We were, we were riffing hard, but we always had the material to step back on. It's like that's my favorite is you have these tracks, but you get off the tracks, you fool around. And if all of a sudden it starts to lag a little bit, you go, all right, here's some bits and then bring 'em back in. Michael Jamin: You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show. I mean, I don't know. I see people doing it online. I'd be doing exactly what you're saying. They take their podcast on the road and somehow, how do you think they're selling tickets though? Jamie Kaler: Because their followings are so strong that people, a lot of times also, I see these shows, and to me, the shows, I go, there's no show here. It's just this guy showed up. It's basically a two hour meet and greet. But honestly, that's what some people love. They don't even care. They just want to be in the same room. The guy will tell a couple stories, they'll play some bits on, they'll play bits on a screen and make it a show and they'll record the podcast live. But people are so enthralled by people chatting, I really missed my window. It really was my strong suit back in the day of just riffing and going along with stuff and being in the moment and chatting. But podcasts wasn't happening. And at the time when podcasts started, I was like, are we going back to radio? Why would people listen to podcasts? I was shocked. And yet off Michael Jamin: They were. But your brand is, you're trying to aim it towards parents or men dads, is that right? Jamie Kaler: Well, it's all parents and no, we've toured with moms. We usually take out moms. We've had Tammy Pesca, Kira svi on the show, Betsy Stover. We just had Nicole Birch. I mean, I think you need a mom's point of view. So when we do live shows, we typically bring out a mom as well with us. Michael Jamin: But you're talking, but is the focus basically on kids and parenting? Jamie Kaler: It is to a degree. But I also, sometimes we'll watch some of those shows and it's like sometimes parents don't want to talk about kids, so we kind of go where we go, and it's about life. The whole thing was trying to get people to understand that you see Instagram and you think your life. You're like, why isn't my life like that? The point of our podcast is really to go, nobody's life like that, dude. I mean, when's the last time you met someone who just was not absolutely full of shit? Have you met anybody who's not just full of shit? Anyone? Well, Michael Jamin: The thing is, especially in Hollywood, a lot of people were trying to hype themselves up. And I discovered early on, this is 30 years ago, that was the people who were talking most about their career really had nothing going on. And the people who didn't talk about it, they didn't talk about specifically, they didn't want people to hit 'em up for a job. Jamie Kaler: Know what I'm saying? And I said that exact 0.2 days ago, I was talking to Lori Kmar and she was just saying the same when I got here, if you were the one who were like, look at me, look at me. People were like, that guy's a loser. It was almost, and then all of a sudden, humble, I blame it on humble brag, humble brag. Do you remember hashtag Humble brag? That was the first one where people, it's really just a brag. You see humble, but you're really just bragging. But back in the day, I remember doing Friends and Will and Grace, and it was big. It was big. And I really didn't tell anybody. People would come in and talk to me and go, dude, were you weren't friends last night. And I was like, I was. And they go, why wouldn't you tell us? And I go, it seems dirty. I felt dirty bragging about what I was doing. But nowadays, if you're not constantly brag, brag, brag, brag, brag. People are like, well, I guess he doesn't have anything to promote. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I remember even just people, I'm in the business, they'll say, so humble to accept this. I'm so humbled to accept this award, whatever, where they might've been in sales or whatever. It's like, but you're using the word humbled wrong. That's not what humbled humble means. You're literally bragging. Jamie Kaler: I feel that way every time when I'm acting and the director goes and cut, that was perfect. We're going to do it again. And I go, you're using the word perfect improperly. Perfect means there's nothing better. I think that's exactly the meaning of perfect. And you're not using it correctly. I know Michael Jamin: One of the things that I always get, this is my pet peeve about being a writer. You'll turn in a draft of a pilot you've been working on for months, and you just turn it in and then they'll say, great. We're setting up a notes call for Wednesday. Isn't it possible you love it? You know, don't like it? You already know there's something you want change. It's like Jamie Kaler: You didn't even read the title and you're like, I have notes. Michael Jamin: I have notes. Of course you do. Jamie Kaler: Well, listen, if they didn't have notes, they wouldn't have a job. And so I think they're like, well, I mean, we have to find something wrong with this thing. They would get the screenplay for the sting and go, I mean, does the guy have to have a limp? I don't get the Robert Shaw limp. It's like, dude, can you just go, this is pretty great. And also you're not a writer. It's not what you do. Michael Jamin: It's hard to, now you're killing me. Jamie Kaler: I did a show one time, I won't say the name of the show, but I did a show. It didn't go anywhere, but my character is a car salesman. I see these two guys come into the showroom and I want to sell them a car, and I think they're gay, so I pretend to be gay. This is of course, back in the time when I guess you could do that without being canceled. So I act gay to them to get them to buy the car, and we're going to be friends and stuff. And at the end of the episode, my character then kisses a woman who's another salesperson as the reveal. He's not gay. He was doing it to do that, whatever. So all week, all week, the studio execs keep coming over and they go, dude, you got to gay it up. You got to amp it up. We are not getting the joke. You have to play this extremely gay. And then they would walk away and the showrunner would walk over and go, dude, I want you to play it dead straight. I don't want you to play gay whatsoever. So after every take two people kept coming over, giving me completely opposite notes, and I didn't know who. Michael Jamin: Wait, I a little, go ahead, finish your story because I want to Jamie Kaler: Jump on it. So I'm in the middle. I'm doing it. I'm not pleasing either of them, right? I'm right in the middle of guess, maybe a little after. I don't know. And I have played gay characters numerous times in tv, and usually I don't do anything. It doesn't have to be that way. And so I would play it dead straight. And so the show goes, it's a train wreck of a week. I'm just getting eviscerated on both sides of like, I'm not pleasing anybody because I'm trying to ride the line in the middle of between these 2 180 degree notes, whatever. It's a train wreck. We finished the shoot, I'm miserable. I run into the showrunner maybe three months later and he tells me, oh, he goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag. I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever. I goes, this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do? It's tv. I go, all right, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. But you're like, again, art, you wrote something. Your brain had this beautiful story you wanted to unfold. And then commerce and everybody has to prove that they're part of the mix and they can't be hands on. Michael Jamin: I'm very surprised that you got notes directly from a studio executive. That's inappropriate. They're supposed to go through the director. I Jamie Kaler: Thought the exact same thing. And people, it's not how it worked. They came right up to me. Oh, I've had that many times. I've had studio people talk to me all the time. Yeah, well, also, I wasn't a star. I was a guest. Michael Jamin: Yeah, but still you're not, first of all, the DGA can file a grievance over that if they were to complain the DGA, I think that's part of the thing. But here's how I would've, if I were you, this is what I would've done. I would've done one take over the top and one place straight. Okay, I'm going to do two different takes, two different. And you decide later which one you want to use. Jamie Kaler: I think I did do that to some degree. I don't think I said it out loud about you have fun and edit, and also you as a guest star. It's the greatest job, but it's also the worst job. It is. These people have been locked and loaded. I did friends the week I did it, they were on the cover of Rolling Stone. They'd been burned in the press when they spoke. They weren't outwardly mean to me, but they also weren't like, Hey, welcome to the, they spoke to each other in hushed tones away from, and I didn't blame them. They couldn't go to a supermarket. They were just famous beyond belief. But the set was tense, super tense because a lot riding, not a lot of money on this thing. The shoot was eight hours long after four, they got rid of the first audience, brought a whole nother audience in, and you start to watch the sausage get made and you're like, this is supposed to be fun and comedy, but sometimes these things are super tense. Michael Jamin: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Do you have any experiences that were great sets that you love working on? Jamie Kaler: So many and listen, even that set the cast was great and friends was great. It was here was the greatest thing about doing friends, or even honestly Will and Grace. I watched Will and Grace, I watched the four of them. Dude, they were a machine combined with the writing staff and Jim Burrows directing. It was like a masterclass, the four of them. And they would rewrite on the fly, they'd do one take and almost rewrite the entire scene. And then you would, they'd go, Jamie, here's your new lines. And I did six episodes over the years and each time I went back it was like, you better bring your A game. Because they would change the whole scene. And they go, so you enter here now you say this and then he's going to say this and you're going to go and you're playing spinning at the four of them. Man, they were honestly maybe the best cast I've ever seen. Really. It was like a Marks Brothers. They just were so perfect in their timing. It was pretty impressive. Michael Jamin: I had Max Nik on my podcast a few weeks ago talking the showrunner. The funny thing is I was touring colleges with my daughter years ago, not that long ago, whatever. We were touring Emerson. And the tour guy goes, oh, and this is the Max Munic building. He goes, anyone know who he is? I'm like, max gave you a building. Yeah. Does anyone know who he is? Jamie Kaler: They were both great. And again, I was overwhelmed because I was so new. And my very first one, gene Wilder, played the boss. I'm the dick in Will's law firm, and I had only done a sitcom or two. And then I got Will and Grace out of nowhere on a crazy afternoon. It was supposed to be another big name guy. And he fell out at the last second. And I got cast and was shooting in the morning and I was terrified. And then I show up in Gene Wilders playing my boss, and I had to do a scene with Willy Wonka. I was like, Michael Jamin: No kidding. Jamie Kaler: By the way, I didn't start acting until I was 30. I was a Navy lieutenant. Michael Jamin: Oh, Jamie Kaler: Really? I was the US Navy. Yeah. That's why I played cops a lot. I was a Navy lieutenant. I got out at like 28. I hung around San Diego. Bartended had fun. Michael Jamin: Why did you get it so early? I think you're supposed to stay in forever and get a great pension. Jamie Kaler: Oh my God. It's like I'm talking to my father. My father banged me. I still have the letters. He and I wrote back and forth where I told him I was getting out and he was so pissed Michael Jamin: Because Jamie Kaler: He was a pilot. My dad flew in World War ii, my brother was an admiral, and I got out to become an actor, and my father was just furious. Michael Jamin: Whatcha doing? You can one time. Jamie Kaler: Then I booked Jag. One of my first TV shows was, well actually my first show was Renegade with Lorenzo Alamas and Bobby Six Killer though, whatever his name is. Michael Jamin: I know I'm jumping around, but did you know Kevin and Steve before you got booked on? Yes. Yes you did. From what Jamie Kaler: I had done, we bumped into each other once a couple times doing standup. I was doing Thema or something, and then I forget how it's all blurry. I did their podcast, chewing it, and then just kind of hit it off with them. And then they came and did mine. And you talk about sets My boys was my greatest four years of my life. It was just, I met my wife, I bought a house. I was on a billboard on Times Square. We traveled the world. We shot on Wrigley Field in Chicago. I mean, it was glorious. Because of that, I started a headline clubs. It was just this like, oh, here we go. And it wasn't until Tacoma FD where I was on a set where, oh, people came early, people stayed late. You were almost going. It was like it brought you back. A kid being going to theater camp, going, well, here, I'm making a show. But again, as you know, it goes by the eps and number one on the call sheet and that dictates the tenor of the show tone. And they were Michael Jamin: Both the same. Yeah, Jamie Kaler: Yeah. And those guys, that sets a family, literally everybody. And that's why you also have to be really careful. You can't say anything because everybody's related to everybody and they're all friends. And then Soder came and played Wolf Boykins. And I will tell you, I was super, I love those guys. But there's also a little jealousy of, I've always been a team sport guy. I love Sketch probably more than I like standup because there was something about being on stage with other humans and this chemistry. And then you would get off stage and you're like, can you believe how great that just went? There was this, when you would do standup, it's just you. And when you walk off stage, if you bomb or you crush, you own it. But when you are with a group, I love the group dynamics. Interesting to those guys credit the whole broken lizard. I wish I had the state. I'm jealous of those guys a little bit. Kids in the hall, when I first got out, I had an improv group in San Diego and we ended up doing, we got on the front page. I had been out of the Navy like a year. It was in this crazy improv troop, had no idea what I was doing. And there was three other dudes in it. And the comedy club, the improv, started to hire us to be the feature act. And we would get up. We had no mic, so we'd kind of eat it and then the headliner would come out and go, what the blank was that jackasses? And then do his standup act. But I always wanted that group. You have a comedy partner, you write, you partner. I like that more than the solitary thing. And honestly, to go back to the podcast really quickly, the parents lounge, we didn't have a team. We had no team. And so it wasn't until I brought Phil Hudson and Kevin Lewandowski and then Justin Ruppel and his guy Taylor. And all of a sudden I had a group of people behind me who were like, Hey man, this is a really great product. Let's go. So I guess I'm just a team guy. And when I got to that set at Tacoma fd, I'm so sad it's gone because I just, that and my boys are probably the two highlights of my career, really, personally of joy, of going to work, not feeling pressure like Man Will and Grace. It was fun. It was invigorating, it was exciting, scary. It's a little scary, man. You're like a lot of money. There's a huge audience. There's superstars who are making a million dollars a week. I'd leave the table read and go, that dude just walked with 200 k Monday. Thank you. Monday, 200 K what it must be, same on basketball teams where it's like LeBron James and then that dude from Australia. There's a dynamic there where you're like, yeah, you're not flying home in a jet, my friend. I am. It was weird. So Tacoma fd, those guys never once ever made you feel bad about trying stuff, doing a take where you just explore and you could be funny and you let it rip. I equate it back to Seinfeld. I don't know what it was like on the set, but Seinfeld was one of the few shows where they let the guest stars actually get sometimes bigger laughs than the main cast, which I always find in shows to be the true genius of a show where everyone's there, it's a play. Let it rip. I've been on shows where they, I'll blow it up. I was on the seventies show and I had a couple scenes, and I played this goofy guy with a wig on or whatever, and crushed. I mean, I was a nerd. I was a comic book nerd. Huge laughs. And they took me aside and were like, Hey man, just so you know, you will never get a bigger laugh than the main cast, So you might want to tone it down or we're going to be here all day shooting. And I go, really? And they go, I thought they were joking. And they were like, nah. Yeah. Wow. I probably shouldn't say I'm the worst too. I'll burn myself to say stuff. Well, it's interesting. This business is crazy, man. And you sit there and you think we're just making comedy, but people are, Michael Jamin: Yeah, some people are like that. Jamie Kaler: Yeah. People get their feelings hurt. Those little memos where it's like, don't look so and so in the eye. And you think they're joking. They're not joking. Michael Jamin: You've gotten those memos. Jamie Kaler: I haven't personally. Well, I worked on some big movies where it was like, but I also am not the crazy person who walks up to Christian Bale on Vice and goes, Hey man, dark Knight. Huh? You crushed Michael Jamin: It. Jamie Kaler: I sat next to Christian Bale for a day shooting and he was Dick Cheney unrecognizable. By the Michael Jamin: Way, this guy might be the Jamie Kaler: Greatest actor who's ever lived. And he leaned over and he was so nice. Everyone was super kind, but he was nice to meet you. And he talked like Dick Cheney. He goes, nice to meet you. I'm Christian. I go, it's nice to meet you too. But I'm kind of laid back and I try not to, but other people will walk up to Bruce Willis on a set some extra and be like, Hey man, can you read my screenplay? And you're like, dude, read the room. What are you doing? Michael Jamin: What are you doing? What are you doing? People Jamie Kaler: Are crazy. That's the problem. And crazy people are drawn to this business. So yeah, I mean, if I was Tom Cruise, I might be the guy who look, just keep everyone away from me. I'm trying to get my job done here. Michael Jamin: Well, you know what though? I mean, I was working in Paramount doing a show and they were shooting, I guess some scenes from Mission Impossible. And he had his trailer, Tom Cruise had his trailer, a giant trailer, and then he had a whole tunnel that he would walk through from his trailer to go to the sound stage because he didn't want people in on the lot looking at him when he walked to the set or bothering him, I don't know. Which I thought was very strange. I was like, but we're all even on Paramount in the business. I guess were bothering would harass him. I'm like, Jesus, this is supposed to be a set studio Jamie Kaler: People. And it's even worse now. You go to a broad, remember when people dressed up to go to Vegas? I remember going to Vegas in the eighties and nineties and we brought a sport coat right now it's like cargo shorts, flip flops and beer hat or something. And you're like, there's just no decorum anymore. And people are so, and they're trained by their videos that they can yell and do whatever they want. People go to Broadway shows and just yell out and you're like, what are you doing, man? It's a plane. Whatcha Michael Jamin: Yeah? What are you doing? People Jamie Kaler: Are horrible. I know when people, I always laugh when people are like, no, I think deep down people are good. Some, I would argue a good hunk not no have no manners. Michael Jamin: That's probably a remnant from social media where they feel like they can just comment and be mean because they're anonymous, I guess. Jamie Kaler: Well, I think the good thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. But the worst thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. Yeah. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Jamie Kaler: I love when people like they're uneducated. They've never left their small town America. And they're like, no, no, I am 100% certain this is a fact. And you're like, Michael Jamin: Yeah, Jamie Kaler: When's the last time anyone has said you've raised some really strong points. I'm going to rethink my position. Michael Jamin: When you do see that, it always stands out to me. It's like, wow, look at you and humble. It does stand out. We'll do Jamie Kaler: That. Listen, we're all guilty of it. Even just recently, my wife said something to me, I can't remember exactly what it was, and I think your spouse is the one who can really cut you to the bone. And she said something and I was like, what do you know? And then later I thought about it and I was like, no, she's right. I have been, oh, here's what she said. Here's what she said, something about a post I had. And she said, you just come off angry. And I said, no, no. I'm a comic. I'm pretending to be angry. And I think I went back and I watched the Post and it reminded me back to early on at Acme Comedy Theater, I had this sketch where I was with woman and we were on a date, and it was very Jerry Lewis props humor where I kept getting hurt. I kept getting hurt. The window smashes in my hand, it ends by me lighting a candle and I actually lit my arm on fire and then would roll it out as the lights came down or whatever, and it crushed. It did so well. And one night it just absolutely bombed, just bombed. And I kept pushing harder and harder and it was bombing, and I got off stage and I talked to the director and I was like, dude, terrible audience. Tonight goes, no, no. He goes, your problem was you didn't play frustrated, you played and it didn't work. And I go, what a specific note. And I've always thought about that because me personally with my angular features, you have to go with what you look like as well. And if I play frustrated, I'm super funny, but if I play angry, I come off angry. And so she was right and I had to go. I think maybe in life everybody needs a director because you forget. It's really hard to self-direct yourself because you get lost in these megaphones of your own things that you're like, no, no, I'm on track. This is going great. Instead of going, I wonder how the outside world perceives me. Michael Jamin: That's exactly right. Yeah. When I recorded the audio book for my book, I needed to be directed. Even though I direct, I don't know how I'm coming off. Yeah, I mean that's actually probably the most profound thing I've heard today. Well, the day just started, but everyone needs to have a director. Jamie Kaler: Yeah, it is kind of crazy. Yeah, it's weird because we also get caught up in our own, listen, I will say the world is, and I know I'm an older cat and I look back at simpler time. I don't want to be that guy. I was like, it was easier, but it was easier. I equate it to even crosswalks lately when you were younger, if you were going to take that right turn and the dude was crossing the crosswalk, everyone would make eye contact and they'd hold their hand up and then they might even jog a couple steps to go like, no, no, we're in this together. We're a team. No. And nowadays I go, dude, are you trying to get hit by a car? You didn't even look up? Didn't even look up deliberately, and it feels like you're slowing your walk down. It's so odd what's happening. But I do think, listen, back in the day, people used to, if you were in front of somebody's house and you were waiting for them, you'd pull your car over and slide it up, maybe a few cars up. Now they just put it right in the middle of the street, hit their hazard lights and just wait. And you'll be behind them and they go, I don't care. I don't even know why they sell cars with rear view mirrors. They should just get rid of it. No one's looking behind them. Nobody cares about anybody Michael Jamin: Else. That's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, you're right about that lot people crossing the, I always think that, boy, you really are trusting of me. You really trust me not to hit you with my car. Jesus. Isn't that Jamie Kaler: Crazy? Michael Jamin: Yeah, sure you get a payday, but I might kill you. Jamie Kaler: I think it was safer back then too because you knew, listen back in those days, you knew to be off the road between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM when everyone was drunk. Right. You knew it and everyone was like, oh, drunk driving was terrible. Nowadays, 10:00 AM yesterday morning the dude next to me getting high on his phone, so now it's like twenty four seven. That's why I can't believe people, I never crossed the street without making eye contact and going, dude, are you on your phone or are you going to hit me? Michael Jamin: Yeah, you got to look for yourself. Jamie Kaler: Exactly. But again, I'm old, so what do I know? It is weird trying to teach my kids and I mean, we've talked because your kid's a little older, but trying to impart knowledge of the world to them to be aware of their surroundings. I always say they're probably years from now, they'll go, like my father always said, read the court. You got to have full court vision. I see it in cars. My wife will be behind one car and I'll go, you can't see that three cars up. That dude stopped. You are changing lanes. I'm looking five cars ahead. Michael Jamin: But Jamie Kaler: People nowadays, it's just this one little, they just keep their heads down and you're like, pick your head up, man. But people don't. Michael Jamin: Yeah, be careful. I need to know. So I want to know business right now I'm jumping around, but business is still slow for you in terms of acting gigs because from what I see, they're not shooting a lot. Is that what you were seeing? Jamie Kaler: That is true, and I've had a handful of amazing auditions lately. Oh, you have? Okay. So yeah, a ton. Not a ton, but here's the dilemma is they're all self-tapes, right? And I'm pretty good at self-tapes. You can see there's the lights behind me. There's a curtain right above me that comes down, and then I shoot it that way and they're pretty great. And I'm again about trying to be directed. I've asked my agents and my managers and been like, Hey, am I self taping these? Right? And they're like, dude, your self tapes are solid, but even there's no feedback. And I do think back in the day, I got a lot of jobs because I was great in the room. I was probably better in the room than I was as an actor. You could take it. I would get hired because a lot of acting is chemistry, and you want to see that the person you're working with is going to be cool and able to hang and also Michael Jamin: Take a note. Can you take a note? Jamie Kaler: It's so funny you say that, dude. So lately I was, for a while I was just putting the one take on where I was like, this is how I see this part. But this one I had the other day, it was so good, dude. It was handsome. Adjacent was the breakdown, which I was like, all right, because I've always been, I'm lumberjack good looks. I'm like, I know I've walked into rooms, I've seen Brad Pitt in a room, and I've been like, yeah, that's beautiful. I'm a little al dente. That guy is so gorgeous. I'm on the cover of a paper towel roll. I get it. I know. I'm Portland. I'm Portland. I'm a Portland 10. Portland. I'm a Portland nine maybe. So it's handsome adjacent, early fifties jerk cop. I go, dude, this should be offer only. Why am I reading for this? Michael Jamin: Right? Jamie Kaler: So I did the first take. I submitted one where I was like, more Tacoma fd, I was. I go, well, maybe that's why I got in here. They know me from that. And then I was going to just submit that one and I said, you know what? Because you can't go in a room, dude, the casting directors are so good that I've had the pleasure to work with Wendy O'Brien who did that one is one of my faves. She'll give you notes that will kind of give you a nuanced performance where you're going, oh, I see the change. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because hard. And so I did a totally separate take. I had a friend over here and I did another take that was so the opposite extreme of he wasn't big at all. He was very underplayed in tone. And when I sent them in, my agent said, he goes really great that you did two separate takes. And I said to him, it's a new show. I've never seen it. I don't know what the tone is. There's no direction. You're literally reading this hoping that your take jives with the guys who are going to hopefully see this tape or not. I don't know. And I also submitted it. The audition came out on Monday. It was due Thursday. I memorized it submitted on Tuesday. The other thing they tell you, they go early, bird gets the worms. So the business has changed so much. You're working really hard to pump these things out, but you're like, is anyone seeing any of it? It would be nice if somebody once just called and was like, Hey man, you're not getting it, but I got to tell you, you did a really good job, man. You what you get in a room or if sometimes you don't, sometimes. Yeah. Michael Jamin: So interesting. The life of an actor. So what is left for you as you wrap up, what is left for you today? What does your day look like today, an average day for you? Jamie Kaler: So we are relaunching the podcast. We have an advertiser that's just come on board. We are currently on Buzzsprout, but we're going to jump to megaphone and we're actually, we're still doing the live ones on Tuesday nights 7:00 PM Pacific Time. It's on right now. It's everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube, it goes out live. We're going to slowly bring that back in and we are jumping to Patreon. So come find us. The parents lounge on Patreon, and then we are, so we're doing all the marketing right now, and then I'm still working with the same guys you work with who have been eyeopening. It's like a master's class in this business of social media about getting people on. Because again, I feel like we have a really solid product that people not only and enjoy, but I think it helps parents kind of understand that it takes a village and not to get consumed in your day-to-Day. This is not to end on a terrible note, but we went to a funeral yesterday, one of the parents at my kid's school passed away, cancer Young with young kids, and we were all having a meltdown early in the day about whatever garbage problems we had on. And then we all got there and we were like, this is eye opening, right? This is like what? I can't believe I was bitching about Such and such earlier in the day then. So especially as a parent, I mean, I became a parent late in life, and so I lived a glorious thirties and forties, but now my life's kind of consumed by others, and so I see people in the middle of the country are hanging on. It's tricky times. The government's in disarray. It's an election year. Prices are through the roof with all these fires and everything, insurance rates are going up and people are literally day to day of like, Hey man, I don't think this is tenable. I don't know how we're going to get through this. So on the parents' lounge, we try to bring in a little seriousness, but a lot of humor and make everyone go, all right, I guess we're all in the same boat. So that's kind of our mainstay. Now we're building everything towards the relaunch of the podcast in a few weeks. Parents Launch, come check it out. Michael Jamin: And they should also follow you where Jamie Kaler: At Jamie Kaler on Instagram, I usually do some daily posts about my kids and all comedy. All comedy. And then we'll be touring. So the website will be up. Actually, Phil is, our boy is building it as we speak, Jamie kaler.com will be up. But come find us at the Parents Lounge and Social Media on Facebook at Jamie Kaler and excellent. Michael Jamin: Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a good chat. Jamie Kaler: Thank you so much. Honestly, again, this has been cathartic in a way of, I do think especially what you do, conversation is an art form, and I think it's falling by the wayside because people are so enthralled with these tiny little morsels of entertainment, and so the spoken word is being lost. I'm making my children read out loud a lot. We read out loud a lot because I think it's a dying art and hopefully the pregnant pause will come back one day. Michael Jamin: Excellent. Jamie, thank you again. The parents' lounge. Go follow 'em on social media. It's a great talk. Alright, man. Thanks. Jamie Kaler: Thanks brother. Thanks for having me. Michael Jamin: Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertisers supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Executive Producer, Jonathan Collier (Bones, The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Monk, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about his side hustle and how that came about! Tune in as we have so much more. Show Notes Jonathan Collier on X: https://twitter.com/collierjonathan Jonathan Collier IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0171927/ Jonathan Collier on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Collier A Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/book A Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1 A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4 A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Jonathan Collier: It was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Or any show goes past season 10. Jonathan Collier: It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought, I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what's much better? Do you want to show with some like in it Michael Jamin: You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. All right, everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? My next guest is an old colleague of mine, old friend from my days on King of the Hill before I let him talk his name's John Coly or welcome to the show, but let me tell you what he's done. The Sky's credits are pretty incredible. So you sit back and relax. Lemme tell you what he's done. So he wrote on The Simpsons. Okay, we've heard of that show and I'm only giving some of the highlights, some of the highlights, some Scooby dos, which I did not know. King of the Hill Monk, the Good Family Bones, the Good Cop Law and Order. I mean, this guy has done well. He's done a lot. But thank you so much, man, for doing the show. Jonathan Collier: Oh, it's a pleasure, Michael. Thank you for having me. Michael Jamin: Let me tell you about who you are because I remember very clearly walking to my, on my way to my office on King of the Hill. Yours was, I would always walk past you and I would often stop and say hello. Or sometimes I would just sit and you always had a big smile. You're always so happy to greet me and have me there. And I never felt like I was getting in the way you Yeah, come on in. Come on. You're always very kind. Jonathan Collier: I am endlessly in search of distractions. Michael Jamin: Well, I do remember walking past you on days when you're on script and just looking miserable. I Jonathan Collier: Am. Thank you. Nope, that's exactly it. Well observed. I am never more miserable than I am alone in writing. Michael Jamin: But why is that? Do you feel? Jonathan Collier: Oh, it's a horrible thing to do. TV writing is one of the most fun, engaging, productive things you can do if you're with other people. And I love that part of it. And the small portion of the job that relies on you being alone entails, I should say, you being alone and actually writing something without people around is misery for me. Michael Jamin: But is it the comedy part? You also do drama now? Which one is harder? Jonathan Collier: Comedy is harder. Michael Jamin: Okay. But yeah, I would agree with that as well. But is it miserable to write drama as well? Jonathan Collier: I find the process of keeping stuff alive and interesting and propulsive is really, really hard. Michael Jamin: And how do know? You know when it's alive? Jonathan Collier: What, sorry? Michael Jamin: How do you know? Jonathan Collier: How do I know when it's right? Michael Jamin: Yeah. How do you know? Jonathan Collier: Part of what makes it so miserable is you can always second guess yourself. And even more so when there's jokes involved. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Well, for jokes for sure. And what was that transition like for you? I'm amazed that anyone can do it. Jonathan Collier: Oh, I got very lucky. What happened was that King of the Hill was, we got canceled. You remember? It was time. The show got canceled. It was canceled two times. Michael Jamin: We left after the first time. Jonathan Collier: Yeah, left. So it got canceled. And I really realized it was for real when they started moving our furniture out of the office Michael Jamin: Because you were going to squat there. Jonathan Collier: I had every intention of squatting. Michael Jamin: You thought it was all Big bluff until they moved at the furniture. Jonathan Collier: And so that was happening. And I had done comedy for about 17 years at that point. And I didn't love doing for camera comedy. I liked doing animation and there were no real single camera comics, comedies on the air at the time, and I didn't quite know what to do, but I knew I stopped watching comedies. I kind of could feel the sweat on them and the work on them because I worked in so many comedy rooms. And I got really lucky, which is that Andy Breckman, who was running Monk at the time, who created the show, he used to have three guest writers come in every season. And he did that because he felt like he kept him on track. If you came in as a guest to the room in New York, it made him concentrate and work harder and make sure that in five days you would break a story. Michael Jamin: Why? Because people flew in, you mean? Jonathan Collier: Yeah, because the network would fly, the studio would fly you into New York and put you up and they would only keep you there for five days. Michael Jamin: Okay, that's interesting. Jonathan Collier: I got one of those. So I got one of those guest shots. And the other thing I got way I got lucky was Michael Jamin: Wait, but how did you get that guest shot? Jonathan Collier: I got that guest shot because this is embarrassing. My agent at the time who I didn't think was doing enough for me, got me a meeting with Andy Breckman, and I thought it was just one meeting with Andy Breckman, who's a great guy, and I love the show, but who knows if it's going to turn into anything. I fired my agent, moved on to another agent, and then Andy called me up and said, oh, we want you to do this episode a month. Michael Jamin: Right. Jonathan Collier: But there was no, Michael Jamin: But I've already fired my agent. Jonathan Collier: That was done. What happened was that, anyway, Andy used to only hire comedy writers to do guest episodes. Michael Jamin: Why? Jonathan Collier: Because his theory was that he could teach a comedy writer how to write a procedural. He could not teach a procedural writer how to be fun. So anyway, they flew into New York, I was in the room, we broke a story and I wrote it and it went well. The whole thing went well, and I got very lucky again because no one had ever really left the show or been added to it. This was the fourth season and one writer was leaving and Andy offered me the job. So I came in and went on staff the next season. Michael Jamin: How many seasons did you do there? Jonathan Collier: I did two more seasons and then the writer's strike of 2007 happened. And when that happened, I didn't know how long that would go on. Mike and the Good Family was starting up and they got what was called a strike waiver, and there were certain production companies and one was MRC, media Rights Capital, and they made a deal with the WGA, with the Writers Guild that they could do shows that were during the strike and it would not be strike breaking to work on those shows if they agreed to abide by the Wgas terms, the writer's terms. The WGA was using that as a tactic to try to force the studios to, Michael Jamin: And it's funny, they didn't really do that this last strike. Jonathan Collier: No, I don't think it really helped. Michael Jamin: You don't think it helped? Jonathan Collier: I don't know if it did or actually, no, I can't say if it did or not. I thought all I can say is I think this last strike was better run than the first one. I think a lot was learned from the first one. Anyway, I left Monk because I got a job right away rather than being strike. Michael Jamin: Right. Let me ask you that. When you're on Monk and you are with procedural writers who are not comedy writers, when they would pitch something that you and I would call a clam, or if you would pitch it in the room at the Simpson, the King of the Hill, someone would say, right? Was there a lot of that going on? Were you the guy who said, yeah, that's not really a joke? Jonathan Collier: Well, no. At Mon though, you had, first of all, it was comedy writers. It was a small staff and it was four people whose background was comedy, including Andy Breckman, and then one High Conrad, who was just a terrific mystery writer. And he had written something like 200 mystery books. Oh, Michael Jamin: Wow. Jonathan Collier: And the way he got on was that Andy met with him and took him out for lunch and said, look, I love your mystery books, and you have two choices. One is you come on staff or two was I'm just going to steal all your plots anyway. Michael Jamin: Oh wow. Jonathan Collier: Hi was on whatever came on staff, and he was on UNK for the whole run. And then he was on The Good Cop with Me Too. It was on, that was another Andy Breckman show. Michael Jamin: Right. It's so interesting. And to what did you think of that world? I mean, compared to comedy? Jonathan Collier: Well, it was a really kind of easy, delicate transition because it was a mystery show once again, written by comedy writers. Michael Jamin: Writers. It was light. It was fun. Jonathan Collier: Yeah. A procedural written by non-com writers would've been a tougher adjustment for me. Michael Jamin: But even the procedural explain to me and everyone else, how do you write a procedural? Jonathan Collier: I think there's many different ways to write a procedural. The way I write a procedural is what really happened comes first. Michael Jamin: What really happens comes first. What does that mean? Jonathan Collier: Okay. What you have to think of is what was our crime? What's the procedure about? What are we investigating? Michael Jamin: Okay, so give me an example. Jonathan Collier: It's not a medical procedural. This is a criminal procedural. I'm talking Michael Jamin: About, okay, so someone's dead, Jonathan Collier: Someone is dead. And then you have all sorts of questions you can ask that can form the basis for an episode. You can say, oh, is it an accident? Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? If it is a murder, or who did it? Why did they do it? Who could have done it? There any number of, is it an open book where the audience knows what happened? Is it a closed book where the audience doesn't know and learns along with our investigators? Michael Jamin: Did you basically do both? Jonathan Collier: Monk did both opened and closed book. And Monk also did a combination of who done, its who was the killer, why done, its, we know who the killer is, but why on earth would they kill someone? And that's how we can prove they did it. And how done its, it's an incredibly, it's a locked room mystery, for instance, where someone was killed inside the locked room, how did the killer get in there and do Michael Jamin: It? Interesting. Had Jonathan Collier: To figure out how the crime was done. Michael Jamin: And so these words are so funny. So as you were breaking the story, you'd break 'em in the room with all the writers, I assume, right? And then throw out ideas, and then someone would say, okay, but let's do this, make it a wide, let's make it a wide done at this week. Is that what it is? Jonathan Collier: Well, I think we'd look at the killing and say, what's a really, really ingenious killing? We could do? Michael Jamin: Okay. Jonathan Collier: Say, okay, let's look at the motive. And then we'd say, last, you'd spend probably say you were breaking a story over the course. If it was just us, we probably spent seven to eight days breaking a story. We weren't having a guest writer in. And the first three or four days probably spent just figuring out how the crime was done and why really getting Michael Jamin: It seems very hard to me. This seems very hard to me. Jonathan Collier: For me, it was somewhat natural way to do it because it was really fun. And for some, I feel like I was using my comedy muscles, even my plotting muscles to figure out why you did it. And then you work backwards once, and this is just us. Other shows do it different ways. There's probably a million different ways to do it. Michael Jamin: Okay. But you start work backwards. So first you decide if it's going to be a who, what or why is that what it's, Jonathan Collier: First of all, first of all, you can't figure out who kills who and why, who killed who, who kills who. How do they do it, why do they do it, where do they do it? All those things. Then you figure out how do we solve it? And for a show like Monk, he'd also say, well, I have someone who has OCD. I have someone who was painfully shy as someone who was any number of traumas in his life. Also a comic character who happens to be the saddest person on television, and he has a tragedy to his life. And what's the world I can put him in to make him the most uncomfortable? Michael Jamin: Right? And that's how you begin. That's where you start. That's Jonathan Collier: Often where, that's often where the fun of it comes from. The comedy is from seeing him in the world where he's uncomfortable, because comedy is all about discomfort. The emotional story would often come from how he will relate to the world and what it would bring up in his own life. And then the procedural story is how you solve the crime. Michael Jamin: You Jonathan Collier: Go ahead. Sorry. Michael Jamin: No, no, go ahead. Jonathan Collier: The way one could look at it is for us on that show, the procedural story was almost with the armature. It's what you would call the plot, I guess. And the real story was the emotional story that was threaded through the plot. Michael Jamin: Right, of course. Jonathan Collier: And the two of them dovetail and one comment on the other, like a musical comedy, for instance, where songs are the twists, they provide the transition points in the story. You could say the emotional twists or the procedural twists would provide a transition point for each other. Michael Jamin: It still sounds very hard to me. Does it get easier? Jonathan Collier: Well, I think it probably sounds hard because I'm probably overcomplicating it. Michael Jamin: Well, not really, because you're solving, because see, and I are thinking of writing a procedural, and so we're watching some, and I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I know how to do this. Jonathan Collier: Oh, I'll help you with it. Michael Jamin: Oh, good. You're hired. Jonathan Collier: It is not that hard because it's actually easier I found than writing an episode of King of a Hill where someone buys a new hat and it changes their life and life. You have to make a whole story out of that. Michael Jamin: Right. But you still have to figure out, it's a mystery. You're solving a crime and you have to make it so it's smart. I mean, I've watched other ones where they throw in a clue just when you need it, oh good, I dug a new clue so I can figure out another scene. Jonathan Collier: And there's shows that do that. And there's shows that I like, if you don't get a show like Merab Town, Michael Jamin: Right? I haven't Jonathan Collier: Seen it. Okay. That's real lies procedural. And what you realize is it is not about solving the crime. I mean, it's all the crime, but it is really about the emotional drama that's happening. And the crime is, once again, is almost the backdrop Michael Jamin: For it. But to me, that's what makes it so that's why I want to get rid of the crime. Can we just focus on the relationship between the mother and the daughter that I get? Jonathan Collier: And the one I thought does comment on the other, and they're both of us family, and I felt like that show worked pretty well. It's very much not a show that I would know how to do. Michael Jamin: Well, and that takes me to law and your latest, but Okay, bones, and let's talk about what you're doing now. That's very different. Law and order. Jonathan Collier: Well, I'm not doing Law and Order now. I stopped after last season. Michael Jamin: Oh, you did? Okay. But that must be very procedural. I mean, procedural. Jonathan Collier: Procedural, very procedural, very different beast. I mean, it was a challenge to figure it out, but I think I'm much more comfortable in this space where there's more character involved. Michael Jamin: Yeah, right. I would think Jonathan Collier: The part I like best is where I've been most comfortable and enjoyed the most is character driven procedurals. Michael Jamin: Right. Which is kind of like what USA does, right? Jonathan Collier: Well, back when they existed, Michael Jamin: Back when they were doing it. Jonathan Collier: So no, in other shows, there's been a lot of character-based procedurals on TV over the years, and that's what Bones was. Keone was a character-based procedural. Michael Jamin: And you were the showrunner that you were the executive producer? Jonathan Collier: I was the showrunner for a while, yes. Michael Jamin: Yeah. And that was the first time. Was that the first time you ran a show or no? Jonathan Collier: No. I've run another show on the CW called As If Michael Jamin: Before. Oh. But this is the, I still would imagine now that you're the boss of a procedural, I don't know. I need help. So it seems so hard to me. Wellm hung up on that. Jonathan Collier: I took over a show that was already working very Michael Jamin: Well. Jonathan Collier: Har Hansen, who created, it was a hundred yards away on the Fox lot in his office. I could always go running to him for help if I needed Michael Jamin: It. Right. And you had the same staff, Jonathan Collier: Sorry. Michael Jamin: And you had the staff, the previous same staff. Jonathan Collier: We had much of the same staff. And I had a co-Ho Runner, Michael Peterson, who was terrific. And I had Steven Nathan, who I took over the show from and only left because I was still a very close friend, and I could call him up whenever I needed to. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Jonathan Collier: I think starting from scratch is always much harder, or walking into a situation not immediately comfortable is always much harder too. Michael Jamin: But now that you've, I see this as opening a lot of doors for you. Has it? Because now you have two genres under your belt. Jonathan Collier: Yes and no. It's always hard. I mean, you have to always be out there in whatever writing. And there's a limited number of jobs that a lot of people want to do, and the people who want to do those jobs tend to be, when you think of it, just in terms of being practical, it's a great profession when you're doing it. But it's one of the stupidest professions to try to do because your competition is really smart, really talented, really talented, really inspired, really wants to do it and works really hard. There's a lot of businesses that aren't like that Michael Jamin: You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show. How do you know, were you in a lot of businesses? Jonathan Collier: I have a side business. Michael Jamin: What is your side business? Is it you rent folding shows for parties? Jonathan Collier: Well, no. I actually do multifamily housing. Michael Jamin: Wait. Oh, I knew about this. Right. Jonathan Collier: And believe me, my competition in multifamily housing will be damned if they want to spend 80 bucks to fix the toilet the right way. Michael Jamin: Now, do you build or you refurbish? What does that mean? Jonathan Collier: I do it with a partner who's also a writer, and we refurbish and build and rent. Michael Jamin: And Is it in LA or all over the country? Jonathan Collier: It's in Los Angeles. Michael Jamin: This is amazing. I remember, but I don't know. That's a whole different skillset. Who told you you were qualified to do that? Jonathan Collier: I think we always revert back to who we are, Michael Jamin: Which was, you were always a real estate mogul in the beginning. Jonathan Collier: Oh, I'm not a mogul by any means. We're mom and pop level of multifamily housing, but whatever. My family had small family businesses probably going back to the Middle Ages and they were butchers and bakers and ran a little in, did all those things. And that's where I immediately felt comfortable doing this. Michael Jamin: Really. Was it your idea to get into, how did that idea come up? Jonathan Collier: That came up during the 2007 strike also? Michael Jamin: Yeah, everything comes up during the strike when you're out of work. Jonathan Collier: So you're out of work, you're walking around with a picket sign. Yeah. I was thinking, wait a second. I'm walking around with a picket sign with a lot of angry, middle-aged guys. We're all mad at their fathers and taking it out in the studio. Michael Jamin: Okay, Jonathan Collier: We are at the mercy. We're putting yourself in a position where we're walking around with a sign waiting for a giant multinational corporation to pay us a lot of money to do something that we frankly love to do. And I'm not really in control of my faith here. Michael Jamin: No, we're not. Jonathan Collier: And so that's where my partner and I decided to do it. And then fortunately for us, I know what happened. I talked about it and I started talking about it with one of my daughter's, babysitters. Michael Jamin: How many babysitters does she have? Jonathan Collier: We had a hundred babysitters, a hundred best babysitters in all of Los Michael Jamin: Angeles. She required a lot of babysitters. Okay, Jonathan Collier: Whatever. When we go out, we'd have whatever, five people we call, whatever. And I've all come over at once. This woman was actually getting, I talked to her about it because while she was babysitting for us, she was getting her real estate license. Michael Jamin: Okay. Wow. Jonathan Collier: And so she called me up and said, I have a building for you, and it is a really good deal, and Washington Mutual Bank is trying to unload it really fast. This is now 2008 or so, and the whole real estate market's falling apart. Michael Jamin: And how many units is this building approximately? Jonathan Collier: This building has five units. Michael Jamin: Okay. So it's small. We Jonathan Collier: Did not know what we were doing, but we went and looked at it. We bought it. Michael Jamin: Okay. We had to make a company first. You had to do all the legal stuff. Jonathan Collier: Yeah. We formed what's called an LLC. We talked to a lawyer who was a cousin of someone, and they told us what to do. Michael Jamin: Real estate. As it turned out, a brilliant idea. It was probably the best idea you've ever had in la. Jonathan Collier: It was a very, very lucky time to do it. And so people, I found once again, like I was saying earlier, my competition in real estate was not as talented or hardworking or smart as my competition in television writing, but they were a lot luckier. And just by the strange confluence of events where interest rates went down and the economy started to pick up eventually, we all just by good fortune, by luck, it worked out well. It worked. Yeah. Michael Jamin: This is important because as you mentioned, nothing is guaranteed as a writer, nothing is guaranteed. And so to have something on the side is really helpful. Gives you some breathing. I highly Jonathan Collier: Recommend to people. I always tell whatever, when I talk to actors, I'm always thrilled when I hear that they're writing, even though they tend to be very good writers, and I don't like that. Or when they're doing something, when they're going to law school, when they're doing anything else, it's just nice to have a backup. It helps you sleep better at night. Michael Jamin: It does. Yeah, it really does. What's that? Jonathan Collier: You have your podcast. Michael Jamin: This is my empire, as you see. There you Jonathan Collier: Go. Michael Jamin: Yeah. My media empire. Now, you wrote an episode of King of the Hill, because when I talk about King of the Hill, and this is 20 years ago, we were doing it. One episode people often bring up to me is Bobby is the Pygmalion episode, which you wrote. Jonathan Collier: Oh, Michael Jamin: People want to know about that. And we were just joining the show at that time. I'm Jonathan Collier: Glad to hear that. I still think about that episode actually, when I said, I hate writing alone. I don't hate all of writing alone. I love the last two or three days of writing alone, punching up. I feel like face with a blank page. And once I've kind of taken a sledgehammer and beaten that script into shape, actually turning it from serviceable to good is actually fun. That part of it. And I remember the last three days or so on that script were really fun. Michael Jamin: But how did it, I mean, that was a departure. I mean, everyone there said, this is the departure. This is the episode, which ended in a really dark place. Jonathan Collier: It was a gothic thriller. Michael Jamin: How did you sell it to Greg? To the staff? I dunno if he was running the show then How did you sell? It was there. It was a departure. Jonathan Collier: Greg was there, so Greg was still there. I don't know if he was officially running the show, but he was there. Greg had to approve everything. He was basically, and Greg, God bless him. Not only did he embrace the gothic nature of it, but he pushed it even more. And some of the really strong gothic elements like killing. Michael Jamin: Yeah. The guy died at the end Jonathan Collier: Who loved. I think that may have been Greg's idea. Michael Jamin: Was there a moment though, when you go, wait a minute. Are you sure that this doesn't seem like the tone of the show? I mean, it's mostly Hank watering his lawn. Jonathan Collier: Oh, no. Once we were going to do it, I was off full speed ahead. I wanted to embrace it also. Now, there were other people there at the time. It was a big staff and whatever. Everyone had valid opinions or people who did not embrace it the way that they were entitled to that. But I think we pretty much got the episode we wanted up on the screen for Michael Jamin: Sure, man. I mean, that got some big, I remember watching the Color in the animation. We watched the color in the Room. That's a big, it was like, whoa. Jonathan Collier: Yeah. There were very large twists and turns. Yeah. It is always really fun to push a genre. Michael Jamin: It is Jonathan Collier: Carefully, closely observed family comedy and turned it into a large scale gothic drill. Michael Jamin: I had a conversation with Dave Krinsky. He ran the show at one point that, and the funny thing is, because people on social media, they're still watching King of the Hill. I haven't watched it since we were on it, because that's it. You leave it alone, you're onto the next show, and people really remember it. They remember it. They want to talk about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't really remember this episode. And Krinsky felt the same way, and he ran it. It's like, I don't really remember this. Do you remember everything? Oh, no. No. It's interesting that I think people have this expectation of the writers that we should still be living in it and we can't because we have to move on to whatever else we're writing. Jonathan Collier: Yeah. No, you only have so much room in your Michael Jamin: Head. Yeah. Jonathan Collier: I mean, part of it is we're too busy hanging on every grudge and slight and moment of shame in our lives to use in our comedy. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Well, okay, so I know you don't have too much time, but what do you writing? What do you want to write next? Do you want to write procedural comedy? What do you want to do? I Jonathan Collier: Really like the procedural space. I'm working on a procedural right now with a terrific writer who I was on bones with Michael Jamin: To sell as a pitch. Jonathan Collier: Yeah, Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean, and given your track record, I would assume it'd probably be easier for you to sell a procedural. I don't know. There, no, Jonathan Collier: I have no idea. We are in an odd market, so we'll see. Michael Jamin: What do you know about the market? I hear just from talking to other writers, I don't think anybody really know. What do you know about the market? Jonathan Collier: Oh, nothing. I know what I read in the trades. I know what I read in Deadline Hollywood. Michael Jamin: And by that you mean what's getting picked up? Jonathan Collier: Yeah, I know what everyone else knows. I have no information. I do know anecdotally, my friends at least have had trouble selling things. Michael Jamin: They're having trouble selling right now. That's what I'm telling them, because they don't know how much money they have. Yeah. Jonathan Collier: It is an inflection point in the business, and there's been periodic inflection points, whatever, where it's pointed in one direction or another, but no one really knows what they mean while you're in them. Michael Jamin: Yeah, yeah. It's so, so smart about real estate. I'm still hung up on that, and I know this is not a podcast about that, but in a way it is. It's a podcast about having your fingers in many whatever it is, pots or something. Pies. What is it? I don't know what the expression is. Jonathan Collier: It is generally pies. Michael Jamin: Is it? What about a pot pie, like a chicken pot pie? It's generally pies, you said, man. So, okay. So that's kind of what you're taking out there is you're working on, and how often do you meet and do you work on it? Jonathan Collier: Oh, we meet every day really? More or less every day. I like to work for about three or four hours Michael Jamin: In person. You meet? Jonathan Collier: No, we work on Zoom. And I don't like Zoom rooms, and I've been in some of those, but I like working with just one writer on Zoom, if you know them Well, it's fun. I mean, I found that in a regular room, and I'm sure people have told you this on your podcast and otherwise that, especially when you're No anything character based, any show, if it is not character based, the fun of it really is. And a lot of the creativity comes from what's not going on in the room. It comes from walking to lunch. It comes from Brow Cup coffee. It comes from killing time doing something else on the lot or your office. And that's when the ideas kind of come out of you. And you don't get that on Zoom. Michael Jamin: No, you don't. I wonder. Yeah. So was never Back. The rooms never got back. The last show I was on, it was still Zoom. Have you gone back in person? Jonathan Collier: No. Michael Jamin: No. Isn't that weird? Jonathan Collier: Really? I mean, I helped out, I did some punch up on a movie, and that was in person and on some punch up on an HBO series. Really? That didn't go, but that was whatever, a mini room. And those were both in person, but they were small and they were limited duration. So like a full functioning show in person. I have not done since the Michael Jamin: Pandemic. I wonder. Yeah, I wonder. They're just trying to save money. I don't think they're about saving lives. I think it's about saving money. Jonathan Collier: I think they're saving money. I think that sometimes one thing they found during Zoom is you get to writers in different cities. And so if you have writers in different cities to even the playing field, whatever, everyone's on Zoom rather than someone being in New York and someone being in Seattle and someone being in Los Angeles. But I certainly enjoy and benefit from the physical presence of other writers. It's hard enough to do it much easier and more fun when you're with other people. Michael Jamin: For me, Jonathan Collier: I have worked with writers who love being alone doing it. They have an entirely different experience and approach to it. Michael Jamin: Well, a lot of it's about the commute to work. You're probably central. Jonathan Collier: I'm fairly central, but I know people who actually, they don't want to be in a room. I've worked with wonderful writers who would much prefer to be alone and knock it out. Michael Jamin: Do you like going, working on set? Do you like being on set? Jonathan Collier: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it depends. Every set has its own character politics, and it's not particularly fun being on set if you have a difficult lead or whatever, if there's something going on there or if there's tension between the stars or if there's, there's any number of ways you can have tension on the set. By and large, I've been very lucky. They've been good sets, and it's been fun. And also, it's the last step and whatever. One thing you realize on the set is when you spend significant time on the set, you realize how many people are really offering the show that you may have ridden, Michael Jamin: That you may have, I'm sorry, what? Jonathan Collier: Your name is on a script, but everyone on that set, hair and makeup, your whatever, your director, everyone has your camera operators. They're all helping create that show. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Jonathan Collier: Writers in their own way, and they're adding elements to it. Michael Jamin: Yeah. And I know I have to ask this because we have so many fans of The Simpsons, but what was that whole experience like for you? Because you were there in the early days? Jonathan Collier: Fairly early days. It was really, first of all, it was a huge break in my career that was good for me. I didn't have my first child until very late in my stay there. And that changed everything where suddenly, oh wait, sitting here with our comedy writers till 1130 at night might not be as energizing and fun when you have a baby to get home Michael Jamin: To Jonathan Collier: That you want to see. So the hours were fairly brutal back then, but I still wouldn't trade it for anything. Michael Jamin: I can't imagine, though, that the hours were like that now, right? Jonathan Collier: No, they're fairly from what friends, were still there. And the hours are very sane now. And they're generally home for dinner. Michael Jamin: I mean, that's so interesting is that they've made a career that show's been on 30, what, 35 years or something? Jonathan Collier: Oh, yeah. And they can still turn out some terrific episodes, Michael Jamin: But it's a career. Your career, okay. You might as well be working at Exxon. That's your career. You get a gold watch and then that's you're done. Jonathan Collier: When I left, it was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10 Michael Jamin: Or any show goes past season 10. Jonathan Collier: It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what much better do you want to show with some life in it? Michael Jamin: Yeah. But then again, it's also these people that's, they have job security, which is unheard of in Hollywood. Jonathan Collier: It is absolutely unheard of. And no, actually, that's one of the great gigs to have right now. Michael Jamin: Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. I know you got to go. We talked about this earlier, but I want to thank you in person as we want to hang up and then briefly thank you, and then I'll let you leave. Jonathan Collier: Oh, thank you for having me. This was really fun. Michael Jamin: This is, honestly, it was so interesting catching up and just hearing your perspective on all this. And yeah, you're going to be our, if the show ever goes, you're our first hire to make a procedural. I don't know how to make, I don't know how to do any of this. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Jonathan Collier: Are we on air now or are we recording Michael Jamin: Still? Not yet. I'll sign off and I'll stop recording. Okay. Okay, everyone, thank you so much. That was John Collier. Great guy. Okay, Jonathan Collier: Everyone. He promised me a job on air. You heard it. Michael Jamin: I did say that. Yeah, but there's always got to go. That's a bigger, so it's an empty promise. So, all right, everyone, thank you so much. Go. Yeah. A paper orchestra dropped this week, my new collection of True stories@michaeljamin.com. Go check it out. Alright, everyone, thanks so much. Until next week. Keep writing. Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support this show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

I’ve been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I’ve written on some amazing shows, the work that I’m most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It’s the funniest, it’s the deepest, and it’s the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure. Show Notes Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1 A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4 A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra A Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/book Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Michael Jamin: Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big day Phil Hudson: Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me. Michael Jamin: Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's already Phil Hudson: Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now. Michael Jamin: It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere. Phil Hudson: It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't. Michael Jamin: Well, I'm doing it myself, Phil Hudson: And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book. So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him. So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay. And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad. I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do. Phil Hudson: You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks. Michael Jamin: Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it. I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call. I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them. I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it. Phil Hudson: Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters? Michael Jamin: Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that. And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not. One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music. Phil Hudson: That's awesome. Michael Jamin: Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me. Phil Hudson: This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art? Michael Jamin: Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer. Phil Hudson: Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well, Michael Jamin: It's also, Phil Hudson: But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it? Michael Jamin: Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully. Phil Hudson: And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called? Michael Jamin: The Goul? Yeah, the Phil Hudson: Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me. Michael Jamin: That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it. I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board. Phil Hudson: I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. Just Michael Jamin: Slow it down. Yeah, down, Phil Hudson: Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal. Phil Hudson: Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Phil Hudson: And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group. Michael Jamin: And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And so Phil Hudson: Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah, Michael Jamin: There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure. Phil Hudson: Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successful Michael Jamin: In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that. And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am? Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher? What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means until Phil Hudson: I remember this conversation, Michael Jamin: And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book. This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself. Phil Hudson: That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain. Michael Jamin: And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life. Phil Hudson: And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you. Michael Jamin: And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that? Phil Hudson: This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you. Michael Jamin: It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted. Phil Hudson: Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears. Michael Jamin: And what happened? Phil Hudson: They paid him every Michael Jamin: Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it. But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decide Phil Hudson: It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah. Michael Jamin: You got to build it first though. Phil Hudson: You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska or Michael Jamin: Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out. Phil Hudson: Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that. Michael Jamin: That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things. Phil Hudson: Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. Horrible Michael Jamin: Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross. Phil Hudson: Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do. Michael Jamin: You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well. Phil Hudson: This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane. Michael Jamin: Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report, Phil Hudson: But its hate Michael Jamin: Speech. You still have to report Phil Hudson: It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity. Michael Jamin: I could do that with my words. You're Phil Hudson: The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it, Michael Jamin: I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to Prince Michael Jamin: And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild. Phil Hudson: Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing. Michael Jamin: It's just odd. Yeah. Phil Hudson: I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast. Michael Jamin: Oh, Phil Hudson: Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it, Phil Hudson: But you're doing it. Michael Jamin: I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out. Michael Jamin: I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep. Phil Hudson: It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah, Michael Jamin: That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am. Phil Hudson: In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you? Michael Jamin: And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah, Phil Hudson: Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect. Michael Jamin: What is that? Phil Hudson: So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world. Michael Jamin: Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this, Phil Hudson: People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too. Michael Jamin: They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does. Phil Hudson: Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing. Michael Jamin: Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this. Phil Hudson: And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain. Michael Jamin: There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book. So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do. Phil Hudson: And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover, Phil Hudson: Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time. Michael Jamin: Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it. Phil Hudson: But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so. Michael Jamin: Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it. Phil Hudson: Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplished Michael Jamin: Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover. You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it. I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words. Phil Hudson: Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I called Michael Jamin: It? What did you Phil Hudson: I said, that's Providence. Michael Jamin: Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking. Phil Hudson: And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing. Michael Jamin: And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That's Phil Hudson: Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this. Michael Jamin: Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need. Phil Hudson: Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff. Michael Jamin: And where's that on YouTube? Phil Hudson: I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny. Michael Jamin: And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person. Phil Hudson: It's the fable. It wasn't Michael Jamin: The other way around. Phil Hudson: It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. Every Michael Jamin: Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you want Phil Hudson: Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story? Michael Jamin: Oh my God. That's another Phil Hudson: Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it very clear as we're talking about how to help him market his book, how are we doing this in a way that's not going to ever feel like I am using these people? And so what we have on your site that are published are reviews that people have given you of your book. And there are sincere, honest reviews of your book. And these are people you've worked with and some of them are people you've not worked with. And Mark and John Mayer I think is just this amazing story of someone you've never worked with, but because of this mountain that you've built and that you've climbed, now there's this relationship or connection with John, the John Mayer. Yeah. And I think it's worth talking about, and John May and John Mayer has this great TV show that was on VH one. It's called John Mayer has a TV show, by the way. It's one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Oh, really? And you talk about you ever gone to a standup comedy show or something and you laughed. And I remember bits from this thing. Oh, funny. It is that funny. I'll send it to you after. Michael Jamin: But yeah, I want to see that. Yeah, I just noticed that he was following me on Instagram or I think on, I Phil Hudson: Think Mark Hoppel in the course, if I recall, tagged, commented and said, Hey, did anyone see? Is that the John Mayer? I think he kind of shouted it out in your Michael Jamin: Comments. Yeah, I had forgotten that. John. Every once in a while, someone famous would follow me. I'm like, look at that. Look at that. That's odd. Which is nice. And then so yeah, so he was been following me, and then I needed to get a blurb. I'm like, why not reach out to John Mayer? What do I got to lose? And he is a fabulous musician and guitarist. He really can play. That guy can play. So I just sent him a dm. Hey John Mayer. I know this is weird. I got a book coming out. I'd love a blurb from you. I can just send you one chapter if you want, just one chapter. That way you don't have to, whatever you want. And so he goes, yeah, yeah. He writes back, I just finished. I'm on way back to the hotel. He just finished a concert, right? It was by 10 at night. It was, I don't know what time it was. It was late where he was Phil Hudson: Just putting Michael Jam in late night sliding into John Mayer's dms. Everybody just keep that in mind. Michael Jamin: So he's in his car going back to the hotel, and I'm like, all right. So I sent him one story, and I think it was the Ghoul, the one we were just talking about. And he was great. I'll read it. He's just unwinding from his show. And so about a half hour later, he writes back to me, and this is the quote I put on the book he wrote, it's fantastic multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging sincerity, which is exactly what a musician would write. Yeah, Phil Hudson: Multi. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I go, this is perfect because I can write more. And I'm like, this is perfect. And so we spent, I don't know, an hour or so just DMing each other and I'm asking him questions about art, and he's just DMing back. I'm like, holy shit. I'm DMing John Mayer. And it was getting late, and it was later where he was. He was on the East Coast, and my wife's like, I'm lying in bed. Are you still talking to John Mayer? Yeah, I'm Phil Hudson: Still Michael Jamin: Talking to John Mayer Phil Hudson: Was hilarious. You can't write that. It's a beautiful little thing. But he was so gracious. You're lying in bed next to your wife, DMing someone. And it's John Mayer. It's John Mayer. It's not some floozy. It's not some random girl on the internet. It's John Mayer. And she's like, Michael Jamin: He had so many interesting things to say and I'll continue sharing with another podcast. But I was asking him about art, about his, like I said, I learned from musicians, for some reason, what they do resonates with me and was, I dunno. He was so gracious and he did it right away. And what he wrote was beautiful. And then I was asking him about some of the songs he wrote, and he had some really good advice that applies to writing as well that I thought was just this guy's, when you talk to him, you go, oh, this guy's an artist. He's not phoning any of this in. He gives a lot of thought to what he's doing and it's super important to him. And I just thought, I just have so much respect for people like that. It was like he not a guy trying to be famous. He's a guy trying to make really good music. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his blue stuff is beautiful. Love it. That's great. Obviously you got quotes from Mark Marin. He said some really kind things about you. He said, Michael was essential in helping me portray myself. Honestly. Michael did a beautiful job of it with a paper orchestra portraying your authentic self. Michael Jamin: And that was something I learned actually from running his TV show. Mark was very vulnerable on the show and very, we break stories in the room and I'm like, boy, I can't believe you're admitting to that. And he almost looked, well, of course. Of course. Why wouldn't I? And so learning how to write for him actually was very helpful. Learning how to write this, Phil Hudson: Kevin and Steve, I picked that up in Tacoma of D too. They, there's no shame in the life that they've led. They will just tell you, Michael Jamin: Especially Steve. Steve will tell you everything you want to know. Phil Hudson: Shameless, love it. Love Steve. There you go. Steve called me out on his podcast and said, he said, not that Phil Hudson's not an actor, but he's not. And I was like, oh, Steve, that hurts. Oh yeah. He told me that my acting went to my head. I was like, it did a little, that's, there you go, Steve. Shots fired. Yeah. But it's like not having pride of that. And it allows you to be vulnerable enough to get to the things. It is what you've told me before, though, nobody cares. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Phil Hudson: No one cares. You think other people care. They don't care. They're too busy thinking about themselves Michael Jamin: And they're not. I've said this before, is that I think one of the worries people had when I was writing this book, they go, well, this is pretty personal, pretty vulnerable. Are you worried about being judged? And I've responded, I'm more worried about people judging me to be a bad writer. And so because of that, I will go there. I will give it to you because that's more concerning to me that you think I'm a bad writer. And so ironically, if you're worried about being judged, the course of action you should take is allow yourself to be judged and then you won't be judged. Phil Hudson: You and I were talking to another writer once and they said that they didn't want to go there, and you told me, we had a conversation. Did you hear what they said? And it's like, this is someone who has lived a life and has a story to tell and they won't go there. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I'm like, well, you signed up for the wrong job. That's the job. Sorry. Phil Hudson: It was beautiful. Laura Sanoma left me a beautiful Barb beer. Michael Jamin: She's so sweet. I worked with her on Jas Shoot Me. It was my first job. And so I reached out to her and if you want to read, but she wrote, Phil Hudson: Yeah, it's hard to see the letters I'm typing because my eyes are still Misty. Michael was a writer on a show I did, and I know he's funny. That's his gift and profession. I did laugh out loud that I expected, but what I appreciated the most was being led into Thoughts down the path to his deepest confessions and deepest Loves Good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey. And Michael, I don't know that there's any more fitting way to cap off the conversation we've had today than that quote. Michael Jamin: And she's an artist as well. I mean, she's an actor. I remember working with her. Laura's with the material. She's an artist. So I think she appreciated my journey as well. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Not to take away from that, I just thought if we could just talk about some of the other people who've read your book and Left Blurbs, and you guys can go see this@michaeljamon.com slash book. You've got Steve Levitan, who co-created Modern Family. He's the creator of Just Shoot Me Your First Real Boss, right? Michael Jamin: Yeah, yeah. Phil Hudson: Judy Greer, the infamous Judy Greer. John Schuller, who co-created Silicon Valley. He worked with you on King of the Hill. Michael Jamin: Yeah, king of the Hill and Lopez as well. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Max Mutchnick, the co-creator, will and Grace, Dave Krinsky. He was a showrunner in King of the Hill. John Abel, who was a writer on Kung Fu Panda, who wrote Kung Fu Panda, the infamous Steve Lemmy from Broken Lizard Lemmy, Kevin Heffernan from Super Drew Beers Beer, fast to Co FD and Broken Lizard, and David Litt, who was a co-creator of King of Queens. And you have many more that are not listed here, but it seems to me like the people who've read your book at a high level, people that we look up to or know are having the same experience that Phil Hudson's having in 2022, sitting in a small theater in Glendale, California, watching you perform your craft and seeing your vulnerability on stage. And so it really does feel transcendent and something that we will speak to everybody who listens to it on audio or reads it on digital or in paperback. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. So I hope all of you will enjoy it. And if you are writers yourselves, I hope it inspires you to mine your own life for stories. And that's actually the last chapter I talk about that how I turn is a little behind the scenes of how I actually turn this idea into a story like my thought process while, so if that interests you as well, that's also a part of the book as a bonus little part. Phil Hudson: That's great. Now, I am one who will buy almost all formats of a book. I can put on audio while I'm, audio is better for me. I can remember most of that tones and things like that. But often when I'm trying to study something, I will read it while I'm listening to it. This feels almost like a performance, getting to see you live in the audio book format here, and I think there's a bonus. Is that right? With your wife, Cynthia, who directed this? Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. That's on the audio book. We had a little, again, a different behind the scenes as well. Some people, at the end of the day, it is very visual because I still write it as if like, okay, what are we watching in the scene? I am still a screenwriter at heart. So you're like, okay, it's not very, so I try to make these scenes, I go, so you can picture it. So in your head, I think it's part of the enjoyment. You get to see it in your head. Although, like I said, I didn't want you to think I was a TV writer, but parts of it I think you have to embrace. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Well, all formats available right now@michaeljamon.com. Anywhere books are found at this stage right through set up. So if you're interested, go pick it up. You're doing sign copies on your website, so can sign copy. You can go to michael jamon.com/book and you can get it there. Anything else you want to talk about your book? Michael Jamin: That's it. We got some merch as well. We got some accompanying merch. That's another thing. I hope this works out by the time I have to make merch. So I have a friend who is, I hope this works out. We're talking on Monday. He does the bumpers. He used to do the bumpers for the Conan O'Brien show. So he's helped me with design some of the merch, and this is how it works. If people out, Hey, I want to be part of that. Phil Hudson: Well, it's been a pleasure and I just want say, and I'm so proud of you as your friend and someone I look up to is beyond just a mentor, really, someone I look to as a dear friend, I am so proud of you for the work you've put in for putting yourself out there. I have seen, and again, you're older than me and have lived more life than I have, but in the time I've known you, I've seen your growth as you've put yourself out there to be more vulnerable, to share your art, and you're reaping the rewards of that through other people wanting to participate and the ability to impact other people. And I think you're a great example to people of why you should be putting yourself out there. Because imagine all of the lives you've touched over the last two and a half years through the podcast, through your videos, through your social media content, and how many of them you would've never, ever been able to impact had you not started down this journey that you didn't want to go down, but needed to. Because as we've heard in stoicism say, the obstacle is the way, right. Your path, this obstacle of growing, your following and putting yourself out there is the path. That journey is the path you needed to go down to have the fulfillment of getting this out. Michael Jamin: And thank you for all your help and your help marketing this and all that stuff, the website, all that stuff. Phil Hudson: Of course, happy to support you in anything you're doing here. And likewise, it's so mutual too. And for everybody, this isn't something I'm getting paid to do. I'm doing it, and I've been doing it because it's mutually beneficial. I want to be a part of what you're doing, and I've been begging for this for years of knowing you get this type of stuff. So it's mutually beneficial. And everybody who knows me because of Michael, thank you for that trust. But Michael, thank you for having the life experience to say what you need to say in a way that is impactful. Michael Jamin: Well, thank you. That's beautifully said. That's because you're a writer. Thank Phil Hudson: You. Working on it. Michael Jamin: Working on it. Phil Hudson: Thank you, sir. Lots of stuff to talk about. Obviously the book is the most important thing right now. There's webinars, there's of courses, there's free stuff. But right now, now's the time to go support on the book and do something for yourself. Get the book and give yourself time to breathe and sit with it and feel it. Michael Jamin: Yeah, feel it. Go get it. Michael jamen.com. Thank you guys so Phil Hudson: Much. Until next time. Keep reading. Michael Jamin: Keep reading. Thank you, Phil. Phil Hudson: Catch you guys later. Bye. Michael Jamin: Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week. Show Notes Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1 A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - A Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/book Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Michael Jamin: Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big day Phil Hudson: Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me. Michael Jamin: Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's already Phil Hudson: Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now. Michael Jamin: It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere. Phil Hudson: It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't. Michael Jamin: Well, I'm doing it myself, Phil Hudson: And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book. So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him. So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay. And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad. I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do. Phil Hudson: You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks. Michael Jamin: Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it. I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call. I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them. I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it. Phil Hudson: Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters? Michael Jamin: Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that. And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not. One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music. Phil Hudson: That's awesome. Michael Jamin: Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me. Phil Hudson: This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art? Michael Jamin: Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer. Phil Hudson: Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well, Michael Jamin: It's also, Phil Hudson: But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it? Michael Jamin: Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully. Phil Hudson: And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called? Michael Jamin: The Goul? Yeah, the Phil Hudson: Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me. Michael Jamin: That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it. I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board. Phil Hudson: I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. Just Michael Jamin: Slow it down. Yeah, down, Phil Hudson: Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal. Phil Hudson: Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Phil Hudson: And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group. Michael Jamin: And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And so Phil Hudson: Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah, Michael Jamin: There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure. Phil Hudson: Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successful Michael Jamin: In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that. And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am? Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher? What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means until Phil Hudson: I remember this conversation, Michael Jamin: And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book. This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself. Phil Hudson: That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain. Michael Jamin: And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life. Phil Hudson: And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you. Michael Jamin: And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that? Phil Hudson: This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you. Michael Jamin: It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted. Phil Hudson: Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears. Michael Jamin: And what happened? Phil Hudson: They paid him every Michael Jamin: Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it. But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decide Phil Hudson: It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah. Michael Jamin: You got to build it first though. Phil Hudson: You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska or Michael Jamin: Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out. Phil Hudson: Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that. Michael Jamin: That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things. Phil Hudson: Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. Horrible Michael Jamin: Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross. Phil Hudson: Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do. Michael Jamin: You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well. Phil Hudson: This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane. Michael Jamin: Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report, Phil Hudson: But its hate Michael Jamin: Speech. You still have to report Phil Hudson: It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity. Michael Jamin: I could do that with my words. You're Phil Hudson: The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it, Michael Jamin: I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to Prince Michael Jamin: And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild. Phil Hudson: Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing. Michael Jamin: It's just odd. Yeah. Phil Hudson: I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast. Michael Jamin: Oh, Phil Hudson: Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it, Phil Hudson: But you're doing it. Michael Jamin: I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out. Michael Jamin: I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep. Phil Hudson: It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah, Michael Jamin: That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am. Phil Hudson: In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you? Michael Jamin: And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah, Phil Hudson: Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect. Michael Jamin: What is that? Phil Hudson: So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world. Michael Jamin: Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this, Phil Hudson: People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too. Michael Jamin: They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does. Phil Hudson: Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing. Michael Jamin: Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this. Phil Hudson: And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain. Michael Jamin: There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book. So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do. Phil Hudson: And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover, Phil Hudson: Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time. Michael Jamin: Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it. Phil Hudson: But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so. Michael Jamin: Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it. Phil Hudson: Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplished Michael Jamin: Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover. You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it. I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words. Phil Hudson: Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I called Michael Jamin: It? What did you Phil Hudson: I said, that's Providence. Michael Jamin: Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking. Phil Hudson: And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing. Michael Jamin: And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That's Phil Hudson: Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this. Michael Jamin: Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need. Phil Hudson: Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff. Michael Jamin: And where's that on YouTube? Phil Hudson: I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny. Michael Jamin: And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person. Phil Hudson: It's the fable. It wasn't Michael Jamin: The other way around. Phil Hudson: It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. Every Michael Jamin: Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you want Phil Hudson: Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story? Michael Jamin: Oh my God. That's another Phil Hudson: Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it very clear as we're talking about how to help him market his book, how are we doing this in a way that's not going to ever feel like I am using these people? And so what we have on your site that are published are reviews that people have given you of your book. And there are sincere, honest reviews of your book. And these are people you've worked with and some of them are people you've not worked with. And Mark and John Mayer I think is just this amazing story of someone you've never worked with, but because of this mountain that you've built and that you've climbed, now there's this relationship or connection with John, the John Mayer. Yeah. And I think it's worth talking about, and John May and John Mayer has this great TV show that was on VH one. It's called John Mayer has a TV show, by the way. It's one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Oh, really? And you talk about you ever gone to a standup comedy show or something and you laughed. And I remember bits from this thing. Oh, funny. It is that funny. I'll send it to you after. Michael Jamin: But yeah, I want to see that. Yeah, I just noticed that he was following me on Instagram or I think on, I Phil Hudson: Think Mark Hoppel in the course, if I recall, tagged, commented and said, Hey, did anyone see? Is that the John Mayer? I think he kind of shouted it out in your Michael Jamin: Comments. Yeah, I had forgotten that. John. Every once in a while, someone famous would follow me. I'm like, look at that. Look at that. That's odd. Which is nice. And then so yeah, so he was been following me, and then I needed to get a blurb. I'm like, why not reach out to John Mayer? What do I got to lose? And he is a fabulous musician and guitarist. He really can play. That guy can play. So I just sent him a dm. Hey John Mayer. I know this is weird. I got a book coming out. I'd love a blurb from you. I can just send you one chapter if you want, just one chapter. That way you don't have to, whatever you want. And so he goes, yeah, yeah. He writes back, I just finished. I'm on way back to the hotel. He just finished a concert, right? It was by 10 at night. It was, I don't know what time it was. It was late where he was Phil Hudson: Just putting Michael Jam in late night sliding into John Mayer's dms. Everybody just keep that in mind. Michael Jamin: So he's in his car going back to the hotel, and I'm like, all right. So I sent him one story, and I think it was the Ghoul, the one we were just talking about. And he was great. I'll read it. He's just unwinding from his show. And so about a half hour later, he writes back to me, and this is the quote I put on the book he wrote, it's fantastic multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging sincerity, which is exactly what a musician would write. Yeah, Phil Hudson: Multi. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I go, this is perfect because I can write more. And I'm like, this is perfect. And so we spent, I don't know, an hour or so just DMing each other and I'm asking him questions about art, and he's just DMing back. I'm like, holy shit. I'm DMing John Mayer. And it was getting late, and it was later where he was. He was on the East Coast, and my wife's like, I'm lying in bed. Are you still talking to John Mayer? Yeah, I'm Phil Hudson: Still Michael Jamin: Talking to John Mayer Phil Hudson: Was hilarious. You can't write that. It's a beautiful little thing. But he was so gracious. You're lying in bed next to your wife, DMing someone. And it's John Mayer. It's John Mayer. It's not some floozy. It's not some random girl on the internet. It's John Mayer. And she's like, Michael Jamin: He had so many interesting things to say and I'll continue sharing with another podcast. But I was asking him about art, about his, like I said, I learned from musicians, for some reason, what they do resonates with me and was, I dunno. He was so gracious and he did it right away. And what he wrote was beautiful. And then I was asking him about some of the songs he wrote, and he had some really good advice that applies to writing as well that I thought was just this guy's, when you talk to him, you go, oh, this guy's an artist. He's not phoning any of this in. He gives a lot of thought to what he's doing and it's super important to him. And I just thought, I just have so much respect for people like that. It was like he not a guy trying to be famous. He's a guy trying to make really good music. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his blue stuff is beautiful. Love it. That's great. Obviously you got quotes from Mark Marin. He said some really kind things about you. He said, Michael was essential in helping me portray myself. Honestly. Michael did a beautiful job of it with a paper orchestra portraying your authentic self. Michael Jamin: And that was something I learned actually from running his TV show. Mark was very vulnerable on the show and very, we break stories in the room and I'm like, boy, I can't believe you're admitting to that. And he almost looked, well, of course. Of course. Why wouldn't I? And so learning how to write for him actually was very helpful. Learning how to write this, Phil Hudson: Kevin and Steve, I picked that up in Tacoma of D too. They, there's no shame in the life that they've led. They will just tell you, Michael Jamin: Especially Steve. Steve will tell you everything you want to know. Phil Hudson: Shameless, love it. Love Steve. There you go. Steve called me out on his podcast and said, he said, not that Phil Hudson's not an actor, but he's not. And I was like, oh, Steve, that hurts. Oh yeah. He told me that my acting went to my head. I was like, it did a little, that's, there you go, Steve. Shots fired. Yeah. But it's like not having pride of that. And it allows you to be vulnerable enough to get to the things. It is what you've told me before, though, nobody cares. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Phil Hudson: No one cares. You think other people care. They don't care. They're too busy thinking about themselves Michael Jamin: And they're not. I've said this before, is that I think one of the worries people had when I was writing this book, they go, well, this is pretty personal, pretty vulnerable. Are you worried about being judged? And I've responded, I'm more worried about people judging me to be a bad writer. And so because of that, I will go there. I will give it to you because that's more concerning to me that you think I'm a bad writer. And so ironically, if you're worried about being judged, the course of action you should take is allow yourself to be judged and then you won't be judged. Phil Hudson: You and I were talking to another writer once and they said that they didn't want to go there, and you told me, we had a conversation. Did you hear what they said? And it's like, this is someone who has lived a life and has a story to tell and they won't go there. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I'm like, well, you signed up for the wrong job. That's the job. Sorry. Phil Hudson: It was beautiful. Laura Sanoma left me a beautiful Barb beer. Michael Jamin: She's so sweet. I worked with her on Jas Shoot Me. It was my first job. And so I reached out to her and if you want to read, but she wrote, Phil Hudson: Yeah, it's hard to see the letters I'm typing because my eyes are still Misty. Michael was a writer on a show I did, and I know he's funny. That's his gift and profession. I did laugh out loud that I expected, but what I appreciated the most was being led into Thoughts down the path to his deepest confessions and deepest Loves Good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey. And Michael, I don't know that there's any more fitting way to cap off the conversation we've had today than that quote. Michael Jamin: And she's an artist as well. I mean, she's an actor. I remember working with her. Laura's with the material. She's an artist. So I think she appreciated my journey as well. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Not to take away from that, I just thought if we could just talk about some of the other people who've read your book and Left Blurbs, and you guys can go see this@michaeljamon.com slash book. You've got Steve Levitan, who co-created Modern Family. He's the creator of Just Shoot Me Your First Real Boss, right? Michael Jamin: Yeah, yeah. Phil Hudson: Judy Greer, the infamous Judy Greer. John Schuller, who co-created Silicon Valley. He worked with you on King of the Hill. Michael Jamin: Yeah, king of the Hill and Lopez as well. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Max Mutchnick, the co-creator, will and Grace, Dave Krinsky. He was a showrunner in King of the Hill. John Abel, who was a writer on Kung Fu Panda, who wrote Kung Fu Panda, the infamous Steve Lemmy from Broken Lizard Lemmy, Kevin Heffernan from Super Drew Beers Beer, fast to Co FD and Broken Lizard, and David Litt, who was a co-creator of King of Queens. And you have many more that are not listed here, but it seems to me like the people who've read your book at a high level, people that we look up to or know are having the same experience that Phil Hudson's having in 2022, sitting in a small theater in Glendale, California, watching you perform your craft and seeing your vulnerability on stage. And so it really does feel transcendent and something that we will speak to everybody who listens to it on audio or reads it on digital or in paperback. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. So I hope all of you will enjoy it. And if you are writers yourselves, I hope it inspires you to mine your own life for stories. And that's actually the last chapter I talk about that how I turn is a little behind the scenes of how I actually turn this idea into a story like my thought process while, so if that interests you as well, that's also a part of the book as a bonus little part. Phil Hudson: That's great. Now, I am one who will buy almost all formats of a book. I can put on audio while I'm, audio is better for me. I can remember most of that tones and things like that. But often when I'm trying to study something, I will read it while I'm listening to it. This feels almost like a performance, getting to see you live in the audio book format here, and I think there's a bonus. Is that right? With your wife, Cynthia, who directed this? Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. That's on the audio book. We had a little, again, a different behind the scenes as well. Some people, at the end of the day, it is very visual because I still write it as if like, okay, what are we watching in the scene? I am still a screenwriter at heart. So you're like, okay, it's not very, so I try to make these scenes, I go, so you can picture it. So in your head, I think it's part of the enjoyment. You get to see it in your head. Although, like I said, I didn't want you to think I was a TV writer, but parts of it I think you have to embrace. Phil Hudson: Yeah. Well, all formats available right now@michaeljamon.com. Anywhere books are found at this stage right through set up. So if you're interested, go pick it up. You're doing sign copies on your website, so can sign copy. You can go to michael jamon.com/book and you can get it there. Anything else you want to talk about your book? Michael Jamin: That's it. We got some merch as well. We got some accompanying merch. That's another thing. I hope this works out by the time I have to make merch. So I have a friend who is, I hope this works out. We're talking on Monday. He does the bumpers. He used to do the bumpers for the Conan O'Brien show. So he's helped me with design some of the merch, and this is how it works. If people out, Hey, I want to be part of that. Phil Hudson: Well, it's been a pleasure and I just want say, and I'm so proud of you as your friend and someone I look up to is beyond just a mentor, really, someone I look to as a dear friend, I am so proud of you for the work you've put in for putting yourself out there. I have seen, and again, you're older than me and have lived more life than I have, but in the time I've known you, I've seen your growth as you've put yourself out there to be more vulnerable, to share your art, and you're reaping the rewards of that through other people wanting to participate and the ability to impact other people. And I think you're a great example to people of why you should be putting yourself out there. Because imagine all of the lives you've touched over the last two and a half years through the podcast, through your videos, through your social media content, and how many of them you would've never, ever been able to impact had you not started down this journey that you didn't want to go down, but needed to. Because as we've heard in stoicism say, the obstacle is the way, right. Your path, this obstacle of growing, your following and putting yourself out there is the path. That journey is the path you needed to go down to have the fulfillment of getting this out. Michael Jamin: And thank you for all your help and your help marketing this and all that stuff, the website, all that stuff. Phil Hudson: Of course, happy to support you in anything you're doing here. And likewise, it's so mutual too. And for everybody, this isn't something I'm getting paid to do. I'm doing it, and I've been doing it because it's mutually beneficial. I want to be a part of what you're doing, and I've been begging for this for years of knowing you get this type of stuff. So it's mutually beneficial. And everybody who knows me because of Michael, thank you for that trust. But Michael, thank you for having the life experience to say what you need to say in a way that is impactful. Michael Jamin: Well, thank you. That's beautifully said. That's because you're a writer. Thank Phil Hudson: You. Working on it. Michael Jamin: Working on it. Phil Hudson: Thank you, sir. Lots of stuff to talk about. Obviously the book is the most important thing right now. There's webinars, there's of courses, there's free stuff. But right now, now's the time to go support on the book and do something for yourself. Get the book and give yourself time to breathe and sit with it and feel it. Michael Jamin: Yeah, feel it. Go get it. Michael jamen.com. Thank you guys so Phil Hudson: Much. Until next time. Keep reading. Michael Jamin: Keep reading. Thank you, Phil. Phil Hudson: Catch you guys later. Bye. Michael Jamin: Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, I have TikTok Star Mackenzie Barmen. We talk about what she has already accomplished in her very short time in LA, as well as some of the projects she has planned for the future. There is so much more so make sure you tune in. Show Notes Mackenzie Barmen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziebarmen/ Mackenzie Barmen on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mackenziebarmen?lang=en Mackenzie Barmen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAP_cFPc2fqGTe50YhOlkDg/videos Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Mackenzie Barman: There's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I am certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. I just, I'm doing, Michael Jamin: You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, I'll tell you what I've been talking about. If you've been listening to any number of my podcasts or by social media, I've been saying the same thing a lot. I've been saying, if you are an aspiring whatever, if you're an actor or a writer or performer, put your work out there. Just start doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get. And then my next guest is someone who did just that and is doing that, and I discovered her maybe a year or two ago, and we're going to talk, and she's big. We're going to talk to her about her journey here. Mackenzie Barman, thank you so much for coming here. Lemme tell you when I first found you, and then you'll Yes, please. Then we'll tell you were doing a bit, it was a piece on you were reciting nursery rhymes, and you playing two characters. You generally will talk about this, but you generally do two characters have, and you're both, and usually it's kind of a sweet and naive version of you. And then there's kind of a meaner more, not sinister, but cynical. And I guess she puts you in your place. She's a little, and she wants up making you cry a lot. And so the sweet one was talking about nursery rhyme, and the other one was telling you, you're so naive, you have no idea what these nursery rhymes are about. And so that blew up and that's how I found you, and it was really funny. I love Mackenzie Barman: It. Thank you. Michael Jamin: Well, tell me, what is this? So you're huge on TikTok, you have almost 3 million followers, which is Mackenzie Barman: Almost Michael Jamin: Huge. I've written for shows that haven't been seen by anywhere near 3 million people. So you have a giant following, but tell me, so why did you start doing this? Mackenzie Barman: Well, I was an actor in the pandemic, and I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so everyone was on TikTok for fun. That was when TikTok was really blowing up, and I kind of just decided to start making videos and then not taking it seriously at all. But then I was like, well, it gives me a kind of a platform. And no one was really using it like that yet. But I started to see some sketches pop up and I was like, huh, or viral videos, whatever. And then I ended up just at random seeing somebody write about a nursery rhyme in a Facebook status. And I was still using Facebook, which I don't, and I was like, oh. And I learned in that moment what that nursery rhyme meant. So I just on a whim made that first Michael Jamin: Video. So that was one of your first videos? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, it was one. I did a whole series of those ones. So I did it and I just kind of improvised it. And the next morning I woke up and it had gone kind of viral, and so I made another one, and then I made another one and they kind of just blew up. And so, yeah, it was kind of random. Michael Jamin: But your intention, it was boredom or was it, you said you wanted to have a platform. What was your goal? Mackenzie Barman: Well, it was a little bit out of boredom, but it was more so like, well, let me put myself out there. And I used to go to a lot of casting director workshops and when I lived in New York City, and they would always say the same thing when YouTube was really big, make your own web series, put yourself out there, all that stuff. And so that's always been in the back of my mind, and I've always kind of considered myself a multihyphenate. I also shoot and direct and all that stuff, so I was like, I need to do that. So that's why I've always kind of focused on acting, being the primary thing in my videos. Let's get to that. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I was going to say, it's really smart. You show a range. I mean, you have, like I said, the sweet side, and then the other side is, and sometimes you play well, you're always playing characters, but to me it's smart. You're showing your range as an actor. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Michael Jamin: What do your reps have to say about all this? Mackenzie Barman: They love it. I actually got my managers through TikTok, they found me and oh my Michael Jamin: God, really? Mackenzie Barman: I had already had voiceover representation through my agency, but I didn't have a manager or anything. And I met my manager, Rachel. I loved her right away. And they love it, and they love the content and that it's acting first and the series and all that. Michael Jamin: So they give you any feedback or No, they just like, we love it. Mackenzie Barman: No, not really. They just let me roll with it. Yeah. Michael Jamin: Interesting. And then what other opportunities have come from all this? Mackenzie Barman: Gosh, well, one of the coolest things is the relationships that I've built with other creators, especially actor creators. And you just kind of know when you vibe with some people or when I watch certain people, I'm like, I know our brains work the same way. So I seek those people out to become, I love getting to know the people that I admire. It's cool to meet people talent first, and then it's doing a play with somebody. I Michael Jamin: Know you collaborate with people sometimes. I've seen some of those videos you've done. Mackenzie Barman: I've done a couple. I'm going to be doing more now that I'm in LA and with a lot more people. But that's been a really cool thing that's come from this. Did Michael Jamin: You start this in New York your first three years? Yeah. Oh, really? Mackenzie Barman: Okay. Yeah, I just moved to LA a few weeks ago. I was in New York Michael Jamin: City. Oh, when you said you changed your apartments, I assumed you were moved, okay. From in la, but you're Oh, you're, well, welcome to la. Okay. Thank you. Wow, this is a big adjustment for you. So what prompted you to move to LA then? Mackenzie Barman: Well, my managers are out here, and since TikTok, I've really, it's funny. I was always kind of like, I wanted to really be such a chameleon and not hone in on any one thing. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't want to just do drama. But now with TikTok, it's really pushed me more into comedy, and I've found that I really do love it. So out here, there's so many comedy opportunities, and I'm going to be doing part of a live show on December 10th, and just being, I just needed to be out here. Michael Jamin: Okay. So how did you get, you've only been here for three minutes, so how did you get this live show already? Mackenzie Barman: Through a friend of mine, actually, through social media. Someone you, oh Michael Jamin: My God, so smart. I'm always yelling at people. They're like, do I have to be in la? I'm like, well, this is where everyone is. I mean, why would you know? What were you doing? Were you doing a lot of theater in New York? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, so I did a lot of regional theater. I did an off-Broadway musical, and then when the pandemic happened, I was really trying to shift into more TV and film work. I really wanted to be on tv. I still do. That's really my big focus is to be on tv, be in movies. But I was kind of transitioning and doing the casting director workshops and doing all those things, and then the pandemic hit. But yeah, mostly theater. I'm a theater girl Michael Jamin: Now. Did you study, where have you studied? Did you study in college? Where did, yeah, Mackenzie Barman: I went to a SUNY school and I loved it. I went to SUNY Potsdam in upstate New York, and I studied theater and theater education. I didn't really start doing plays until high school and in high school. So Michael Jamin: You're from New York? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I'm from New York. From Michael Jamin: New York, okay. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, born and raised, upstate New York, near Albany. And then, yeah, I moved down to the city to be an actor and do all that. Right. Michael Jamin: Wow. You've only been here three weeks and so much has already happened for you already. Mackenzie Barman: What do you think? Yeah, I'm trying. Michael Jamin: What do you think It's a culture shock. What do you think? Mackenzie Barman: Right now, I'm in my lust for life extrovert phase where I'm like, because a homebody pretty much, I'm an extroverted homebody, so I like to be home a lot. But right now I'm just trying to be out a lot, meet people that I've, and just kind of be really social, Michael Jamin: Been amazing. How did you get into play? Okay, you moved here. Did you stay with a friend when you found your, how did, because I'm telling people come out. How did you do it? How did Mackenzie Barman: It was a pain? So I visited last August, and I stayed with one of my managers. Actually, I crashed at her place. I went a couple different places, but she's the best. I love her. And they're in the West Hollywood area, so it's really the only place I know. So that's where I am now. I'm in West Hollywood. And then I looked at a couple apartments when I was here, but I really didn't know where I was. I kind of did, but I don't really know. And then, so I just, Zillow and Trulia, and I ended up finding this apartment on Trulia, and I had a couple of friends come look at it and FaceTime me, Michael Jamin: And it was good enough. Mackenzie Barman: I was like, Michael Jamin: And then Did you drive here? You Mackenzie Barman: Flew here? I drove, Michael Jamin: Yeah. That's how you do it. Did your car. Wow. Now tell me, when you start posting, these are thought out, these videos you make, how much time do you spend a day making, and how many times do you post a day? Mackenzie Barman: It's really funny. I usually post once a day at most. I really should try to post once a day at least. It's usually every two or three days. Oh, really? Yeah. But I've been kind of busy, but it was once a day when I was doing the nursery rhymes, but I kind of got a little burned out, I think. Michael Jamin: Yeah, you do get burned out. It's Mackenzie Barman: A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. But I don't write anything beforehand. I improvise everything, but I kind of write it in my head as I go, and I have a loose idea going into it of if it was a nursery rhyme or something, I would have to research and have the facts ready. I would do that research beforehand and then kind of reference it as I improvised it. But for the character stuff, it's all kind of, they kind of just take over. I take a backseat, Michael Jamin: But you must edit some stuff out, or no, is everything what you say goes in? Mackenzie Barman: Sometimes if I say something and then I'm like, even if it's improvised, I'm like, huh, you know what? I think I want to tweak that and put the intonation somewhere else, or put a micro look or an eyebrow raise kind of somewhere else. I'll redo it. But most of the time it's my first take, honestly. Michael Jamin: So, okay. I was going to ask you where you're editing it because you're like this, you're holding it, and you do your one line, and then you turn around and do the other line, and then Mackenzie Barman: I swap. Yeah. Michael Jamin: So you're not even editing it? Mackenzie Barman: No, because I shoot in the app, unless it's Snapchat filters, which a couple of my characters are Snapchat filters, in which case I'll film them. It used to be that if I was doing the Snapchat filters, I would just shoot one character as a monologue and then post that. But then with my Danny and Bab series, this new, these characters, I have Michael Jamin: The ugly babies that you post. Mackenzie Barman: They're adults. Okay. I just, I'll pull up his filter, shoot his line, save the video, switch the filter, do her response. Michael Jamin: I'm surprised you can't even remember what you just said. You know what I'm saying? With the last character just said, Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I don't know. It's just kind of alive in that moment. But Michael Jamin: Are you thinking in advance, okay, this is going to do well, or this is just what I want to do today? Do you care? Mackenzie Barman: I do care only because I kind of have to care. I feel like it influences so much. Now your numbers and all that stuff, but I also care because I want people to like it. I want people to genuinely have a response to it that's a little deeper maybe than normal. On TikTok scrolling, which I do get a lot. I'll get people being like, wait, this is actually, so people Michael Jamin: Are, well, your fans really loved you. I've read some of these comments, and what surprises me is that you interact with pretty much everyone. Mackenzie Barman: I try. I try and they're smart. Okay. Michael Jamin: Why do you try? Mackenzie Barman: Because it, it's weird. It's like this weird, I don't really ever go to anyone's profile or whatever, but I can almost hear the comment in my head, and it almost in that brief moment feels like a conversation's actively happening. So I'm bantering with this person, or I don't know. It's just, it's fun to be engaging. And I've had people respond when I do engage and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you applied. And that to me is just so lovely. Michael Jamin: It is lovely, but it's so much work on your part. Mackenzie Barman: I know, but I sit and scroll a lot. So it's like part of the package. It's like part of producing the video almost is then the engagement after. And I don't do it as much as I used to, but I do. It depends on what mood I'm in. Michael Jamin: I wonder though. I wonder what you're supposed to do when I started, are you supposed to, I'm not even sure when I get, my page is very different from yours. They have questions for me. They want, as opposed to you. I think they're like your fans, they just want to, and so they're Mackenzie Barman: Just making a commentary on it Michael Jamin: Or something. Well, they really like your show. They like what? You're the fans. And so I just don't know what the rules are. I don't know if you're supposed to Mackenzie Barman: Interact yourself. I dunno. And it depends. If somebody does leave a nasty comment or say something mean, which is oddly really rare, don't come from me guys. Don't start. But it's rare. They're pretty good, my, because some people get it bad for some reason, and I don't really get that. Michael Jamin: Yeah, go on. What do you do? Mackenzie Barman: Wait, I've lost my train of thought. What Michael Jamin: Was it? You said? Some people come after you and they're mean, Mackenzie Barman: And either I'll completely ignore them or I'll delete it. If it's a needle in a haystack and it's just something mean, I'll delete it. But sometimes I'll respond with sarcasm or I'll make a sarcastic response video, and then it makes it funny. So then it's like, oh, this is actually a joyful experience. But most of the time I'll just ignore them if I do get them. Michael Jamin: And you don't block 'em, you just ignore them? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. I don't really block anybody unless they're trying to impersonate me, but Michael Jamin: Even, yeah. Wow. You don't even block the haters. Mackenzie Barman: Not usually. There's been maybe two or three. Michael Jamin: Oh, wow. I get more than you do I get more than haters than you? Mackenzie Barman: They don't really come for me. It's weird. I don't know. Michael Jamin: Wow. But now you're putting yourself out there. It's pretty vulnerable. I mean, it may hit, it may not. It may be funny. It may not be. I mean, was that hard at the beginning for you to do that? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I think the nursery rhyme videos did so well. Those were just one of those weird viral things where every video was getting a million plus and it was every day. It was just crazy. And now it ebbs and flows so much with TikTok. And now I have more normal numbers, I think. But I definitely do get a little anxious about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh gosh, I thought this video would do better. Or I'll post something out of my norm and then I wake up and it's done really well, and I'm like, oh, and then I'll try to do that again, and then it doesn't do as well. So it's like a flash in the pan thing. Michael Jamin: Do you share it as well on Instagram? I mean, what do you Mackenzie Barman: I do, yeah. Yeah, Michael Jamin: Immediately. Same content. You just put it up there. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Michael Jamin: Do you put it anywhere else? Mackenzie Barman: Not really. I've put a couple on YouTube. I really need to start utilizing the YouTube shorts because I think where it's at and Snapchat, I need to start utilizing more. I think they're up and coming. They're coming back. You think Michael Jamin: So? Mackenzie Barman: They're coming back? I think so. Michael Jamin: How many hours a day or minutes a day do you spend on this? Mackenzie Barman: I would say on average, I probably spend an hour on a video. Michael Jamin: Really? Okay. It's not nothing. It's not nothing. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. It's not nothing. But it's not like I know some people put in and you can tell some of these videos are gorgeous and the editing is, but since it's just me, it's also a lot harder for me to film outside of my hand, setting up the tripod moving and just a lot more to do. So it's just easier for me to Michael Jamin: Do. Do you have a list of ideas that you keep? And are you running out of ideas? Mackenzie Barman: I always feel like I'm running out of ideas. I always think if a video, especially if a video does really well, I'm like, I'm never going to do this well ever again. But I don't usually keep a list of ideas. Sometimes I'll jot down, I have a bunch of notes, like separate note app ideas. But a lot of the times it's just, if I have the thought, I'll just record it. That's why a lot of the times I look kind of like shit in my videos a little bit, because I film them. Usually my ideas come right in the morning, and so I'll just wake up and film an idea, and then it's, before I've even brushed my teeth or anything, I'm just gross. But it's when, and I just do it. Michael Jamin: And you put it up. It's so interesting. I don't know. Is there a fear? Is there any fear associated? It seems like you don't have any fear at all about this. Mackenzie Barman: I feel like I do. I feel there's a constant anxiety of one. I have imposter syndrome pretty intensely. Michael Jamin: Okay. And who do you think you are? Do you, you're not, is that Mackenzie Barman: I don't come from an industry family or any kind of connections like that. So I'm always like, who am I? Michael Jamin: But they have imposter syndrome too, because their mother and father was, they're famous. So I think they have bigger imposter syndrome than you do. You're Mackenzie Barman: Self made. I'm learning that. I'm learning everyone deals. There was a great Viola Davis interview where she talked about imposter syndrome, and it was great to hear that. Michael Jamin: What did she say? Mackenzie Barman: Just that it never goes away and that she was doing, oh gosh, what was the movie she did with Denzel Washington? Michael Jamin: Oh, was it Fences? Mackenzie Barman: Fences? Yeah. I think it was about fences. And she was talking about she was playing that part and was like, who am I to do this? It may have been that, but she was just talking about that, and I was like, that's really refreshing, because I think I look through rose colored glasses at these celebs sometimes, and I'm like, oh my God. They're so confident. But we're always seeing the best take, and we're always getting, especially as you get more involved in the industry, you start to see that it's all kind of smoke and mirrors. You just have to fake it. Michael Jamin: I read an article yesterday about Brian May from Queen. He said he still has some imposter syndrome, and he's Sir Brian May, and he's like, why isn't they call me, sir? Mackenzie Barman: It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. But that there is fear there. There is that fear of the imposter syndrome of like, oh my gosh, who am I? And it's silly. It's silly. And I know that, but Michael Jamin: Are you monetizing TikTok or no? Yeah. You are? Yeah. In the creator fund? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. So they have the creator beta program or program beta, whatever it's called. Great. Is Michael Jamin: That effective use? Mackenzie Barman: I dunno, maybe, but I don't dunno. Interesting. It's nice because you can only monetize on content over a minute, and most of my content is over a minute, so it really was a good thing for me. Yeah, Michael Jamin: You'd have to change anything. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Michael Jamin: But you have to have a personal account, not a business account. Right? Isn't Mackenzie Barman: That what you maybe? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Michael Jamin: Now, in your reps, as I was checking out some of your videos, you are, it's funny that they said this, but they like that you're in character. They like that you're acting. And I was curious, why don't you, or have you thought of, this is me today. I'm not going to act today. This is me. This is, I'm want to table my life. You're not doing that though. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, no. I've done a couple of videos like that. I've probably done 10 or 12, maybe 20. I don't even know how many I have on my page, but where it's me doing something. But I feel like sometimes it feels like I'm always in a bit, and I don't know if that's being an actor or if it's my own neuroses, but if I am in front of a camera, it's kind of hard for me to be just me, unless I'm doing a podcast and talking to somebody. But if it's me looking at myself on video, I'm always going to be like, ha. Michael Jamin: It's Mackenzie Barman: Difficult for me sometimes. But I do think about that because there is a part of me that really wants to be more like, wait, okay, so here I am as a person. Get ready with me. As I tell you this story, I thought about doing more of those just because it is fun to do that. Michael Jamin: Right? But the Mackenzie Barman: Math is always on. I don't know. Michael Jamin: That's more of a you thing. It's so interesting. I wonder, I was going to ask if you feel almost trapped in this persona that you are now? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Yes and no. No, probably not. I don't think so. I think I play such a variety of characters on my TikTok. Michael Jamin: Except for yourself. You play characters except Mackenzie Barman: For you. It's never really me. Definitely the closest one to me. And I think I'm pretty split right down the middle between the dark me and the innocent me in the nursery rhyme videos. And that dynamic is, in a lot of the videos, there's always me and me and whoever else, Chelsea or whoever. But I'm definitely split right in the middle. But if I had to lean, I would definitely lean toward the happy, bubbly me. That's probably the closest to me in any of my videos. Michael Jamin: But not that you should, I'm just pointing out you're not sharing anything really personal or intimate about yourself or Mackenzie Barman: No, no. In a weird way, I think that it's like, I don't know. There's a part of me that likes, there admires those celebs that you really don't know too much about Florence Pugh or Jennifer Lawrence. They give you glimpses into their life, their personal life. But there always is this level of mystique to them. And not that I'm trying to be mysterious, but I do think that it in the long run might serve me better as an actor to be more private than to be so human. I don't know. Well, Michael Jamin: It's interesting because it's also like you must know Elise Meyers, because I mean, she's big, but you're up there. I mean, you're not far behind her, and she's more, and it seems like she's doing what she wants to do, but she's more actor and she's more, I guess, personality. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Yeah. I love Elise, and I don't know her, but I love her because she's so just herself. She might have self-doubt, whatever. I have no idea. Imposter syndrome and stuff, but she appears and she does speak on things, her iss, and she's just so honest about it. And I do love that. I don't know. I just can't do it. Michael Jamin: Right. Well, you're being authentic or I Mackenzie Barman: Can, but yeah, I don't know. It's just tricky. There is that kind of want to keep this, but who is Mackenzie thing Michael Jamin: And what surprising opportunities have come from this or partnerships or relationships or whatever. Mackenzie Barman: I'm trying to think. Besides auditions and stuff. Michael Jamin: So you've gotten direct auditions from this? I Mackenzie Barman: Have. Michael Jamin: How did that work? Mackenzie Barman: Well, a lot of the times I'll go through my reps and then my reps will reach out to me, say, oh, you've been actually personally requested for this. Michael Jamin: That's a big deal. Mackenzie Barman: It really is. And I've gotten some callback. I've gotten, most of the time, if I audition for projects like that, I'll get a call back and then go whatever, and then it doesn't happen or whatever for whatever reason. But it's happened, yeah, a few times. But a lot of the time too, I don't know. I really don't know how much, because I get auditions through my agents, a normal actor would. So I don't really know on the back end of it how much they're like, oh, here's her video. I don't really know. Michael Jamin: But do your reps try to sell you like, Hey, she's got 3 million followers on, because that would be good to help sell the show when you book it or whatever. Mackenzie Barman: Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think that's definitely a leverage point. Working on treatments and stuff. There is work that I want to put out and produce and whatever, and I do think that helps and is a big aspect of Michael Jamin: It. So is that on your resume, like your follower account on your acting resume or no? Mackenzie Barman: I don't dunno. Actually. It might Michael Jamin: Be it. Should it be right? Shouldn't it be? Mackenzie Barman: I think in today's world, yeah, I think it probably should. It probably is. And it probably needs to be updated, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, I think it is on there. Michael Jamin: One thing you don't do, I don't think you do, is sell merch. Mackenzie Barman: No, I did one drop and I had a bad experience. Michael Jamin: What happened Mackenzie Barman: With doing it? I think my problem is I am not a salesy person. And when I was trying to sell or advertise my merch, those videos did not do well and not a of lot of eyes saw them because the people who would typically see my content, it was so out of the realm of what their algorithm would be that it didn't pop up for 'em and it just didn't do well. And I was like, you know what? And I didn't like working with, so if I think if I did, I would just do it myself. Michael Jamin: Wait, weren't you doing print on demand? How is it? Mackenzie Barman: I had worked with a merch company. I don't even remember the name of the company actually, but I had worked with a merch company and it was just a quick drop. I think typically if it's a first time, they'll do a limited drop to see how it does and then move Michael Jamin: On. You work with the merch company. Why don't you just go to some place that print on demand? I have five T-shirts if you want to make 'em one at a time. Mackenzie Barman: Well, it was kind of near when I was kind first starting out, and it's one of those things where you kind learn as you go approached. They had reached out and they said, Hey, we think McKenzie would be great. And they'd worked with other people. I think that's how it went down, or no, no, that's not true. I think it was my idea to make merch. And then I had, they were recommended because they had worked with some other great people and were really successful. So I think it was just my particular launch didn't do. Michael Jamin: Didn't do well. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content and I know you do listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michae jamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about. What about brand deals? Are you working with people with companies? Yeah. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. I've done some brand deals, which are so fun. I want to do more of them because they're just fun. It kind of gives me a, because a lot of the times there's no guiding light in my videos. It's just what's ever in my head. So when I have a brand to work with, it's fun. I can work around that. Michael Jamin: Did you hook up onto the backend of TikTok, or, I don't even know they hook you up, or no. Mackenzie Barman: Well, I think a little bit. I'm so bad. I don't really know all the business backend things of TikTok. I've seen some ads and stuff you can apply to be a part of this ad or something, but the pay is really low sometimes, or it's like a share a revenue share system, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. So these ones, they'll come through my management or my agents and be like, really? Hey, they want to work with me. Yeah, Michael Jamin: But do you have special agents, social media agents, or No, just your acting agents? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. At my agency, they have a department for everything. So I'm working with an agent there. Yeah. Oh, Michael Jamin: Wow. So interesting. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I'm still learning too. It really is a business. And you'd kind of go to theater school and you're like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a business, but then you're in the world and you're like, oh, this is a business. Michael Jamin: Alright, so is this your primary income or no? Mackenzie Barman: No, kind of. So I do a lot of things. So I also run a video production company. You do? It's very small, but it's called Real You, and it's a demo reel production company for actors. So basically, yes, I work with actors. I was an actor who had a MISHMOSHED demo reel of all these different student films, or you just wouldn't get the footage. So it was always a hassle if you didn't have stuff to put a reel together. And so I basically sit with actors, figure out their branding, their type, whatever, and then write them scenes and then film them. But professionally, I have a real camera and all that good stuff. Michael Jamin: And how do they find you? These people Mackenzie Barman: Through my website or there's a business website and stuff. And it's funny because all of the SEO is for New York, and so I need to figure out a way to make everyone know that we're in LA now. So I do that and I do voiceover, so I do commercial and animation. Well, nothing animation yet. I audition a lot, but I'm hoping to book something soon. But a lot of commercial work and radio stuff, so I just have a lot of, Michael Jamin: But it seems very smart what you're doing. You're also working with, you're meeting actors, you're working with actors, you're making contacts, and you're getting paid for it out here. It's Mackenzie Barman: Making me a better writer, a better director, a better actor, because I also edit the scenes. Each scene is about a couple minutes long, and so I know when I'm directing them and shooting it, oh, this was helpful in the editing process, or, oh, this was actually difficult. Michael Jamin: So it's interesting though that you write stuff for them, but you don't write for yourself. You just impro yourself. Mackenzie Barman: I do write some stuff. My tiktoks, I don't write for some reason. I really should maybe try to sit and write something. I think I just write backwards when I'm doing that. But when I'm writing treatments, we're working on TV stuff, then I'll sit and write if it's because a lot of the stuff that I write is for me, but it's also for other people. Michael Jamin: Right. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like I said, I thought what you're doing was so smart because you're really showcasing your writing, you're showcasing your acting, and you're, your range, your acting range by playing all these different characters. It just seems like that's exactly what you should be doing. Yeah. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. I'm really trying to build a brand there. And it's nice because it kind of acts like a resume or a reel. I'm like, just go watch my tiktoks and you can see, you can see what I'm all about. Michael Jamin: Wow. And what about the partnerships, the other actors that you're working with? Tell me a little bit about what that had led to Mackenzie Barman: The actors that I shoot for Michael Jamin: Or that you shoot with or that you collaborate with. Mackenzie Barman: Oh, man. Well, I've only collaborated with a couple people. My friend's Taylor and James, who are content creators, and they're both actors. They're amazing. They live in la. I did a video with them, and I actually shot this morning with Laura Clary. Do you know Laura Clary? She's great. She's so funny. She's like an internet queen. And so when I'm shooting with them, I love working with other people, a theater person. So it's in my soul to have tangible people with me. But most of the time I'm alone. So when I'm working with another actor, it's just the best, especially when I'm just bantering freely with them or, because Laura, for instance, she wrote a script for us, and when I clagged with Taylor and James, we kind of improvised it, had an idea of what it was going to be. It was like a curb situation. We had the bones, but Laura wrote it, and then we kind of improvised on the fly. It was great. I loved it. Michael Jamin: And they're pretty much want what you want. They want to get more traditional acting on TV and film. Mackenzie Barman: I think so, yeah. Well, I know that some of them do. Laura's already established and stuff, but my client actors, they're all either working actors who want to update their reel or want to add a very specific, they need a detective scene, or they need this specific type of scene. They'll come to me. Some of them I've become really good friends with just because I'm like, oh, I love you. Michael Jamin: I mean, you've only been in LA three weeks. Are you going to get involved in the theater scene or the improv scene, or what are you going to do? Mackenzie Barman: So I really want to get into the comedy scene of the character shows and a little bit of standup. I'm going to kind of play on the 10th. I'm going to have a five minute set and this show. So I think I'm just going to totally improvise it and just see what happens. This is my first show. So who caress Michael Jamin: And where is that going to be? Mackenzie Barman: That is going to be, oh, I don't know where it's going to be. Actually, I don't, Michael Jamin: By the time this airs, it'll be too late. But I'm just curious as to, Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I don't know. It's called One Star Review. It's like a comedy showcase. Michael Jamin: It's amazing how quickly you jumped into it, honestly, you jumped into it. I don't, Mackenzie Barman: I always feel like I'm not doing enough. I always feel like I need to be doing, but I probably am fine. Michael Jamin: It's only been three weeks. Yeah, I, but it seems like, I don't know. I admire you because you're not worried about figuring out. You're just doing it. It'll fall into place. And I think a lot of people are afraid to try and to, yeah, Mackenzie Barman: I think that I'm definitely always a little bit afraid. There's always a part of me that is like, oh my gosh, what if I run out of money? What if I don't? I don't really have anyone really to fall back on in that way, any connection. I just don't have, there's no alternative for me. Michael Jamin: But you didn't in New York either. I mean your family, but there are upstate New York, Mackenzie Barman: And it's just really tricky. And I think that there's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I'm certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. This is what I'm doing. Michael Jamin: When you mean do this, what do you mean? Do what? Mackenzie Barman: Just be an actor and be in this industry. I've always felt that way about myself, and it's weird. It's a weird just knowing, and I don't want to come off pretentious at all about it. I'm not saying, oh my God, I'm so good. It's more of just like a, no, I know this is what I have to do. It's weird. Michael Jamin: But I'm wondering if you, because you got a giant following. I mean, and it's weird. On TikTok, you have 3 million fans, but on any given day a hundred makes, it doesn't mean 3 million going to see your work. The algorithm is so weird. But I wonder if you have any bigger plans from this or from, what are they then, other than getting cast and having someone else? What else? Mackenzie Barman: No, so really, I really, truly, I think that I need to create the vehicle for myself. And I think a lot of people do that and need to do that. I don't think people just, it's rare that you're just discovered or someone's like you. I'm going to cast you. It's just so rare. And so I am definitely being proactive with writing and stuff, and I've written a pilot. I have a treatment for that pilot, and that's the clearest idea I have. I'm also writing a one woman show at the moment, like a stage show. Great. I'm in the early planning stages, early as is. I just had this idea two days ago of a monthly kind of mackenzie and Friends comedy show. Michael Jamin: What Mackenzie Barman: Kind of show? I think I want it just to be a variety show of whatever the comedians want to do. Michael Jamin: And it'll be a stage show. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, stage show. And I would just host it. But also, I have treatments that I'm working on for TV series and movies, and so I'm flushing those out, getting everything in order. I really, really want to pitch in 2024 and be ready for that. And I also want to write, It's something, excuse me, that I kind of recently, I think I always have liked that part of the process, but I think in my mind, I always thought to be a writer, you have to sit down and write, there's only one way to do it, and this is how you have to do it. But I'm learning that it's just not that way. I think David Mamet, he paces and he talks out loud before he ever sits down to write. And so I did. I host a podcast that I'm bringing back in January that I had Cola Cola on, and I love them. And I was talking to them and I was saying that, oh, I'm not a writer. And they were like, no, you just do it backwards. And they write on TV shows and all that. And it really changed. They had an effect on me when they said that because it really changed. Michael Jamin: So what is your intention with the podcast then? You're busy. Well, the Mackenzie Barman: Podcast. I know, I'm trying, I'm so the podcast, it's called Bullshittery. It had one season, but I did it on TikTok Live, and I did not like that format at all. I thought it would be fun and experimental, and it just felt like a TikTok Live and not an actual podcast. So I'm doing it now in person in January, now that I'm here, and it's like an interview-based podcast, but it's very loose structure and just chatting with different people that are kind of in the industry, our comedians, and just a loy sheet of shit. Michael Jamin: You're going to rent a studio for that? Mackenzie Barman: I'm going to do it in my apartment. In Michael Jamin: Your apartment? Yeah. Very good. So you got to get another microphone. Is that what you're going to do? I got to Mackenzie Barman: Get another mic. Michael Jamin: And you got to edit it though. Mackenzie Barman: And I got to edit it. Yeah, Michael Jamin: That's work too. Mackenzie Barman: I know, I know. And TikTok live was easy because the sound and the video were just there. I really didn't have to edit that. But this I will, because I'm going to up the quality a little bit. I'm going to use a proper camera and do it. Do it right. Michael Jamin: You can need a couple cameras. You probably, you want two cameras and maybe a master. Right. Mackenzie Barman: I was thinking that of either doing one and just keeping it in a two shot the whole time, which some people do. But also doing the single cam on each side. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I'm open to suggestions if you have any. Oh, Michael Jamin: I don't know. There are studios that you can go and rent it out and they'll do the whole thing, but you pay by the hour. Mackenzie Barman: I know. I, I did that once in la. It was actually a great experience. I love doing it, but I'd rather, because I don't have any sponsors yet. Once I get sponsors, then I can kind of up my, Michael Jamin: I think you need around 10,000 downloads to get meaningful sponsors. I think I Mackenzie Barman: So, I think so. Yeah. Michael Jamin: You're probably not there yet, but you will be. Don't Mackenzie Barman: Think. But I'm also a terrible marketer, so when I was doing the podcast before, I posted a couple of videos and I was like, this just is not me. And I need to get past that. I need to just sell my stuff, but I feel guilty. Michael Jamin: But I bet you people don't even know. I mean, people don't, you've got a giant following. They may not be aware of it. You don't have to market it. You say, oh, by the way, new episode tomorrow. I have Mackenzie Barman: Some, no, I know. I really just need to do the clips, the podcast clips. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. You'll figure it out. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I'll figure it out. Yeah, Michael Jamin: You will. I mean, you absolutely will. And maybe you'll do characters talking about your podcast. Mackenzie Barman: I know. I do want to do that. I want to do bits. If I have someone to banter with and go into character with, I'll definitely do that. Yeah. Michael Jamin: It's amazing how when I moved to la, I was young. I didn't have any of this shit that you got going on. I didn't even occur. I don't know. I wasn't as extroverted and as, I don't think, as confident as you are. So yeah, you're going places. Mackenzie Barman: I'm trying. I really am trying. Well, I know where I have to end up, so I know that I need to get in there. Michael Jamin: And when you say, and okay, you want to be on tv, you want to be, the problem is not many sitcoms anymore. Mackenzie Barman: I know. Well, I really, I am more of a streaming series girl. My ideal dream seriously would be to be a series regular on an hour long drama, drama d kind of a show that would be like, Michael Jamin: Tell me what show that you absolutely love that you wish you could be part of Mackenzie Barman: Something, Michael Jamin: And it doesn't have to be on the air anymore. So Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, there's a couple there, obviously. Huh? Well, I loved Big Little Lies. I love an ensemble like that. The White Lotus. If I could be on the White Lotus, that would be the, honestly, above all, that would be the show I would want to be on right now. Michael Jamin: Wow. Okay. Mackenzie Barman: Succession would've been one that I would've wanted to be on. It has that snarky, realistic element to it that I love. But I also love shows like Search Party or The Comeback. I want to do a mockumentary. I want to play a version of myself. Right. Yeah. Michael Jamin: I don't, well, you can do a series on TikTok. Just bang something out. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Jamin: I don't know. You already are. You kind of already are. Mackenzie Barman: I kind of already am. And I do try to sprinkle in dramatic elements too sometimes. And I don't know, it's funny. I like to evoke weird reactions from people. I'm laughing, but I'm also upset. I making people feel like that. Michael Jamin: I wonder, I think you're going to get to the point, I don't know, maybe you already are, where your reps, your agent manager, whatever, introduce new clients to you as to spring help springboard them. You really have a big platform. Has that coming? Has that happened yet? Mackenzie Barman: No, not yet. I don't know. It's so hard now because it's so forward facing too. I feel like there are some people that just do so well with the pop culture element of being present and being up to date with pop culture, I think is so huge. And I don't really touch upon that too, too much. So there's that small aspect I think that's keeping me from going even bigger. You know what I mean? Michael Jamin: Well, you did a piece where you kind of made fun of Congress when they were doing the TikTok here. Yes. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. I'll mess around with it sometimes if I see a good opportunity and I'll do it. Michael Jamin: But you think you need to be more topical? Mackenzie Barman: I think from what I see, and this might just be because we all have different worlds now too, which is another thing from my world, it seems like the people that do really well and that become kind of more forward facing are people who lean into pop culture and things that are really trending in that moment. And I feel like I maybe just don't do that enough. Not that it's a bad thing. It's almost intentional maybe. But Michael Jamin: Are you studying people wondering, are you trying to emulate other creators? Is that what you mean? Mackenzie Barman: No, I don't think I'm trying to emulate any other creators. I honestly think my biggest influences come from people outside of TikTok. Michael Jamin: Who are they then? Who are your influences? Mackenzie Barman: Like Lisa Kudrow, Tony Collette, actors, Michael Jamin: Amy Think, Amy Poller, Mackenzie Barman: Amy Poer, the classics. They're like, Michael Jamin: And do you think of them to get inspiration, or what do you mean when you mention them? Mackenzie Barman: I think that's just what comes together in my brain. It is all in there, and then it just all goes away, and then something comes out from it. I don't think I'm actively thinking like, oh, I need to channel Amy Po here, or be, I think the person that I'm closest to unintentionally, but I'll notice it sometimes, is Lisa Kudrow. I think I just love her so much and her isms that I feel like I might imitate her more than I even realized. Watch videos sometimes I'll be like, that was very Lisa cre. I'm like, that moment. But I think I'm developing my unique voice that's a blend of all these people. Michael Jamin: That's the step. And then I was going to say, how do you use art to influence what you do if you do? Yeah. Mackenzie Barman: How do I use art to influence? Michael Jamin: Yeah. I don't know. I guess what I'm asking is where are you drawing inspiration from? Who would you love to be? And maybe it's Lisa Kra. I know your version of them, but whatever. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I don't really know. I feel like I always have the thought in my brain that I, I'm very conscious about what I'm putting out. Is this too silly that it's dumb? Or is it too serious that I feel like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what really influences my Michael Jamin: Well, are there videos then that you don't put out? I mean, you shoot and you're like, eh, I'm not putting this up. Mackenzie Barman: Rarely. Most of those are the silly tiktoks of if I see a viral sound or something and I'll just do it, but I won't post it, I'll just do it. I dunno. It feels weird. It feels like I'm breaking some rule with myself to go outside of, and it might be this snobbish thing that I'm doing. It might be like, oh, I need to be this character actor person. And then if I break out of that and I'm just like a real girly girl, I don't know, maybe. I don't know. Michael Jamin: Well, but that's interesting. I feel there are certain trends and there's certain challenges you could do, and I don't partake in any of that shit. I feel like I'm too old for it, but I also feel like that's just not my brand. I'm not going to do any of that. And I wonder if you feel the same way. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, I'll watch them and I'll enjoy them. Even sometimes I'll do them and I'll record them, and then I've posted a couple some, but most of the time it just feels weird to do it. I feel like I'm like, again, maybe that's that imposter syndrome creeping. I'm like, nobody wants to see me do this. Nobody wants to hear me talk about this or, Michael Jamin: Yeah, but then, and you might be right, the thing is, you might be right. You might try that. And if you get almost, I dunno, whatever, a low view count, then you're like, I guess they didn't want to hear it then. And it may just be random. Mackenzie Barman: And then you're in your head like, oh my gosh, if I'm my real self and they don't like it, right? Oh my God, they don't like me, do I? And I think maybe that's part of it too. It's like I am confident when I'm acting because it's not me anymore. It's like it's somebody else. Their fear is gone really of like, well, if you don't like it, it's not me. You don't like, it's them you don't like. But when it's just me being myself, I'm questioning my humor. I'm questioning my relatability. I'm questioning my, am I girly enough? Am I quirky? It's too many thoughts. Michael Jamin: No, I get that. I mean, on the occasions that I'm funny in my video, I'm like, this better be funny. This guy says he's a comedy writer. What's going to throw shade at me? And they'll be, right. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah. But I admire that. And it seems silly when I'm talking about it, it seems like just be yourself. I know people love me, but I don't know. It just feels weird. But I admire so much, and I watch all the videos of people who are just like, story time. I'm going to tell you this time. And I love that. I don't know. I just feel like if I do it, I'll record it and watch it. I'll be like, the story is dumb. Or I don't know, a lot of self-doubt, but it's weird. It's like I can have self-doubt here, but then I'm like, no, this is amazing. Somewhere else. Michael Jamin: Right. Okay. And is there any thought, I guess there isn't because you kind of improv this, but I'm always thinking, I better get too, because people got that thumb on and they can scroll so fast. Do you give any thought to that? How fast you're going to get this thing moving? How fast you're going to get to the good part? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Because I think sometimes the music helps if people, that's why I always will use sinister music, because people immediately are like, oh, what's going on here? And I think that will compensate for me taking my beats and taking my sweet time with it. Because at the end of the day too, I love storytelling and I love of keeping people engaged with something. So I kind of let the music do that part. But I do think about that, oh, I should really get to it quickly within the first 10, 15 seconds at least. But even then, it's too late. Michael Jamin: It's so interesting. I don't know how we're supposed to handle any of this, but again, I guess I want to get back to you before I get to let you go, before you respond. The relationships that you've formed, I guess they are your fans and you correspond with them, whatever. Mackenzie Barman: And a couple have become friends, a couple of Really, yeah. There's a couple people that I've just messaged and just vibed with you just kind of, most of the time it's like nothing. But do Michael Jamin: They reach out to you first? Or how does that work? Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, there have been a couple people that I noticed will comment a lot, and then I'll kind of randomly respond to dms on Instagram. I respond to a lot of dms, honestly. But then sometimes if there's just, you just know energetically. If they're kind of odd or they're kind of pushy or they say something weird, then I'm like, okay, bye. But sometimes they'll be kind of funny and kind of like bantering. I'm like, huh, okay. There's a girl, Faye, I love her. Shout out Faye. She's from Ireland. And I love people that are not from the United States, too. If you're from England or Ireland or somewhere, I'm going to love you automatically. But she's from Ireland, and we were kind of joking about her teaching me an Irish accent, whatever. So we were like voice memoing back and forth. And then she's the one who now Photoshops my Danny and Babs photos. She's just amazing at it. And she's like, I'll just do it. Don't worry about it. I'm like, Michael Jamin: Oh, wow. Mackenzie Barman: Okay. Michael Jamin: Isn't that nice? I Mackenzie Barman: Love her. I love her. Wow. Michael Jamin: It's such an interesting, I don't know, community, and I wonder how big this thing is. I wonder how many creators. There's a small circle that I seem to be in, and I'm like, is this everybody? Or am I missing about 10 billion of us? Mackenzie Barman: I think it's both because I feel like it's a small world. Most of the time, the people I know, the other people that I know and influencers are comedic content creators. But then there will be somebody with 12 million followers who I've never seen or heard of before, and I'm like, I did not know you even existed, but you're so famous on the internet. And I'm like, I've never seen you. So it's weird. Michael Jamin: And you reach out to them, or No, you just follow them or Mackenzie Barman: Something. Oh, no, I'll just hear about it. Or I'll see a random person pop up on TikTok and go to their profile and they have 12 million. And I'm like, I have never seen you before. It's just odd. It's such Michael Jamin: An odd thing. There's this woman that I follow, and maybe you've heard of her. She's digging a ton under her house, but Mackenzie Barman: I want to be on that. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I don't know where she lives, but she has a house and she's literally digging. She has a lab coat, and she's pouring concrete and she's digging, and it's just her passion. But I don't know if she's a, I don't think Mackenzie Barman: She is that legal. Can you do that? Michael Jamin: Right. And she's not really, I don't think she's a certified structural engineer, but she has all these books and she's reading them. She's like, and this is how I learned how to do the electricity. It's like, oh my God, I just had to read this book. And so she's like a mad scientist. And then she was picked up on Yahoo. Yahoo did an article about her, and then I DMed her. Look at, you're on Yahoo now. Mackenzie Barman: Oh my gosh. Michael Jamin: There's just so many interesting people doing interesting things. I'm like, wow. Mackenzie Barman: No, I know. I'm deep on some tiktoks. I love conspiracy talk. I love it. I don't buy into it, but I love it. Michael Jamin: But see, I don't want to, don't think you want to get too far. You don't want to. Mackenzie Barman: I know. Michael Jamin: I know. You can keep them from a distance, but you don't want to, Mackenzie Barman: You start to tread a line where you're like, wait a minute, this is suddenly not where I want to be. That happens. Michael Jamin: Right? Wow. Mackenzie, thank you so much for joining me. What an interesting, again, I have such admiration for what you do and I'm a fan, and there it is. Yeah, Mackenzie Barman: I mean, you too. I mean, we got to talk shop too at some Michael Jamin: Point. Well, when we finish this, we will do that, but I want to make sure everyone knows where to find you. So tell everyone what all your handles are. Mackenzie Barman: Yeah, follow me guys. I'm at Mackenzie Barman everywhere. So I'm Michael Jamin: Everywhere Mackenzie Barman: At Mackenzie Barman. I'm mostly on TikTok and Instagram. But follow me on YouTube too, because I'll be there and Snapchat Michael Jamin: Can find me. I dunno anything about Snap, but alright. Thank you again and don't go anywhere. I'll sign off. I won't. Alright, everyone, another great talk. Be like her. Go follow her. Just put yourself out there and then work on it and you'll get better and better. Okay, everyone, until next week, keep creating. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have author Shelia Heti, book writer of Pure Color, Motherhood, Alphabetical Diaries, and many many more. We talk about how I discovered her writing and why Pure Color meant so much to me. She also explains her writing process and how she approaches a story. There is so much more. Show Notes Sheila Heti Website: https://www.sheilaheti.com/ Sheila Heti on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Heti Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Sheila Heti: That's what I was thinking. Michael Jamin: It was work harder. Sheila Heti: I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive. Michael Jamin: And what did that work look like to you? Sheila Heti: Just always writing and always not being satisfied and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better and trying to be more, try to get it to sound and more interesting and figure out what my sentences were and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I'm not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way Michael Jamin: You're listening to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Michael Jamin: What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about today? Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking about, honestly, one of the greatest, I feel, one of the greatest writers of my generation. Yep, yep. Her name is Sheila Hedy. She's the author of I guess 11 books, including Pure Color, although it's spelled with a U, the Canadian Way, a Garden of Creatures, motherhood, how Should a Person Be? And her forthcoming book, alphabetical Diaries. And she's just an amazing talent. So she's an author, but I don't describe her this way. And by the way, I'm going to talk about Sheila for about 59 minutes, and then at the end I'll let her get a word and then I'll probably cut her off. But I have to give her a good proper introduction. She's really, really that amazing of a writer. So author isn't really the right word. She really is, in my opinion, an artist who paints with words. And if you imagine going up to a Van Gogh painting, standing right up next to it, and then you see all these brushstrokes, and then you take a step back and you're like, okay, now I see the patterns of the brushstrokes. And you take a little step back, oh, the patterns form an image. Then another step back, you say, oh, that's a landscape. It really is like that with her writing. She has these images that she paints with words, and then they form bigger thoughts and you pull back and it's really amazing what she does and how she kind of reinvents herself with each piece. And so I'm so excited and honored she for you to join me here so I can really talk more about this with you. Thank you for coming. Sheila Heti: Yeah, thanks. That introduction made me so happy. Thank you for saying all that. Michael Jamin: Lemme tell you by the way, how I first discovered you. So I have a daughter, Lola, she's 20, she's a writer, and we trade. I write something we trade. It's really lovely that we get to talk about. And so she's off at school, but she left a book behind and I'm like, all right, what's this book she left behind? Because that way I can read it and we can talk about that, have our book club. And she left Pure Color. And I was like, oh, I like the cover, so I'll take a look at it. And what I didn't realize, it was the perfect book to discover you by because it's book about among other things, about a father's relationship with his daughter. So I text her, I say, I'm reading pure color. She goes, Sheila Hedy's, one of my favorite authors. If I could write anybody, it would be her. I'm like, all right, well, I got to continue reading this. And then a couple of days later, I get to the part and I send her a text. I say, you and me would make a great leaf. And she goes, that's my favorite part. The tree. That's my favorite part. You're also an interviewer. You've interviewed some amazing writers. Joan Didion, Margaret Atwood, big shots. And so I'm sure as an interviewer, you give a lot of thought to your first question. So I was trying to, I better give a lot of thought to my first question, and I kept coming back to the same one, which is pure color. It's such a big swing. If you were to pitch me this idea, you'd say, I'm going to write a book. It's about a father's relationship with his daughter, but it's also about a woman's unrequited love with her friend, but it's also about the soul and what it means to have a life. I'd say, I don't know, Sheila, that's kind of a big swing. I don't know about this, but you hit it out of the park, you did it. It was beautifully done. And so my first question is, you come up with an idea like this, where do you get the nerve to think that you can actually pull this off? This is really where do you get the nerve to think that, okay, I'm going to do this. Sheila Heti: The nerve. Michael Jamin: Well, it's such a big swing. It's like, how do you know you can do this? Do you know what I'm saying? Sheila Heti: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I could do it. So it's nice to hear. I mean, I don't think that you ever think you're going to be able to finish the book that you start, and then when you finish a book, you never think you're ever going to start a new one. That's sort of where I am right now. In that confused place. There's a part of it that always feels like, I dunno how to explain it. I mean, I don't know how to answer that question. It's a weird process. There's no process. There's no system to doing it, and then you hope you did it. You feel good and it feels done, but you dunno how you ever got there. Michael Jamin: And how do you know you arrived? How do you know when it's time to quit on something? And do you ever quit on something? Sheila Heti: Yeah. Yeah, A lot. A lot. But usually not like three or four years in, usually 60 pages in or something like that. Michael Jamin: 60 Sheila Heti: Pages is when you start thinking this is not working. Michael Jamin: Is it a gut feeling? How do you know Sheila Heti: Your curiosity runs out? Michael Jamin: Your curiosity runs out. Okay, so you get bored by it yourself? Sheila Heti: Yeah. Michael Jamin: Is that what you're saying? Sheila Heti: Yeah, it's just like, that was fun. That was nice. That was a good couple of weeks. I was really excited. I really thought this was going somewhere. And then it just ends. It's like a relationship. You think, oh, this is so great, I'm going to be with this person. And then after six months you're like, Michael Jamin: I was kidding myself. But you're writing. I have so much I want to say, it seems like you reinvent yourself with each piece. You know what I'm saying? It's like pure color is very, very different from how should a person be, which I was like, okay, I want to read this. I'm not sure how should a person be, which is extremely different from alphabetical diaries, which is almost like an experiment. And I wonder, do you get pushback from your agent or your publisher? Do they want you to do the same thing? We know it works. Sheila Heti: No, I think that at this point there's no expectation of that. When I wrote my second book, there was a feeling like that's not the first one. And there was some disappointment and the publisher said, this book doesn't count as your next book. In part, I think it was so different, but I think at this point that's, I mean, I've been publishing for 20 years. That's not really what people say to me anymore. Michael Jamin: Really? What do they say? They say, oh good, this is fresh. And it's more from you. Sheila Heti: No, I mean, I guess I changed publishers a lot more than other people do. So my publisher of motherhood didn't like pure color, so they rejected it. So I found a different publisher and the publisher of Tickner, my second book didn't like how should a person be? So I found a different publisher. So I think I move around a lot for that reason. Michael Jamin: Is that common with authors? You have to tell me all about this author thing? No, it's not really common. Sheila Heti: No. Usually you have one publisher and one editor and you just stick with them for a long time. So Michael Jamin: It seems though you came up through the art. Alright, I have this idea of who you are from reading your books. You have, it's all very personal what you write and which makes it brave. It's brave for a couple of reasons. It's brave because you're being so vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there, but it's also brave. I feel like you're trying something new each time and that could fail. And so that to me is part of what makes your writing so exciting. But do you have any expectation when you're writing something which is so different, do you have an expectation of your reader how you want them to react? Sheila Heti: I mean, I want them to get to the end of the book. That's what I want. I want to draw them through, but I don't think I have a feeling like, oh, I want them to be sad on this page and I want them to be curious of this page and feel this way on this page. I just want them to be interested enough to get to the end. So how do I keep that momentum up and how some people conversation, they have long monologues, they're like a monologue, but I'm not because I'm always afraid people are going to lose interest. So I kind of feel like the same with my book. I'm always afraid that somebody's going to lose interest. So I'm always trying to keep it moving, Michael Jamin: But it's not an emotional reaction. I mean, your writing is very philosophical to me. When I'm reading your work, I feel like maybe this is my theory about what you have, and I'm sure it's not right, but it's that there are passages which I feel are so rich and so smart, and I have so much thought that I have to go back and read it again. So I'm wondering if that's what you're thinking. I want to write something that makes people have to read it again. Sheila Heti: No, I never think that because a very fast reader, and I don't reread passages and I don't read slowly. So for me, I'm always thinking that people are reading. I'm always imagining the person reading kind of fast, Michael Jamin: But thought. I mean some of them are really, some of your thoughts are very deep and very profound, and I'm like, I'm not sure if I understood all this. I got to read it again. I mean, don't you think? No. Sheila Heti: Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I don't really think about that. I don't really think about the person, the reader in that way of like, are they going to have to read this again? Is this going to be hard for them to understand? I think my language is very straightforward. Yeah. I don't know how I think about the reader. I think of myself as the reader. So I'm really writing it so that I like every sentence. I like the way it turns. I like the pictures it makes. Michael Jamin: But when you say I want them to get to the end, what are you hoping they'll do at the end? Is there any hope or expectation? Sheila Heti: Well, I think especially in pure color, the end is really important. It kind of makes the whole book makes sense. And motherhood too, and maybe less how should a person be and less alphabetical diaries. But I think in some cases, a book, I'm somebody who doesn't always read books to the end. I like getting taste of different author's minds and so on. But I think in the case of some books, you have to read it to the end to really understand the whole, so that's in the case of pure color, why I wanted people to get to the end Michael Jamin: Because Sheila Heti: It makes the beginning mean something different. If you've read. Michael Jamin: It does. I mean it is, and it's about processing grief. So do you outline when you come up with an idea, where do you begin? Sheila Heti: Well, with pure color, I thought I want to write a book about the history of art criticism. So I always start off really far away from where I end up. I always think that I want to write a book of nonfiction and I'm not a good nonfiction writer, so it always ends up being a novel. But I think I usually start off with an, well, in the case of this book, I also started off with this title that I had in my dream. The title was Critics Bayer, BARE. So I was thinking about art criticism and so on, but then I don't know, the books kind of take on their own direction. I never really understood when people said that they had characters that sort of did things that they didn't expect. But I feel like that is true sometimes of the book as a whole. It moves in a direction I didn't expect, so I couldn't outline. Michael Jamin: You don't outline all. And so does it require you to discover what the story is then once you find it, toss out the stuff that's not the story or Sheila Heti: Yeah, I basically write way too much and then just cut and try to find the story and move things in different orders and try to find the plot after. I've written a ton of stuff already, Michael Jamin: Because I know from reading, you come from the art world, you're an artist and I think you hang out with artists, people, so you talk about what art is, is that right or no, do not shatter what I think of now. That's not it Sheila Heti: Mean and relationships and all that kind of Michael Jamin: Stuff and relationships. Because I mean, I don't know, it seems like that's why I say you're an artist. You have these conversations even about what art is. And do you draw inspiration from paintings when you approach? Sheila Heti: Yeah, I'm interested in the book as art. I think more than storytelling. I'm interested in the book as sort of an experience that you're undergoing in different way from just the experience of being told a story. I don't think that I'm so interested probably in the things that a lot of other novelists are interested in, character and plot and conflict and all those things. Michael Jamin: Well, it's really, I've heard you say this, it's really, you're writing various forms of you and it's very personal and very intimate. But you also made the distinction in something I read where there's Sheila, the author, then there's Sheila, the character. Is that right? Sheila Heti: Yeah. I mean, in two of the books there's kind of a character that sort of stands in a way for me, but it never really, it doesn't feel like a direct transcription of myself or my life or my thoughts. There's always this feeling of maybe it's like how actors are, there's a part of yourself that goes into the character and there's other parts of yourself that are left out. Michael Jamin: And so I was going to say, is there stuff about you that you leave out, for example? I mean, how should a person be? Or alphabetical diaries, it feels like we're talking about you, right? Sheila Heti: Yeah. Well, how should a person be felt? A lot like a character pretty, I was thinking about Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. This was like 2005, and Britney Spears and these kind of women in culture that were bad girls and doing things sort of the subject of so much attention and so narcissistic or considered Narcissistic and the Hills, which was a show that I really loved. And sort of thinking about this character in the book being a voice that was somewhere between me and those girls. So there was this, this layering on of personalities, which I'm not thinking about. What does it mean to try to be a celebrity? What does it mean to be one? To be looked at, to idolize oneself? Those are my diaries. So there wasn't a sense of a character in the same way, but because the sentences are separated from one another, I guess it's like I don't feel like I'm telling anybody anything about my life. There's no anecdote in there. Michael Jamin: But I see that's the thing. And we'll just talk about alphabetical diaries because you're telling with such an, let me tell people what it's, so it's basically an ordinary diary is chronological. This is what I did today and this is tomorrow, whatever. But you grouped your diary by the first letter of each sentence, which organized, and this is again, another high degree of difficulty. This could have easily been gimmicky, but it was a rethinking of what a diary is. And when I say patterns emerge, so for example, when you get to D, these was do not whatever or do this or that. So you hear, okay, so here's a person creating rules for themselves. And then an E was even though, so now they're creating rules, but creating exceptions for these rules, making allowances. And so what you have is, and was so interesting about it, many of these thoughts were contradictory. So you're painting a picture of this person, but in one sentence, okay, maybe she's dating this guy. And the next sentence, this other guy, I'm like, well, what's going on here? Then I realize, oh, this is not chronological. And so I'm getting a complete picture of this person, which is so interesting, but, so I know who I guess know who you are, but I don't know who you are today. I know who you are as this arching thing in your life, which is so fricking interesting. And that was where the thought process going into this, Sheila Heti: Yeah, mean. So it's like 10 years of diaries and I put it into Excel and the a z function. So it's completely alphabetical first letter of the sentence and then the second letter and the third letter. And it was just, I mean, I guess I wanted to see exactly that. What happens if you look at yourself in that way? Do you see patterns? Do you understand yourself in a different way? Not narratively, but as a collection of themes or Yeah, exactly. That a scientific or sort of a cross section of yourself. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Sheila Heti: And it worked that way. I think with the diaries, what you do see is, oh, there are sort of these recurring thoughts and these recurring themes and these recurring ways of perceiving the world and perceiving yourself that persists over 10 years. That actually the one self, you think of yourself as this thing that's constantly changing through time and especially a diary gives you that feeling, but then when you do it alphabetical, the self looks like a really static kind of thing in way, no, I'm actually just these few little bubbles of concerns that don't change, Michael Jamin: That keep recurring when, by the way, when people say everything's been done before everything's been written, it's like, well, you haven't read Sheila Heady. Start reading hers. This is different. This why's so interesting about, that's why I think you're such an amazing writer, and it totally worked. Totally. You get a picture of this person and the recurring themes and recurring worries and, and even one of them, some things that struck me, there was one passage where it's like you go into a bookstore and you're like, isn't this also novels? Isn't it also unimportant? And I'm like, no, if it was, you wouldn't be doing this. So this was just a thought that you had at one point. It's not how you feel. It's how you felt at this one moment, right? Sheila Heti: Yeah, yeah. Literary fiction. Yeah. Like what a little tiny thing that is. Michael Jamin: But when people, okay, so now we have this picture of you and when you go do, let's say book signings or whatever, and people come up to you, they must have a parasocial relationship with you where they feel they know you. Your writing is so intimate. And what's your response to that? Sheila Heti: I think that's nice. I mean, I think that that's kind of the feeling you want people to have is it is your soul or your mind or whatever that you're trying to give people. And so if somebody feels that they know you well, in a certain sense they do. I mean, obviously not that well, they know Michael Jamin: What you share, but there's, okay, I don't know what kind of music you like. I've read to all this stuff, but I know your insecurities and fears, but I don't know what you think is funny. I don't know what music you like. There's stuff you held back. Sheila Heti: Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. People aren't really very weird with me. Ed books or things, people are just pretty nice. And I never get this. I, I've rarely had interactions that feel creepy or weird or presumptuous or any of those things. Michael Jamin: Well, I'm not even going even that far, but they feel like they must feel like they know you certainly, but they know what you share. They know as much as you share. Right? Sheila Heti: These Michael Jamin: Kind of brave, bold decisions you make to create all this stuff. Is there a writer whose work you emulated in the beginning? Where do you begin to come up with this stuff? Was there someone who you wanted to write? Just like, Sheila Heti: I mean, I really loved Dostoevsky and Kafka and the heavy hitters. Yeah, I mean, I just loved all the greatest writers, Michael Jamin: But did you want to write like them? Sheila Heti: No, I mean, I think the closest I ever felt like I wanted to write a writer was, do you know Jane Bowles? BOW Elliot? She was married to Paul Bulls. Michael Jamin: No, to me, much of your work felt a little bit like it. Tall Cals, some of it works. Some of it was very ethereal and meditative. Sheila Heti: Yeah, I mean, I think Jane Bowles was the only one that I really felt myself imitating her sentences. She wrote a book called Two Serious Ladies, which I still really love. That was the only time when I felt like I was falling into somebody else's cadences and rhythms and so on. And Michael Jamin: What happened when Sheila Heti: That was with my first book, the Middle Stories, and then the second book was written was so different. The second book I wrote was in such a different style that left me, but maybe there's still a way in which I still do. I think she's probably the writer that I write the most, if anyone. But I mean, she only wrote one book. So it's a very different kind of life than the one that I've had. No, I'm just always just trying to keep myself interested. So I think that I don't ever want to, I a very, I just want it to be fun for me. And so if I was to write the same book again, it wouldn't be fun. And books take five years to Write, or this diary book took more than 10 years to edit. So by the time I'm done a book, no, I'm such a different person than I was in some way when I started, even though I just said that you don't really change, but there's a way in which you get tired of thinking about the same things over, Michael Jamin: But then you think it would be hard to not constantly tinker with it. Isn't that part of the problem? Sheila Heti: I like constantly tinkering with it. That's fun. Michael Jamin: But then you have to let go. But how do you let go of it though? Sheila Heti: Well, at a certain point you start making it worse. You're like, oh, I think I'm starting to make it worse. You start to become self-conscious, and then you start to want to correct it, and then you start to want it to sort of be the person that you are today rather than the person you were five years ago. But you've got to honor the person that was five years ago that started the book. So you can't carry it on so far that you become, you've changed so much that now you're a critic of the book that's going to destroy the book. Michael Jamin: Yeah. See, that's so interesting. That's something I think about quite a bit. Yeah. How do I just let it go? And that someone else, it's funny when you talk about the language, because that's one thing that struck me about pure color. Your sentences are written in very, they're very, it's kind of brief, very, I dunno what the best way to describe it, but it's almost terse. And to be honest, if you had told, as I'm reading this, I could have thought this was said 150 years ago, and then occasionally you say you make a reference to something modern Google, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this takes space today. So that was a conscious, obviously decision that you made to kind of give it a timelessness. Sheila Heti: Yeah, I always kind of want that because I think that's my hope for a book is that it could be understood in a hundred years or 500 years, or you need Plato today, you want to write something that people could understand in a thousand years. Michael Jamin: But you know what I'm saying, the language, it almost felt, but your language is different though, in an alphabetical diary. Well, obviously since it's a diary, but man, so to me it's like you're not doing, like I said, you're not doing the same thing. I don't know, it could have been two different authors. That's what I'm saying. I guess it felt like two very different pieces and it was just wonderful. But when you say, so what then? Because like I said, you have these art friends, I have this whole life for you, you have these because you went to art, you studied art, and you hang out with a bunch of artists and you talk about art, and I want to know what these conversations are because we don't talk about art and TV writing. No one, we don't think we're doing art, but I feel like that's what you guys are doing. So do you talk about what the whole point of art is? Sheila Heti: I think I did when I was younger, Michael Jamin: Right? Then you grew Sheila Heti: Out of it when I was in my twenties. And then you kind of figure that out for yourself in some way. Well, then you have your crises and whatever, and then you got to think about it and talk about it again. But no, I think these days what I talk about with my friends is just whatever the specific project is, whatever problems you're having with a specific thing, mostly complaining, the difficulty of not being able to pull it off or feeling like you are stuck or you're never going to be able to write it. I have these three other writers that I share my work with we're meeting tomorrow. So before I got on the call with you, I just sent something off to them, and tomorrow we're just going to have read each other's things and talk about how we feel about it. But for me, I'm just like, I think what I need at this point from them is reassurance, honestly. Michael Jamin: Reassurance, Sheila Heti: Yeah. Because you're so lost in the middle and you don't know what you're communicating and if you're communicating anything, and is it worth continuing? Should it just all be thrown out? There's so much doubt Michael Jamin: Because it's so very humble of you. You're a master writer, and yet you make it sound like you're still a student. You know what I'm saying? Sheila Heti: I mean, you think, I don't know if it's the same for you, but don't you think you're always kind of a student? Because Michael Jamin: Whenever you start, yeah, yeah. Look, yes. When every time you're looking at that blank page, I dunno how to do any of this. Sheila Heti: Yeah, exactly. You always feel like you're back at square one somehow. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Sheila Heti: Although now, not exactly square one. I've been starting this new book this week, and again, it may get to 60 pages and fall away from me, but now I have a different feeling that I had when I was in my early twenties. The feeling I have now is like, oh, I did that. Oh, I've had that thought before. Oh, I've written senses in that way before. What I'm trying to do now is none of the things that I've already done. They just, and so, yeah, where is this part of myself that I haven't written from yet? So that's kind where I'm now. So it's not really starting from square one, but it's still just as hard, Michael Jamin: Right? Because you feel like you've said everything you had to say or done everything you wanted. Is that what it is? Or, Sheila Heti: I know what my sentences sound like, so I feel like, oh, I'm not surprised by that sentence. That sounds like a sentence that my, I feel like I'm, you get this rhythm that is very pleasurable to write if the sentences have a rhythm, but now I'm just like, I'm tired of that rhythm. That rhythm can only give me one kind of sentence or one kind of thought. So I'm trying to figure out what else is there inside. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I imagine that's hard for someone. Basically, you're a physician who's made a hit and another hit, and what if I don't do it again? How do I do it differently? Or how do I reinvent myself now? Sheila Heti: And even just what's the meaning in this for me now? With every book, there's a different phase of life you're at. And I'm 46 now, so I dunno how old you are. Michael Jamin: How dare you? I'm 53. Sheila Heti: Yeah, I figured you were just a few years older than me. So it's a very different age to write from because you are not hungry in the same way you were when you were 23 and you were both in houses. You have accomplished certain things. And so what's the deepest part of yourself that still needs to do this when you're 23? Every part of yourself needs to do it in this extreme way. You've got to make a life for yourself. You've got to prove to yourself, you can do it. You've got to make money, you've got to all this kind of stuff. So what's the place at 46 or 53 that you're writing from that is just as vital and urgent as that place at 23? Michael Jamin: Yeah, I think actually that's why I started changing mediums. I've kind of done this headcount thing. What else can I do? Sheila Heti: So the essay, the podcast? Yeah. Michael Jamin: Well, most of the essays, the essay started the whole thing. It was like, it's funny, in your book or a couple of times, you mentioned, should I go to LA? And I'm thinking, why does she want to go to la? What was that about? What's Sheila Heti: That about? I've got family there. When I was a little kid, my parents used to put me on a plane. I was five years old and I'd be sent to LA and I had relatives and I would stay with them. And it was just, to me, it's such happy childhood memories and I just love Los Angeles. Whenever I go back, I think this is a place in the world besides Toronto that I'd most like to live. Michael Jamin: Really? So different. Sheila Heti: Yeah. I just love it. Yeah, so I love everything. I love it. Michael Jamin: Oh my God, I don't what, I've been to Toronto. I had, well, then I Sheila Heti: Remember that LA's in America, and then I like, no, maybe not. Michael Jamin: Yeah, good point. Good point. So there's something else. I remember what I wanted, what I want to say. You had in one book, it was like, you're lamenting. I hope I never have to teach. And now you're teaching, right? Sheila Heti: Yeah, just for this one year. Michael Jamin: Okay. What was that about that decision? Sheila Heti: Well, I love teaching and I wanted the money because I didn't want to have to feel like I had to rush to start a new book. So I just wanted a year where I didn't have to have that anxiety of what's my next book going to be like, I've got to start. I've got to get a certain ways in and then sell it. And I like teaching a lot, and I just felt excited about the idea, but it was supposed to be a two year position, and now I've just changed it to a one year position. It becomes too much, even one day. And teaching a week is like, there's no point to write Michael Jamin: Because you have to read all the whatever they write on the side. You're saying, well, Sheila Heti: I've got to commute two hours to get there, and then two hours home, and then, I don't know. And then your brain just sort of stays in that university space with your students for three or four days, and then you have two days where you're not with them and then you go back to school. Michael Jamin: So what does your life really look like? Your writing life? What is it like to be an author on a dayday basis? Sheila Heti: What your life is all day long? You're either writing emails or you're writing writing. Probably spend more time writing emails and doing correspondence and businessy stuff than writing. Writing, and then all the life stuff, walking the dog, doing household chores. I don't have a very regimented existence, but I just sitting in bed and being on my computer, that's sort of my Michael Jamin: Favorite. That's where you write on laptop. Oh my God, my back would kill me. But something else you said, because I really was turning to you for answers as I was reading it. I'm like, she's got the answers. And you said, and you're like, I don't have the answers, but no, I'm like, no, she's got the answers. And you said, art must have at one point, art must have humor. I think you said that in How should a person be? And I was like, really? That's what you guys think. There has to be humor in art. Sheila Heti: Oh yeah. You got to know where the funny is. Yeah, I think, Michael Jamin: Sure. I don't Sheila Heti: Understand. It's the two. I read your essay. It was very funny. Michael Jamin: Yeah. But thank you. But I have an intention. I have an intention when I write, but I don't understand why you think there has to be humor. Alright. Why do you think there has to be humor it in art? Sheila Heti: Humor's such a part of life. I mean, if you don't have humor in life or art, you're missing a huge part of the picture. I mean, it's all, it's just the absurdity of being a human. It's, Michael Jamin: Well, see the thing as a sitcom writer, look, I'm grateful to have made a living as a sitcom writer. It's what I wanted to do, but it's not like anyone looks at what we do. It's like, oh, that's high art. They go, it's kind of mostly, people think it's kind of base. And I think, and when you think about even at the Oscars, when they're fitting the best picture, it's never a comedy. It's that the comedies are not important enough. And so that's why I had this feeling like, well, can humor be an art? Can it be, I Sheila Heti: Mean, I think great art always has humor in it, but it's the same thing in literature. The funny writers are not as respected as the serious ones, but I think that they're wrong. I mean, Kurt Vonnegut, I love Kurt Vonnegut. He's extremely funny, but he's never had the same status as somebody like, I dunno, Don DeLillo or whatever, because he's not serious enough. But I think it's a very, who are the people that are making that judgment? That the solemn writers that have no humor are the best writers. They're just idiots. I mean, it's not the case. Michael Jamin: I gave my manuscript to one publisher. I was rejected from him, and he wrote, he was very kind. He goes, oh, this book really works. I like it, but it's not high literature. And we do high literature here. And I was like, how dare you? I was like, well, I totally agree. It's not high literature. Not that I could write high literature, but I didn't set out to do. But there was still that sting of what you're doing is not important because it's funny. Sheila Heti: Yeah. That's a stupid editor. Michael Jamin: Well, he got the last laugh. Wait a minute, wait a minute. But yeah, I don't know. Okay. But is humor in painting and humor in all art? I mean, Sheila Heti: Yeah, levity. Well, just that scent, that aspect of life. That is the laugh that is that bubbling up laughing. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's joy. Joy and humor are very closely connected. And a work of art without humor is a work of art without joy Michael Jamin: And Sheila Heti: Wants to take that in. Michael Jamin: Then what is art? I'm honest here. You learned this when you're 20 and I haven't learned it yet. So what is art to you and what's the difference between good art and bad art? Sheila Heti: It's a reflection of the human experience. It's like an expression of what it feels like to be a human, that a human is making for another human. Michael Jamin: Okay, so it's this interpretation of what you feel, what it means to be human, is that right? Sheila Heti: It's an expression of what you feel like it means to be human. Michael Jamin: Right. Okay. And then how do you Sheila Heti: That in an object? Michael Jamin: And then how do you know if it's good art or bad art? Sheila Heti: I mean, there's no consensus, right? You liked pure color, but a lot of people don't. There's just no consensus because it touched you, but somebody else thinks it's the worst book they've ever read, and that's okay. I mean, I think that that's right. We can't all speak to each other. We're not all here for all of each other. Michael Jamin: Oh, just because you mentioned that it was so touching this one moment, it really hit me where you explain how you felt the father, how his love for his daughter was so much that it put pressure on her not to have her life because her life was so important to him. And I thought, oh crap, I hope I'm not doing that because my feeling is no, it's just pure love. It's an expression of pure love. But from the other side, I can see that. Sheila Heti: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's what I was thinking about in that book. That's the sort of tragedy of Michael Jamin: Yes, Sheila Heti: Families and friendships and so on, that we want to love each other, but we can't in the way that we want to. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Michael Jamin: It was just so beautiful to express that as two souls stuck in a leaf, where is this coming from? It felt completely appropriate, but also almost out of the blue. And that's what was so amazing about that whole section. Thanks. Sheila Heti: Yeah. I don't even remember where that idea came to me. I don't know if you feel like this with your writing, but sometimes you remember exactly where an idea came from. You can even picture yourself being right there having it, and sometimes you almost have anesia around it, Michael Jamin: Really? And what about the part? There was so many lovely moments of this woman working in a lamp store, and she has to turn the lamps on every single lamp on, and it's almost like, I got to do this, but there's her counterpart who has to turn the lamps off at the end of the day, something equally horrible. It was really funny, and it was just, I don't know. Did you ever work in a lamp store? Sheila Heti: No. No. But there was this lamp store that I used to pass on the way to one of my first jobs, and I would look in the window, and I did eventually buy a lamp from that store with all the money I had in the world. But I never worked in a lamp store, but I was obsessed with this lamp. I really thought it was going to change my life. Michael Jamin: And do you still have it? Sheila Heti: No. It got broken in a Michael Jamin: Fit of Sheila Heti: Rage situation. Yeah, it got broken rage. Michael Jamin: I was stuck on a paragraph I wrote against this important list. It Sheila Heti: Was in the box on the floor, and somebody stepped on it. And anyway, it's sad, but whatever. Michael Jamin: Okay. But alright. So much of it felt like, yeah. Okay. So it was a version of you that wasn't exactly, but where was this coming from? You said you had a point you were making. I don't remember Sheila Heti: Where, because at some parts you remember where they came from and some parts you just Michael Jamin: Kind of pull out of, pull Sheila Heti: Out of. You don't remember how they came about? Michael Jamin: Yeah. I don't know. I always feel like when I'm writing, if there's an idea that has a strong emotional reaction, like, okay, maybe there's something there. Sheila Heti: A strong emotional reaction in you. Michael Jamin: Yeah. In me. I have a terrible memory, but if I remember something, why do I remember it? There must be a reason. Sheila Heti: You have a terrible memory too, Michael Jamin: And you wouldn't know it, but I guess you document everything in your diary. Sheila Heti: I mean, the diary is usually not about things that happened. It's more about the feelings that I'm having in the moment that I'm writing it. I wish that my diary was more about things that happened Michael Jamin: Really Well, you get to decide what you put in your diary. Sheila Heti: I know usually when one writes a diary, it's because you're in a moment of high emotion that you need to get your feelings out. Michael Jamin: Do you write every day in your diary? Sheila Heti: No. No, no. Just when I need to. And I don't even really do it anymore now. Michael Jamin: Interesting. Yeah, there is. There's something else you said about it. Yeah. There's so many moments that were so interesting. Like you said at one point that the men you date don't understand you. I'm like, well, don't they read your book? I mean, why don't you just give 'em your book and didn't understand you? Sheila Heti: No, I mean, I don't know. Michael Jamin: You don't know. We'll get back to, I don't Sheila Heti: Even think that it's really all Yeah, like you were saying earlier, it's not really you. It's just an expression of a corner of you. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I don't know. But do you really feel that? I mean, I'm going back and forth. You'll see I contradict myself, but what you write is so to me, it feels so personal. I don't know how it cannot be you. Sheila Heti: I mean, I don't know. When I'm working on it, it doesn't feel like me. It just feels like writing on a page. It feels very plastic. I don't feel like it's me. Michael Jamin: So there's no, wow, because there's no inhibition there because it's very intimate. There's no inhibition. You don't feel to be judged. This is just a character named Sheila, by the way. Sheila Heti: I mean, I just don't think about it. Just I have this, that part of my brain is not awake when I'm editing or writing that people that are going to think it's me Michael Jamin: Or whatever. Well, that's bold. That really is bold because the notion that you're not worried about being judged, you're not worrying about expressing Sheila Heti: Yourself. I worry about being judged for an email that I send. That's a stupid email much more than I ever worry about a book. Michael Jamin: Really? Really? Yeah. Your book is permanent and it's your art. Sheila Heti: But I have so much control over it. I have so much. I take so much time with it. It's not spontaneous. It's really thought through. So I'm not, and it's art. It's not me. An email is me. A book is not, it's its own thing. Michael Jamin: Okay. How should a person be? I mean, this to me felt like this is your struggle. It was really interesting when it was a narrative struggle about a woman trying to find herself in a brief period of time. And I felt like, no, this is you. Right? Sheila Heti: I mean, it doesn't really feel like that. No. Michael Jamin: Alright. This interview's over. That's why I think when I said, you're brave, I think that's what makes you brave, is that this fearlessness of I can put it out there and I'm not really worried about it. Sheila Heti: Yeah. I just don't care. I care about being judged as a human in the world, as a person, but not through my books, not through your I care about it and Oh, she's wearing a really stupid outfit. I care about it in all those ways that everybody does, but not via the books. Not as the books as a portal to judgment about me. Michael Jamin: Wow. Wow. I I don't know if you know how profound that is. To me. It really is. Yeah, because it gives you so much freedom to write then. Sheila Heti: Yeah. I mean, but fiction is different from essays. I think with essays you do feel like it's you, but with novels you don't. Or I don't, Michael Jamin: Yeah. But I guess, and I didn't really know this term, it's auto nonfiction, which I guess is this term. I was not familiar with Sheila Heti: Auto fiction. They call it Michael Jamin: Auto fiction. That's what I meant. Auto fiction. Yeah. And so Sheila Heti: I like auto nonfiction though. I think that's how it should start to be called. Michael Jamin: Really? Yeah. Just by my dumbest. Yeah. But when you call it auto itself, so I don't know. Sheila Heti: Yeah, I didn't give it that term. The critics give it that term, auto fiction, but all writing is auto fiction. All writing comes from yourself. It's a really silly term, but I mean, they guess they use it for people that write characters that have their name. Which again, that's only, and how should a person be? Does the character have my name? None of the other books. Michael Jamin: Well, okay, but Well, the Sheila Heti: Diaries, obviously Michael Jamin: The diaries, but also I also know that pure color was taken from your life. I mean, we know that in Sheila Heti: A lot of Michael Jamin: Ways. So I also want to know about this, and I know I'm concentrating on how should person, well, on both of 'em I guess. But this play that you were commissioned to write, how does that work that you were tortured by throughout the whole book? You felt like you couldn't come up with anything good. How does that come about? So a local theater said, will you write us a play? Sheila Heti: Yeah, yeah. Michael Jamin: And it was their idea. Sheila Heti: Yeah. Yeah. They commissioned a play for me, Michael Jamin: But they said, I mean, this is what we want it to be about. Or they said right about Sheila Heti: It was a feminist theater company, and they said it could be about anything as long as it was about women in it. And I really had the hardest time. I mean, I wrote a play, I'm sure you experienced this in Hollywood, and then there was a lot of notes. And in theater we call it dramaturgy. And I got so confused and I just couldn't make the play better from the notes. And it was just this torture, because when you're writing a book, or at least in my case, editors aren't like that. They're not giving you their notes to make the book something other than what you want it to be. But in theater, what's this character's motivation? Why does this happen here? There was just so much feedback and I just lost my sense of what I liked about it and what it was. Michael Jamin: And then how did you find it ultimately? You were happy with it, weren't you? Sheila Heti: Ultimately, I just, when it got put on a couple years after, how should a person be was published, it was just my original draft. So I never ended up editing it according to any of the notes in the end. Michael Jamin: Wow. So you won that battle? Sheila Heti: I guess so you did. It wasn't them who put it on. It was some other, some kid. Michael Jamin: Oh, Sheila Heti: I mean, he's not a kid anymore, but he seemed like a kid at the time. Michael Jamin: But you also do something called trampoline hall, which struck me as really fun. It seems like you're just part of this artwork. You make art. Well, I don't care what it is. Let's just do something weird and interesting until trampoline hall, which I love the premise of it's you say people deliver lectures on subjects they don't know anything about. Sheila Heti: Is that what it's, it's not their area of professional expertise. So they can do, oh, Michael Jamin: So they are experts. Sheila Heti: They can do research for their talk. It's just that it can't be their professional expertise. Michael Jamin: So they're not talking out of the rests. They're talking to about if they know No. Oh, okay. Sheila Heti: They do the research. Yeah. And then there's, so the talk lasts about 15 minutes, and then there's a q and a, and then So there's three of those and night, and yeah, it's been running once a month in Toronto since December, 2000 or 2001. Them. I haven't been involved in it. You them? Oh, no, no. I mean, I started it, and my friend Misha Goberman is and was the host, but after about three or four years, I left around 2005 or so. But he still keeps it going. So now I used to pick the three people every month, and I just used to, when I was in my twenties, I had crushes on people all the time. And it was fascinated by people in such a way that it was a way of having these friendships where I would go out with them and talk about what their talk was going to be about, and then I'd see them on stage. And it was just a way of being with people. My life is not really like that anymore, where I'm coming into contact with so many people that I just have to have a show and put them on stage. I find 'em so fascinating. And the culture's changed because again, in the early two thousands, there weren't, the internet wasn't what it is. And I just felt like there's all these smart people with all these interesting things to say, and nobody's paying any attention to them. And here's a venue for them. You obviously don't need that, a barroom lecture series for people to have a voice in this culture anymore. Yeah, Michael Jamin: Right. That's right. Now you deal with students, young people. And so what's your take then, as an artist, as you deal with people of this younger generation? What do you see? Sheila Heti: I don't know. I mean, I only see them through a very narrow lens. You don't show your teacher that much of your life. I see them sitting in a classroom for two and a half hours once a week. I've only done it for seven weeks. Michael Jamin: But you read their work or you pretend to? Sheila Heti: I read it. There's not that much. I mean, I don't know. You can't really generalize about a generation. Every person's different. Michael Jamin: One of the stories in my book is about that. It was about me trying to, being in a creative writing class, trying to impress my teacher, and just having no idea how to write, just none. And feeling complete. You're smiling. You can relate or you see it. Sheila Heti: Well, because I'm smiling, because yeah, that's how people feel. And it's sort of a failure of the way that creative writing is taught that makes a person feel like they can't write Michael Jamin: Well. Okay. So what's the first thing you tell? What's the most important thing you tell your students then maybe? Sheila Heti: Well, I try to show them all these examples of, so-called bad writing and stuff that's intentionally boring and that's badly put together because I just think it's a better route. You're more likely to become a good writer if you are trying to do something bad than if you're trying to do something good. If you're reading the greatest writers and you're trying to emulate them, and you're all intimidated and blocked and nervous, and you're trying to write in a style that has nothing to do with yourself. Michael Jamin: So then how does showing them something bad help? Do you say, go ahead and write or write. What's the point of showing them something Sheila Heti: Bad? I don't want 'em to try to write. Well Michael Jamin: Write Well, you don't, but you don't want 'em to write schlocky or poorly written stuff either. Sheila Heti: I'd rather have them write basic. I don't know. I just think when you're trying to impress, when you're writing to try to impress somebody, it's just you're starting off on completely the wrong foot. I want them their writing. So for example, in this class, one of the first experiments we did was I told them to go into their messages, their text messages, threads, and to copy out every single text message that they'd sent and put that in a document and make it a long sort of monologue, because that is actually what they write. That is what they're writing. You got to start from what you're actually saying and what you're actually writing, not this imaginary idea of what writing is. Michael Jamin: Right, right, right. That's exactly right. So there's this thought of what writing should be and what writing, how get, I guess, how did you get over that, especially when you were writing your favorite authors were the greats. How did you find the confidence to have your own voice, I guess? Sheila Heti: Well, when I was young, when I was a teenager, I read all the Paris Review interviews, and I just got the sense like, oh, there's no way to do it no one way. Everyone has their own way. Faulkner has his way, and Dorothy Parker has her way, and John au has his way, and there's just no consensus. And so you just have to figure out your own way. That's what they all did. I just sort of saw that's what each one of them had done. Michael Jamin: See, that's where I struggled with, and you're getting my therapist now and my creative writing teacher when I was starting to write this book. Because as a TV writer, my job is not to have a voice. My job is to emulate the voice of the show or the characters. And I'm a copy. I'm a mimic. That's what I do. And that's what I've been doing for 27 years. And then to write, this was an experiment to me. What would it be like to write just whatever I want to write with no notes, no one telling me what to do. And it was very scary in the beginning. And it was very, I loved David Sari. How can I do him? And so I wrote a couple of pieces. I studied him, I read all, I've studied books over and over again. He was so entertaining. He writes so beautifully. And I read it over and over again, and I wrote my first pieces, almost like I was doing him. And I felt, oh, this is good. And then I let it sit for a couple of weeks, and then I read it with fresh eyes. And this is terrible. It sounds like someone pretending to be him is terrible. Sheila Heti: Yeah, yeah. But that's a stage that you still probably learned a bunch by doing that, maybe about structure or about something. Michael Jamin: No, not that I learned that I felt like I was a pretender, but my thought was, well, he's doing it. He's successful. I write and now I perform my pieces as well, which is what, and I tore a little bit, and I thought, well, if it works for him, why reinvent the wheels? He's obviously got a market. And then I realized I had to come to the conclusion that it was almost heartbreaking. I can never write like him. I can't, no matter much. I want to, it'll never happen. And then I had to let go of that, and then had to come to the more, even a larger, heartbreaking realization was like, oh, I have to write me. And who the hell is that? Sheila Heti: And how did you find it? Michael Jamin: It was a lot of just drafts after draft. And then the problem, and this is something else, but I find some of the earlier pieces are very different from the later pieces. And I've tempted to go back and change the earlier ones. But like you're saying, I'm also tempted. I feel like I can't, can't, it's time to let 'em go. Sheila Heti: Right. That was that person. Michael Jamin: But it's all in the same book, and it felt like, well, should there be any kind of, is that okay? Is it okay to feel like each one's a little different from the other? I don't know. Sheila Heti: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, are the early ones still good, even if they're different? Michael Jamin: Yeah, I think they're good. I'm not sure if anyone else would notice except for me, but I noticed Sheila Heti: Maybe not. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And I think it's okay if they're a little different from each other. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I don't, well, we'll find out. But that was very difficult for me to figure out how to, and I turned a lot to, and I wonder if you do this, you kind of answered a little bit. I didn't want to turn to other writers. I turned to musicians to music. Do you do that as Sheila Heti: Well? Which musicians? Michael Jamin: It was turning to musicians to find out what is art? What am I supposed to be doing here? Yeah. Sheila Heti: I always look to painters for that. Michael Jamin: So painter, is it contemporary painters or Sheila Heti: Contemporary or not contemporary? Michael Jamin: And how do you pull, what are you looking for them? Yeah. When you look at a painting, how does that help you? Sheila Heti: Well, how does it help you to look at musicians? Michael Jamin: Well, there's two things with music, and I feel like music is too, they're telling us, they get to tell a story with lyrics and with music. So if you didn't hear the lyrics, maybe you'd still get the sentiment of it. And so I feel like they have two tools where we only have one because they can set a mood just for the tune. And so I looked to them for the intimacy in their bravery. You'd look, okay, Stevie Nicks, she's singing about herself. That's all she's doing. And okay, you can do that. It just felt so vulnerable to be doing this. Sheila Heti: Yeah. Michael Jamin: And that's why I'm shocked that you're so brave about it. Sheila Heti: I mean, it's the only job is to not care about yourself in relation to it, that the book matters. And you don't matter. Michael Jamin: Right. That's your job is to put the art first. Right. Sheila Heti: To not do things because worried about what people will think of you. That's the first. And I guess when I was younger, I was reading so many avant-garde writers that did that in such flamboyant ways. It just seemed to me the only Henry Miller, it just seemed to me maybe the first lesson, not even a conscious lesson, just like, oh, clearly he's not worried about what people are going to think of him or his reputation among decent people. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Right. And so you don't have that, obviously, you don't have that worry. Sheila Heti: No, but I don't know. A lot of decent people. Michael Jamin: Yes, you do. But yeah, I don't know. Again, it's what makes you, I don't know, such a fantastic writer. I mean, I want everyone to read your work because it's really fantastic. I have some questions here that I have to ask from. So my daughter, Lola, I tell her she's a way better writer than I was at her age. But the truth is, she may be a better writer than I'm now, but I don't tell her that part. But she has these questions. She put down some questions like, damn, you've got some good questions. So I can't take credit. I can't take credit for this question. Give Sheila Heti: Me Lowes questions. Michael Jamin: Okay. First of all, she says, what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? Oops. I dropped a rock. Sheila Heti: My dreams. You dropped a rock. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I dropped. I have magic crystals by my computer that are supposed to make my work better. Sheila Heti: Oh, what kind of rock is that? Michael Jamin: It came out of my head. You want some? Yeah. I don't know. They're magic, but they're on my computer. So what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? And I guess what she means is, I guess, ambitions at the age You were talking about that young age. Sheila Heti: Young. Yeah. How old is she? 20. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Sheila Heti: When I was 20, my dream was to be the best living writer, just to be the best novelist, just to work harder than any other writer alive. That's what I was thinking. It Michael Jamin: Was work harder. Sheila Heti: I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive. Michael Jamin: That's what I was. And what did that work look like to you? Sheila Heti: Just always writing and always not being satisfied, and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better, and trying to try to get it to sound more interesting and figure out what my sentences were, and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I am not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. But I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way it's going to work. Michael Jamin: Yeah. That importance. Yeah, because Sheila Heti: It's just so hard. It's just so hard to write. Well, to write anything good for people. Michael Jamin: I think you give the perfect answer on that. I'll give her another the Sheila Heti: Parental answer. In any case, work hard. Michael Jamin: Work hard. Well, but it was really, Sheila Heti: It's true. I think it's true that, and I remember being her age and interviewing this older Canadian writer, Barbara Gowdy, who I really loved, and she told me, and she's terrific. She told me, I was writing for the student newspaper, and she said, it's funny, I've got my students who have talent, clear talent, and then I've got these other students who don't seem to have so much talent, but the ones who don't so much talent work really hard, and they end up doing better than the ones that have talent. And I thought, oh, I never even would've known that. I would've thought that. I didn't know that hard work meant could mean more than talent. So hopefully you have talent, and then you can also make the choice to talent Michael Jamin: Work. And you learned this at a young age, you're saying this Sheila Heti: Part? I mean, my mother was also just very strict about working hard Michael Jamin: Right. Sheila Heti: Studies and stuff. Michael Jamin: Interesting. Yeah. She's a delian mom. Hungarian. Sheila Heti: Yeah. Michael Jamin: Do you speak any Hungarian? Sheila Heti: No. Do you? No. Michael Jamin: No, I don't. But I do know there's a Hungarian expression that really helped me. I'll tell you what it is. So do you speak any other languages? Sheila Heti: No, Michael Jamin: No, no. That's your next task. I wrote about this in one of my stories as well. There's a Hungarian expression where it says, okay, so let me take it back. So I learned to speak Spanish as a teenager and then Italian as an adult. So each time when you learn a new language that you're not born into, there's that moment where it's like it's really hard to talk. It takes months and months, and then finally one day you open your mouth and the words just come out without thinking just like that magic. And it's turning on a light bulb. And I've had a hard time explaining to people what that feels like. But then I discovered a Hungarian expression, which said it perfectly. It says, when you learn a little language, you gain a new soul. And I thought, that's exactly what it feels like, because you're talking, you're like, who is this? I don't speak this language. Who am I? That's incredible. And you talk about soul so much in your work. I thought maybe that's something you had experienced. Sheila Heti: I never got that far. I mean, I studied French and I never got close to a new soul. I didn't have always translation. Michael Jamin: You're always translating in your head, Sheila Heti: Right? Yeah. Michael Jamin: It's just that moment, like, I don't know who I am. And then you find yourself reacting differently. And also using, if I find myself, I can't say, I don't know how to say this, so I'll say it this way, which is not how I would talk, because that's the only way I can express it. And then you're a different person. That's so neat. Yeah. Sheila Heti: Wonder people love learning languages. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it really is. Anyway, your mom must know she came up with it. Okay. So let me give her another question. Question. Okay. This is a good one. Okay. How do you tow the line between explaining what you mean by your writing? For example, the entire tree portion of pure color and just letting it be, even if that means being misinterpreted or confusing people. How do you tow the line between explaining? Sheila Heti: Don't really explain. I think I spend very little time explaining, Michael Jamin: But are you worried that it might be misinterpreted you people to understand your thoughts? Sheila Heti: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think if the intention is there, if it's a clear intention when you're writing, then you're maybe not going to be misinterpreted as much as you think. And the intention is something that you can't really analyze. You can't take it apart, take a sentence apart and say where the intention was. But I do have that feeling that when writers are writing with a really strong intent, emotional or not emotional, just that it's coming from something very powerful inside, then it's less likely to be interpreted than one might fear. I don't think that I go in for much explaining. Michael Jamin: Well, when you share your work with a friend, do you say, Hey, do you get what I'm going for here? Sheila Heti: I mean, when you share your work, then people say what they're getting from it. And usually it's not that. Usually the problem I have is not that they're not getting what I don't usually feel like the problem with readers is misinterpretation. I think usually the problem is that it's not interesting. It's not compelling. It's not, rather than it's they're getting something completely different from what you intended. Michael Jamin: Because see, in TV writing, I often think the difference between smart writing and maybe not smart writing is not that much. It's just whether you're explaining it or not. If you don't explain it, you're making the audience work. And then they think, oh, this must be smart. I figured it out. Sheila Heti: Right. Michael Jamin: And dumb writing, you just, Hey, spell it out. But that's not something that's your concern, I guess. Sheila Heti: I mean, I just don't want to ever, I think I've always, always been, ever written the connective tissue that other writers put in. I have this feeling if I am not interested in writing it, it probably doesn't need to be written. And maybe that's not true, but I always don't want to feel obliged to write something just for the reader. If I don't have a need to write it myself, then I don't think it should be on the page. That's why I think I'm not so good at writing nonfiction, because nonfiction is very much about serving the reader with explanation. Michael Jamin: Right. Well, but there's some moments where I tend to race through moments which I shouldn't race through. So I am conscious of that's like go back and write it and make sure it lands and take, this is not a sentence. You better step it out with a paragraph or something. But that's not something that even, that's why I think you're more artful when you're writing. Sheila Heti: I don't know. I try to skip it. I just don't want to put something down on the page if it doesn't also have some need from myself to be written. I just don't want to write something just for the reader to just for the reader, get two parts to, I had a friend, I remember we were much younger. He was like, how do you get people out of rooms? I was like, why do you need to get them out of the room? But he felt like he had to put every step in. Michael Jamin: Right, right. And you'll just take a jump. Sheila Heti: If you don't feel like writing them leaving the room, then just, yeah. I think, yeah, it was just such a different thing that I never thought the reader doesn't need to see them leave the room. It's sort of like that with lots of things. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I agree with you. It's hard to know. I think I agree with your friend, though. It's hard to know what to put in, what to put out, how much handhold, because I don't think I really feel like when reading you, I feel like you're pulling us through a trail. You're holding us by the hand, but you're walking ahead. And then sometimes you wait for us to catch up, and then you move ahead, and then we're catching up to you, but then you'll stop and you wait for us. So I felt taken care of as a reader. That's nice. Yeah. But it turns out you weren't trying to take care of me at all. You were just writing the way you write, right? Sheila Heti: No, I mean, I want it to make sense. I want it to make sense. Of course. It's just like how much sense does a person need? But I'm also think that, well, everyone's going to like my books. I started taking it as a given that probably half the people, and that's okay. I'd rather have a third of the people really, or quarter of the people, or 10th of the people really love it. And then the rest not really get it. So I don't think that, I'm trying to write the kind of books Michael Jamin: You did in one of your pieces. You did mention that you felt compelled to write something with a little more commercial appeal at one point Sheila Heti: In the diary. I said Michael Jamin: That, yeah. Maybe might've been the diary. Sheila Heti: Yeah. I mean, always when you're young, you're always trying to figure out, how am I going to make money? But also, you can't even, that's hard. It's hard to write something with commercial appeal. It's not as easy as it sounds. Michael Jamin: Well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess, I don't know. To me, writing something, people Sheila Heti: Think, oh, I'll just write some dumb popular book. But it's like those, Michael Jamin: It's Sheila Heti: Something that people really want. Michael Jamin: Yeah, that's true. I agree with you there. But I also feel, whatever this is next level, like I said, I don't know where you begin to think that this is going to work. And it does. You know what I'm saying? It's not like, because it's so many things, but all the pieces fit together, especially at the end. It all makes sense. So it was just lovely. Oh yeah, it was lovely. Yeah. Made me want to throw the book across the room, because I can't do this damnit, but okay. I want to answer one more question, then I'll let you go back to your life. But not until I get my answers. Let's see, what was it? Okay, this is interesting. So she writes so beautifully, she says, okay, you've answered a question as daunting as how should a person be in a whole book? In many ways, in many different ways, and explorations and explanations, you've arrived at answers not explicitly or all at once, but sewn into the whole entire book. So she asked, what was your initial instinctual answer on how a person should be? When that question first popped into your head, Sheila Heti: Gosh. I mean, honestly, Lola, I don't even remember. It was so long ago. That was 20 years ago that I started writing that book. I don't think that I even was thinking about, oh, what's my answer? I just really liked the way that sentence sounded, and I came up with Michael Jamin: Message. But you were trying to find yourself at that point. Sheila Heti: Yeah, but that sentence also was such a weird sentence. I don't even remember. I remember feeling I had it on my wall. I wrote it down and I put it on my wall. I was thinking about it. Should this be the, I don't know. That's an important sentence for me. I didn't know it was going to be the title of the book or anything. And my friend Margo came in. I was at a writer's retreat, this place called Yado, and she came in and she's like, she visited me there. She's like, that should be the title of your book. But I remember I put it on the wall. To me, it was such a weird sentence, it just got in my head like a earworm, just like a bug. Is this sentence even asking a question? Is this sentence even saying something I liked? And I remember I put, when I was at this writer's calling, I wasn't sure the title of the book should be, should It Be? How Should a Person Be? Should It Be The Ugly Painting Competition? I had one or two other ideas, and there was this table that writers could sort of put notes for each other on. And I put this note on sort of saying, make a tick mark with which title you think it should be. And most people chose the Ugly Painting competition. So there's this retrospective thing where, oh, that's a really good title, people say, but I think at the time, it just felt like a really weird sentence. And so I didn't really have an instinctive answer. I more just had a magnetic attraction to that sentence. Michael Jamin: So you weren't struggling with the notion at the time of how you should be. I felt like you were when I was reading it. Sheila Heti: I mean, you have to narrow things down to put them in a book. I mean, I was just lost and confused and didn't know how to be a good person, and I didn't know what choices I should be making or how anybody made choices or, yeah, it all comes together in that sentence, I guess. But I wasn't walking around as a human thinking, how should a person be for myself? I was making really, I was just feeling very discouraged and very excited. Alternately, Michael Jamin: Right. Oh, okay. Okay. Alright. Hard part being asked a question from a book that was so long ago, but I would tell every, no, Sheila Heti: But I think that's the right answer. I think that you're not really magnetized exactly by the questions that are your life questions. You're magnetized by the questions that can be translated into book questions. Michael Jamin: Go on. I'm almost there. I'm almost with you. I'm still struggling. But Sheila Heti: You're drawn to the, you have to narrow things down to put them in a book. You can't put your whole life into a book. You have to narrow it down. And so you become attracted to those symbols, like the sentence, how should a person be as a symbol? You become attracted to these symbols that can be objects in a book, but in your life, you're not living symbolically where you're just lost and you just don't know how to be. So it doesn't crystallize in life. It's just this miasma of confusion and doubt and whatever. That's what life is. Michael Jamin: So do you think your writing helps you make sense of your life? Or are you making sense of it first and then writing. Sheila Heti: Writing? Am I making sense of it first and then writing? No. Yeah. Michael Jamin: Do you understand what I'm saying or no? Sheila Heti: Yeah. No, I don't think so. I think you're writing to try to give structure to it, to try to give narrative, to try to give color to it or shade and, yeah, no, I don't think you don't make sense of it first and then write it out. Michael Jamin: And so in that way, I agree with you. And in that way, you almost invent yourself. You go, okay, this is a narrative. And now I guess it's true now. Sheila Heti: Well, no, no, it's not that. It's true now because you know that you invented it. So it serves a purpose for a short period of time. Michael Jamin: It serves a purpose, but Sheila Heti: You know, invented it. So it doesn't really permanently serve a purpose, Michael Jamin: But it does help you understand. It does help you, like I said, make a narrative of your life and that helps you understand, oh, I guess this is who I am now. This is who I am Sheila Heti: For those three years that you're writing three years, and then the book ends, and then you're lost again. And then you're like, now who am I going to be? What am I going to be? What is my outline? Michael Jamin: And then how do you come, okay, so how do you decide what your next work is going to be? Sheila Heti: I mean, you can make all sorts of decisions. And then we started off the conversation, then three weeks later, it was, you realized you were wrong. So it's more just like what sticks around. Again? I see you're wearing your wedding ring. You're married that it's like your partner. You probably had other people you thought you might marry or whatever, but it's just like, who ended up being your wife? You can ask that question retrospectively, but at the time you hope she's going to be your wife. Maybe you hope this other person was going to be your wife. You don't really know what it's going to be. So I guess it's the same with a book project. Retrospectively, you're like, oh, well, geez, I'm still working on that. It's been four years. Michael Jamin: Isn't that interesting though? Even when you talk about that, that you're, it's like how when you're talking about marrying someone, it's not even so much the person. It's the time. It's the time when it's almost like timing. Sheila Heti: Yeah. That's probably part of it too. I always want to start a book, and then when I actually do start one, I'm like, oh, well, you just weren't ready yet. You were still attached to the last book, Michael Jamin: But do you feel, okay, I get this idea of what sticks is what you'll work on and has legs, but do you feel any kind of pressure? I don't know, to continue reinventing this is what you're doing. That's the pattern. I see. Oh, I'm reinventing what my writing will be. Sheila Heti: I don't feel pressure. I feel like excited for the curiosity. I'm curious, or I would just want, well, what's the next thing? No, it's not pressure. It's more just looking forward to something new to play with. Michael Jamin: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get that. I understand that. To me, I would be thinking, well, if it ain't broke, I'm trying to fix it. This is, I don't know. But no, I get Sheila Heti: It. But that's not true because you did leave screenwriting. Michael Jamin: Well, I'm still kind of, who knows? When you Sheila Heti: Started something new Yeah. And it wasn't broke. It was just that you wanted to try something. Michael Jamin: Yeah. It really was, what can I do without someone telling me what to do? Yeah. But did you ever have any interest in writing for screen? Sheila Heti: I've tried, and I just don't have, I would have to put in a lot more time than I probably have, but the couple of times I've tried to write for the screen, I just felt like it didn't, yeah. It's just not my medium. It's a very different, it's a much more mathematical, dramatic, logical kind of, I don't know. It's only halfway there because then the actors have to come. I like the fact with the book that it's the whole thing. Michael Jamin: It's all yours. Right. Do you watch a lot of TV or film? Sheila Heti: Yeah. My boyfriend and I watch something more or less every night. Oh, Michael Jamin: Really? What do you went to? Yeah, Sheila Heti: He loves movies. Right now we're watching the Boys. Michael Jamin: Oh, the Boys, okay. Right. Sheila Heti: But I think my favorite was The Leftovers, Michael Jamin: The Wait, I didn't see that. That Leftovers Sheila Heti: TV show that ran for three seasons. I thought that was an incredible work of art. Michael Jamin: Really? Oh, that's work for that. Sheila Heti: Interesting. The film was just great. But yeah, and I love Curb and Seinfeld. I mean, just this good old tv, Michael Jamin: Good old. Great. Wow. Sheila. Sheila Hetty, thank you so much. I don't know. This is one of the benefits of getting to do what I'm doing now, is I get to meet people like you and just learn and soak it up, because I just feel you is such an incredible talent. And so I urge everybody just to, I don't know, your newest book will be Alphabetical Diaries. That's February drop in February. But I guess for me, I'll probably read motherhood next. Is that what I should read next? Okay. She shaking Head. Okay. That's what I will. And so I urge everyone, Sheila, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining Michael Jamin: Me so much for this Michael Jamin: Interview. Thanks for asking me. I really appreciate it. Oh, this was such a pleasure. Oh, please, everyone in my family, I was telling em, looks like the interview Sheila Hadie. And it was like a big deal. I got my questions, my daughter send me questions. Don't ruin it. Don't ruin the opportunity. Thank you again so much. Alright, everyone. More great stuff next week. Thank you so much for listening and keep writing. Michael Jamin: So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have actor Chris Gorham, (Out of Practice, The Lincoln Lawyer, NCIS: Los Angeles and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also discuss the work-life balance he has with his family and some of the things he wishes more actors were aware of while filming. There is so much more, so tune in. Show Notes Chris Gorham on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisgorham/ Chris Gorham IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0330913/ Chris Gorham on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Gorham Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Chris Gorham: But in getting to know them and talking to them, Almost all of them had day jobs, like worked for the city, Worked, worked for construction crews. They had full-on-day Jobs. Some of them were Entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a New idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income and equality has increased so dramatically, It feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another, Michael Jamin: You are listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Chris Gorham: Like my backdrop, this is my, oh, I love it. Official SAG after LA delegate backdrop that we used him during the convention. Michael Jamin: I know you're a big show. We're starting already. I'm here with Chris Gorham, and he is an actor I worked with many years ago on a show called Out of Practice. He's one of the stars that was a show with starting Henry Winkler, stocker Channing, Ty Burrell, Chris Gorham, and Paul Marshall. It was a great show on CBS and only lasted a season. But Chris, Chris is about as successful working actors as you can, short of being like someone like Brad Pitt, who's known across the world. You've done a ton of TV shows, and I'm going to blow through them real fast here. Chris Gorham: Okay. You can, I can't talk about them still, but your strike is over so you can, Michael Jamin: Yeah, right, because Chris is, I guess he's in sag and actually you're one of the members, you're one of the, what do you call yourself, the king? So Chris Gorham: I'm the king of SAG aftra. No, I was elected to be on the LA local board and also elected as a delegate. So that's what this background was. Our official LA delegate background for Michael Jamin: The research delegate for for the model. What does that mean Chris Gorham: For the convention? Yeah. It's kind of reminiscent of Model un. So it's the convention that happens every two years where all the delegates get together and we elect the executive vice president, and there's certain offices that get elected by the delegate membership. Michael Jamin: I don't think we have that in the Writer's Guild. I think we have a direct democracy. You, I guess have a representative democracy. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Yeah. It's a much bigger union. How big Michael Jamin: Is it? How big do you know? About Chris Gorham: 160,000 members. Michael Jamin: Wow. Okay. Members, but that's active members. And what do you have to be to be an active member? Chris Gorham: What do you have to be? Do Michael Jamin: You have to sell? You have to work a certain amount or something? Chris Gorham: No, once you're in, you can stay in as long as you pay your dues Michael Jamin: Every year. Oh, okay. But then that doesn't mean you get health. You have to qualify for health insurance and stuff like that. Correct. Chris Gorham: Well, it's a big part of the strike. It's one of our big talking points really is only about 13% and just under 13% earn enough to qualify for our healthcare plan. And I mean, that's only about $26,700 a year to qualify for healthcare. Michael Jamin: That's a big deal. I mean, healthcare, healthcare. So most people don't realize this, and it seems so naive to say this, but I get so many comments when on social media, all these actors are millionaires. Dude, what are you talking about? You can be a working actor and book two gig. You're lucky if you do two gigs a year. And Chris Gorham: Well listen, it goes to the heart of what this strike is about is that it's worse than people even think because just to what's the best way to talk about it? So a big part of our asked during this negotiation is a big increase in the contributions to our health and pension plan by the producers. And the reason is that they haven't increased it in a long, long, long, long time. So for instance, one person could work, let's say you got hired to do an episode and got paid very well, right? For one episode. Let's say you're getting it, it's an anthology show. They're paying the top two people like series regulars, and you're getting a hundred grand for one episode. So you would think a hundred thousand dollars. That is a lot of money for one episode. If I'm doing that, I am clear. Definitely qualify. You do not qualify for healthcare because you've only done one episode and the producers only have to contribute up to a certain amount. So even though you've made a hundred grand in one episode, you still have to book another job, at least one more Michael Jamin: And clear, Chris Gorham: Not going to qualify for healthcare. Michael Jamin: I've produced a lot of shows. I don't recall ever paying a guest star anywhere close to a hundred thousand an episode. No, not even close. Chris Gorham: No, no. And the minimums have, right now, I think for a drama, the minimum's around $9,000, maybe a little more than that for an episode for top of Show guest start like the top paid guest shows on those shows. Yeah, you can't. And it's become almost impossible to negotiate a rate higher than the minimums. Michael Jamin: You can have a quote and they go, well, that's too bad. This is what we're paying you. Chris Gorham: Correct. This is what we're paying you. Michael Jamin: Let me just run through some of yours so people know who we're talking about because some people are listening to it. So Chris is, I'm going to blow some of his bigger parts, but he works so much. So let's start with Party of Five where you did four episodes, which I love that show. I just had to mention that, but of course, popular. You did a ton of those. Felicity, remember that? Odyssey five, Jake 2.0, which you started in medical investigation out of practice, which I mentioned Harper's Island Ugly Betty, Betty Laa, which I loved, of course, covert Affairs and what else? I'm going through your list here. Full Circle two Broke Girls. You worked with two of the broke girls and insatiable the Lincoln lawyer, and that doesn't include any of your guest chart. So you are incredibly successful actor and you've strung, actually, I want to hit on something. Sure. So this is a little embarrassing on my part. We had a technical, this is our second interview because I had technical errors on my point. I'm not that good with technology, even though I've done well over a hundred episodes of this, and Chris graciously allowed me to do this over. But one of the things that you said, the thing that struck me the most during our last talk, which I found incredibly interesting and humble, I said to you, Chris, how do you choose your roles? And do you remember what you said to me? Chris Gorham: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. I said, I should be so lucky. Yeah. The reality is, it's like actors like me. I've had a lot of conversations with actors like me who star on television shows, multiple television shows, and we all joke about how many times we've been asked in interviews. The question Michael Jamin: Really, Chris Gorham: Why did you choose this to be your next project? Michael Jamin: Right. Well, I wanted to eat. That's why. Chris Gorham: Yeah, yeah. Because I think journalists sometimes forget, and they think that we're all to use your example, Brad Pitt, and that we're being sent scripts and we get to choose what our next project is, but in reality, that is not at all. What happens, what happens for the vast majority of us is we are sent auditions. Sometimes we get the scripts, sometimes we don't. And we put ourselves now what used to be going to the casting office. Now we put ourselves on tape and we send it off into the void, and we hope that we get hired. Michael Jamin: And you'll work on a part. When you do get the script, how long will you spend preparing for that before you submit your tape? Chris Gorham: Oh, it depends mostly on two things. One, how many pages it is, and then it depends on how well written it's, to be honest. You've heard this before. Michael Jamin: Go ahead. Tell me. Chris Gorham: The better the writing, the easier it is to memorize. Michael Jamin: Right. And explain why that is. Chris Gorham: Well, the reason is is because it makes sense. If it's written like a human being talks, then the next sentence follows from the sentence before. If you understand the emotion of what's going on, then it just makes sense and the dialogue flows and it's just so much easier to memorize. The stuff that's always the hardest is when you're the character that's laying pipe and you're just spewing out exposition and it's not really coming. Listen, the good writers are always trying to tie it down to that emotional reality, but sometimes you got to lay pipe, and that's stuff's always the hardest, particularly if it's a bunch of medical jargon or legal jargon. That kind of stuff is crazy. Michael Jamin: And what people don't also realize, I think, is when you're starting out an actor, oh, I could play everything. I could play a villain. I could play a teacher, I could play a biker, I could play a doctor. That's fine when you're in your high school play, but in Hollywood, you're going to be cast the part that you are closest to because if not, we will cast someone who looks like a biker or who was a biker, and we'll cast someone who looks like a doctor. Right? Yeah. So you have to figure out who you are, basically. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Well, it's one of the, I went to theater school at UCLA and I was very lucky because during my freshman year, they decided to start a conservatory program within the theater program there. So we all auditioned and I got into this conservatory program. So for my last three years, it was conservatory training, and I still got my bachelor of arts degree from UCLA. It was the best of both worlds. One of the things that I felt like a few years out after having it is I wished they had spent a little bit more time helping us learn how to act like ourselves. You spend so much time in theater school, learning how to stretch your creativity, working on your voice, working on your body movement, body awareness, vocal awareness, and then learning how to play all these different kinds of parts and all the plays you're doing. All the parts are filled from college students. So sometimes you're playing an old man, sometimes you're playing a young woman who knows. But the second you start auditioning for roles professionally, you're only going to be seen for roles that you physically look like. And so it's really important to quickly learn if you haven't already, how to be you. Right. How do you do that version of you? Michael Jamin: Where do you begin with that? Chris Gorham: Well, it takes practice. We used to do an exercise. It was in one of the very beginning acting classes. In fact, I didn't even take this acting class. I was observing, I think my senior year, one of the grad students was teaching it. And it was just as simple as everybody got in circle and instead of being crazy and dancing like a tree or whatever, it was literally, it was just walk across. Just walk from point A to point B. Just you just don't do anything. Just walk from what, and you would be surprised how difficult that can be because Michael Jamin: You become self-conscious of what you're Chris Gorham: Exactly right. You become and you feel like you should do something mean. And especially for a bunch of theater kids who've kind of grown up in their theater school, all high schools and stuff all over, it's all about being big, and it's all about the jokes and getting attention and to let all of that go and just be in the market is a very difficult thing for a lot of people. But it's super, super important. And that carries through forever. Just being just be there. You don't have to do anything, particularly when you have a camera on you, and particularly when it's time for your closeup, you don't have to do a lot. You just have to be there and be present and alive in the scene. Michael Jamin: But so much, I think some people, they greatly underestimate how difficult acting is because it looks like make-believe and whatever. We're just, you're having fun on the camera, but to be in the moment, especially when the cameras are on you and everyone's watching in, go hurry up and go, because we've set up the scene for half hour and we want you to shoot it now. And it's so hard to stay in the moment, I think. So how do you stay in the moment when you become conscious that you're acting Chris Gorham: Now? If I become conscious that I'm acting now, I'll just stop. Michael Jamin: You will Chris Gorham: Often I'll just stop and say, can we start over? Can we just go back to the top because for whatever reason, and then go again. Because if I'm conscious, then I'm not in a scene, then it's not going to work and they're not going to be able to use it. So I would just stop and go back. I mean, it's the great advantage of film, right? Michael Jamin: But you do much theater anymore, because that's different when you're on stage. Chris Gorham: I only feel like benefits and things for years. We're rehearsing for one this weekend, we're doing the Girls Benefit to raise money for breast cancer research. Michael Jamin: So it's one show. Chris Gorham: It's one show. I mean, for me, I've been a single income family of five for almost 23 years. So with that, I haven't able to afford to go and do theater, but I miss it. I love it. I did two weeks, 14 years ago, I did two weeks in Spalding Gray Stories left to Tell in New York off Broadway. Michael Jamin: Really? So you were Spalding Gray, I mean, it's a one man show, Chris Gorham: Right? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a one man show split into five different personalities. So it's different parts of him. And so the business part, they would swap out celebrities every two weeks. And so I came in and did that for two weeks, and it was the best. Michael Jamin: And this was in New York? Chris Gorham: Yeah. Michael Jamin: That's amazing. How did something like that come up? How do you get that? Chris Gorham: I don't know. I don't remember. I don't mean it must've come through my agents or my manager. I don't remember. I don't remember. Michael Jamin: Wow. How interesting. Chris Gorham: Because now, I was just going to say now, it's been so long since I've done, I've become, I'm so out of the loop of LA theater in particular, which is kind of more feasible for me at this point, just because it's close and easy. I don't even really know how to get back in. In fact, one of my youngest was doing a summer theater camp at Annoys Within, and it's close to where we are. So I was trying to figure out, I reached out to my manager, I was like, Hey, is really close. Is there, are they doing anything that would make sense for me to do something with them over there? They were like, yeah, that's a great idea. And they never heard anything. So I just emailed them my photo and resume with a letter, and I never heard anything back. So I literally, I don't even know how to approach getting cast in theater anymore, Michael Jamin: Because your agent, there's not enough money for your agent to work on it. Chris Gorham: They couldn't be less interested. Michael Jamin: I'm always curious how that works. We just saw a show at the Pasadena Playhouse and I was like, well, how do these actors, how do they, yeah, if Chris Gorham: You find out, let me know the Playhouse also write down the street. It'd be amazing. Michael Jamin: Yeah, there's always some, but then again, you would have to commit to something. And during that time period, let's say it was two months, you can't take other work you've committed and something big could come along, who knows? I Chris Gorham: Mean, maybe. But also that is, you live with that fear all the time, no matter what Michael Jamin: Do you mean even if you're on a show, you mean? Chris Gorham: Well, not if you're on a show, then you're working well, then you worry about the show being canceled and then that you're never going to work again. But when you're not working, well, this brings up two thoughts. One is there's a fear of taking something that's not the big thing, because you are afraid that if you do this smaller thing that it's going to conflict with the big thing that might be just around the court. And the other thought that it brings up is I talked with so many actors over the years who are not working and are really struggling and feel paralyzed about going to try and do anything else because there's this intense peer pressure that, well, you can't quit. You can't quit now that your moment, it might be just around the corner, it might be the next audition. Michael Jamin: You mean quit Hollywood and do something for a different career, you Chris Gorham: Mean? Yeah, go do something else. You got to hang in. You got to hang in. And I feel like it's a really difficult balancing act because the truth is that this business is really, really hard to go back to the strike. It's gotten increasingly difficult to the point where it's almost impossible with an actor to make a living, to be able to raise a family, to be able to put your kids through college and those kind of life things that are important to so many of us. Michael Jamin: And I know, and that's why you fight and that's why you fight. And that's why it's so people think, well, so what for actors? But the problem is like you're saying, if actors can't make a living in between or you're starring in a show, that's great, but the show will probably get canceled up to one season. But you still need to keep a healthy talent pool of actors who can continue to keep a living, because if they can't, they're going to leave. And then how are you going to cast as writers and producers? How do you cast this part if there's not a healthy talent pool? That's Chris Gorham: It. That's it. We can't continue paying the stars these massive, massive, massive amounts of money and having everybody else working on these tiny minimums because it's unsustainable. The best and the brightest of us that haven't won the lottery are going to go do other things because there's more to life and life. You can be an actor without pursuing it as a career. Michael Jamin: But I haven't heard those notions come up at all. Maybe I'm not just tuned in, but the idea of, well, maybe we're paying the stars too much, or has that been a discussion at all? Chris Gorham: I mean, I have that discussion. Yeah. Oh, really? Well, yeah, because it's not that, well, certainly for me, and not so much from my personal experience, but just from my kind of bleeding heart observations of this business, when you see movies, it's why, like I've said for a long time, the only way now to make a living in this business is if you're a star or a series regular on a TV show. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yes, I agree with that. It's the Chris Gorham: Only way because all of the supporting cast, none of the supporting cast makes enough money to make a consistent living in this business because your stars get massive amounts of money. Everyone else is working scale, and the minimums have not risen nearly enough to make it enough. And the stars, well, this is the excuse the studios use, is that they're paying the stars so much. There's no money left to pay anybody else over scale, so no one else can negotiate over scale. And in tv it's a similar thing. So it just makes it very difficult. Michael Jamin: And not only that, LA has always been an expensive city to live, but now it's crazy. It's like crazy. I can't afford, if I hadn't bought my house when I did it, I couldn't even come close to affording this house and have a middle class house. It's something special about it. So these are the issues that actors are fighting over. Yeah, it's an important, it's so interesting when you hear your friends or colleagues thinking about leaving, do they tell you what they're going to do or what they want to do? It's such a hard thing when you're middle aged, what are you going to do? Chris Gorham: Right. No, it's true. It's true. No, I have some friends that have gone into teaching. Michael Jamin: Okay. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Most of my actor friends are still around. Have one friend who started the business ages ago and still runs that business while she's worked periodically as an actor throughout all of these years. And she still works frequently, but her main income is from this business that she created. Right. Michael Jamin: She's very, so you got to be entrepreneurial, basically. Yeah. Chris Gorham: Yeah. It's funny. I did a movie early in my career where we shot in Tonga and New Zealand, and we had a lot of New Zealand actors were working on this film and in talk, and some of them were quite famous in New Zealand. They were working on this famous New Zealand TV show, like legitimate celebrities. But in getting to know them and talking to them, almost all of them had day jobs, worked for the city, worked, worked in construction crews. They have full on day jobs. Some of them were entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a new idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income inequality has increased so dramatically, it feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another gig. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Chris Gorham: It didn't used to be that way. And I don't think that it has to be that way. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, yeah, it seems very unfair. It doesn't seem, well, I mean, I guess all things is fair about being an actor. Being an actor has always been a pursuit of like, well, is there anything else you could do? Then choose that? But true, it seems like now it's like, I don't know. What do you do? What recommend then for people, young kids or kids, whatever, 20 year olds who considering getting into the business? Chris Gorham: Yeah, I mean, that advice I think is evergreen. That if you can go do something else as a career, absolutely do something else as a career. Oftentimes the advice I give is when you're young, spend a lot less time thinking about what you want to be when you grow up and spend a lot more time thinking about what kind of life you want to live when you grow up, what kind of things do you want to do? And then you can find career paths that will allow you to live the kind of life you want to live. And it becomes less obsessed with having a certain job. Michael Jamin: Well, that's something to consider. So for you as a working actor, sometimes you'll be on location, you might be in a different city. Is that something you away from your family, which is hard as you were raised in a family, is that something you considered? Is that something you would reconsider now? Chris Gorham: I had no idea. I grew up in Fresno, California. My mom was a school nurse. My dad was an accountant. They didn't know what to do with me, and I didn't know anything about the business. I wanted to be. Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah. I had no idea. And so my first, and I was very fortunate. I got out of school, I started, I got my union card in 1996, the year I got out of school was booking occasional guest stars on things. My first job was one scene in a movie with two big movie stars, big famous director. It was awesome. And then I booked my first series just three years after school. Cool. And it was shot at Disney. It was like 10 minutes away from our little place we were renting. And then it was canceled and it came out of nowhere. And then I was very fortunate again. I booked another series two weeks later, but that one shot until long Michael Jamin: And Chris Gorham: I had no idea what that meant. And I left to do that pilot six weeks after our first born son, our firstborn was born. So my wife, anal had no idea what no idea we were doing. Suddenly we had a newborn baby, six weeks old, and then I'm gone for five weeks. It was extraordinarily difficult. Michael Jamin: I apologize. Something must be open and I have to shut it down because someone's, I'm sorry. Chris Gorham: Oh, no worries. Okay. Michael Jamin: I thought everything shut. But yeah, so to continue, so that's heartbreaking. You have a brand new baby and you're out of town. You left here. Chris Gorham: Yeah. It was hard. And we didn't, because we didn't grow up here, so we had no experience. I don't know how to do this. And no one was really kind explaining to us, okay, this is how you get through this. These are the different ways you can do it. These are the options. You know what I mean? I didn't have anybody, I didn't have a mentor or somebody guiding me in how to do this thing. Michael Jamin: But at any point in your career, you must, because worked for so many actors, you must have at some point found someone a little older and wiser. Right? Chris Gorham: Well, the closest thing we had was Anelle had Stacey Winkler. It was really sweet. Anelle used to sit next to Stacey Winkler at every taping, and they would just talk and Stacey would give her advice, and it was great. One week, Anelle come to the taping, and the next week Stacey scolded her and was like, you have to be here every week and let everyone know that that is your husband. Michael Jamin: Interesting. I remember she came to, I think every out of practice, Chris Gorham: Everyone. Michael Jamin: So why is it about staking your territory? What was that? Or is this being supportive? Chris Gorham: What was it? No, I think it was both, but I think partly staking your territory. I was the young guy, the young handsome guy on this show, and it's a CVS show, and so she was like, you need to be here. But then it was also she said, but then he's the star here at work. You have to make sure that when you get home, the kids are the star, not him. You have to make it very Michael Jamin: Clear. Was there a difficulty for you? Is it hard to go home and not be the star? What was that like? Chris Gorham: I had gotten pretty good at it, certainly by then. But I would imagine looking back in the beginning, it's kind of that power corrupt and absolute power. Corrupt absolutely. Of course can go to your head when you are getting a little famous and you're making some money. And when you're at work, you are catered to, you're one of the stars of the show. You're catered to a handed foot. Everything's taken care of. I've described it as series regulars are treated like fancy Michael Jamin: Babies on set. Chris Gorham: Don't upset the babies. You need to keep them safe at all times. You need to keep them comfortable at all times. You don't want them crying. You don't want them cranky. You need to keep them fully regulated because when everything's ready to roll, we need the fancy babies to be able to perform. And as soon as they're done, we want them to go back to their cribs slash trailers so that then the grownups can finish getting everything ready for the next shot. Michael Jamin: And imagine giving this kind of pressure to a child actor. I mean, have you worked with many child actors? Chris Gorham: Yeah, many over the years, and I can say almost all of it. Almost all of it's been a good experience. I haven't had any total nightmares with child doctors. That being said, every parent that's asked us about getting their kid into the business, we have always advised against it. And we didn't encourage any of our kids to get into it. Michael Jamin: It's rough. I haven't worked with many child, I just haven't been on shows with a lot of kids. And I am glad because I have a feeling I would when a kid is messing around on set in between takes or just not being professional because they're acting like children the way they are supposed to act. In my mind I would be thinking, stop fucking around. This is work. I know that's what I would be thinking, which is an awful thing to put on a child. But that's what you're paying them a lot of money to do. It's a hard position. I don't know. I just feel for those kids, I just feel like, yeah, I know. That's where Ill be thinking. Hopefully I wouldn't be saying it. Yeah, Chris Gorham: It's difficult. It's very, I mean, sets are, they're not for kids. They're an adult work environments, which by the way, some adult working actors need to be reminded occasionally that these are adult working environments. This is not your personal playground. But yeah, it's a difficult environment for kids. So I mean, you need them. So I'm grateful that they're there. Michael Jamin: I think that too sometimes. Sometimes I'll see an actor goofing around too much, and we're all, I'm like, dude, let's get out of here. All the crew wants to go home. They've been working 12 hour days for the past week and a half. They want to go home too. Chris Gorham: Well, let me tell you, this is one of the things where with every showrunner that I've become friendly with, I highly encourage them, if at all possible, to bring their series regulars behind the curtain and bring them to at least one production meeting that show them how the sausage really gets made, expose them to all of the other incredibly creative, intelligent, wonderful people who make up this team that makes the TV show or the film. Because then they get to see, because as cast, especially as the stars of the show or the film, you really are treated as if you are the most important cog in this machine. And it's really helpful, I think, and just the team morale, if actors understand that they are a very important cog in that machine, but just one of the cogs in the machine. You Michael Jamin: Said you learned this, I think when you first were directing, you started directing episodes of the shows, you weren't, right? Chris Gorham: Yeah. I had think a basic actor's understanding of how things work on set. And I'm not to blow my own horn. I'm generally a nice person. So I'm kind to people. I'm nice to everybody on set. I learned people's names. I generally understood what people did, but only when I started directing did I really understand just how incredible the whole ensemble is and how much the rest of the team has to offer and is contributing to the show or the film. It was just a level of respect that I don't think I could really have until I was allowed behind the curtain to see how it was happening. So what Michael Jamin: Would you recommend? Would you recommend that every week one actor attends a production meeting? Is that what you're saying? Chris Gorham: Listen, that's one way to do it. Right. However it works for that showrunner, for that production, I would just encourage them because I just feel like so often, and I think, I don't know if it's true now, but I've talked to showrunners in the past that have talked about the show and the training program and about the message they got was to keep the cast at arm's length. Really? Yeah. And there certainly can be good reasons for doing that. I can understand why that sometimes makes the job easier, certainly, and sometimes maybe makes it possible. But I just think there's more to gain by bringing them in to letting them see, really meet the whole team and get to know the whole team. And because there's just, I mean, truly, you see what the set designers do, and you see what the customers do, and you see, we get to understand how lighting works. You know what I mean? It's just how hard the ads work on putting together with the schedule and learn why the schedule gets put way put together the way it gets put together. And once you understand it, then maybe you're a little less mad about having to be last in on Friday, two weeks in a row. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Chris Gorham: You see, it's like they're not out to get you. They are trying to accommodate you, and you are not the only factor that is being accommodated. Michael Jamin: You're talking about the writers now? Chris Gorham: No, I was talking about the cast look, in regards to schedule casting, Michael Jamin: Very, very frustrated Chris Gorham: About scheduling. Michael Jamin: Oh, I see. Yeah, that's always right. I can see why that would be frustrating. So what happens? You get a call sheet and you're told to come in whatever, 8:00 AM and they don't get to shoot your part until 1:00 PM and you're like, why did they call me in so early? And sometimes it just happens. It works out that way Chris Gorham: Sometimes. Yeah. They're trying. They're trying. And sometimes it just doesn't work out. And with the scripts, with writers, it's a similar kinds of thing. It's like once you understand how many chefs are in the kitchen of getting these scripts, these stories broken, and then these scripts written how many notes the writer has gotten about their script from the studio and then from the network before it ever gets to the cast. Michael Jamin: You're making me anxious just talking about it. No joke. Chris Gorham: Sorry. And then that's why as a cast member, when you then go to the writer and say, Hey, can I ask you about this? Your writer looks like they're dying a little inside. Michael Jamin: Yeah. No, no, I can't do that. Chris Gorham: And it's like, so the best writers that I've worked with have always been very organized about how actors give notes. They're like, if we're doing table reads on a show, they'll be like, look, we're going to do the table read. Everybody's got 24 hours to give whatever notes or feedback you've got about the script. And then after that, we're considering it locked. Please respect that once you're on. The idea being that you don't want to spend a lot of time on the day when you're there waiting to shoot, talking about suddenly having questions about the scene and asking it to be rewritten. That's not the term. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it's not. And because we have to get next week's script and next week's script is a disaster. I'm telling you, it's in terrible shape. That's how it always is. So you want to worry about this. What about the crashing plane out there? That's going to be, I remember, I have to show, I can't remember if I mentioned this last time we spoke, but one of my favorite experiences of working in Hollywood was when I was an out of practice, and I can't remember what I was doing. I think the showrunner, Chris, I think he had me deliver pages up to the actress. It was show night right before the show, and I don't know why it was made, but for some reason, I remember carrying a couple of scripts to the dressing room maybe an hour before the showtime, and you guys were all there, the whole cast, and you're holding hands. And Henry's like, come on, Michael, come on in, come on. And I'm like, what's going on right here? And you're all just holding hands. And he goes, and he invited me in. I'm like, but I'm a writer. What do you mean? No, grab some hands. So I remember taking who, who's hands? I don't know, but I'm in the middle. I'm with a circle. I'm holding hands. I'm like, what is going on here? And then you guys did, I don't know what you would call it, but it was some kind of, it's Chris Gorham: Like a little vocal warmup or something. No, Michael Jamin: It was almost like a blessing. It was like a blessing. It was almost like, what's it, we are here to, I am curious if you've done this since then. It was like, we are here to support each other. We're going to have a wonderful show. We're all together. We're a family. And it was almost spiritual. It was very, I guess you haven't done that. You don't remember this. Chris Gorham: I remember doing that. I don't remember that specific moment. But that was all Henry. Michael Jamin: But it wasn't every week that you guys did Chris Gorham: That. Every week we did that. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Okay. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Every week it was our ritual, but Henry started as the ritual before we went down to start the show. We would have this time just with a cast or occasionally with a writer who'd come in. Michael Jamin: I thought it was a beautiful moment. I really did. Chris Gorham: It was really great on dramas. You don't do that because you don't have that moment where you're all together about to go start the show. That's already happened to me on sitcoms. Michael Jamin: So maybe it's a theater thing then. Do you think Chris Gorham: For sure it's a theater thing. Yes. Yes. Michael Jamin: Yes. So tell me, this happens on other employees always before every show or before every night. Opening night every night. Yeah. Chris Gorham: I mean, of course it depends on the show, right? It depends on who's there and who's, but yeah, thinking back, even when I was a kid in Fresno doing local theater, they would always feed circle up right before Showtime. Michael Jamin: Is that what they call, is there a name for this circle up? What is it? Chris Gorham: No, no. That's just what I'm Michael Jamin: Using. So there's no name Chris Gorham: For you get in the huddle. You get in the huddle. Michael Jamin: But I really thought, I still remember it. I was touched by it that this is something that you guys did to support each other so that you could hold space and feel safe in front of a crowd and know it was a very team thing. And I was like, wow. I felt almost like I was invading it. I felt like I don't belong here because I'm not on stage with you guys. But that's what I remember. It struck me. Something else that always struck me was how well guest stars were greeted by the regular cast. That's a very, very position. You've been on both sides of that, Chris Gorham: Right? Yeah, for sure. Michael Jamin: For sure. What's that on both sides for you? Chris Gorham: I've worked on shows where I have, where series regulators never spoke to me. We were in a scene together, but outside of the scene never spoke to me. Michael Jamin: So action. And this is the first time you're talking to them. Chris Gorham: Correct. Michael Jamin: I suppose that could be good if your characters were just meeting for the first time, but is there Chris Gorham: Sure. I guess. I guess Michael Jamin: I guess. Chris Gorham: But we could, we're professionals. We could pretend. But that was pretty early in my career. Now I don't really have that experience anymore. But also, I took it with me and I made it a point, having had that happen once or twice early in my career, that once I was the series regular, I've always made it a point to never ever do that, Michael Jamin: To always welcome the guest star and just absolutely greet them. It's a hard thing to stay. I mean, think about it's the first day of school for them. Yeah. You're walking into, you don't know anybody. I, Chris Gorham: No, it's difficult enough. Like you said, this is a difficult job. And why make it harder on somebody who is coming in on the bottom of the rung of power at this show? Why would you use the very real power that you wield Michael Jamin: Show it's It is real. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Why would you wield that to make someone who's on your team, right? Uncomfortable. Why you? Michael Jamin: But we know these actors. I'm the star. I want you. I want to remind you. It's like, dude, we know. We know. Chris Gorham: Yeah. There are people like that. I feel like that's the exception. It happens. Oh, really? But I feel like it's the exception. Michael Jamin: Interesting. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? One thing we also spoke about, which was very interesting to me, was I don't know what they call now, I guess, what do they call? They call it sex coordinators. What is the role for those people Chris Gorham: Who, oh, intimacy Michael Jamin: Coordinators. Intimacy coordinators. But you mentioned that they have other functions. It is not just when two people are lying in bed, half naked. It's also for, Chris Gorham: So the way that I describe it to people who've never heard of intimacy coordinators is everyone's familiar with stunt coordinators. So stunt coordinators are brought onto a set to keep actors physically safe. Intimacy coordinators are brought onto a set to keep actors emotionally safe. Michael Jamin: And this is relatively new thing. Maybe what, five or 10 years or something? Maybe less, Chris Gorham: Right? Yes. New. And we are pushing to make them required. But one of the hurdles before we can make them a requirement like a stunt coordinator is required. One of the hurdles is actually getting enough intimacy coordinators qualified, trained and qualified to do this Michael Jamin: Job. Are most of them, are they therapists, counselors? What's their training, do you think? No, Chris Gorham: I think a lot of them come from the acting court. Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because Michael Jamin: You mentioned it's not just that. It's also like if you have two characters yelling at each other in a scene, no sex, they're just yelling at each other that an intimacy record will talk to you afterwards, right? Chris Gorham: Yeah. So here's a couple things that we did. I'd worked on a show where we had a scene, it was a sexual assault scene, but there were no clothes, there was no nudity and things stopped before things progressed to the point where we were physically exposed. But that kind of scene, you're very emotionally exposed, right? And this was my first time interviewing with an intimacy coordinator. I didn't really know what to expect. So there was a part of the conversation was, okay, for instance, it's written in the script that the other character is going to reach down and grab your groin. And I talked to the in music coordinator saying, I talked to the director and the director wants to see that. He said, are you comfortable with that? Here's what we have to protect you. We have a piece that's going to go between your pants and your underwear to protect your groin. And so when she grabs you, that's all she's grabbing. It was like, okay, great. That's super helpful actually. Great. I've never had that before. And it seemed like that. And it's nice. It makes me feel more comfortable. Certainly makes her feel more comfortable. Who wants to do that? Nobody. But then after the physical parts of discussion, then the conversation shifted. And she said, another thing that I've done with a lot of actors who've done scenes this, I would recommend that you put together a self-care routine for the end of the day. I was like, well, what do you mean? Like it could be anything. Whatever is going to be comforting to you. Some people, you might make a put things together. So you can draw a bubble bath when you get home. You might put together a playlist of music that makes you feel good. It might be pictures of your kids, could be whatever it is that is going to give comfort if you need it at the end of the day, because you never know what scenes like that might trigger. And that's the thing is you write scenes like this and it's necessary for the story, and you works as appropriate for the characters, but you never know what the actors as people, what their life experience has been. And they may have in their real life, been through an experience like that. And so then reenacting it can be very triggering. And it's the thing about acting when you're doing these emotional scenes, be it anger or big crying emotion, your body doesn't know you're pretending. Michael Jamin: Exactly. Chris Gorham: Exactly. So you mentally, well, this is pretend none of this is real. We're on a set crew numbers and friends, but your body doesn't know the difference. Once you're experiencing those emotions, you are experiencing those emotions and you never know what it's going to bring up. So that kind of care, emotional care, I thought is really great. Michael Jamin: And it's like, you'll do this just so people are aware. If you have a scene where you're screaming and yelling or sexually assaulting someone or whatever, and your adrenaline's pumping and whatever, your, not hormones, but cortisol. Cortisol is racing, whatever. All this stuff is going through your head and your body doesn't know, and you're doing the scene a dozen times and it's very hard. I feel it's must be hard to wash that out of your system. Chris Gorham: Can be. It can be. I mean, that's the thing. And it's different for everybody. I ended up, I was okay at the end of the day. I was exhausted, but I felt okay. But I was glad that I'd put some thought into, if I'm not feeling okay, here's what I'm going to do, it's going to help me feel better. And just having thought about it, I think just helped. Michael Jamin: No, I don't think I've ever worked with an intimacy coordinator because in comedy we don't really do a lot of that. But is it always a sexually charged? Is that what the line is? It's not just drama. There always has to be some kind of sexual element when they're brought in. Is that what it Chris Gorham: Is? That's certainly how it started. And I think now it's one of the things, it's still new. We're figuring out when it, certainly on the sexual stuff, I'm trying to think. It was interesting. There was a resolution. I think there was a resolution that's going to be coming up the convention. There's lots of conversation about intimacy coordinators. But there was some conversation that had never crossed my mind. But once I was talking to someone about it, I thought, yeah, you know what that makes a lot of sense is bringing in intimacy coordinators when you're physically with children. Physically with children. So for instance, you are playing a dad and you're working with kids and you're getting in bed and cuddling with the kids at bedtime, or you're putting your daughter on your lap to have, because they had a rough day and you're cuddling and you know what I mean? And you're having physical contact with kids to have an intimacy coordinator there just to make, because again, you don't know what people's experiences been to protect the kids so that there's a conversation and there's somebody there watching. And I thought, you know what? Smart, that's a great idea. Michael Jamin: That is a really smart idea. Because we don't know what these kids have been through. We don't know. Chris Gorham: And again, most actors, most people in the world are caring, kind, certainly empathetic. That's their whole Michael Jamin: Job. That's the job. Chris Gorham: But just like any other profession, some people need help. Some people don't always have the best intentions, and some people don't always behave well. And so it's important. So yeah, I thought that was just such a good idea. Michael Jamin: I totally agree. We also spoke about how you handle it when you are working with an actor who maybe isn't as professional or prepared as you are in the scene and what you do. I thought it was interesting what you had to say. Chris Gorham: Okay, so huge pet peeve. For me. It's like, no, it really bugs me when you're working with someone who hasn't bothered to learn their dialogue. So that's a huge No-no. But then sometimes you are working with an actor who just isn't great, who just for whatever reason isn't great. So my strategy for dealing with that is I just basically start acting to an X. I just don't, whatever they're giving me is just bad. What I know is that the editor is going to cut around the bad performance and they're going to use me. So it's even more important for me to stay completely engaged in the scene. And it's an extra level of acting challenge because then you're acting. It's like, I don't know. It's working on one of the superhero movies or something where you just start treating them like a tennis ball and you do the scene regardless because you can't let them affect your performance. Your performance Michael Jamin: Performance Chris Gorham: Has to be there. Michael Jamin: But let's say you were working with a casting director. I've worked with many, obviously many, and some cast directors, they'll read with you, and some of them are not great actors. No Chris Gorham: Read bad. Michael Jamin: And then you have, as an actor, you were trained to react and to what they give you, but how do you deal with it when they're not giving you Chris Gorham: Enough? It is. It's really hard. It's one of the nice things about this whole self take resolution is that's kind of taken out of it because you've got, hopefully you have someone working with you that's going to give you something. And if not, you can do multiple takes and send the best one. It was always one of the most difficult things about auditioning in the room is when you are, and I've heard so many horror stories, I've experienced just a couple, but when you're doing your audition and the person you're reading with is garbage, and so much of it becomes, it's not like how convincing their reading is. For me, it was always a rhythm thing. It was like they just aren't listening. And so the rhythm gets completely screwed up. And it's like, Michael Jamin: I always feel for actors when they have to do this, you have a crappy sketching director. It's like, well, what so hard. Chris Gorham: Or you look up and the casting director's like on the phone, Michael Jamin: That's even worse. Eating Chris Gorham: Lunch and not this. Michael Jamin: If you prepared a scene and in this moment you're going to be hot, you're going to be yelling, and the casting director is not giving you enough for you to get angry at. So you're saying you just go ahead and do it the way you prepared, even though if the scene, but then it looks like you're almost looks like you're crazy. You're getting angry and the cast director's at the lunch. It's just something you got to deal with Chris Gorham: Because that's the scene. And they're probably, even when you were in the office, usually they were recording it. Right. So all they're going to see is your side. Michael Jamin: Okay. Chris Gorham: So you have to do Michael Jamin: That's good advice. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Michael Jamin: I remember, this is years ago, we did a scene. We had this very famous actress. Actress. She was older, and we booked her and she came for the role and it was exciting to have her on set. She was very famous, but she should not be working. Her agent should not have booked her because I've Chris Gorham: Had an experience Michael Jamin: Like that too. Really? So maybe she had dementia. I felt terrible because she clearly had dementia or early signs of dementia, so she literally couldn't remember one line. So you'd feed her the line, and even still, she couldn't remember it half a second later. And I just felt she, I didn't know what to do. I was like, she's struggling here. She's probably feels very embarrassed, very lost. Very, why did her agent send her out for this book? Maybe because she needed the insurance. I don't know. But it was a horrible situation. I felt bad all around. Chris Gorham: I've worked with an actress who a very similar situation, and they went to cue cards and they just did it line by line. Michael Jamin: Even with QI wanted to bring in cue cards. The director said, I don't want to bring q. I was like, what are you doing, dude? This is awful. I lost that fight. I thought we needed cue cards. They just Chris Gorham: Shot her side line by line, and then I just did my side to an X. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. That's one of the realities of being on a TV show. Chris Gorham: Totally. And it's one of the, but also why it's so important to not to get, just to do, at the end of the day, be responsible for your performance and make sure that you're giving the best performance that you can give and you can't control the other stuff that's happening. And then as an actor, then trust your director and your camera operators and your review that they're going to take care of you as best that they can and your editor. But it doesn't behoove anyone to make you look like an idiot unless you're supposed to look like an idiot. Right, Michael Jamin: Right. Chris Gorham: Everyone wants to make the show. Great. Michael Jamin: Are your kids getting into acting or have they expressed any No. You said with relief. No, not in the arts at all. Chris Gorham: No, no, no, not at all. Michael Jamin: Your wife was an actor. I mean, I'm, yeah, I'm surprised that there's not that pull. Chris Gorham: Well, my oldest son is autistic. He finished high school and now he's got a part-time job like pharmacy down the street. He's doing well, and his younger brother is studying business, wants to go into real estate. Oh, good. It's like, okay. Michael Jamin: Yeah, thank God. Chris Gorham: Yeah. And then our youngest loves to sing, has a beautiful singing voice. But yeah, no, he isn't really interested Michael Jamin: Going Chris Gorham: Into the business, which is fine. We've never put any pressure on Michael Jamin: Them. Well, sure. Chris Gorham: And had they had a passion for it, we would be supportive, but it's just not, their hearts Michael Jamin: Taken them. It's funny. I'm sure they've come to set with you seen you do it. Yeah. Chris Gorham: Yeah. They think it's boring. They're like, this is so boring. Michael Jamin: It is boring. There's a lot of boring on a set. I don't know if, Chris Gorham: Yeah, it's super boring. They've never watching things with me in it because it's weird to see your dad not being your dad. Also, another thing, thinking about it, having just talked about Stacy Linker a little bit ago, I think part of the reason they don't like going to set is because it set. I am the star and not them. So Michael Jamin: Oh, interesting. Chris Gorham: That doesn't feel great either. It's way better at home. Michael Jamin: What is it like for you though, when you're out in public? And fame to me is, so how do you experience fame when someone comes up to you and they think they know you and they want a piece of you? What does that do to you? Chris Gorham: Well, I've been really lucky, I feel like, because kind of been able to walk the line where I've experienced being famous enough to have the paparazzi jump out and want to take my picture and talk to me. Michael Jamin: That's a lot. That's a level of fame I don't think anybody would want to have, Chris Gorham: But never to the point where it really got in the way. It was just a few. There were some moments in my career where I was famous enough that the paparazzi knew who I was and would take my picture, but never famous enough that it really Michael Jamin: Bothered Chris Gorham: You, caused problems. Never famous enough where I needed security. Never famous enough where it got really inconvenient. Michael Jamin: But let's just say you're at a restaurant and someone wants to come up, they want to talk to you, they autographed, they want to meet you. Chris Gorham: Most of the time people get it. I'm usually out with my kids and my wife, so they understand if they're coming up and I'm with my wife and kids, that it's a little awkward for them to ask me to stop dinner with my family to talk pictures or take. So that doesn't really happen Michael Jamin: Now. Oh, that's good. I mean, Brad, I could see your family being like, oh God, we're trying to have a night. We're trying to be together. Chris Gorham: There's been moments like that, especially for the kids. Anelle it, it's always been fun. Early in my career, it was weird because we were on a show and we couldn't go to malls because kids would chase us around malls in the very beginning. But then as you get older, that happens less and less. And then it's just been, sometimes it's surprising. My kids forget for a while. We'll go a while without getting recognized at all. And then weirdly, in Chicago, weirdly, I think the last show that I was on must have lots of people watched it in Chicago. And so suddenly, anytime I'm in Chicago, I'm recognized all the time. And so It's like my kids remember. Oh, right. Dad's on tv. Michael Jamin: That's so Chris Gorham: Funny. Funny. When Ethan was starting high school was when a very popular show with the high school kids had just premiered. And that was actually really difficult for him. We've talked about it since. He didn't really reveal how hard it was for him, but last year we were talking about it and he was kind of opening up and said, yeah, no, it sucked. It wasn't great. Michael Jamin: Really? Chris Gorham: You were doing that show while I was starting high school and so everyone knew who I was and everyone Michael Jamin: Knew who all his friends and all the kids. Yeah. It's hard for a kid and it Chris Gorham: Was embarrassing. Michael Jamin: Yes, it was. They were embarrassed that you were their dad. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Really? It was super embarrassing. Yeah. Well, because of what that show, because of my character on the show for high school kids, just, it was a lot. I was physically quite exposed on that show and so yeah, it was a lot. It a lot. Michael Jamin: Oh wow. We did a show with these two guys link and these were big YouTubers and they were huge. And I hadn't heard of them. I didn't know them. And then remember we'd go for the meeting and one of them said to me, you wouldn't believe this, but I can't go to Disneyland without being swarmed. That was his crowd. He's like, I know you've never seen me before, but I can't go there without being swarmed. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Michael Jamin: It's so funny. Yeah, Chris Gorham: It's wild. Yeah. That was, Michael Jamin: It's interesting that this, go ahead, please. Chris Gorham: No, no, no, no. It was just a dumb Disneyland story. Go ahead. Michael Jamin: No. Chris Gorham: Well, the dumb Disneyland story was, there was a period in my career where working on a certain show where we could not only go to Disneyland for free, but also were given the guide and the behind we were taking care of at Disneyland, like a celebrity, which was funny because it was so, we did it a couple times, but I think even just the second time we went to Disney Disneyland, that way, it's too much. Honestly. It sounds great, and it's great the first time to be able to skip all the lines, you know what I mean? But after that, it's like, oh, there's actually way less to do at Disneyland than you think when you don't have to wait in line for anything. Michael Jamin: That's so funny. You kind Chris Gorham: Of finish it all in four hours and then you're like, oh, Michael Jamin: Now what? Now what? Chris Gorham: Again? Michael Jamin: That's so funny. Yeah. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Michael Jamin: I'm always curious, I am always curious about how people experience I'm around you guys and how you guys experience fame and what is it like that parasocial relationship where people think they know you and they don't. They just know this part of you. Chris Gorham: It's different for everybody. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I always feel like it must be like, am I giving you what? When someone comes up to you, is there that thought in your head? Where am I giving you what you wanted? You just met me. Am I giving you what you wanted? Because I don't know what you wanted and am I who you wanted me to be for five minutes? Oh, that's funny. Chris Gorham: I don't think about it that way. I've just tried to be kind to people just, I just try to be kind. Just be kind. That's all. That's really all I'm thinking about is just because, listen, it could be worse. It's not terrible for people to be happy to see you generally. Michael Jamin: Right. Chris Gorham: That's not terrible. That's kind of nice. Can it be inconvenient? Sorry. Michael Jamin: Well, I saw a clip of Eve who played Jan Brady, right. And she was on the talk show. This clip was probably 30 years old or whatever, and someone in the audience said, can you just do it? Can you just say it? Can you say it right? And she's like, we knew what you wanted. We knew everyone knew. She wanted her to say, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. And she was like, I'm not going to say it. I won't say it, and why not? And everyone was so disappointed, and I felt for her. I was like, because she doesn't want to be your performing monkey now. And that was when she was 10. Chris Gorham: Well, that's the thing too. It's like is a one you can be kind and say no. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Chris Gorham: Right. Just being kind doesn't mean you're going to say yes to every request, Michael Jamin: But that sounds like something you've maybe had a long conversation with a therapist to come to that conversation. Really? Yeah. That's something I would struggle with. Someone would say, you know, could be kind still say, no, am I allowed to? But you're saying you came to this realization on your own. Chris Gorham: I dunno. I don't know. Listen, I do see a therapist, and so maybe I don't remember having a breakthrough about that specifically, but certainly walking things through with a therapist can only help. Also, I think being a dad helps with that because in parenting, so much of the job is saying no. And that can be really hard sometimes, certainly for some people, but it's an important part of the job. Michael Jamin: Talk about how important do you think it is, and for you to either, okay. As a writer, I think it's very important to spend at least some amount of time in therapy because if you don't know yourself, how could you possibly know another character? And I wonder if you feel the same way. Same thing about acting. Chris Gorham: Oh, I've never thought about it that way. Michael Jamin: Really? Chris Gorham: Yeah. Yeah. No, I never thought about that way. But it certainly can be helpful. I mean, for the same reason. It just, it's spending that time thinking about, and sometimes it's taking that hour just thinking about the whys of things. You spend so much of your days reacting to everything and taking the time to go, okay, why did this lead to this? Why did I do that when this happened to me? And as a person, it's going to help you stay more regulated and be just healthier in life. But also, yeah, for sure. There's going to be moments when you're going to be able to understand a character brother, because you've maybe put some thought into why people do Michael Jamin: These things, why people do. Yeah. Chris Gorham: I been, one of the things I've started doing during the strike is working as a substitute teacher. Michael Jamin: Really? For one of the public schools nearby. Chris Gorham: Yeah. Yeah. For elementary Michael Jamin: School, middle school. How hard is that? Wait for elementary school. Chris Gorham: Elementary school and middle school. Michael Jamin: And middle school. You won't have the balls to do high school, do you? Chris Gorham: School? Well, my kids at the high school, I've been banned from the high school. And also I think I'm too recognizable to be at the high school. It would be distracting. Whereas the middle school and the elementary school kids, they don't dunno anything. Michael Jamin: So what's that? Chris Gorham: What is that like? Well, it's been great actually. It's been great. And I think one of the things that you really see, or I really see is just, there's no such thing as a bad kid. There's just no such thing. Michael Jamin: So you see kids that are struggling in pain or whatever. Yeah. Chris Gorham: Listen, there's kids that act up. There's kids, but what is that? Right? They're begging for attention. Yeah. Michael Jamin: So what do you do? Chris Gorham: So it depends on the kid, but it's a great lesson that I think in talking about what we do and acting and writing, it's a great lesson to getting at why are characters behaving the way that they're behaving. In my career, I've played good guys and bad guys and everybody in between. And I'm often asked, how do you play this horrible human being? It's like, well, part of the job is figuring out why he's doing what he's doing, because it makes sense to him, either mentally or emotionally. He's doing what feels right for him in that moment. And objectively, we're looking at, Michael Jamin: Do you ask for help with that, with the director or the actor? If you're struggling with that, why am I such a dick in this scene? Chris Gorham: Sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's an important conversation if it doesn't make sense, because also sometimes, frankly, this script hasn't got you there, or I can't see it. It's like, this doesn't feel justified. Can you help me connect the dots? So Michael Jamin: Funny, just as I was saying that we ran this show with Mark Marin, the comedian, and the show was based on his life. And so we did this one, we wrote this one scene where he's giving a speech, he's getting out of rehab, and he's giving his goodbye speech or whatever. And the speech that we wrote for him was so ungracious, he was being a real jerk. It was like, goodbye, you're all good luck. See you here in three weeks because everyone, you're all going to relapse. He was such a jerk. And right before we're shooting it, mark comes up to me, he goes, I don't understand why I'm such a dick in this scene. And I'm like, uhoh, how do I break this to you based on your life, mark? And I go, Chris Gorham: It's Michael Jamin: Because Mark, sometimes you can be a dick. And I'm like, oh, here we go. He's going to punch me in the face. He's going to punch me. And he just looks at me. He goes, okay, got it. That's all he needed. Chris Gorham: I see it now. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Chris Gorham: Yeah. It was. Yeah. It's been really, yeah. One of the things that coming up in it school, you go through, you learn all these different techniques, the miser techniques, method acting is STR U Hagan and all this stuff. And so much of it, it's like watch people, watch people listen to people, listen to how different people talk, listen to how people talk about the same thing, or watch how people move. And so it's been one of the just kind of unexpected blessings about being around these kids just being exposed to an entirely different group of little humans who are so, they have fewer masks on than adults. So it just, it's really easy, especially as a dad coming in and having been around, I feel like that's an advantage for me. But just to see, it's like, oh, I see what's happening here. Oh, I see what's going on there. Oh, that's so cool. Michael Jamin: It's so fun. I can see the same thing as a writer. If I'm at a coffee shop, when you're watching two people, often people are not, if they're sitting at the same table, they're not having a conversation. They're just taking turns talking. Which is different. Which is different, right? Yes, Chris Gorham: Yes. So different. So different. It's been, yeah, it's like when you see people just, they're not listening. They're just waiting for their Michael Jamin: Turn. Yeah, they're waiting for their turn. Right. That's just so fun about the job. Wow. Yeah. Chris, we had a long talk and don't think, I think maybe we bumped on, we touched on only a couple things. We talked from last time, and yet this is all new terrain. And you, I'm so Chris Gorham: Glad. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Chris Gorham: I mean, well, you're easy to talk to my friend. Michael Jamin: Well, you're a fantastic guest. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like I learned, I learned so much. I rebranded the podcast basically was because I wanted to talk to more people. It was originally, it was about screenwriting, but I really wanted to talk to artists, basically people whose work I admire, and you for sure are one of them. And just about how they, I don't know. What's it like to be an artist and how to approach your work. I know you take it so seriously and I have so much admiration for that Chris Gorham: Man. It's the greatest job in the world, and it's a job that it matters. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it matters. I've said that and people, I made a post about that. And I don't know people, I don't know if it was well received, because it doesn't matter. But it does matter. Chris Gorham: No, it really, storytelling is one of just the founding pillars of our society and of community. Storytelling is so important. It is how we see ourselves. It's how we learn how to behave and how we learn about other people, because it's how we get outside of our own lived experience and can experience the lived experience of others. It's vital. Michael Jamin: And stories connect us. And now more than ever in this country, we need something that connects us. We're so divided. I dunno. Chris Gorham: It's one of those things that helps us feel less alone, Michael Jamin: Feels less, exactly. Feel. Chris Gorham: And the world can be a very lonely place. So I'm very, I've been very, Michael Jamin: I wonder when people's, but I wonder when people, I say this and they don't recognize the value of the arts. When I say it helps us feel less alone and they can't get there. They can't. I wonder, is it because they're just alone? I wonder if they're so alone, they can't even get there. Chris Gorham: Sometimes. Sometimes. But problems, community is just the most important thing. Strong communities lead to happier people, lead to less crime, need to just happier lives like community is so important. And it's one of the very important ways that we can help build communities by sharing our stories with each other. Or sometimes just fucking laughing about something, like needing to sit down and laugh about something or get excited or get swept away to another world. Or it can be anything, but I mean, it's as vital. It's as old as the species. Right? Michael Jamin: And when people come home Chris Gorham: Changed, Michael Jamin: Often people come home for a long day at work, hard day at work, what do they do? They'll turn on the TV even if they're not going to watch it just to feel less alone. Yeah. Chris Gorham: Yeah. No, I'm very proud of so much of the work that I've been able to do and so grateful to be allowed to do it. I really look forward to getting back to work as soon as our friends at the BTP can bring themselves to give us the deal that we need to make to get back. Michael Jamin: By the time this airs, I hope I have a little bit of a lag. I hope it's done. But some people are thinking, well, maybe it'll get done this weekend. There's some optimism. Yeah. Yeah. Chris Gorham: I hope so. I hope so. Michael Jamin: Well, if not, Chris Gorham: We'll see you on the picket lines, my friend. Michael Jamin: Oh, for sure. And you were there for sure, the writers right from the beginning. But I want to thank you again for sharing your time so generously, because this was a great talk. I think this is going to help a lot of people help me. So anytime, man, thank you again, Chris Gorm, round of applause. Thank you so much, man. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have influencer/creator expert Taylor Lorenz. Tune in as we talk about her book, “Extremely Online: The Untold Story Of Fame, Influence, And Power On The Internet” as well as her experiences working as a journalist for “The Washington Post” and “The New York Times”. We also dive into some tidbits she has about social media. Show Notes Taylor Lorenz on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz/?hl=en Taylor Lorenz on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@taylorlorenz?lang=en Taylor Lorenz on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp38w5n099xkvoqciOaeFag Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Taylor Lorenz: These old school entertainment people come on and they don't really understand the app and they clearly are not doing it themselves. They have some content assistant and then they're like, Hey kids, I guess I have to be here now. And it's like, what are you doing here? I will say the musicians do a better job. Megan Trainor has Chris Olsson, but TikTok buddy that, and music is such a part of TikTok, I feel like they get a warmer reception. Michael Jamin: You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, what the hell? It's Michael Jamin talking about today. I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about. So for those of you who have been listening for a long time, I'm always telling you, just put your work out there. Get on social media, start making a name for yourself, because whether you want to be an actor or a writer or director, you got to bring more to the table than just your desire to get a big paycheck and become rich and famous. If you can bring a market, if you can bring your audience you're going to bring, that brings a lot to the table. And so my next guest is an expert on this, and she's the author of Extremely Online, the Untold Story of Fame, influence and Power on the Internet. I'm holding up her book. If you're watching this podcast, if you're driving in the car, you can imagine that there's a book and has a cover. So please welcome, pull over your car and give a round of applause to Taylor Lorenz. Thank you Taylor for coming and joining me for talking about this. It's an honor meeting you finally. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, likewise. Excited to be here. Michael Jamin: So you wrote this great book, which I read, and there's so much, I guess there's so much. You actually document the history starting from the beginning of mommy bloggers and all these people who kind of were at the forefront and then built a name for themselves on social media. And so I'm just hoping to talk to you about how we can take some of this information and apply it to the people who listen to my podcast and follow me on social media so that they can help do the same. So I guess starting from the beginning, what was interesting that you pointed out is that women were kind of at the forefront at this whole thing. You want to talk about that a little bit? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I talk about this in the book, but in the turn of the millennium, the early aughts, this blogging was taking off and there were tons of blogs, and I talk about some of the big political and tech blogs at the time, but it wasn't really until the mommy bloggers entered onto the internet in the early aughts who were these moms, these stay at home moms that really had nothing else to do. A lot of them were shut out of the labor market, and they turned to blogging and ended up really building their own kind of feminist media empires by building audiences. And they were the first to really cultivate strong personal brands online and then leverage those personal brands to monetize. Michael Jamin: And you're right about, I remember this may have been 10 years ago or maybe longer, one of my friends, our screenwriter, she developed a TV show on these mommy bloggers. And I'm like, wait a minute. And there was a couple of people who did that. Max Nik, who was a guest on my podcast a while, a couple weeks ago, same thing. He wrote a show based on shit my dad says, but it's on a Twitter feed and there's all these people. It's so interesting. I was a little late to the game in terms of Hollywood exploiting all these markets, these people who are making names for themselves. Lemme back up for a second though. Why did you decide to even write this book? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, so I started covering this. I started as a blogger myself a little bit later. Michael Jamin: What were you blogging? Taylor Lorenz: I was blogging about my life, a lot, about my life and a lot of about online culture stuff. I thought that the mainstream media was really bad at covering the internet, and so I thought, I'm going to write about the internet. This was when I was young millennial, right out of college. Michael Jamin: You were writing about your personal life? Taylor Lorenz: Yes. Michael Jamin: Okay. So that's a whole different thing. You're opening yourself up to everything. And was there any, I know I'm jumping around here, I guess I have so many questions, but I don't know, was there backlash from that? Were there repercussions? Because we're talking about people do this. What's the backlash? Taylor Lorenz: Well, this was like 2009, so it was such a different internet, and I'm so grateful, honestly, that I was blogging in that era and not this era because I think I didn't get a lot of backlash. I had a great community. I met some of my best friends, were other bloggers from that era. I became very popular on Tumblr for my single serving like meme, like blogs. So yeah, I think when you're young, you're just kind of trying a lot of different things out. I didn't know what I wanted to do out of college. I'd never studied journalism. I didn't know I was working at a call center and just became popular on the internet and then was like, I guess I'm pretty good at this Michael Jamin: Stuff. Really? I didn't know that about it. You have a pretty big following on TikTok and Instagram as well, which is so weird because you're writing about something that you are also participating in. I mean, it's almost meta how you are, what you're talking about. No, Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. I mean, I started, had I been able to monetize my blog nowadays, content creators on TikTok, they can monetize in 2009, 2010, couldn't, the best that you could hope for was one of those book deals that Urban Outfitters. Right? Michael Jamin: But Taylor Lorenz: You couldn't really leverage it into much. I ended up just leveraging it into a career in media, which has been fun. But Michael Jamin: See, this is what's interesting to me because right now you see so many people on social media, how do I monetize this? Meaning ads or even sponsorships, but there's other ways to monetize outside of brand deals or views on YouTube getting used. So yeah, there's a whole, I don't know. Do you think that's a large percentage of people on the internet? It seems like to me most are doing it to monetize for the brand deals. What's your take on it? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, I think now that you can monetize in that way, a lot of people, that's their end goal. I'm kind of glad. I mean, it's a double-edged sword. Who knows what I could have done if I was able to monetize, but I'm really glad actually that you couldn't, because I think myself and a lot of other bloggers, we ended up going in a lot of different ways and entering into a lot of media type of jobs that, yeah, I mean would've never gotten otherwise. And I've learned how to be a journalist and I've gotten all these opportunities and my whole career from just experimenting and having fun online. So yeah, I think I always tell people, it's great if you can monetize, get the bag. If somebody comes to you offering you thousands of dollars, why not? But I think it's really good to take that virality and leverage it into, I like what Kayla Scanlan does, or Kyla, she's the economics YouTuber, and she gives all these talks about econ now, and she has a newsletter, and she's able to just do a lot more. It's not just doing a bunch of brand deals online. It's like using it to launch a career and whatever you want to have a career in. Michael Jamin: Yeah, see, I see. That's the funny, I think it's so smart what you're saying. I see some people, I'm like wondering, what's your end game out of this? Is it just to, but what you're saying is the end game, it's interesting. The end game is to do something else. And I wonder if that's what's going on with Hollywood people when I'm encouraging people to, I don't know, put theirselves out there with their art, their writing their music or whatever in my mind, to build an audience following to basically, so you can do the next thing. But I'm wondering how often that if you see that happening for people, Taylor Lorenz: I think the smart ones do recognize it. I feel like the internet, you're just hopping from lily pad to lily pad a lot of the time, which I know that's how a lot of creative people feel. It's just like, I think internet fame in itself can be a goal. I mean, look, someone like Mr. Beast, you've done it. You crack the code. Most people are not going to reach that level. And so it makes a lot of sense. If you're really into food, you're making food content, use that to open your own restaurant or food line or whatever, but use it to go into something that you're interested in because then you still, you always have that online audience. I still have my online audience. I have people that have followed me for a decade and maybe they know me from my blog or I had a Snapchat show in 2016 or things that I've done over the years, but it's always in service of my broader career. Michael Jamin: And so Well, maybe tell me what that is. Do you have a broader goal ahead of all this? Other than getting a book, which is pretty impressive. Taylor Lorenz: I know. I never thought I would write a book. And then just, there was a lot of revisionist history once the pandemic hit in 2021 and all these venture capitalists were pouring money into the content creator world, and TikTok was taking off. People were just kind of like, they were rewriting history. And I was like, I'm going to write the definitive history. I've been around for this. And I always thought it would be interesting to write a book. I didn't know anything about the publishing industry, except I have a couple friends that did those Urban Outfitters type Michael Jamin: Books. That's so funny. Taylor Lorenz: See, Michael Jamin: Oh, go ahead. I don't cut you off. So your broader goals. Oh, yeah. Taylor Lorenz: I love media. I love media. I want to keep working in media. I love creative sort of endeavors. I like writing. I make videos as I am very obsessed with news media, so I want Michael Jamin: To, right. So maybe more of that. There's a couple of things in that book, in your book that kind of took me a little bit by surprise. One is there are, well, first of all, I think there are people who make content. This is just my opinion, their content's a little disposable. And so you spoke about people who, I don't know, it's like pranksters who they got to keep upping the prank until it comes to a point where this one woman you're talking about, she was sick to her stomach with the pressure of having to come up with something all the time. And to me, it felt like that's because you're making, I guess I have a rule. I have a rule. I was like, I don't want to spend more than 10 minutes a day on this. But there are people who spend on posting, but there are people who put way a lot of time and pressure on this, and it winds up destroying themselves, don't you think? Taylor Lorenz: Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's a whole bunch of that in my book of just the burnout. And I think, like you said, it comes from just making content for content's sake and feeling like it's an extra burden and giving it, it's also when it's your whole livelihood, the stakes become higher. That's why I say you should diversify a little bit. Michael Jamin: Yeah. There was another, the thing that really surprised me that I learned from your book, because I'm a little older, so I don't really know all this stuff, but there's a whole culture of content creators who their job is just to talk shit about other content creators. Taylor Lorenz: And I'm like, Michael Jamin: Oh my God. And I've witnessed some of this stuff, but I didn't realize it's really a thing, like a gossip. They're just gossipers, right? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. They basically have replaced tabloid news for the internet, and yeah, it's a huge drama channel industrial complex online that you're lucky if you've not encountered. Michael Jamin: Yeah. And do they go anywhere with, what do you think is the end game for them? Taylor Lorenz: Well, I mean, the woman that runs DUIs, which is more of a blind item, celebrity news page, she has a podcast. She also, she wrote a novel kind of based around the content. Others like Diet Prada have really successful newsletters. A lot of the other commentators like Keemstar and stuff, their goal is just to basically run these media empires of gossip, kind of like a TMZ for the internet. Michael Jamin: And then how are they further monetizing though? Taylor Lorenz: They monetize through partnerships and brand deals and a lot through YouTube ads. They get a lot of views. A lot of them get a lot of views on YouTube. Michael Jamin: See, I just turned, maybe I'm crazy, but I turned down a brand deal today because I thought, I don't know, it doesn't align with anything that I stand for. And I was like, am I crazy for turning this down? Or I don't know. But have you get approached by things that, are you turning stuff down? Taylor Lorenz: Well, yeah, I have to turn down so much stuff. I'll never forget a tech company, which I will not name, offered me $60,000 to do three video, three audio chat rooms for them. Michael Jamin: What is an audio chat room? Taylor Lorenz: Like? A live chat type thing? It was going to be like three hours of work. And obviously I couldn't do it because I can't take on sponsored content. I'm a journalist. You can't do that, especially not with a tech company. But I have to say that one really made me question my career choices. Normally people are like, can you promote X, Y, Z? And I explained that I don't do. Michael Jamin: So there's nothing that you can promote a journalist. There's nothing. Taylor Lorenz: I mean, I could theoretically probably promote companies that I don't cover, but I don't really want to, I don't need to make $500 promoting a mop. Michael Jamin: Right, right. Yeah, it's so interesting. You have to protect what you, it's so odd because I don't see a lot of people making brand when I'm scrolling through my pages for you a page on TikTok, I don't see a lot of people making brand deals, but I guess they are, right? Am I not seeing it? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, the branded content doesn't always live on TikTok. A lot of times they'll create whitelisted content that the brand then promotes in a TikTok ad. Michael Jamin: Wait, when you say white, okay, explain this to me. So whitelisted means the creator. Go ahead. Taylor Lorenz: The creator creates branded content, but it doesn't necessarily live on their feed. They create it for the brand, and then the brand will use that video they made to the creator, like, wow, I love my air stick selfie thing. They'll run ads. So it's using that creator's likeness in the ad. It's the video that they made, but you're not going to see it on their page. You're going to see it in the, Michael Jamin: But do they not put it on their page or you're not going to see it? No one's going to watch it. Taylor Lorenz: Sometimes they do put it on their page, sometimes they don't. I mean, all of these are negotiated in the terms of the ad deals, which are structured increasingly in complicated ways. But I mean, there's a lot of spun con on TikTok. Also, sometimes there's product placement on TikTok. You'll see people doing videos with certain products. Sometimes the products have paid to be in their, Michael Jamin: And they have to mention this, right? They have to, I wasn't aware of this, but theoretically, yes, theoretically. But you're saying they don't always mention it. They don't always say, this is Taylor Lorenz: The sponsor. So the FTC says Yes, and I write about that decision in 2017 when they had to do that. The thing is that a lot of times they can get away with not saying it because it's not directly sponsored. For instance, you could have a long-term, year long partnership with the brand. They could be giving you tons of free product, but they didn't directly pay you for that post. So you feel like, oh, I don't have to disclose it, Michael Jamin: But they paid you for something. I mean, that doesn't make sense. They paid you. It's totally great. Okay. Yeah. But Taylor Lorenz: People get around it by kind of fudging things. Michael Jamin: Who would get in trouble then if they got caught? The brand, not the TikTok or whatever. Taylor Lorenz: Not really. I mean, they went after Kim Kardashian. If you're that level, they'll go after you. But normally they're going after the brands. The brands are usually doing this. And also it's ultimately the brand or the agency that's running the marketing campaign that's up. It's up to them to enforce it and be like, Hey, put this in your caption. Michael Jamin: You said something else that surprised me in your book is that at one point, maybe it's still this way that the agencies are making the money and many of the creators are not getting that money. Explain to me what happens. I read it twice. It's like, wait, I'm missing something. So Taylor Lorenz: There's been this explosion in sort of middlemen agencies, management companies that have come in. And what they do is they find these up and coming creators, they sign them into contracts like, Hey, I'll handle all your spun con, or I'll come in and do this deal. And then they take a huge portion, the brand pays maybe a hundred thousand dollars for a campaign. The agency will come in and take 50% of that or something, and then the rest goes to the creators. They allocate it, so Michael Jamin: They're getting something. You could Taylor Lorenz: Argue that they are providing a service, and that's true, but the less ethical agencies are less upfront about the amount that they're taking. Michael Jamin: Interesting. Oh, they don't tell you how much it is? Probably, Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. They won't tell you what the brand originally paid. They'll just say, oh, it's $10,000 for this campaign. Nevermind that we got a hundred thousand dollars from the actual Michael Jamin: Brand. Oh, wow. Yeah. There's so much to be careful. There really is. And so I asked you a little bit earlier if you knew of many. Okay, so I'll let give you an example from my experience. So I did a show, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, maybe not maybe 10. And the studio, we had a cast a role, and the studio wanted to get an influencer to play the part because this influencer had a bigger audience than the network had. And he turned it down several times because the money, he was going to paid a lot of money, but the money wasn't worth it to him. He was making more on a daily, which I was shocked about. And so do you know more? Can you speak more to that? Taylor Lorenz: That happens all the time. Yeah. Michael Jamin: Really? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. Michael Jamin: I thought this guy was crazy, but okay, go on. Taylor Lorenz: Well, I mean, for a lot of content creators, their goal, it depends on the content creators. Some content creators, their goal is to get into Hollywood, and that would be an amazing opportunity for them. But especially the ones at the upper echelon, they're already the a-list of the internet. They're making millions of dollars. They really don't need to engage. And maybe it's a fun thing if they want to do it, and they have time and it's like a novelty type thing, or it adds some sort of legitimacy to them. But a lot of times, if they're spending, for instance, hours on a set, that's money out of their pocket that they could be making a lot. So it kind of doesn't make sense. And people have struggled. Not every content creator succeeds as well. So I think some of them do have that feeling of like, look, I'm really good at this. I know I'm really good at this. I'm making money. Do I want to gamble? Take time away from that. Try my hand at this thing that maybe I have and succeeded at before. It's not always there. Michael Jamin: Maybe I shouldn't even ask this on as we're being recorded. Do you know this guy, nurse Blake? Have you heard of him? Taylor Lorenz: I don't think so. Wait, Michael Jamin: Okay. Because I can't tell if he's a comedian or a nurse, but whatever he is, he's selling out arenas. Taylor Lorenz: Oh, I know this guy. I've seen him before. Yes. He's a comedian, right? Michael Jamin: Well, he doesn't act, but I also see him also posting in the hospital. It seems like he could be selling out arenas, but also he likes doing the rounds or something. I don't know. Yeah. Taylor Lorenz: So it's so funny. I don't know when you joined TikTok, but the earliest content creators on TikTok back in 2018, when it flipped from musically to TikTok, the earliest groups of content creators that emerged were police officers, nurses and service workers. And they were all gaining huge audiences. And I think it's because those jobs have an enormous amount of downtime, and they kind of almost have interesting stages themselves. They're always in the hospital or at Walmart working or whatever. And so there's a lot of people like that on social media that have kind of pivoted their career in that way to, Michael Jamin: Okay. I've been on a TikTok for maybe two and a half years, and at first I was very self-conscious. I was like, isn't this the app where teenage girls shuffle dance? Am I going to be the creepy guy on this app? And you're saying, it's so hard to tell. I mean, the first time, my first week and a half of posts were like this, this is cringey. Taylor Lorenz: They always say, you know what? My favorite quote is that I think all the time Xavier from Party Shirt said this, that everything is cringe until it gets views. And I think that's Michael Jamin: True. Until it gets Taylor Lorenz: It's popular. It's not cringe anymore, Michael Jamin: I guess. So when you first started posting, did you look to anyone for, I don't know, to emulate? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. I mean, there's this woman, Katie nais, who's still hilarious internet person, and she's a blogger too. She ended up working at Buzzfeed for a decade. I always just wanted to be like her. She was so creative and funny. She had this website called, I think it was called Party something. She would aggregate really funny party photos, and she just was really good at finding funny things on the internet. Michael Jamin: And do you know, have you reached out to her? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, now I'm friends with her because I've been obsessed with her for my whole career. So she Michael Jamin: Very really, so now you have a friendship with her. That's nice. Do you get recognized a lot when you're out and about? Taylor Lorenz: Not in la. No one gives a shit about me in la. Michael Jamin: But when you're out somewhere else, if I'm not Taylor Lorenz: VidCon or something, yeah, usually. I mean, I got recognized in DC on my book tour when I was eating. That was cool. But yeah, sometimes, I mean, when I was doing my Snapchat show, I got recognized a lot more, I think, because a lot of kids were seeing me on the Snapchat Discover Channel thing. Michael Jamin: I was on your link tree, you're everywhere, but are you active on every, I'm like, damn. She's on every platform. Taylor Lorenz: I'm an equal opportunity poster. Well, I mean, I cover this world, so I kind of feel obligated to be on everything. I definitely think Instagram and TikTok are my main ones. And then I have threads also now, Michael Jamin: Which I, are you making different content you posting? Are you reposting or posting brand new stuff? Everywhere. Taylor Lorenz: I repost. If I make a short video for TikTok, I repost it on reels and YouTube shorts. YouTube's always the one that I like. I'm so lazy about, honestly, Michael Jamin: It's hard to grow on YouTube. It's so Taylor Lorenz: Hard to grow, and I don't know, it's just like there's something demoralizing about YouTube. Michael Jamin: Interesting. Taylor Lorenz: But yeah, I think it's because it's like, you know how it is, it's like you post something, you get a hundred thousand views on TikTok, it's doing really well on Instagram. And then you go on YouTube and it's like me, 2000 views, and you're like, oh, I'm a Michael Jamin: Failure. What's the point of that? And you were blocked. Are you still blocked from Twitter or whatever? Twitter is? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. Elon banned me for a while. I did get back on. I don't really, Twitter is dead to me, honestly. Michael Jamin: What did you do to get banned? Taylor Lorenz: I was, well, he banned me under this rule that he made that said you couldn't promote your links to other social media profiles. And I was promoting my Instagram account, so that's what he technically banned me under. But what he really banned me for is that I reached out to him for comment. I wrote a story about how he completely lied about a bunch of stuff, and I reached out to him for comment. And the minute I reached out to him for comment, I got banned. And then he tried to say, oh, it was actually because she was promoting her Instagram. No, Michael Jamin: That was Oh, interesting. So do you think he was guy, do you, you made it he enemy. He responds. He knows who you are and hates you. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. Oh, he definitely, yes. I mean, I've interacted with him somewhat frequent basis, but that week I was not the only journalist that was banned for reporting on him. So the same week, drew Harwell, my colleague was banned, and then a bunch of people from the New York Times, we all got banned within a week, so Michael Jamin: Wow. Back Taylor Lorenz: On. Michael Jamin: And then they let you back on. Interesting. And then you're, screw this. Taylor Lorenz: But yeah, Twitter is also just very toxic and political, and I think culture is happening more on TikTok. Michael Jamin: Don't you think they're all toxic? Taylor Lorenz: Oh, totally. But I think Twitter's uniquely toxic. TikTok is toxic in a different way. Michael Jamin: Okay. I want to know what you think the differences are in each platform, because I have opinions, but Okay. Yeah. What are your differences? I mean, Taylor Lorenz: Twitter is just very political, and it's political in a way that there's a lot of, especially as a member of the media, it's like there's a lot of journalists on there. I think it's a giant group chat for a lot of media people. It's stressful. Editors, bosses are on there. I don't really use it. I use it to keep up with, I'm super immunocompromised, and so I keep up with Covid News on there. It's really the only thing I use it for. It's really hard to get news and information because Elon has sort of made so many changes to make it hard to get news on there. So I don't mess with Twitter. TikTok I love. But yeah, I mean, TikTok is just mob mentality. So I mean, I'll never forget. I defended, do you remember West Elm Caleb? Michael Jamin: No. And it's so funny when you say these names. I'm like, these ridiculous names. I'm like, no, I don't know that comic book character. Taylor Lorenz: Okay, well, west Elm Caleb a year and a half ago was getting canceled on TikTok. He was a guy that ghosted a bunch of people. He ghosted a bunch of women, and a bunch of women went on TikTok, like, this guy's a ghoster. And it got so crazy that he got fully doxxed and fired from his job. And anyway, I defended him and I was like, Hey guys, can we calm down a little bit? We haven't even heard this guy's side of the story. I believe he shouldn't be an asshole to women, but I've been doxxed. It sucks. Don't do that. And TikTok, they came for me hard on that one. They were like, no, Michael Jamin: No, Taylor Lorenz: Somebody from West Tom, Caleb. Michael Jamin: And then, yeah. How worried are you about, I worry about that. How worried about you getting haters and stuff? Taylor Lorenz: I've gotten haters. I write about YouTubers for a living. So if I was worried about haters, it doesn't matter. My friend is a pop music writer, and he was saying, he told me a couple years ago, because if anytime you are covering something with a fandom, you're going to deal with haters. And they're vicious, but a lot of them are 11 years old, or they're just online and they're mad and Michael Jamin: Okay. Do you respond to your posts comments on your post? You do. Taylor Lorenz: I do. I try to mean, don't try not to respond to haters. Sometimes I'm weak and I do respond to the haters, but no Michael Jamin: Good comes of it. Right? When you do, no, Taylor Lorenz: No good comes of it. But sometimes you just, I don't know. You just got to, but Michael Jamin: Even if you respond with kindness, which I did today to somebody, he just doubled down on his stupidity. They don't care. Why am I trying to, Taylor Lorenz: They don't care at all. They're like, fuck you. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. No, it doesn't help. I mean, sometimes if I'm bored, I've replied something, but I mostly just ignore those people, or I limit my comments and I try to keep it to that only my community's engaging and not a bunch of randos. Or if they have a good faith question, I get a lot of story ideas from people commenting. Or sometimes smart people will comment, you click on their profile, you're like, oh, cool. Person's interesting. Right. Michael Jamin: Okay. Okay. So you sound emotionally mature about this whole thing? Maybe more than I am because I get upset sometimes. Taylor Lorenz: No, trust me, I've had my moments. It's hard. But I think I've just been through it so long. I've been through the cycle so many times that I'm immune. Michael Jamin: And do you talk to your colleagues who, I guess, are they as active as you are on, let say on TikTok? No. Other reporters? Taylor Lorenz: Journalists are not. It's weird with journalists on TikTok. They're not really, journalists are so addicted to Twitter. Twitter is where everyone in the media is. And there's some journalists on TikTok, but not that many. So the ones that are, I think we all try to support each other, Michael Jamin: Or it's just not competitive. Yeah, it's supportive. You think? Taylor Lorenz: I try to be supportive. I don't, like somebody said this really early on of Don't compete collab or something. It was like early thing. And I really like that. I felt that with blogging too. I had made friends with a lot of bloggers. We were all in the same group. And it's just like the internet is really vast and everyone is unique. And Michael Jamin: There's not too Taylor Lorenz: Many internet culture reporters either. So, Michael Jamin: Well, that's a question I can't tell how big TikTok is. Sometimes I'll see, oh my God, this creator knows that creator, and they talk whether they stick to each other. I'm like, wow, this is a small place. But then I'm wondering, well, maybe I'm only seeing this wedge of the pie, and it's actually much larger. I can't get a sense of how big this thing is. Taylor Lorenz: It is really big. I mean, it's like billions of users, so it's really big. But I do think that in Michael Jamin: Terms of the creators though, the Taylor Lorenz: Creator community is smaller than you think. And I think the people that are really active, they form a network. And you're always going to get people that are a couple degrees away from people that you follow usually. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Where do you think, I'm certainly not the first person to say this, but during the early days of Instagram, it was always about people. This is the glamorous life. It was all made up. It was like they got sponsored posts to be on a yacht or whatever. They're pretending to be rich and famous or whatever. And because we're all idiots, we're like, wow, they're rich and famous, and they're living that life. And then that somehow evolved to now influences turn to creators, and creators are more authentic. This is my life. Take it or leave it. What do you think there's next? What comes next after that? Do you have any idea? Yeah, Taylor Lorenz: I mean, I think we always flip back and forth between aspirational versus authenticity. And people want a little bit of both. People still want the aspirational content. It's just not everything. And I do think that the authenticity is part of the appeal, and I don't think it's going away anytime soon. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, different content formats perform well depending on what the platform is promoting. So right now, they really want long form video. So I think we're going to see people that succeed in long form grow faster. Michael Jamin: But do you think when you're posting, maybe you don't even want to answer this on the air. I wouldn't blame you. Are you thinking about, oh, this post will do Well, I should talk about this. I know it'll do well. Or is it like, this is what I'm talking about, take it or leave it? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. It depends on the day. Some days so many times where I'm like, oh, I know this would do well, but I just don't feel like posting today. Michael Jamin: Oh, really? Especially Taylor Lorenz: Lately, oh my God. There's been so many things where I'm like, oh, that's going to go viral. And then I see somebody else posted and I'm like, good. They got the traffic. You have to be early on something. And then sometimes just most stuff I just post because I think it's interesting, and it's just my taste and news and information and just something I found interesting. But how Michael Jamin: Long will you spend on a post? Do you do it again and again until you get it right? No. One take and you're done? Taylor Lorenz: Usually, maybe I'll do two or three if I might rerecord something, but I don't take it that seriously. It's just one of many things I'm doing during the day, so not, and especially since I've been on book tour, I've just been too busy to make. I go through periods and it depends on how busy I am, how many videos I'm making. Michael Jamin: And how much of your personal life, because I know you're talking about technology and you're interviewing people and you're covering events like a journalist, but how much of yourself do you share? Taylor Lorenz: I share my opinions. I mean, I'm very opinionated, and I think I always tell people that you can be very authentic. And I think a lot of people would find me to be very authentic person online. I'm not a shy person or something, but I don't talk about my personal information. Also, it's not that interesting, I think. Oh, but Michael Jamin: People would love to know. People would love to know. I know Date you Taylor Lorenz: Nosy. They're nosy. But I think about all the cool stuff that I did in my twenties, and I'm like, I wish I had TikTok, I think back then, and I was talking about my life more. I was doing more and going out more. And now I'm like, I have a little bit more of a chill life. So sometimes I talk about walking around the Silver Lake reservoir or something, but I'm not like, if I go to a really interesting event, maybe I'll share it. I mean, I just went to Dubai and I actually haven't posted yet, but I'm making a video about that. Michael Jamin: I can't believe you went. That flight is just too long. I would think it was Taylor Lorenz: So long. It was so long. But I got invited to this book festival, and I thought, when else am I going to go? Michael Jamin: Okay, what is a book festival? Taylor Lorenz: So there's this really big book festival called the Sharjah International Book Festival, and it's huge. And there's thousands of authors and books, and yeah, I got invited to speak, and I thought, Michael Jamin: Oh, you're speaking. So what if you're not speaking, what happens to Is everyone, okay? If you weren't invited to speak, would you be at a booth? What is it? Yeah, Taylor Lorenz: You just attend. I mean, there's thousands of people that attend and they just come from all over to, there's a lot of book buyers, and then there's a lot of publishing industry people in the Middle East and in Europe and that side of the world. And then there's just a lot of people that are interested in meeting the authors, going to panels. There's a lot of celebrity author type people there. Michael Jamin: Who's setting that up? Your publisher or who? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, the publisher. Actually, I think maybe my book agent forwarded it to me. They were forwarded it to me, look at this random thing, and I was like, no, that's so cool. I want to do it. Michael Jamin: Oh, wow, really? And so did they fly you out? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, they flew me out. They didn't pay me or anything. They just flew me out and covered my travel, which honestly was enough for me. It was pretty cool. How Michael Jamin: Many days were you there? Taylor Lorenz: I was only there for three, four days. Four days, Michael Jamin: Including the flight, which was the Taylor Lorenz: Travel was a day on each side because the travel was Michael Jamin: Long. And then you were there for the rest of the time, and you spoke on the panel? I was on the panel. That's an hour, Taylor Lorenz: Michael. I just did tourist stuff. I didn't have to do anything aside from that, so I was like, let me just go. Michael Jamin: Oh, okay. So it was a chance for you to be a tourist. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. My friend is an editor over there for Bloomberg, and so we hung out and just did all the cool Dubai stuff together. Michael Jamin: But I'm curious because it's interesting, since you were a journalist, are we supposed to know anything about you? I mean, are there rules? Yeah, Taylor Lorenz: It's so funny. So the old school sort of notions of journalism is like, I'm serious, and I don't talk about my life, and I never share an opinion. I think that's a very outdated and dumb model of journalism that nobody will trust. That's why we have a crisis in media, I think, of trust is because people don't know about, there's so much mistrust in the media, and I'd much rather be upfront with my beliefs and tell people, Hey, look, this is what I'm thinking about the issue. Do you think I'm wrong? Do you think I'm right? Ultimately, the goal of writing any article is to be fair and accurate. Michael Jamin: We Taylor Lorenz: All Michael Jamin: Have. I thought you weren't supposed to be biased. I thought you were supposed to. Why do I know? I thought you supposed to. This is the Taylor Lorenz: Fact everyone. Everyone has opinions, right? There's no such thing on earth. The point is, is that you're not allowed. You shouldn't let that kind of shape the story to the point that it alters the truth. But to act like, oh, I don't have opinions as a journalist, that's stupid. We're all human beings. We all have opinions. Baseball writers that write about sports teams, they still are fans of a specific team. That doesn't mean that it's going to shape their coverage. That's the most important thing. It's like, I might love or hate certain things on the internet, but I'm not going to let it affect some story to the point that it would be truthful. You know what I mean? Michael Jamin: This gets into something else. Whereas you're kind of maybe, I don't know if this isn't the right word, but a celebrity journalist, because you recently had a photo spread in this magazine, and they're dressing you up and couture, right? I mean, so what's that about? You're celebrity journalist. Taylor Lorenz: I know. I've been in a couple things like that. Yeah, I mean, look, journalists have always been, it's always been a public facing job. It's always been a public. I mean, Woodward and Bernstein, obviously. Bob Woodward also works at The Post. He's incredibly famous. Anderson Cooper, Barbara Walters, the original female journalist, Katie Couric. All these journalists are, well-known household names because of their journalism, but of course, they're also people. And I think with the internet now, that's all come to a smaller scale. I'm definitely not at those people's levels at all. But with the internet, I think we all follow journalists and content creators. And again, it goes back to transparency. That's what I think is a big problem with that old model of media, where it's like, don't ever speak your opinion or something on anything. Because I think actually when you don't and you try to sort of act like, oh, I don't have an opinion, that's a lie. Everyone has an opinion on everything. Or maybe, but you should just be honest about it because that helps people trust you. I can be like, look, I don't love, this is a total example. I do love Emma Chamberlain, but I could be like, I don't love Emma Chamberlain, but I had the opportunity to interview her editing style was pioneering. It transformed YouTube. I wrote about it in my book, X, Y, Z. I'm not going to let my personal feelings about her color, but I would answer questions about it. If somebody asked me, I'd be like, well, here's my thoughts. Michael Jamin: Okay, so what is your daily life then? Do you freelance all these? How does it work? What is your life? Taylor Lorenz: No, I work for the Washington Post. So I am on our morning meeting every day at 8:00 AM on Zoom. Michael Jamin: Okay. Is no one, well, that's a good question. Is everyone online now? If you work for the Washington Post, does no one go to the office? Taylor Lorenz: They have a big office in Washington, but I moved out here with the New York Times, so I was at the New York Times for several years, and New York Times does have an office in la. So they moved me out here, and then the Post recruited me, and I was like, well, I'm not leaving la. And they have a lot of people from the post in LA obviously as well. Are you Michael Jamin: From, I thought you were from la. No, Taylor Lorenz: No. I live in la, but I'm from New York originally. Michael Jamin: Oh, where are you in New York? Are you from? Taylor Lorenz: Well, I lived on the Upper East Side when I was little, and I lived all over New York. I've lived, I think 11 different neighborhoods, Michael Jamin: But all, not all in Manhattan? Taylor Lorenz: No, no, no, no. Mostly in Brooklyn. I was in Fort Green before I moved. Michael Jamin: Okay. I didn't know that. So you're a New Yorker. Okay. Yeah. And then not anymore. So are you pitching them ideas or are they telling you, this is what we want you to cover today? Taylor Lorenz: It's a mix. I would say it's probably like 80 to 90% coming up with your own ideas. The rest of it. Sometimes there's an editor assigned story. Most of the time it's breaking news. So for instance, the war breaks out. I cover TikTok. I cover the content. So they're like, well, is there an angle on it? Michael Jamin: Why is news? My God. So what is most of your day then? Is it surfing the internet, or is it making calls to experts or whatever? Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, it's a mix. I wish it was surfing the internet all day, but it's a lot of meetings, a lot of, we have editorial meetings where we discuss coverage and we all give feedback on our stories. And I have meetings with my editor to talk about stories. I write features, so I generally write longer pieces. Sometimes I'm working on investigations for months. Michael Jamin: And then how did you have, go ahead. Go Taylor Lorenz: Ahead. Oh, yeah, it's a mix of, I do a lot of interviews and I do a lot of informational interviews, and I do a lot of consuming content and Michael Jamin: Keeping Well, then where did you get the time to write this book? It sounds very busy. Taylor Lorenz: I know. And I didn't take book leave like an idiot. I was like, I'll just do it nights and weekends. Michael Jamin: People go on book leave. Taylor Lorenz: Leave, yeah. But it's unpaid, so that's how they get you. And I didn't want to do that, so I thought I'll just try to do it all on top of my job. And I did, but it took me two years. Michael Jamin: Are you working on your next book? What's that? Taylor Lorenz: No, I'm not doing another book. Michael Jamin: You're done for now, but you will at some point Taylor Lorenz: Maybe. Sure. Like yours. I don't want to do that right now. Michael Jamin: It was really hard. Why? I know. It was a lot of work, a lot of research, and Taylor Lorenz: Just the fact-checking. I interviewed about 600 people for the book, and it was just a lot. And throughout it all, I make videos, I do. I speak at things. I go to events. I have a lot going on in between. Michael Jamin: And how are you getting these speaking engagements? You're a celebrity now? Taylor Lorenz: No. No, but I talk at industry conferences type stuff a lot. Just like VidCon or things like Michael Jamin: That. What is VidCon? Stop talking. I know what I'm talking about. I don't even know what that is. Taylor Lorenz: Wait, Michael, you need to come to VidCon next year. Michael Jamin: I don't even know what it is. Taylor Lorenz: Oh my God. VidCon is the largest, so Michael Jamin: Ignorant. Taylor Lorenz: No, no, no. You know what? You would have no reason to know it. It's the biggest conference for, it's a convention for online content creators. It's in Anaheim every year. They also have VidCon Baltimore this year. But it's a big convention where all the big content creator type people get together and the industry sort of. Michael Jamin: So are you going as a guest or are you going as a speaker? Taylor Lorenz: I've mostly, in recent years, gone as a speaker, but I used to go as a guest. Michael Jamin: And so what do you do as a guest? Taylor Lorenz: As a guest, you get to meet your biggest, you meet the big content creators that are there, talkers meet and greets. You go to panels, you can go to events. There's parties. It's kind of like a fun thing if you're up and coming or you care about the internet. It used to be a really big thing. I mean, I talk about this a little bit in the book, but it started in 2010, and it started as this small thing of just the biggest creators on the internet getting together just because there was no event, physical event. And then it got bought by Viacom, and now it's this huge. Michael Jamin: So now they reach out to you to say, we want you to be on a panel or something. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, I'm always talking about, sometimes I do interviews with big content creators on the main stage. They need somebody to interview Charlie Delio or something. And so I'll do that. Sometimes. I'm talking about, I mean, I did one, I think it was last year or the year before, on news content creators. That's something that people always want me to talk Michael Jamin: About all. So we don't live far for each other. So we'll ride fair. If you like riding in a Jeep, you're not afraid of writing into Jeep. Taylor Lorenz: I think you might be recognized. Maybe you'll be a speaker soon. They love the entertainment people. There was some women they had there one year. They always get some weird entertainment celebrity that has a YouTube channel to come, and they're always really out of place. It's very funny. Michael Jamin: They wait, why would they be out of place if they're famous? If they're a celebrity? They're Taylor Lorenz: Not internet people. They don't even run their own channel usually. Michael Jamin: Oh, I see. So that's a whole different thing when celebrities put themselves. That's the thing. I read somewhere, well, I guess there was pushback when a celebrity gets on YouTube, it's like, Hey, or TikTok, get off TikTok celebrity. It's like, why is everyone so mad? But I guess maybe talk a little about that. What happens when they try to do that? Taylor Lorenz: I think it's just these old school entertainment. People come on and they don't really understand the app and they clearly are not doing it themselves. They have some content assistant and then they're like, Hey kids, I guess I have to be here now. And it's like, what are you doing here? I will say, the musicians do a better job. Megan Trainor has Chris Olsson, her TikTok buddy that, and music is such a part of TikTok. I feel like they get a warmer reception. But people, I mean, when Reese Smith first joined, people were like, they were in the comments being mean to Michael Jamin: Her. Aren't you rich enough? Reese? But there is some woman I follow, and I was shocked. I'm like, there's so many ways that people are making on this. And she talks about politics, so she's like a punt. That's her passion. So I'm like, okay, let's get her take on it. But she also does these, they're called TRO trips. Have you heard of this TRO Trotro trip? And so basically it's this website. So she'll run a trip in Europe, we're going to Italy for a week, come onto this and you can pay her basically to be your tour guide. Taylor Lorenz: Oh, this, I see. It's like a host. They're hosting you for the tour. Interesting. Oh my gosh, Michael Jamin: Yes. I'm like, how smart. So she basically gets a free trip, but she has to be with people for a week. She's the host. Well, Taylor Lorenz: They were doing that with our New York Times when I was at the New York Times. I think they stopped doing it because one of the reporters was being controversial on the trip, and I think they kind of scaled back the program, but I think they were like, actually, we don't want our reporters talking to the public. But they used to have people travel with New York Times reporters, and that was a way that the New York Times made money off journalists. Michael Jamin: Oh, wow. And for the same kind of thing where let's go tour the Vatican or something. Taylor Lorenz: It would be like tour the Vatican with the Times Michael Jamin: Reallys recording or whatever. It's so weird. But there's just so many ways for people to, I don't know, make a name for themselves. I was good for her. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, totally. I mean, there's just endless ways to monetize online. Michael Jamin: I haven't discovered any of them yet, but I'm waiting for it. I got my eyes peeled, but okay, so yeah, so you go to this VidCon thing, you do a panel, and then people want your opinion. And I imagine it's people a lot smaller than you who aspire to be you. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. Or it's just people in different industries that are there to learn more about the industry or It's a lot of brand people too. The head of marketing for Walmart or something. Michael Jamin: Oh, really? Taylor Lorenz: Want to understand the ecosystem. Michael Jamin: Oh, so they're not talking, I don't know, conferences. I don't know what this is about. It depends. Taylor Lorenz: I mean, sometimes those people, if they're really good, I mean, I actually know the woman who runs the Walmart, influencer marketing was also at this event I was at recently. So that's a bad example. But a lot of times it's like marketers, maybe they're not totally in it yet, or they're a brand that wants to understand the content creator world, but they don't. Maybe they're not doing that yet, or they want to do more of it. So they go to these events to build connections. And Michael Jamin: So you're saying, I should go to this thing. Taylor Lorenz: I think you should go to VidCon. It's interesting. It's fun to just go to once. And there's a lot of fans there too. So there's the industry side, then there's the fan side, and then there's just all these sort of adjacent events. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Alright, so what about other people who have, I guess, transition from, I guess I'm saying, what I'm thinking is how can we help my listeners into, I don't know, everyone turns to me for like, Hey, what should I put on? It's like, I don't know, just build a following. Do you have advice for them? Taylor Lorenz: Everyone asked me the same thing, and I'm like, I wish it was easy. If I could give you a three step thing, we would all have millions of followers. I mean, a huge part is consistency, which is very hard. And I have to say, you post forever. You can't get obsessed with the views because people just quit and they feel like, oh, if you have an audience of 500 people, that really matters. It is very much about creating more of a community of people, and it is scale. So I think it's just, that's so valuable, and it also matters who's following you, rather than just getting random views. You want influential or interesting or whatever type of market you're trying to go for. You want the right people to follow you. Michael Jamin: Well, this is something that I was always perplexed at the beginning of TikTok, so I guess both of them, but on TikTok, you have followers that are, I get all these followers. I'm like, but if I have all these followers and only a 10th of them are seeing an average post or less, what's the point? Why? Why do I keep track of this metric? Why do they have the metric of followers if they don't show it to your followers? Taylor Lorenz: The way that I explain TikTok is following is just one signal to the algorithm. It's one signal out of probably thousands. And so it's useful. It's like, I have an affinity to this person. Obviously, you follow people too. Then you're mutuals, and then you can DMM with each other more, or comment. Sometimes you can put videos to Mutuals only. So there is a value, I think, in following, but most of people's experience is of consuming content on TikTok is obviously through the for you page. So I wouldn't even, followers doesn't matter that much, right? Michael Jamin: It doesn't. Taylor Lorenz: And also it's like, again, it goes back to who is following you. There's so many creators that people always wonder this with press, because people are like, why? How do I get written about? And it's really not about how big you are. It's like, do you have something new and interesting, or have you cultivated some sort of unique audience that maybe hasn't been served before? Things like that. So you don't have to be the biggest, Michael Jamin: Well, I say this, there's this one guy, I'm trying to remember his name, but he has a show, he's sold a show somewhere. I should know his name, but it was a Twitter feed, and he was just writing, he had a thriller. So every day he posts a little different line from this thriller he was writing. Oh, cool. And then it just blew up because it's mystery and suspense, and people wanted to find out what was in the basement or whatever. Then he was able to, I was like, oh, that's a good idea. So he did it. And so I don't know. Are you following any other people who do anything like that? Taylor Lorenz: Twitter. Twitter. There was this period on Twitter where there were a lot of TV writers and comedians were trying things out there, and you could really get traction, and people were looking at Twitter. Now, no one's looking at that anymore. I would say it's much more TikTok and Instagram for comedy, and that's just where it is. But I mean, things people make, I mean, I was interested, this guy, Ari Kagan, who is kind of like a young director, content creator. He doesn't like to be called a content creator, but he just sold a show with Adam McKay, where they're making it for TikTok. Michael Jamin: They're making it for TikTok. Wait a minute, what does that mean? Taylor Lorenz: They're going to make it on TikTok. It's going to live on TikTok, I guess, Michael Jamin: But not as, what we do is some kind of different TikTok channel or something where it's long form. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah, yeah, it's, hold on, let me find it. I want to actually get it right. Oh, yeah. Here. It's a series that they're making on TikTok. Hold on. It happened when I was, okay. I just put it in the chat. Okay. Yeah, I think it's scripted. Yeah, it's a scripted series to run on TikTok. Michael Jamin: So you may or may not. That means you may or may not see it like we were just talking Taylor Lorenz: About. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I guess they're hoping that it'll perform well. I'm sure they're going to put paid media behind it, but Michael Jamin: Oh, okay. Oh, okay. How interesting. Yeah, this whole thing is so you got to be honest, people are always saying, how do I break into Hollywood? And I'm thinking, well, you don't need to. You can do this on your own. Taylor Lorenz: I mean, Ari did a lot on his own initially. I think that's how a lot of people get in there, is they sort of start making their own little projects. I mean, one person that I think has done this really well, he is an actor. His name is Brian Jordan Alvarez. Do you know him? Michael Jamin: No. Taylor Lorenz: Oh my God. Michael Jamin: So I got to know who. Taylor Lorenz: Alright, Michael Jamin: Put him in the chat. Taylor Lorenz: I'm going to put him in the chat. He was an actor on Will and Grace and he was in Megan, and he is very funny. I'll put, oh, he has a Wikipedia now. He's big time. He's an actor, but it makes this really amazing content. And he started making music online and these series online and I think it's like helped him a lot. I mean, everyone knows who he is now. He's been in Time Magazine and stuff, and it's mostly from his, he made this YouTube series a while ago that was popular, and then his tiktoks took off and he started making music. But it's like, Michael Jamin: All right, I got to follow this guy. You're saying Taylor Lorenz: He's very funny, but it's just raised his profile a lot. I think what he does on the internet, and he does it in a really fun way. And I listened to him on a podcast recently, and he was just saying how it's led to more people kind of knowing his work, and obviously people see his work and then they want to work with you. Michael Jamin: Right. Do you have a podcast yet? Taylor Lorenz: Careful. Michael Jamin: Maybe I might tune. Taylor Lorenz: We'll see, I had one and then the New York Times made me quit it. The Times is crazy about outside projects, so I quit Michael Jamin: It. Oh, really? Hope that the post is not as, maybe they don't. Taylor Lorenz: They're better. That's why I work there now. Michael Jamin: Wow. You got your hand in so many different things. Yeah. I don't know. I just thought you're absolutely fascinated because you are an expert, but you're also in it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Is it overwhelming for you? Taylor Lorenz: I think I have good boundaries because I mean, I'm grateful to be a millennial where I think it's harder for the 22 year olds today where everything, their whole social life is so enmeshed in the internet. I think I have a healthy distance from it, and I have friends that are just my friends that aren't internet. Michael Jamin: So your boundaries are basically how much time you're willing to invest every day on being online. And also just Taylor Lorenz: Like I have a very strong sense of self, and I think when you get on the internet, everybody tries to push you into doing things or making content or being like, oh, you should do this, or, oh, you should do this. And I have always had a mind of, actually, I know what I want and I'm going to do this, and I'm just going to do only what I want. I know who I am if people, because it's hard on the internet and sometimes things perform well. So if I had continued to talk about my life, I think that probably would've performed well back when I was blogging, but I made the decision to just stop doing Michael Jamin: That. But you're right, if something's controversial, I try to steer away from controversy. I feel like I'm just here to talk about art and entertainment and writing and Hollywood, but I also know if I took a bigger stand on things and pissed people off, it would go viral. But then what's the point of this? I don't know. Taylor Lorenz: Then you get all these haters. I've written a lot of political stories that have to do with the content creator world and the political ecosystem, and so those are some of my most viral stories. But I have to say, it just gets you a lot of people that then follow you. They feel like, oh yeah, she's on our side on this, or whatever, or, oh, I hate her. She wrote about this content creator that. So I think it's just better to just be true to yourself. Yeah, Michael Jamin: Though I did a post couple, maybe when I first started off and it went, somehow Yahoo picked up on it and I was on Yahoo Entertainment News. My first reaction was, oh no. You know what I'm saying? Oh no. People know about me. It felt wrong. I don't know. I was like, I don't want people knowing about me. Taylor Lorenz: I know. It feels really, I mean, I've struggled with that a lot, and I actually really like being in LA for this reason. I was thinking just the past few years, more and more people start to know who you are and start writing about you, and that is such a mind fuck. I used to really believe, oh, every journalist is so great and they only have the best interests at heart of, and that is just not true. Unfortunately, there's a lot of places that just aggregate things for clicks and whatever, or they're very partisan in certain ways, and yeah, it's very hard. I used to run around trying to correct people. I tried to correct my own Wikipedia page, and then now I'm like, I gave up on all of that. I don't care. Michael Jamin: See, that's something I still frightens me a little bit is when people will stitch me or they'll make me the face of whatever argument they want. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Keep me out of it. I never said any of this. I didn't sign up for that. This is your thing. I know that frightens me a little bit, Taylor Lorenz: I think, because everybody uses each other as characters online, and so it's like you're the main character. Then you just use all these other people around you as supporting characters and whatever you're trying to do on the internet, Michael Jamin: I think Taylor Lorenz: Really, but Michael Jamin: Well, that's what scared me about what you wrote in your book, but those people who just, they're whatever, they gossip about other tiktoks like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This just feels so wrong to me. Just do your own thing. Taylor Lorenz: I know. Michael Jamin: Don't try to cancel me. What are you doing? Taylor Lorenz: I know my first job in media was at the Daily Mail, and it was such a great training ground for media because tabloid news is just so relentless, and just the way it operates is so different than the type of media that I work in now. And I think it is very similar to TikTok in the way that they just create these universes of characters and they just use people to kind of like, oh, so-and-so was spotted with so-and-so and so that means X, Y, Z, and it's just all these narratives that keep people interested, but I just Michael Jamin: Don't, I don't know how you are healthy, but honestly, this is kind of my biggest fear. Leave me out of your drama. I don't want to be, but you're fine. Screw it. Taylor Lorenz: I don't care. I think I don't mind because at the end of the day, it affects me. I mean, it's affected my life a lot. I've gotten a lot of online hate, and it's really been crazy to deal with. But I will say they've done pretty much everything that could happen to me has happened to me, and it's a little bit freeing, like, okay, it wasn't that bad, so whatever. Michael Jamin: I followed some creators who were doxxed and people my age and they lost their jobs. Taylor Lorenz: So this is what's terrifying, and I always say this, I was telling a friend who left the New York Times recently too. It's like I was never my parents, even when my family was getting harassed and all this horrible stuff was happening, my parents living in the middle of the country, they're like, whatever. They don't even have the internet, so they don't care. But what I was always scared of is like, oh my God, my employer is my employer going to understand. And so I had to have a lot of conversations with the Post when I joined. Everywhere I work, I'm like, okay, so I cover the craziest parts of the internet, and almost every story I write pisses someone off or a fandom off or whatever, or a political faction off. And so are you prepared to get thousands of letters or campaigns and people make nonstop YouTube videos? It's a lot of attention. And Michael Jamin: You're telling this to your employer, the human resources, or Taylor Lorenz: Before I ever accept a job, I'm like, okay, this is what comes with the beat. Michael Jamin: And do you think they understand this? Taylor Lorenz: No, I mean, it's a learning curve. The posts fucked up a little bit. They were responding directly to these really bad YouTubers right after I first started, and I was like, don't respond to the YouTuber. If you respond to the YouTubers, now they're making videos. Oh, look, we got to the Post. We've got to change the article. I'm like, no, just ignore. Just the more you think that Michael Jamin: Stuff. That's right. Taylor Lorenz: But a lot of people have jobs that don't understand, and suddenly they're flooded with calls or flooded with bad reviews, and so I get it. They don't, and so they just think, oh, okay, I'll just fire the person. And that's so horrifying. Michael Jamin: I made a post about this just a couple of days ago where I said, it allows these people on the fringe to be in the conversation, and if I'm tearing down now I'm part of Hollywood because I'm tearing it down. So you're building and I'm tearing down, Taylor Lorenz: And then you're the person. You're the famous person that got so-and-so canceled, and now you're getting all the, I know. It's really toxic. Michael Jamin: I feel in some way, okay, so I have this platform. This is a therapy session. You're going to help me. I have this platform where I have a voice where I can talk about things, but in some ways I don't. I, because I can't respond. In some ways it's, it's not even the right word. The word impotent, almost like I can't respond to them. They can hurl insults at me, but I have to shut up and take it. Taylor Lorenz: It's so frustrating. And Michael, I empathize so much. I tell you, I used to run around. I used to respond to everything. I used to try to get articles corrected. I'd be like, that's not true. Here's all the, and nothing even that controversial thank, I don't do anything crazy, but it's just the internet and it's a losing game. And so you just have to accept that you don't control the narrative about yourself online. And this is something that big Hollywood people have, and I kind of write about this in my book, have always had to deal with, I mean, when you're really famous, you do lose that. You don't control the story of your life anymore really in the public eye. But now we all have to deal with it. Anybody with a following has to deal with that pretty much. And it's hard to go through. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah, it's exactly right. I was going to say something then I lost my train of thought because you got me. No, no. I got so distracted by like, oh, I got lost in my own tunnel of insecurity. Taylor Lorenz: It's hard. It's so hard to deal with, and you want to be like, you got me all wrong. Michael Jamin: But that's why I don't respond even too positive. I spun a little bit, but when someone says something nice, I feel like I don't want to blow 'em off. But I also feel like, am I going into this? I don't know if I respond to everyone or respond to no one, what's the right thing to do? Taylor Lorenz: I mean, look, I make content out of some of my replies. I think it's great to engage people sometimes, especially sometimes when there's a lot of consistent hate around specific things. A lot of things that what people say to me is, I'm too old to be writing about technology, which is funny because I'm a woman in my thirties. Michael Jamin: You're too old. I don't, I'm too old to Taylor Lorenz: TikTok. And by the way, let's not talk about all the men in their sixties that are writing books about Elon Musk and whatever. It's so silly. I'm, myself and Joanna Stern are actually the youngest tech columnist in the entire industry, period. Women. So obviously it's ridiculous, but I responded. I made a TikTok a while ago. I've made a couple of tiktoks being like, okay, look at the misogyny of this comment and what women tech reporters and women in tech have to deal with, and this thinking of women. There's no right. We age to be a woman. And I pulled up some stuff because when I was in my twenties, people would be like, oh, she's silly. She's too young to cover this industry. It's serious. And so there's things like that that you can respond to and just sort of shine a light on. And sometimes I've seen you do a good job, Michael, when people say something mean, and then you give a very thoughtful answer actually to whatever they said, Michael Jamin: Yeah, but that's not my first reaction. My first reaction is actually a lot funnier and a lot meaner. Taylor Lorenz: Just you have to remember, it's a lot of children. Michael Jamin: That's the thing. It's a lot of children or I'm sometimes thinking, well, or it could be someone with mental instability or whatever they've got going on. And so you can't even call 'em out for that because then someone can say, Hey, that person has whatever. And then you're like, then you're the villain. Yeah, then Taylor Lorenz: You're the villain. I know. I just think, oh, they're probably having the worst day ever. Or they're just a hateful person. And another thing I would say for everyone to understand early on the internet, and I think actually in any creative profession is just like, you are never going to be for everyone, and Michael Jamin: It's Taylor Lorenz: Totally fine. You are going to have people that hate your work, and that's totally fine. That doesn't mean anything about you. Just the way, I hate some stuff that's so popular. That's amazing. Beloved, by all. I'm like, oh, I don't like that that much. That's totally fine. And so sometimes people hate something, and I'm like, that's okay. It's not for you. It's Michael Jamin: Not for you. I feel like you're maybe in your thirties, but I feel like you're exceptionally mature because Yeah, you're walking me through this. I've been Taylor Lorenz: Through the ringer a lot. Michael Jamin: Have you been though? I mean, yeah, Taylor Lorenz: I've been through some crazy stuff on the internet, Michael Jamin: But it dies off, you're saying? Taylor Lorenz: I think people have the memory of a goldfish, and it gets hard. Like I said, the hardest stuff was the political, especially when Tucker Carlson was on the era. He kept doing so many segments about me and stuff. Oh, Michael Jamin: Really? I didn't know that. Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. Oh my God, that was like a whole era. He was doing all these segments on me all the time, and his fans were so angry, and every day, all my social profiles were swarmed with his fans. And guess what? Now he lost his TV show, and I feel very vindicated because Wow. Michael Jamin: Wow. Taylor Lorenz: But I just never responded, ever. Michael Jamin: You never, that's so interesting. Yeah, there was this guy, oh my God, I'll say this on a wrap, but there's this on TikTok, there's this, he was a showrunner. He has a show or had a show, I dunno if it's still on popular, but every time I'd make a post, what's the word? He'd be a contrarian, give his contrarian opinion under my, this is twice, two times. And I just rolled my eyes. I didn't respond to him at all. I was like, whatever, dude, get your own. Stop trying to take my clout. He's Taylor Lorenz: Clout chasing you. Yeah, Michael Jamin: He's clout chasing, right? So I just ignore him. And the third time he says, similar thing. And I just said, all right, I'm done with this guy. Just blocked him. I never had any engagement, just blocked this guy. And then I found out he's badmouthed me on his podcast. I'm like, dude, what? I don't even know you. Taylor Lorenz: He's out for you. There's so many people like that. It's so crazy. I mean people, but I think a lot of it is also jealousy. And I mean, I think you do a good job of this too, but I've had people get a little bit snippy to me, or they're like, oh, and is she a professional journalist on TikTok all day? And it's like, yeah, when I had my Snapchat show, people were also really mean about that. And they were like, oh, she does her silly Snapchat. And I'm on cnn, so I'm a real journalist. And she's on, Michael Jamin: Oh, really? The other journal are coming after you. Taylor Lorenz: So mean, and I always was like, Hey, there's room for all of us and just guys, it's not that deep. I'm not competing with you. Also, you should come try Snapchat. It's actually pretty great. There might give you a show. Michael Jamin: Was it men or women that were coming after you? A Taylor Lorenz: Lot of men, but I've had other women. I mean, it's weird. I think people get competitive and they feel there's so much FOMO on the internet and you see someone that's kind of adjacent in your career succeeding. And so I think it's everyone that I looked up to that could have been like that maybe to me, I'm sure I annoyed Katie to topless a million times when I was younger, like, oh my God. But I was more like fangirling. But everyone was so gracious to me, actually. And I always remembered that. And I feel like I try to do that, even if people are a little bit mean, if they're less successful or they're not there, they're just starting out. It's like sometimes they're just trying to put a stake in the ground and you just have to not take it personally. Michael Jamin: Oh wow. Well, okay, okay. I mean, because I do feel that it's different. I mean, it is way different for women on the internet because a guy can come out and start hitting on you. It's not just meant to be creepy. Taylor Lorenz: People are crazy online men and women. But yeah, anytime you have an audience, people are going to come for you and yeah, it's funny when people trash talk you, I've had that too, where I think I muted someone because they kept replying to my post. They were just replying a lot. I was sick of getting the notifications. And that person also went on a podcast, was like, can Taylor Lorenzo ignores her fans? And I was like, you reply to, there's no way I could reply to everything. Michael Jamin: You, yeah. So people are not, yeah, Taylor Lorenz: But that's just reading into it. Michael Jamin: But that's why. All right, well, I think this is a good segue. So, I mean, because a lot of this stuff in your book, I, let's plug it one more time, extremely online, the untold story of fame, influence and power on the internet by Taylor Lorenz. If you are interested in doing this, if you're interested in making your claim in social media, TikTok, Instagram, whatever, I think it's really helpful to understand a little bit of the history and to understand some of the pitfalls. You certainly outline them. I dunno. I think it's a very helpful book for people who I don't know, who are at all interested in playing this game, the pros and the cons. So right now, get her book. Yeah. And very well written, by the way. Good for you. Thank you. Oh my Taylor Lorenz: So much. There's no editing with books. Michael Jamin: What do you mean? There's no editing? Taylor Lorenz: They don't line edit books. Michael Jamin: What do you mean they don't? What do you mean? If someone's looking at it? Taylor Lorenz: No, they copy edit maybe to make sure you don't spell anything wrong, but they don't line edit it. They don't rewrite your sentences or, Michael Jamin: Oh, okay. Taylor Lorenz: Change the structure or anything like that. Michael Jamin: They do that in magazine art in your articles rather. Taylor Lorenz: Yes. My editor will rewrite things for me all the time. Like this could be stronger work on this lead book, I think because it's so much, it would probably take so long to go through those edits. But I love my editor as Simon and Schuster, but it was scary. I was like, can you read this again? I actually want more. Michael Jamin: Oh really? Oh really? See, it was so fascinating. Well, I thought it was a great read. So thank you. Very easy to read. Taylor, thank you so much for having this chat with me. I'm a big fan of all your posts, so it was nice to finally meet you. And maybe we'll go to VidCon together and Yes, and boo people, let 'em have it. Taylor Lorenz: Respond to the haters. Michael Jamin: Yeah, well become haters. That's what we'll do. Oh Taylor Lorenz: Yeah. We'll be the trolls on. Michael Jamin: Maybe there might be something to it. It might be fun. But alright, well thank you so much. And don't go anywhere. Don't grow. Thank you. As I wrap it up. All right everyone, another great talk. Go follower Taylor. By the way, let's get your social media profiles on Instagram and TikTok. What are Taylor Lorenz: They again? I'm just at Taylor Lorenz on every single social platform, so that Michael Jamin: Makes sense. You're the only one. You're the only one. Alright, go follower. It's great stuff. Alright everyone, thank you so much. Another interesting talk. We got more people lined up, so keep following me. Until then, keep creating. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have content creation expert "Coco Mocoe”. Tune in as we talk about her unique eye on how to spot trends for the future, as well as what different social media platforms due for creators. We also discuss her thoughts on brand deals and what she looks for and her hopes and goals for the future. Show Notes Coco Mocoe on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cocomocoe/ Coco Mocoe on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cocomocoe?lang=en Coco Mocoe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UC7MC6lTh3ui3_id2n-vnlPQ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcripts Coco Mocoe: Again, also with TikTok, it's always about reinventing, even though I always talk about marketing, but I feel like every three months I have to find a new way to present the same information that I've been talking about. So truly the best creators are the ones that are able to reinvent themselves, even though they're still providing the same information, but finding new ways to bring it to the feed Michael Jamin: You're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back. I have a very interesting guest for everyone today. So anyone who's listening to my podcast for any amount of time, I've always said, if you want to break into Hollywood, just start doing it. Stop asking permission, start. Just make it count on social media and just start posting whatever it is you want to be good at. Make a dedicated account to proving how good you are at this one thing, whether it's writing, performing music, whatever it is, and let's just see where it goes from there. Because if you can't do that, well then Hollywood's not going to pay you to do it. You got to do it for yourself. And so my next guest is an expert in this field because not only does she make a living out of predicting trends about people who've done this before, but she's doing it herself in building her own presence online. And content absolutely is essential. I turn to it when I have questions. So please welcome Coco Moko. Thank you so much. Coco Moko, which I love your name by the way. Coco Mocoe: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's so funny when I made my username, my real name's Colleen, but I go by Coco Moko, and when I made the name, I didn't know my account would blow up, and so my managers were like, let's keep it though. It has a good ring to it. It does. Michael Jamin: But tell me, okay, so I know you've made a living at it doing this, but before you started doing it for yourself, who were you working for? Coco Mocoe: Yes. It's such a great story too. It was kind of divine timing, I guess. So I studied marketing in college, and then after college, my family's from the LA area, so I was super lucky to just live in LA. And I started a job that I got off Craigslist, and it ended up being this website called Famous Birthdays. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's very Gen Z Young. It's kind of like Wikipedia, but at the time, famous Birthdays was the only website really documenting YouTubers and at the time, musically kids. And so we had a really big audience of 12 year olds. And so I got hired there and my job was to run the musically, which had then turned to TikTok. So I was on the app early, and then the founder of Famous Birthdays, his name's Evan, he's like, if you ever see someone on your free page that you think is going to be famous, just invite them in and we'll interview them. And shortly after that was when I saw Charlie Delio when she was really early. We invited her in and we were her first ever interview, and that went super viral. And then there was a few others from that kind of era of kids and because of the videos that I was working on at Famous birthdays that were getting, I think one of the videos with Charlie Delios at 40 million Views on YouTube. And because we got an early, so, but then from there, I then got hired at buzzfeed, and I was at Buzzfeed for three and a half years where I was working on the backend with strategy, coming up with videos, and it was really just my job to go into meetings with different brands and creators and stuff and just tell them what I think the upcoming trends will be, how I think platforms are shifting, mainly TikTok and how I think that they can best create ideas that will go viral or work with people that aren't famous enough yet that they're going to decline but are eager to come in. And so that was really where I got the start with predicting and stuff, and where I learned that I had a good eye for pattern recognition, and then I just started making my own tos. That kind of blew up. And then I quit my full-time job in June of this year and have been just doing full-time stuff since. Michael Jamin: And so now you have close to a million followers, which is huge. Thank you. Coco Mocoe: Yeah. Michael Jamin: Then so, okay, so when you work for yourself, what does that mean? Coco Mocoe: Yeah, so I never really thought that I would go the consultant route. It was something that kind of just happened as a result of the videos that I was making. I never posted my trend prediction videos or algorithm decoding kind of videos with the intention of getting hired, but I was getting so many inquiries from really big brands that wanted to just pick my brain for an hour or so when I was at buzzfeed. And then I just felt, I mean, it was the different legal non-compete clauses and stuff. And so I just eventually realized that financially it made more sense to just take an hour meeting with a brand and make what I would've made in a month. And I'm so lucky you never know how long it's going to last. I'm very, very lucky. So that's kind of what the full-time thing is. Consulting sometimes brand deals. I don't always like to do a ton of brand deals. I don't want my account to just feel like one big commercial. And then I've been lucky enough to have a lot of music people actually reach out to me and I consult on the music side as well, so super lucky. But Michael Jamin: Yeah. Okay. So big brands want your opinions, but are you saying also that the creators as well want your opinions? Coco Mocoe: Yeah, a lot of creators, and I actually, that's why I made the podcast that I have ahead of the curve, which hopefully you'll be able to come on one day when your book comes out. Yeah, I love that. And I do my podcast because I can't meet with everyone, and so I started doing that for a way to reach more of the creators. But yeah, I do have a lot of creators reach out. I feel like bandwidth wise, it's hard. So I try to find ways to reach out to people in my community that isn't always just a money exchange or a meeting and stuff. So I'm still figuring it out, but I've been very lucky since I went full-time with this. Michael Jamin: You must know this, or I'm hoping. So when a musician, an actor or whatever comedian, when they're reaching out to you or they're following you, what is it do you think they want, do you think they just want to blow up on social media or do they want to move to what I do traditional Hollywood? Coco Mocoe: Yeah. No, it's such a good question, and I think a lot of it when I do get more of the bigger celebrities that have followed me every now and then, I'm always like, I don't know. At first I'd be like, I don't know why. I don't know what value I'm even providing them. I remember one time Paris Hilton followed me and I was like, she is the biggest influencer in the world. And I'm like, what could I potentially provide to someone like that through my videos? But I think a lot of it too is just when I've talked to people who have followed me, whether it's an actor or a musician or just a person who's watching tos and has never made one before. A lot of the times they say that they like that my videos are able to take something happening on the algorithm or on marketing and media, but I kind of give a bigger lens to it as well. I'm able to connect the dots to everyone, whether you're watching it, whether you are the one making the content and really simplifying it and not just making, I think a lot of when I would watch marketing videos and stuff, it would be a lot of broy ad talk, which that's important talk too, but I never really related to the AB and that kind of stuff. I liked being like, this is why this person watched it. So anyways, I think that if it is an actor or musician following me, I think some of it is just curiosity. I don't think they always have the intention of using my videos as strategy, but when they do, I think it's because as working in entertainment, it really is an attention economy, and the way that people give their attention is constantly shifting. You could make the best piece of work and you just never know if the attention's going to be there or not. I think them watching my helps maybe dissect why certain things go viral, but again, you never know. You never really know. It's just always up in the air. But I try to bring sense to it. Michael Jamin: It changes. Everything changes so fast. Whatever the algorithm, whatever the new trend, whatever's going on, changes fast. And I feel like you always seem to be on top of it. How are you on top? Are you just watching videos all day and making lists and stuff? What are you doing? Coco Mocoe: Yes. It's so funny. I get that question all the time. I do spend a good amount of time on TikTok. I try not to because I think sometimes I believe in there's this saying, and it's the universe whispers, and it's essentially this idea that once you finally turn off your phone and the TV and the for you page scrolling and you just sit in silence for a little bit, that's when the ideas will come to you. So I do try to take moments away from my phone, but I would say for me, I do spend a lot of time on my phone and watching the algorithm, but I try to be strategic about it, and I do have notes on my phone. I'm constantly writing down ideas, and this sounds really woo woo, but sometimes my most viral ideas actually come to me in if I'm sleeping or something. I think it's this weird moment where it's all the information I've received throughout the day finally comes into me and I absorb it in a way, and then I wake up and I'll film a video. That's why I always film right first thing in the morning. And those are sometimes my most viral videos. Yeah. Michael Jamin: Well, a couple questions for you. So now when I first got on TikTok, okay, I got a lot of followers. I'm like, well, why do I have all these? What's the point of followers? When your reach is so low, why do they give you that metric? If you have half a million followers and on any given day, 10, 20,000 will see your content, Coco Mocoe: That happens to me and I have an algorithm answer for that. And then I also have something that helps me when I'm making videos that happens to even the biggest creators. But one way that I still feel inspired to make content and don't get down on myself when that happens is I think the creator, Chris Olson said it. He's a pretty big talker. And one time he said, yeah, 300 views feels really low for the first hour of a video being up. But imagine if you were in a lecture hall and 300 people walked in, that would be a really exciting feeling. You'd be nervous to speak to that many people. And even if I get three or five comments the first few hours, I think, well, I just gave a lecture, and that essentially is three people came up to me after and wanted to ask me more questions about it. So that's one way I try to still think that I'm adding value. And I feel like the biggest thing I hear from whether it's creators, celebrities, or brands, is, and it happens to everyone. So it's a universal experience, especially on TikTok. They always say, I feel like the algorithm hates me now. I feel like I'm shadow banned. And I agree. I think that things like that happen on the algorithm. What I think happens sometimes, I wonder if TikTok will inflate numbers every now and then where I'm like, I don't know if I actually got that many views, or it's almost like a lottery. I think that they gamified creating content in a way that almost feels like gambling, where you're rewarded for doing it more and more. But then it also can be exhausting and disorienting. And I think one thing that I've noticed sometimes happens is that one, people consume videos on their for you page and not always their following. I don't really know a lot of people that use the following tab to watch videos. So TikTok is so weird. I could follow a creator and never see one of their videos again. Yeah, it's just, it rewards people for finding new creators every day. But one more logistical piece of advice that I've heard and that I theorize, I don't know. I say it's like a Tin hat theory about the algorithm, but I think that TikTok, there's a human element to it, and they specifically push out certain trends or certain things happening in the news, and then when they're ready to shift to a new trend, whether it's because they have brands that want to promote something on their app or whatever it is, they will not necessarily shadow ban certain creators, but they shadow ban certain hashtags. That's just a theory I have. What often happens when I talk to people when they're experiencing it is I'll tell them to pull back on all of their hashtags, don't use any hashtags, and sometimes that will subvert any, it takes a while. But yeah, so basically what I'm saying is when it does feel like the algorithm hates you, it's usually not just you, it's just that the topic that you're talking about, they feel like it no longer is relevant for whatever reason, and they're shifting to something new. And again, also at TikTok, it's always about reinventing, even though I always talk about marketing, but I feel like every three months I have to find a new way to present the same information that I've been talking about. So truly, the best creators are the ones that are able to reinvent themselves, even though they're still providing the same information, but finding new ways to bring it to the feed. If TikTok is enjoying videos that are longer than a minute, making videos that are longer than a minute, if TikTok is preferring green screen videos going into green screen. So it really is kind of this tango that you play, but Michael Jamin: Ultimately it seems like, I'm sorry, like a vanity metric that they give you, which doesn't do any, okay, so why are you telling me this number? Coco Mocoe: Exactly. I 100% agree, and it's why I think it's great. You have your podcast, and I've heard you on other podcasts when I was looking up things about the strike, I remember listening to you as a guest on podcasts, and that's why I always encourage people, do not let TikTok be your number one. That can be your Trojan horse. It can get you exposure, and it can get you into the room that you want to be in, but it is not sustainable. TikTok is so finicky one day it'll love you. The next three months, it'll hate you. So really having things outside of TikTok that your audience, I always say have a home base outside of TikTok, so a podcast or whatever it is. So yeah, I totally rambled. I'm sorry, but I get that question a lot. Yeah, it's a good question. Michael Jamin: The whole thing. I also have a feeling after being on the app for so long that the number of serious content creators who post every day, for some reason, I feel like it's a much smaller, they won't tell you how many is, but it feels like it's a much smaller number than you might think it is. Do you feel that way? Coco Mocoe: Yeah. Are you saying you feel like there's less people posting than you would think or, Michael Jamin: Yeah, but seriously, every day who were like, okay, I'm committing to do it. Some people are just, alright, here's a silly video of me eating ice cream, and then they won't post again for another 10 months or whatever. But for the people who really trying to build a platform, I feel like that number is actually maybe lower than you'd think. Coco Mocoe: Yeah. So yeah, I think what it is is a lot of people, it's very, I think TikTok is really great in that it's one of the first ever apps I've seen where so many people have gone viral and reached audiences that we would've never thought of. I have found so many new creators on TikTok, whereas on YouTube, I'd find a new creators I was excited about maybe once every three months. But I think what it is is like, yeah, sustaining that is so hard. I think that what happens is people often, most origin stories on TikTok are, some people will go into it strategically, but the video that really blows up and puts them on the map, they never would've guessed it would've been that video or why it was that video. They never really know. And so I think that some people just don't have, they get excited, but they can't necessarily sustain it. And that's why I always think that the creators that have a slow burn are the ones who end up being the most successful in the long run. I'm sure that's even something that kind of in some ways applies to the entertainment industry, but I always think of the biggest creator in the world right now is Mr. Beast. And it took him five years to hit his first 100,000 followers, but I think that that length of time is why when he did finally get lucky, he had the daily habits and the muscle and the mental stamina to withstand that attention. Whereas some creators will have this stroke of luck, and then the moment the algorithm is no longer rewarding them in a month or two, they kind of freak out and just abandon it. Or they'll only post once every few weeks because they're ashamed that they aren't getting the numbers that they were. But it's just so normal. It's just the biggest creators. Michael Jamin: But to what end is all this, why is everyone doing this? Is it, I mean, I can see why you do it. You have a business now, but why is everyone else doing this? Coco Mocoe: I think it's two things. I think one, TikTok made it really easy to post. The barrier to entry is very low. And on YouTube, if you really wanted to go viral on YouTube five years ago, it would've taken understanding, editing to some degree, understanding how to upload certain files to your computer. I mean, those things are so hard. It would've taken the knowledge of figuring out how to make thumbnails. And the barrier to entry was just so high for platforms like YouTube, TikTok made it really easy that anyone could go viral. And I think the why, what's to what end? I think the people that have a kind of north star outside of TikTok are the ones that are successful, the ones that have something they're striving. For me, I feel like my best videos don't come from me saying, I want to go viral today. They come from me saying something like, oh, I have this hour long interview that I did, and I want to feed people to that. Let me just make a video, giving them the best moment. And so I think that the why version, what's the bigger thing? We're striving for every creator. It's different, but if you are only striving for TikTok fame, it's so fleeting. And that's never, again, I say TikTok, it's like the Trojan horse. It's just going to get you in the room, but it's not going to do the talking for you. It's not going to make the business deals. It just gets you in a room that you might not have been in otherwise. Michael Jamin: And so what are the rooms, do you think it's people are trying to become actors, so they're trying to blow up, whatever, I'm goofy here now, put in your TV show. Is that what it is? Coco Mocoe: Yeah, I mean, it could be. I guess everyone's different. I know. I think there's this one guy, I don't know if you saw it, I think a year or two ago, and he made videos. He made comedic videos, and he made one video about wanting to be on SNL, and the internet was really hard on him, and I didn't feel like I see that it was fair. Yeah. I was like, okay, this is someone shooting their shot. Good for him. He didn't put anyone down in the process. He didn't step on anyone. It was a video that took obviously planning and thought. And I think also maybe he reposted it recently and that's why it's at top of mind and it's going viral again, but now there's a positive sentiment around it. So I do think that, and to answer your question, I do think that specifically for actors, there's a Pandora's box with TikTok because it does get you in a room. And I could be wrong. I feel like you probably know more about this than me, but I feel like with actors, they have to be very strategically pulled back. They don't want to reveal too much about themselves personally because it could hurt them in terms of being typecast or getting into character, I think could be harmed. If people are like, oh, I remember them making a TikTok where they failed at making iced coffee one day and it spilled all over their dog. No one will ever take them seriously. So I think actors, it's a little tricky. It's like a Pandora's box. They go viral, but it's really hard for that to be taken seriously, I think, by audiences sometimes, but I do think some will be able to do it. Michael Jamin: Is that your theory, or are you hearing this from actors from creators who tried to break it and are getting that feedback? Coco Mocoe: I mean, no, I guess for me, it really is more of a theory and just me watching one of the really big comedic talkers who was on TikTok for years, and she doesn't do it as much anymore, but her name's Brittany Broski. I don't know if you've heard of her. No. She was pretty big. She had a few memes that went viral, and she has millions of followers, but I think she would make a really great SNL cast member. I think that she's really funny and smart, and I could see that in the cards for her one day. But right now she's just doing a podcast as herself and not just doing, I mean, that's huge. But I think that she's one of the bigger creators that I think of in terms of being an actor on TikTok. And I don't know that we've seen someone be able to translate that to a big role yet. I think we will. We just haven't seen it yet, because there is this weird dynamic between the audience and the actor that other influencers don't really have to worry about. Michael Jamin: Well, I wish I knew the name. There's someone named Nurse Blake. You heard of him? No. Okay. Because a comedian, but a nurse, he sells out venues doing I guess comedy, but he's also a nurse. I'm like, I don't understand if you're selling out these giant venue news, what's with this other gig you got? So I just don't get it. I don't get any of it. Coco Mocoe: Well, and what's funny, the thing about what you just explained is really fascinating to me, and it's something I talked about last year where I coined it the rise of the anti influencer, but essentially him having something like another job, whether that's still happening or not, I think audiences are drawn to that because they feel like there's less pressure on them if the influencer doesn't succeed. It's like, well, they have another job, and so they actually are more likely to be open to the person. So oddly, I think having that kind of double life in a way lends to an audience feeling less pressure. And that did make me remember that in terms of the comedic route and acting and stuff, there was one standup comedian, his name's Matt Rife. Michael Jamin: Yes. And I just learned about him. So go on. I had never heard of him until go on. Coco Mocoe: And I think he's one of those people where it's like Mr. Beast, where he had been trying to do the standup comedy route for five or seven years, and he started just posting clips from his shows on TikTok, and he went on a tour last year, and he filmed a Netflix special that hasn't aired yet, but Forbes, he was on the Forbes top creator list, and they estimated that he had made 25 million last year. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I saw that article. I'm floored. Coco Mocoe: Yes. I don't know how they calculate. I don't know. But if it's even just 2.5 million, that's a crazy number for someone who was struggling as a standup comedian, began posting clips of it to TikTok and is now selling out venues, and it's crazy. It's Michael Jamin: Mind blowing. And yeah, it's just a platform. And I give him a lot of credit. I mean, made himself, he willed it to be, but I mean, I guess, I don't know. I know you guys were talking, you and your podcasting party we're talking about, and what's the name of your pocket, by the way, so everyone can Coco Mocoe: Talk? Oh, yeah. So I have my main one, it's ahead of the curve with Coco Mocoe. That one's my solo one where I just talk to experts like yourself and stuff. And then I have a show with my friend, his name's Nikki Rearden, called Share Your Screen, where each week we dive into whatever's happening in the news or in marketing and talk about why we think certain things are going viral. So a lot of people that see the clips from my profile, it's usually the clips of me and Nikki. So I'm guessing that's what Michael Jamin: It might've been. But you guys were talking about the newest trend, which is basically, I guess people like me sharing expertise in some kind of attempt to what, Coco Mocoe: Yeah, I mean, I think experts are what make TikTok my favorite app because it takes people who maybe didn't have time or the career background to study, again, film theory and cameras and microphones and how to sync up audio and all these things, but they're able to make really good videos because of the TikTok editing software within the app. And yeah, I mean, I used this saying on TikTok where it's called the niche, here you go, the Quicker You Grow. It's a saying that I came up with when I was at buzzfeed, and I would say in every meeting. And what I meant by that is people have this misconception that in order to go viral, you have to hit the masses. You have to make a cool football moment and also tap dance and also paraglide and tell a funny joke all in 30 seconds in the same video. And I am like, that's not really how it works. The best videos are very niche, and that's kind of why experts grow on the app. You are known as the Hollywood writer, and I think I was telling one of my friends that I was going on your pod, and when I said that they knew exactly who you were. And it's just that thing where it's like you would rather be known for, or another way I say it is you want to be great at one thing on social media, then be average at everything. But if Michael Jamin: You're 20 years old, what are you great at? Coco Mocoe: Yeah, and I think that's a great question. That's why, and I don't think 20 year olds are people that are still, even people in their midlife or older don't always have to start their account and just stick to one thing. I think part of social media is exploring different parts of your identity and seeing what people to respond to. So I think that's why we do see a lot of the younger kids online are more lifestyle influencers. Their day is, I mean, I'm 27 now. When I was between the ages of 19 and 23, I felt like my life something different changed every single day. And it was interesting. But if I did lifestyle content, now my life is very normal and stable that I always say, I'm like, I'm not interesting. The things I talk about are interesting. So that's why I think there's a lot of lifestyle creators that are younger. Their life is constantly changing as it does when you're in your early twenties. But TikTok is really where I feel like we've seen older people in midlife. And on the other apps on Instagram, I felt like you had to be an 18 year old model traveling the world to be interesting to the algorithm. And it's not like that on TikTok. And I would say YouTube's similar to TikTok in that way too. But Michael Jamin: Yeah, I don't know. I can't grow on YouTube. I could do well, this platform on TikTok, but Oh, I had a question. No, I lost it. Can you believe I lost it? No, you're good. Yeah. Well, now we'll have to take a pause as I try to remember what I was going to say, but Oh, yeah, no, I know what I was going to say. So you are in an interesting position in that you share your expertise on this, on becoming, I don't know, a creator or an influencer and all that, but you also do that. So talk a little bit about that. When you post, okay, you know what you're going to say to help, this is the trend you're spotting, or this is who's blowing up. You want to talk, but you also have to make a video where you are performing where you are. You're not just sharing your knowledge, you are a creator as well. Coco Mocoe: I know it's kind of meta. It's meta. Now we've entered the age of social media where creators are making platforms, talking about being a creator. I mean, yeah, I guess for me, I am really lucky that my audience likes when I talk about those things, and I don't have to necessarily divulge a bunch of information about my personal life and stuff. I think some creators do get into a predicament where their whole brand is built on their relationship, and then maybe their relationship ends, unfortunately, and they have to rebrand. And so I'm very lucky that my audience just likes when I talk about what's happening. And it's funny because when I started talking about these things, I didn't actually think that people really cared. Crazy story is when I first started my TikTok and some of my followers found me through, this is, it sounds so woo, but I actually, I did tarot. Me and my friends do tarot for fun, and I would make a few tarot videos, and they went viral. And then I realized that there's 15 year olds making way better tarot videos than I ever could. I'm like, the world's going to be okay if these 15 year olds, they're doing their messages and it's great, and if that's what you believe in and you like that content, they've got it covered. And so I told my audience, I was like, okay, you guys. And I could tell the algorithm was shifting away from that, and it just wasn't exciting anymore. And I was a professional and it was just a hobby that I did, and I told my audience, I was like, I'm going to take a break from my TikTok and I think I'm going to come back to the internet. I think you guys are going to find me, but it's going to look different, and I don't know what that's going to be yet. And at the time, again, I was working at buzzfeed. I talked about these things in my nine to five, and I always thought it was, I loved it, but I thought it would be boring to other people, like the whole marketing, the trends, the algorithm. I thought that that was having an accountant talk about math. Then I took a break from my account for a little bit. I would make every videos every now then, but then one day before a meeting, I had five minutes and I made a video that was a trend prediction, and it got I think 4 million views in two days. And within a week, I was getting booked to go speak at Adweek in New York and all of these crazy doors opened. And so it was funny that for me, I always was doing marketing, and I just never thought until I made that video randomly that anyone actually cared about that. But I guess a lot of people did. And I'm very lucky that a lot of people did. And I have been riding the wave ever since. And I feel like as long as there's new trends and new people getting viral and new things happening online, I'll always have something new to talk about, and I'll never get bored. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I have rules that I played by how many days, how many times a day will you post and how many days a week? Because it can get out of hand. It can get so much where you are working for the app now. Coco Mocoe: Yes, there are days where I'll post a lot and there's days where I just won't do anything. I mean, it really depends on my schedule. Each day when I was first starting and just doing green screen videos with my trend predictions and algorithm things, I would probably film two or three a day. But now also that TikTok rewards longer content. I don't know if you do that minute or longer type videos. Oh, Michael Jamin: I do. It's always at least three minutes. Yeah. Coco Mocoe: Yes. And are you in the creativity beta program? Michael Jamin: No. No. I want to talk about that. Coco Mocoe: Okay. Michael Jamin: Well, good. Hang on to that. Coco Mocoe: Okay, good, good, good. Now, TikTok has the beta program, which I'm in, and when I know that's not going to last forever, but when I got my first check from that, I was like, oh, that's a good chunk of money. Now, when I do film videos, it really is my job. I see. Every time I film a video that's a minute or longer, I'm like, okay, that is a certain amount of money that I could make. But I will say probably on average I'll post three to five videos depending on my mood, and then I'll usually take a day or two off and I'll film in studio or something. So it really just depends. But I think that now that I've grown a little bit, I do think I do more quality over quantity, whereas the first few months where I really blew up doing this kind of thing, I was posting a lot. I was riding the wave. And now that I think I have credibility and a few really good videos under my belt, I can do a little bit less and people will pay attention and seek out my content. Now, are you Michael Jamin: Worried though, that being the creator studio will limit? This is for those who don't know, this is when TikTok will pay you. You post a video and they pay you depending on how views you have. Are you worried that it'll limit your views, your reach? Coco Mocoe: So that's a great question because, and again, tin Hat theory, I don't know, but for those of you guys who were on the app a couple of years ago, they had this thing called the Creator Fund. And I ran experiments on accounts at my, and through creators I worked with at my old job where we would enroll into the creator fund. And let's say they were getting on average 5 million views a month, and we would enroll into the creator fund and their views would drop to a hundred thousand a month, and they couldn't get a video with over 2000 views. And I personally think it was TikTok was capping the money because they were pulling the money out of thin air. They didn't have ads on the platform didn't, it's not like YouTube where it's ad sent, so it's not out of YouTube's pocket. It's like Google paid Red Bull paid to put an ad on a Mr. Beast video for 30 seconds, and YouTube's not paying that money. But TikTok, I think, capped people's views, in my opinion. I don't know, because they were realizing they had to pull this money out of thin air. The beta program that is happening now, I don't know. I know some creators have had problems. I feel like my videos actually perform better now that I'm in it. I don't know the math behind it. I don't know if it's because TikTok is running more ads on the platform that they can afford it. I will say that I think that TikTok is gearing up to lean into longer, longer content. I know on their website, they've been testing podcast beta features like I'm nosy, and I go on the TikTok website and I'll just look at little buttons and stuff, what I had to do for my old job, and I can see them rolling out this podcast button, and then they took it down, and then they'll put it back up. And I think they're getting ready to roll that out. So I don't know, but I do think that at least my own experience, the beta program has been great for me financially. I don't think it's going to last. Michael Jamin: Why do you say that? Why won't it last forever? Coco Mocoe: I don't know. I think that I never put any of my eggs in any financial basket as a full-time creator. Now, you never know. And also, one day I could wake up and people could just find my videos not interesting anymore. That's always something that's in the back of my mind, and I have to be okay with that. So, Michael Jamin: Because I wasn't sure if they call it a beta account because it is beta, they're going to change it. Coco Mocoe: Oh, yeah. Because called the creativity beta program, and I think it's maybe only certain creators can be a part of it or something. You have to have 10,000 followers. So yeah, I don't know. At least for me, the last, I think I enrolled in June, and I think we're not allowed to share the exact amounts in the terms of service. But I'll just say it was more than my monthly salary at my full-time job. And I was like, okay, cool. Michael Jamin: But you really have to have videos that go viral Coco Mocoe: Pretty good. Michael Jamin: Yeah. I mean, I have a big following. You never know. Yeah, it might be 20,000 due on a video, and that might be that way for two weeks. So I don't think, it doesn't sound like a get rich quick scheme for me. I don't know. Coco Mocoe: Yeah, no, I always say it's just you never want to put all your eggs in one basket with social media. A platform could be gone tomorrow. You never know, really. I always say you just always want to have that kind of North star. You just want to use social media again as that Trojan horse, but always have other things in the back of your mind, which I was honestly curious about you. I know there's the strike and stuff, but do you feel like having your TikTok, do you think it's helped open doors for you in your career year? Michael Jamin: Well, I mean, originally I started it, and I want to get your advice on this. I started it because I wrote a book and my agent said, platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? He says, you need to have a social media following to sell it. And in the field in personal essays, which is because if you like David Sera, it's like that. So my goal, and which I've already done, is I written the book, it'll go on sale probably in a couple months, and then I've been performing with it. I've been touring with a little bit with it to sell tickets, my poster of me. So I didn't want to, so that was the whole goal was just to write a book and then tour with it and a show that I do. And so the reason I didn't want to get into the beta program, I was like, well, let's not lose sight of what the goal is. I don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize that. It's really about selling a book and then touring with it. But what advice do you have for me regarding that? Coco Mocoe: Yeah, no, I mean, one, I would say for books specifically, two, I feel like oddly, I mean, I'm not even really on Meadow or Facebook like that, but there's certain communities. I had someone, a relative that wrote a book once, and it was in their specific profession, and I was like, you should join Facebook pages about that profession. But of course, there's certain things where you can't promote. But no, I guess in terms of promoting your book specifically, one, I think that if you are going on tour, of course the posting clips from being on stage for whatever reason, people just love those. I feel like that's low hanging fruit advice, though. I would say just, I can send you a guy's profile after this if I follow him out to find it. But he is an author and he will just read quotes from his book, and some of the clips go viral. He literally just will read a part of it. And maybe even, I don't know if you live stream a lot like TikTok live sometimes just the type of audience that watches a live, it's a lot of work. So I don't think it's for everyone, and it's not for all the time, but the type of person who seeks out a TikTok live, they're very loyal. They sometimes have not in a bad way, they just have a lot of time on their hands. They're more likely to be early adopters of whatever the creator's doing. So I know that's kind of all surface level advice, but I guess, so you have a new book coming out? Is that what it is? Or, Michael Jamin: Well, my first book, yeah, because a TV writer, first book. This is my first book. Coco Mocoe: Okay. You've been on TikTok for, I think I found you a Michael Jamin: Year. It's probably been two years now. Coco Mocoe: Okay. Yeah. I feel like I found you a year ago, so it's, I'm guessing you've just been building it up. I mean, yeah, I wish I had better advice. I think I'd have to know more too. That's why I'm excited. I'd love to read your book and then have you on my pod. I just did that with, yeah, I love reading. I've had two guests on now where I've read their book, and I feel like it really helps me with questions. And again, my thing is you just never know what's going to go viral. You never know what's going to work. I feel like it's just throwing things at the wall. Michael Jamin: I was curious if you've known anybody who's done what I'm doing, and I don't know if there is anyone, which is fine. I know. I'm glad to be the first one. Coco Mocoe: Yeah, I mean, I can't think of anyone. I do know that when I was talking to Taylor Lauren, she's a journalist that just put out a book, and she was saying that pre-sales weirdly count for so much money. So definitely, of course, ramping up. And also, I will say, oddly, I feel like because a writer, you would have a cool idea around this eventually if you slept on it. But whether it's marketing for music or shows, one of the best strategies that I've seen across the board is people love feeling like they're in on a secret or something they're not supposed to know yet. Saying something like, there's this book that hasn't come out yet, but I got my hands on it and tell me what you guys think of this quote. Or people love the idea of, this hasn't come out yet, but I'm giving you a little tidbit, or making it kind of mysterious. And then being like, there is a link to, if you are curious about the pre-sale, things like that, people love feeling like, oh, I wasn't supposed to know this, or I wasn't, like, this isn't out to the public yet. So anytime something can feel mysterious or you're doing them a favor by revealing something that isn't out there yet, oddly, that always works across the board. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Well, I discovered a couple of days ago, because the book hasn't even dropped yet, that I was on Amazon. I typed Michael Jamin into Amazon, and Michael Jamin book came up as a search term. So people are looking for it, and I haven't even announced it yet. So that's cool. Coco Mocoe: Wow. Yeah. And I know that makes me think of SEO, how you could lean into that SEO kind of thing. And sorry, do you have the name for rubric or are you allowed to Michael Jamin: Reveal it? Yeah, it's a paper orchestra and I don't have, well, here's this that has too much of a glare on it, but this is not the cover of the book. This is the cover of Coco Mocoe: My show. Michael Jamin: This is the cover of my show, and it's just like it's a typewriter, whatever it's me coming out of. But yeah, so it's very, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm doing this all, let's just try it. I don't really know what I'm doing really Coco Mocoe: Well. And if it makes you feel better, even the biggest people in the world that have entire teams around them, they don't really know what they're doing either. Again, the internet changes constantly. No one really knows. And I think that the people that really do succeed, one, it's a stroke of luck, and two, it's just showing up until the algorithm decides to what you're doing, knowing what your message is, but still always being able to tweak it or be flexible if you feel like a certain delivery isn't working, if talking straight to camera hasn't been hitting, being willing to do a green screen or walking while holding your phone because Gen Z for some reason, loves when people are moving while talking and just, Michael Jamin: Yeah, there are some people, there's two creators. I follow celebrity book club, and these two, you know them. Okay, Coco Mocoe: Love them. Michael Jamin: So they just read memoirs that people put out and they talk about it, and that's it. And they're able to travel and sell tickets in various cities, which are good for you. I Coco Mocoe: Mean, I know. Yeah. And if you think about it with them, part of why it's so cool is they're providing so much value to the audience because not everyone is a reader. Or sometimes people will buy memoirs, but they won't read them for whatever reason, they'll save it, and they're kind of doing this SparkNotes thing. But I just love their pod. I saw they just had Julia Fox on, and I made a video on my profile where I'm like, Julia Fox, if you're ever in la, I'd love to have you. But yeah, and I've listened to a few episodes. I think they for years, did a couple different podcasts. And finally, this is just the one that stuck. So it really is just consistency. You just never know what format's going to be the one to really put you on the map. Michael Jamin: It's odd because I will start traveling with it, but I'm big in maybe four or five cities according to my analytics. Wow. But I'm not sure if I can sell tickets in any other city other than the ones that I'm big in. So I don't know. Coco Mocoe: And when you do start going to shows, just for whatever reason, TikTok just loves when people post clips from their shows. I think part of Matt Rife's whole thing and why he made, according to Forbes 25 million through ticket sales. But he would post a lot. And I mean, I think the gimmick is sometimes overdone a little bit, but his audience interactions, again, not for everyone, but I think that people started buying tickets to his shows in the hopes of being a part of his next viral TikTok. Yes. It kind of broke the fourth wall, and it incentivized people to go to his shows because they wanted to be the one that was a part of his next viral video because he had an interaction with them in the audience. So I think he kind of cracked a code, or sorry. Yeah, he cracked this viral code where there was now an incentive for people to actually physically show up and watch him. That's Michael Jamin: So interesting. But was he doing crowd work? Was he talking to the audience or was it something else? Was it comedy that he was doing? Coco Mocoe: No, I think it was. I think he does also just post his comedy clips, but for whatever reason, his crowd work goes so viral. And I mean, again, I do think sometimes it does get old. You can tell so many. And I mean, I'm not hating shtick. I think it's cool, but maybe because what I do for a living and I just study these things, I feel like I can tell when comedians come up on my feed now and they're kind of trying to recreate that. It's like a trend. They're trying to be trendy and recreate that success. And some it works, some it doesn't. But yeah, he kind of incentivized people to come to the show, then they'd be a part of his videos. Michael Jamin: Interesting. And that's hitting on something else, which is it doesn't seem like actors, people, actors who are already famous, they don't seem to do well, or am I wrong about that Coco Mocoe: On TikTok? No, I think you're right. I actually talked with Molly about this today and why specifically a-list? Celebrities seem to kind of struggle, I think, on TikTok. And one, I also think, even though my whole thing is I give advice on how to grow on apps like TikTok, I'm like, not everyone needs to be on TikTok. It's okay. It's not for everyone. I think some bigger celebrities benefit from being mysterious and not really being on social media, but the ones that do try, I think sometimes there is this feeling of detachment where when you're so big and you have a big team around you, by the time you come up with an idea, you get it approved, you go through whatever they, the label, the this, the that. And then you post the video. The trend is already two weeks old. So the people that are really quick on their feet that are a little bit more scrappy are the ones who I think thrive on apps like TikTok, because TikTok just moves so quick. I don't think, but Michael Jamin: That's the thing, I, I've never once done a trend and I don't think I ever will. Coco Mocoe: And what's so funny, I'm the same exact way. And it's funny that I talk about trends you'll never see. I did one it at the YouTube studio, the two girl, but you'll never see me doing trending audios. And it's so funny that I talk about trends, but my belief is that really the people that thrive don't pay attention to trends at all. I always say the opposite of trendy is timeless. And if you tie yourself to a trend and that becomes your identity, when that audio or that trend isn't big in two or three weeks from now, you're done. But I love creator. I think that's why experts really thrive on TikTok because they're providing so much value that they don't really have to rely on gimmicks and trends to be relevant. Or even if they're not relevant, they're providing value that people are going to seek out and eventually find them. Yeah. So yeah, I am the same way. I don't really believe in, my biggest pet peeve is when I would go into consulting meetings with huge brands and they're like, what trending audio should we lip sync to? I'm like, you shouldn't think like that. Also, FTC guidelines, technically you can't because of legal problems. But I just think that, I always say going viral is that's a low goal. I think it aiming low as a goal. You should think of being bigger than virality. You should think of providing so much value that it doesn't matter whether you're focused on trends or not. You live longer than that online. Michael Jamin: I'm skipping around here, but years ago, not even that many years ago, I was on a TV show, I dunno, less than 10, maybe eight years ago. And we needed to cast a role. We went for an actor, and the studio wanted us to go out to someone who had a big social media following. That's who they wanted to cast. So we found this guy, this kid with a big following. We were going to pay him a lot of money per episode, and he kept on turning it down because he was making more money posting Instagram than he was whenever that was. It was like 20,000 in an episode or something. It wasn't worth his time. Coco Mocoe: Yeah. I mean, yes. That's interesting. That does make me think. I talked recently to this really big agent. He manages the Emilios, his name is Greg Goodfried, and something he said to me was the reason that the Emilio signed to him when they were looking for every agent in the game was cutthroat going for the Emilios. I remember this, I was filming videos with them at the time when they were coming into the office, and they were behind the scenes, I think, figuring out who they were going to sign with. And what Greg said to them was, it's not about what you do, it's about what you don't do, and you're going to get so many offers. But in terms of the show that you were saying, one, I'm also guessing that if he felt like he didn't have the acting chops, I don't know if that's what it was, the money would not be worth how it could potentially affect his career. I don't know if he was going into acting, he might've felt that yes, it was money, but if he felt like he wasn't prepared yet, again, if you're not a classically, acting is hard. Michael Jamin: He was actually a pretty good actor. Maybe he thought that the show was going to put a stink on him. Maybe being associated with the show would've hurt his Instagram maybe, or Coco Mocoe: I mean, yeah. And there's just so many factors. He also maybe could have just been making so much money that it was just not social media. And the money on social media happens in such short spurts. You never know when a well is going to dry up. On YouTube, years ago, there was this apocalypse where people were making $300,000 a month, and then it dropped to $5,000 a month, and all these craters were scrambling. So you never know. And so I think some people, when they hit a stride, they don't want to get detracted from that. But I also think sometimes it's good to not always worry about money and think about the bigger picture. I mean, I just turned down a pretty big deal because I was like, it just didn't make sense for me, and I really had to trust that I know the bigger picture here. And even if I'm making less money in the next six months, that I know that down the line, the vision will be bigger than what I would've ever made. Michael Jamin: Well, that's a good segue. So two things. Are you represented by an agent? Coco Mocoe: I guess it's like a talent manager. I know agents are a little different, but Alright. Michael Jamin: So managers to, what is your larger picture, as you mentioned? Coco Mocoe: Yeah, I am flexible. I don't always know. I always say I don't really want to be in the public eye for long. I think a couple of years. And then I mean you, I'd love to write a book. I would love if I could write a book. And then I think long-term, I'll probably be what I'm doing now. And part of why I signed with the specific agent that I have now is when I was blowing up and I was getting a few offers, what he said to me was, you don't even really have to do a ton of brand deals. I think that you don't even have to gain another follower, but you could have a great career being a speaker and going to events. And that's really panned out. So I think maybe doing something like that, speaking engagements. I love my podcast. I could see that going for another five to 10 years if I'm lucky. You never know. But ultimately I would love to just write a book and then write off into the sunset. But I know it's not that easy. So I don't know. I will say though, I don't really like being a public figure. Again. I say I don't really think I'm that interesting. I think what I talk about is interesting. So I'd love to eventually pull back one day. Michael Jamin: So is this agent or manager, is that what they do for you to get you public speaking gigs? Is that what they, their goal? Coco Mocoe: Yeah. Yeah, all of it. So they do speaking engagements. I went to Adweek in New York. I went to Cannes Lion in France this summer. It was so great. And then brand deals, they're my day-to-day manager. So I meet with them and his team and constantly texting and emailing. And they also help me facilitate my consulting and stuff. I hate dealing with the conversations around money and contracts, and they're ones that step in and do all of that for me. And then I just show up for the meetings and give them my advice, and then that's all I have to deal with. Michael Jamin: And so what is it about, this will wrap it up, because this is a big question though. Being in the public eye, especially on TikTok, especially putting yourself vulnerable out there. They're haters, they're lunatics. Is this part of the problem? Coco Mocoe: I mean, sometimes, yeah. I've even recently just started replying to a few comments just because I want people to know that there's a real human, when you tell someone to go off themselves, there's an actual, I think people, it's crazy. I think that people see a video and it's hard for them to think that this isn't a one dimensional cardboard cutout. This is a real person. So yeah, I mean, sometimes it is the comments, the negativity. I think that ultimately though, if you know who you are that will shine through, you'll have mistakes and you'll have missteps and you'll have moments. But if you know kind of who you are and where you're headed, you'll always be okay. But I think more so for me, it's that I am really a big believer that going viral online can be a type of trauma. It can open up a lot of doors, but I think that it's really something that not a lot of people are prepared for. I think we see it with bigger celebrities that get famous young, the notion that sometimes fame is a type of trauma, yet everyone wants it. And so I think that being visible, no one, our human brains haven't evolved to processing, being seen by 20,000 people a day. We were used to having the 10 people in our little community in the middle of nowhere, and it's different. So I think there's just no understanding or process yet for really knowing what's happening. And it's traumatic and it can be scary. I mean, I love it. I think I'm good at tuning it out. I think it's so much better when you get famous or you get a viral moment when you're older. I think that I'm sure for us it's a little bit easier. I couldn't imagine being 16 and your frontal cortex is still developing. Well, Michael Jamin: What happened when you responded to that person said, Hey, I'm a real person. Did you get the response that you were hoping to get? Coco Mocoe: I mean, yeah. The best is when they delete the comment, just like I think they realized, but it's not even for the person who even left the comment. I more so do it too every, and not all the time I don't read. I got really good advice from a creator once. They said, once your video's been up for an hour or two, don't read the comments because it's not really going to be the people. You're on the for you page when you get your first hate comment. But I guess it's also just me kind of sending the message to other people that are leaving me comments, that I'm reading them and I see them. It's just always an effort to humanize myself. But I mean, it's hard. I feel like there's no right or wrong way. I think that the most successful people are the ones that just don't really care. And I envy that about some people. They just don't. I'm like, wow, that's so cool. Michael Jamin: Even for me, it affects me. So that's why I don't even the problems, I won't respond. Someone left a comment once a year ago or whatever, they left a question and then someone else commented, oh, don't bother asking this guy a question. He only responds to haters. And I thought, that's what I'm doing. I go, that's what I'm doing. And the person was right. I was only responding. I was rewarding the idiots. And so after that, I go, well, now I'm done. I'm not responding to anybody unless it's in a post. I'm not responding to anyone. Coco Mocoe: Oh, yeah. I mean, I really try the first hour to respond to a lot of the positive comments or if people are making, if they have good questions. And also if someone has a valid critique of my video, sometimes I'm not always going to get it right. And that's okay. And I'll reply. Thank you. You're right. I get that point too. So for me, I do try to, again, I think of it as that lecture hall where the first few people that are really reaching out and leaving thoughtful comments, it's someone who is like, you're in the lecture and they raise their hand, or they're a student who came up and they were so excited about what you were saying that they wanted to have that moment with you. And I mean, I think I'm really lucky though, in that I think my following is really, really intelligent. I think that the people that follow me are really thoughtful, and I'm very lucky that there's usually very thoughtful discussions in my comments as well. Michael Jamin: But see, I struggle with that. I was like, am I supposed to be accessible or not accessible? Who am I supposed to be on this? Coco Mocoe: And there's no, there's no yes or no answer. Some days you'll be more accessible and some days, some months, whatever you'll pull back. I think just really taking it based on your mood or where you're at. I think the biggest misconception I see with public figures and also creators is they feel like they have to make a decision, and then that's who they are. I get that a lot with authenticity and what do I reveal about myself and am I revealing too much? Am I not revealing enough? And I'm like, you don't have to make that decision in a boardroom one day. One day you're going to be more vulnerable. One day you're going to be, no one can find you. You're off the grid. Michael Jamin: But I don't know, the common knowledge is you're supposed to respond for the algorithm. But then I was like, if I'm working for the algorithm doing this, I'm out. The minute I start working the algorithm, I don't want to do it anymore. Coco Mocoe: And that's a very fair game. I totally get that sentiment. I know you'd said it earlier too, which is at what point are we just free employees to TikTok? And I agree, and that's why I think that the only way it really is beneficial is if you're always, again, there's just something bigger that you're striving for than TikTok, like feeding people to a podcast. And again, you don't want to always ask people to go and do something. There's a rule in marketing, it's called the 80 20 rule where 80% of your content should just be adding value, and then 20% is asking people to go buy a book or go to your pod. But yeah, I guess there's no right or wrong answer. Michael Jamin: I think there's something as we wrap it up, I think there's something smart that I learned. I think you said it, I'm trying to remember. I'm pretty sure you said it, and we'll talk a little bit about this. It was about, I think you, I'm sorry if it wasn't you. It was like you read some study that said part of what's the appeal of social media today is that people see you and it's this frequency with which they see you and then they fall in love with there are programmed like who we see all the time. Coco Mocoe: Yes. So there's a book called Fan Chasm, and it was Yes. And they basically studied the science behind parasocial relationships, which again, that's a buzzword that I feel like people throw around, but we don't even really understand it completely yet. And yeah, that's essentially what they said. And I guess we'll end on that note, so fascinating, but that the humans, and again, I'm not a psychologist, not claiming to be just my interpretation of this book, they essentially theorized that humans were programmed to bond with the faces that we see most often because that depended on our survival. So back when we were in small communities hunting bears, you had to make sure that you bonded with the person who caught the bear or else you weren't going to eat that week. And so we do it even subconsciously, but what's happening now with the internet and media, and we saw it in the early rise of celebrities as well, but that there's a disconnect happening where we see Taylor Swift's face more than we see our own boss's face or our mom's face, or sometimes even our roommate's face, whatever it is, because we're on our phones more than we're having conversations, we're seeing certain celebrities or creators faces more and more. And so we're subconsciously forming a closer and more loyal attachment to these people than we are to the ones in our own lives. And that's why we will become very fiercely. You'll see people really defend creators or celebrities because they feel like their survival depends on this person being okay and successful and being able to go catch the bear in the woods. Michael Jamin: Do you go that far as to think that their survival, I mean, that's a little much. Coco Mocoe: Exactly. And it doesn't their survival, but their brain thinks it does because it's like, again, not a psychologist, but the theory was that our brain truly is forcing bonds with the face that we see most often. We don't want to get kicked out of the tribe or whenever we were cavemen. We don't want to be the one that pisses off the leader and then has to be ousted so that when we see creators and stuff online, we want to leave the comment that impresses them. We want to be the person that likes their stuff first. We want to be the person that is noticed, and we put those relationships subconsciously on a higher pedestal than the people in our real life sometimes. But I think one way to it is just being conscious of that, just learning that that's happening. I always say to people, be critical of everyone you follow. Be critical of me. I'm going to make mistakes. Don't put anyone on a pedestal. You never know. And always let yourself have your own opinion and question everything that you see. Michael Jamin: You must be getting recognized out in the world now. Coco Mocoe: Yeah, and what's so funny, I get recognized the most by business people if I'm at conferences and stuff, or they're just the ones that are more confident to come up to me. But yeah, I mean, I do get recognized probably a couple times a week. Now what about you? I feel like you must get recognized. Michael Jamin: I don't leave my house, but when I do, on the rare occasion that I do, yeah, I sometimes do, and I ask myself this question, it's very strange thing. We talk about parasocial relationships afterwards. I'm saying to myself, did I give you what you wanted? Was I hope you wanted? Was I who you hoped I was? Coco Mocoe: Yes, I am the same way. I weirdly am so afraid of disappointing someone. I've had moments like that where working on the back end of the industry, before I ever had an account, I would have interactions with people. And I never, I was very lucky. I never had a bad interaction, but sometimes it just wasn't what I thought it would be. And being very, and again, it's like, but I didn't know why I was a stranger to them. But yeah, I'm always conscious, even if I'm just ordering coffee, sometimes I feel like there's a certain look that people will give. You know what I mean? It's like can't only other creators who have experienced it, know what I mean? I'm like, there's just a look where it's like they might not know my name or know where they knew me from, but they just recognize me in some way. And I never would want to, even whether they recognize me or not, I just never would want to leave someone with a bad experience. But now I know that there's stakes involved where I would never want someone to see my video in the future and be like, oh, she was mean to me at Starbucks one day. I'm always conscious of that. Michael Jamin: Yeah. The weird thing is it forces you to be a better person in public. I think so. And that in turn makes you a better person. You, you've be putting it on. So what now you're a better person regardless of whether you're acting or not. You're still a better person Coco Mocoe: Regardless of the intention. Yeah. It just makes you more conscious. And I think when you're aware of yourself, you do want to act better if you're always striving for better. But yeah. Yeah, Michael Jamin: It's a weird thing. And I don't think either of us would say we're famous, but we are recognized somehow sometimes. Coco Mocoe: Yeah. It's crazy. Michael Jamin: Wow. Coco Mocoe, thank you so much. Thank you. I'm going to encourage everyone who listens to my podcast and follow me. Just follow her. If your intention is to become, make it in Hollywood, whatever or not, but you're going to have to put yourself out there, and it's a good starting point. Social media, TikTok, Instagram, whatever, to just work on what it is. Put yourself out there and be willing to evolve. And Coco Moko, she'll just tell you what's going on and it'll just spark ideas in your head and you go, oh, maybe I'll try that. So you're just a wonderful resource for people. So myself included, because turned to you for help. Thank Coco Mocoe: You. Yeah, I mean, I just loved all your videos about just you talking about writing, and then you're so informative during the strike and stuff. And I think you're such a great resource too. So I love your videos. Michael Jamin: Oh, thank you so much. Don't go anywhere. I say hang on. And then thank everyone. Thank my audience. Thank you. The listeners. I got more great people lined up. So thank you so much for listening. Until next week, keep putting yourself out there. Okay, thanks. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars@michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have author, Joshua Fields Millburn of “The Minimalists”. Tune in as we talk about how he left corporate America and why he chose to live “The Minimalists” lifestyle. Show Notes Joshua Fields Millburn Website: https://joshuafieldsmillburn.com/ Joshua Fields Millburn on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joshuafieldsmillburn/ Joshua Fields Millburn on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6576362/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Joshua Fields Millburn: What happens is, oh, I'm going to leave and I'm just going to be a writer. And I had one boss that I had at the time said, look, if anyone could just quit their job and become a writer, then everyone would do it. And I looked at him and I said, well, I don't think everyone wants to do that first off, but second off, you're acting like I'm the first person in the history of the world who's decided to become Michael Jamin: A writer. You're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Michael Jamin: Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. I got a very special guest today. So today, this guy, I've been a fan of his work for a long time, and I discovered him a couple of years ago. It's Joshua Fields, Millburn, he's half of the minimalist. And these guys did a documentary, I'm going to give 'em a nice proper introduction. They did a documentary that I discovered which, and the message was so important. It's on minimalism and it's basically how you can live with more by having less, how you were richer by having less. And I just found that not only did I find the message so important, but I found their journey that these two guys put them on, put themselves on to be so inspiring. Just to give you a little bit of backstory before I finally let this guy get a word in edgewise, is that, so Joshua grew up, poor parents suffer, struggled with alcoholism. He decided, I'm speaking for him now, but this is what I picked up from the documentary, that he didn't want to be poor when he was an adult. I'm not going through that. So he managed to get jobs in management where he is actually making a good living, he's making money. And then at some point he realized, wait, this is not making me happy. And then he did a complete about face and reinvented himself. So Joshua, thank you so much for joining me. Let's, let's hear you talk now. Joshua Fields Millburn: Oh, Michael, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, it's funny, I did grow up really poor and I thought the reason we were so unhappy when I was growing up is we didn't have money and not knowing that all these other things that were actually chaotic in my life, some of the things you mentioned, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, physical abuse and violence in the home, and extreme poverty was a part of it, right? It was a part of that milieu of discontent. And I just hyper-focused on that one component. So when I turned 18, I went out and I got that entry level corporate job, and I spent the next dozen years sort of climbing the corporate ladder. And by age 30, I had achieved everything I ever wanted, the six figure salary, luxury cars, big house in the suburbs with more toilets than people. I really had all the stuff right? And all the stuff that you would consider to be the American dream, more closets full of designer clothes and all the nicest furniture and the status and the job title. And yet, as you mentioned, it wasn't making me happy. In fact, the closer I got to the pinnacle of success, it seemed to further away from happiness I got, which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And then two things happened to me. My mother died, my marriage ended both in the same month. And we talked about those in the last documentary on Netflix. And really those two events forced me to look around and start to question everything in my life, not just the stuff, but the career and the relationships and all of these other types of clutter that I began to uncover. Michael Jamin: But it seems to me though, when you reinvented yourself, and we'll get to that part, you were kind of at bottom. You had, like you said, you lost your marriage, you lost your mom. Is it easier to reinvent? Where do you get the balls to do this? Is it easier to do that when you're at the bottom than as opposed if you were, I don't know, happy enough in life? Joshua Fields Millburn: In a weird way, I think it's simultaneously easier and more difficult. And I'll try to explain that. I think it's easier in the sense that if you've lost a lot of the comfort and the certainty that you have in life, now all of a sudden you are willing to make a change because you're experiencing enough pain that leads to a change. The outverse of that was my successful corporate life. It was never 10 out of 10, awesome. It was constantly between a four and a five on a one to 10 scale. It was just comfortable enough to not make a change, but not comfortable enough or not uncomfortable enough maybe to have any sort of meaningful experiences. And so there was a weird level of perpetual anxiety and discomfort that undergirded all of it, but at the same time, it wasn't enough pain to make a significant change. So why was it easier? Well, because once you have enough pain, you start questioning everything. Why have I been so discontented? Why have I given so much material meaning to all these material possessions? Who's the person I want to become because I don't like the person I have become so far? And how am I going to redefine success? Because this level of success, the so-called success that I've achieved, if I'm miserable, is it really success? Well, success with misery, that seems like failure to me. Michael Jamin: But what was the final moment that you said, screw it, I'm quitting my job and I'm trying something else. Now, Joshua Fields Millburn: When I got closer and closer to the executives I wanted to be like, I had this whole career mapped out that by age 32, I'm going to be a vice president by age 35, I'm going to be a senior VP by age 40, I'm going to be a C-level executive, ideally ACOO of this corporation that I'd worked for since I was 18. And I'd climbed the corporate ladder. I was the youngest director in my company's 140 year history. I was responsible for 150 retail stores, which I know with the whole minimalism thing is really ironic. But I climbed the ladder and I got closer to these guys who I really aspired to be like. And I realized, well, wait a minute. As I got closer to them, the illusion, the mirage began to sort of dissipate. And I saw them for what they were. They weren't evil or bad guys. But I had one boss who was on his third divorce and second heart attack, and he was 50 years old. I'm 42 now. And I realized like, well, wait a minute. If I work really hard for the next 20 years, I can be just as miserable as these guys that I aspire to be like. But of course, what do we tell ourselves? We say, I'm going to be different. How am I going to be different if I follow the same exact recipe that all of these other guys are? And by the way, I've been following their recipe. If I continue to follow that recipe, I'm going to bake the same cake. And it became easy when I realized the fear of staying was actually more crippling than the fear of walking away. But Michael Jamin: Did you bounce this off at anybody? Hey, listen, I'm going to quit my job and to do, what was your plan? Joshua Fields Millburn: Right? I was just going to write. I mean, my honest plan at the time was we had started the minimalist.com. I was making no money from it whatsoever. I was going to work. I paired down my bills to literally next to nothing. I mean, when I walked away from the corporate world, eventually in 2011, I made $23,000 that first year. So I took a 90% pay cut. Strangely, I was more financially free that year than I had been the last decade. It was the least amount of money I made in my entire adult life, but I was more free that year because I got rid of all of those expenses. I used to tell myself I need these things, or the truth is there were things I wanted. But you know what? I wanted more than that. I wanted freedom. So you asked, did I talk to other people about it? Heck yeah. I did it first. I learned what a mistake that was. Really? Yeah, because what happens is, oh, I'm going to leave and I'm just going to be a writer. And I had one boss that I had at the time said, well, if anyone could just quit their job, become a writer, then everyone would do it. And I looked at him and I said, well, I don't think everyone wants to do that first off, but second off, you're acting like I'm the first person in the history of the world who's decided to become a writer. And my plan was, I'm going to work in this coffee shop in my local neighborhood, make enough just to pay my rent. I was living in Dayton, Ohio. My expenses were really, really low. I spent two years paying off all of my debt because I knew as long as I was tethered to debt, I was going to be tethered to this job, which means I was tethered to this lifestyle. And in a weird way, I was financing a car that would take me to work so I could pay the car payment for the car that would take me to work. I needed to get rid of all of those things that I wanted but weren't serving my freedom. I had to let go of those things so I could embrace the life I actually wanted to live. Michael Jamin: But was there any moment where you're even saying to yourself, I don't know, I think I'm kidding myself. You had to have been checking yourself with doubt even while you were convinced, I'm going for it, right? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. Now maybe I have an irrational confidence in a way. I never thought all the things that happened would happen, and we took a rather circuitous route. I didn't know have a 10 year plan or anything like that. My confidence was like, man, I think I can make enough money to pay my rent working at a coffee shop, and then I can just write in my other hours. And that's all I wanted. I found out what enough was for me because all those other things, they weren't doing it for me anymore. I thought, if I just get the Lexus, then I'll be happy I got the Lexus. Well, maybe the second Lexus will make me happy. That didn't do it. Well, maybe the Range Rover will make me happy. That didn't do it either. Okay. And by the way, I didn't own any of those things. I didn't own the big house. I had these things were all finance. I made really good money, but I spent even more money. So I had tremendous amounts of debt, about half a million dollars worth of debt, and I had to get rid of all of it in order to untether from that. And I realized those things never got me to enough. Enough is not about getting more and our society, it's actually about subtracting. And I knew I needed to subtract the things to get me down to enough. I already had enough peace, enough happiness, enough joy. Those things were simply covered up by all these external pursuits. Michael Jamin: I can understand Alexis not making you happy, but a Range Rover that surprises me Now, what kind of writing were you trying to do or were you doing that? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, it was just fiction. I was really into fiction at the time. I thought that's all I was going to do. The minimalist was this side project. My best friend Ryan, he and I, we grew up together. We grew up really poor. We've known each other since we were fat little fifth graders. And we climbed the corporate ladder together as well. And he actually came to me about eight months into my letting go, my simplifying. We were still both working in the corporate world together. And he came to me one day and he said, why the hell are you so happy? And I didn't even go around saying, look at me. I'm a minimalist now. I got rid of my stuff. I didn't say anything to anyone. I just started letting go of extra clothes that were in my closet or things that were getting in the way that weren't serving me junk, that was non-essential and clutter basically. And I noticed that those material possessions were, and I didn't know this at the time, but they were at this physical manifestation of what was going on inside of me. And as I started letting go of this external clutter, I started clearing out some of this internal clutter, the relationship clutter, the mental clutter, the psychological clutter, the emotional clutter, the calendar clutter in my life. There was all these other types of clutter that I was not prepared for, didn't even know that I was clinging onto. And then when Ryan comes to me and says, why the hell are you so happy? It opened up this door for me to talk about this simplifying I had been doing. And so he started simplifying as well, and he's way more type A than I. And he's like, that's great. You've spent almost a year doing this. I need to do this right now. And so we came up with this crazy idea called a packing party, which we made a film version of for our last film, less Is Now. And ultimately, that was the beginning of the minimalist.com. We were just going to write about that 21 day journey, and it was going to be a place for me to publish a few essays that I wanted to write about, but I just wanted to write fiction. And then what I realized is like, oh, wait a minute. A lot of people were finding value in these words. I remember the very first month we started the minimalist.com, 52 people, they visited the website, which sounds really unremarkable now, but at the time, I was so impressed by it. You got to think, throughout my twenties, I wrote fiction, and the only people who were reading my stuff were agents and publishers who were sending me rejection letters. I had an inch thick stack of rejection letters of people telling me, no. Now, unbeknownst to me, a lot of the stuff was actually kind of garbage at the time. That's any writer that realizes that the stuff that seems so precious and gold, everything that comes off of my quill must be perfect. No, it was nonsense. But it made me the writer that I am today. And so I started writing@theminimalist.com, and I realized once 52 people turned into 500 people, and then it turned into four or 5 million people over the years, what I realized was that, oh, when someone gets value from something, they tend to share it with their friends and their family and their loved ones. Adding value, sharing value is a basic human instinct. And this was before the TikTok and Instagram and all these great ways to share these different things. People were actually forwarding our blog to their sister or their aunt or their uncle, or whomever it might be in their family, just sending off to 'em an email or a text message. And it just really began to spread word of mouth. I said, oh, maybe we actually have something here. Let's keep trying this out. Michael Jamin: Right? It's so interesting because people often complain today, it's so hard to go viral. You went viral before there was viral. It's like, well, because you had interesting things to say, and that gets shared. It's like, stop. People say it's so hard. Well, yeah, it's even harder when there's no such thing as viral. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. And in fact, I don't even know that we ever had anything until our Netflix film came out, which the first one is now on YouTube, and that thing has even taken off. It's gotten a third life now. We did a theatrical release around it, and I could give you some really impressive stats around that. We had the number one documentary in 2016 in theaters, which sounds really impressive to you realize when in the hell have I seen a documentary in a theater. No one goes to theaters to see documentaries. So maybe 50,000 people saw it in a theater, but now 50,000 people see it in an hour or whatever. But before that, we never really had anything. And even now, we rarely have things that go viral. I think about when someone's playing baseball, the much more impressive players on a long enough trajectory aren't the people that are hitting grand slams and home runs occasionally. Those are the viral moments. But we constantly had these singles or doubles. We were getting on base all the time. We were resonating with this core group of people, and there weren't things that many, many tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people were seeing. But it was like, oh, wow, a hundred thousand people read that article. Oh, wow. 23,000 people shared this one thing, whatever it might be. And it built from there. We didn't have anything that was just like, here's this huge viral moment. It was just these repeated things over and over. Oh, this resonated. Let me send this to my sister because I think it'll resonate with her too. But Michael Jamin: How did you go from the moment? How did you literally go from a very popular blog to getting a documentary on Netflix? What was that step? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. Over the years, I became what I call vehicle agnostic. I remember when we first started the blog, Ryan came to me with the idea, we didn't even have the name for it. He was like, Hey, do want to, we didn't even know it was called a blog at the time. Do you want to start a website so we can share some of this story with other people? And I said, sure, we'll write a few things and we'll get that out there. It'd be great. It'd be a nice way for me to try my writing chops online. I've never done that before because all I really wanted to do was write books, specifically novels. I just wanted to write fiction, and I was rather married to that formula, that genre, that format, that vehicle to communicate my writing. And then I started realizing like, oh, that's one way to do it. But some people find value in the blog, and then other people find value in a tweet and other people find value in. Well, eventually we started the podcast, which has now been our main vehicle for communicating things. It's even eclipsed what we've done with the blog in terms of listenership and then other people, they might get value from a YouTube video, and some people will get value from a long form documentary or a book. And so I've become vehicle agnostic. It's meeting people where they are as opposed to dragging them toward, Nope, if you want to read about this, you have to read a 300 page book between bound covers. No, it's meeting them where they are. We actually do a lot more audio books than we do print books now, because that is one way that people prefer to consume those materials. I prefer reading a physical book personally, but I'm not going to prescribe that to anyone else. Michael Jamin: Okay. So how did you wind up selling it to Netflix, though? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, great question. So we were in 2014, our second book came out in January 1st, 2014. It was called Everything That Remains. Ryan and I moved to this cabin in the middle of nowhere. Literally in middle of nowhere, there was one traffic light in 3,400 square miles. And it's sort of that romantic vision. You think we're in Montana, right? It's like, oh, wow. I say romantic, not like sexual romance, but romance in the sense like, oh, this little writer moves to the cabin. And man, when you're in Montana in winter and it's negative 26 degrees and it's in October, you realize all you really have to do is quite literally chop wood for the fireplace. That kept us warm and and we wrote the second book called Everything That Remains. It was the story of these two suit and tie corporate guys who walk away from the corporate world become minimalist. It was our journey. We went on book tour that year with it. Now again, that sounds like a really romantic vision. Book tour for us was like, we set up the book tour ourselves, and we did a hundred cities in eight countries, 119 events, 10 months of our lives. Michael Jamin: I have to interrupt. So much good stuff here. Yeah. You said this was, your book was traditionally published, or was it indie published? Joshua Fields Millburn: It was independently published, but we started, it's a long story. We started our own publishing company. We had a handful of employees there as well, and then it was traditionally published overseas. So we did a sort of hybrid model of it. Not self-published, but independently published and then picked up by other publishers. Michael Jamin: Right. Okay. So then you set up this book tour. You were side all this work. I have to point this out. Some people think, oh, you see the publisher made it happen. No, no, no. No one made any of this happen except you two guys, because you wanted it to happen. So tell me, so then, how did this book tour come about? Joshua Fields Millburn: Well, thankfully, we had some experience in the business world. We knew how to run a business. We started our own business with a third person named Colin Wright, who's a prolific author by age 30, I think. He had written 32 books and independently published quite a few of them and gone the traditional route with some other things and had some things optioned by Hollywood. And we realized we had come up with this formula, oh, what is possible to do independent publishing, which is different from a big traditional publisher, and it's also different from Vanity Publishing or self-publishing. I kind of liken it to indie music. You have big acts who are huge mega stars, the Taylor Swifts and the Miley Cyrus of the world, and they thrive in that giant recording industry system. And then you have people who just are garage bands and they have fun jamming in their garage. That's sort of self-publishing. But there's, in music, there's this whole other world of independent publishing or independent music, independent artists, especially now with the things we've gotten so easy. But even since the eighties and nineties, you've had independent artists who don't fall into the big label system, but aren't just garage bands aren't just jamming. They actually make a living. And we said, what if we model ourselves after independent musicians, people who are able to fill a 200 cap room, they can't fill up an arena or whatever. What if we did that? But we did it with book publishing, and eventually with that publishing company, we ended up signing nine different authors and showed them how to fail with us and took some of them out on tours. We did our own version of independent publishing for those authors, poets and fiction writers, all of that. And we learned a lot along the way. So when we booked our own tour, it was literally us and a few employees and interns that we had there in Montana. We eventually moved our operations to the big city of Missoula, Montana, 70,000 people there. It was a writing school there at the University of Montana. In fact, our office was at the university. They had a startup incubator there. And so we decided, Hey, we're going to go on this book tour. We had been on a few before, smaller ones, but we want to do it right. We really believed in this book. We believed in this message. So what we did is we set up a hundred different cities, 119 events, and the message really began spreading. We did 400 media interviews that year, traditional media and non-traditional media, but everything from, we'd be on the morning news at 5:20 AM in Albuquerque now, I don't know, maybe 14 people are watching that. But it allowed us really to develop our interviewing chops, and it allowed us to see what resonates with different people while we go out on these tour stops. Now, it wasn't sexy. Our business plan that year was, if we sell enough books tonight, we can stay in a hotel. If we don't, we're going to sleep in Ryan's Toyota Corolla. And then occasionally, sometimes listeners or they weren't listeners at the time, they were audience members, viewers, readers. They would let us stay at their spare bedroom or in their guest house, or sometimes we'd just sleep on the floor, we'd sleep at rest stops, whatever made sense. And it was quite literally living in the moment. We're going tonight, we're going to be in Des Moines, and then we have a tour stop tomorrow in Omaha, and eventually we'll work our way around to Halifax, Canada. And we're just driving around in Ryan's Toyota Corolla making that happen. And what I realized is that, yeah, early on, eight people would show up at a tour stop, but as the message began to continue, it really, it increased exponentially. By the end of that tour, thousands of people were showing up at tour stops, and we would have, Michael Jamin: Tell me about these tour stops though. Are you at indie bookstores or are you booking venues for yourself? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, initially we booked indie bookstores. In fact, all hundred cities. We did indie book shops except for two or three cities that just don't have an indie bookstore at all anymore, which is really sad. Las Vegas was a good example of that. I think Dallas didn't have an indie bookshop at the time. That's actually been fixed recently. But what we did is we'd book these with indie bookstores, and then when the crowds became too large for those bookstores, then they would find a local theater or a local public yoga studio or some open space that we could have these tour stops. We partner with these indie bookstores, and then they would help us with the space and these tour stops. So Michael Jamin: Who's paying for the space though? Or you guys Joshua Fields Millburn: Usually the bookstore would, they'd have some sort of arrangement with a local, they'd have a theater across the street. I remember we showed up in Indianapolis and 80 people R RSVP'd for that event, which you never know, because they're free events. Sometimes 80 people, r rss, VP and maybe 40 people actually show up because it's free. We had 80 people, RSVP, and we knew the bookstore only held about 60 people. You could maybe cram an extra 20 in there, but we had 400 people show up at the Indianapolis Book tour stop. And that's when I kind of knew like, oh, this is bigger than I thought it was ever going to be. And they had to find, they had a local theater across the street that was abandoned, but had recently been acquired by a friend of theirs, and they just let us use it. I mean, we had no plan. We were just kind of showing up and figuring out what would happen, holding court in the theater with no microphones, no electricity. We just found a way to make it happen. And it wasn't always pretty, but man, I think if we were trying to wait for everything to be perfect, we'd still be waiting. Michael Jamin: That's exactly right, because this is what I'm always yelling at people, stop asking for permission, put the energy in and then see you make it happen. That's what I find so inspiring. By what I mean, Jesus. I mean, you've literally reinvented yourself and none of it was easy, but you did it anyway. And now, do you still go back on tour? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, we've done 10 tours in the last 12 years, and they're appreciably different. The reason I brought that up is because while we were on the road, we didn't have any extra money to film a documentary, but we had our friend, Matt Vela, who is huge now, has a huge YouTube channel, huge following. But at the time, he was just a young filmmaker who was looking to do something meaningful, and he had reached out to us and we started talking, and he was doing commercials at the time. In fact, he filmed the book trailer for that book I talked about. I was like, well, we don't have a ton of money, but I can pay you. We're going to be doing a media event in New York. Why don't you come out film that and do a book trailer for everything that remains? And so we paid him to do that, and we said, Hey, do you want to come on the road with us for a few weeks during this long tour that we're doing, and we'll set up some interviews along the way, and that way we don't have to fly to all these different cities. And so part of that tour, about six to eight weeks of that tour was just Matt in the back of the Corolla with all his gear and lighting set up. And while we go to a city, we say, oh, there are these great people we want to interview in San Francisco, or there's someone in Los Angeles you want to interview, or, oh, we're going to be doing a tour stop in Salt Lake City. I know we want to talk to these two people while we're in Salt Lake City, or we're going to be in Austin, Texas. Make sure we interview these people while we're there. We're going to be in Philadelphia. I know there's someone we want to talk to there. And so we just went around while we were in the city, we'd make time with any downtime. We had to film some interviews. And at the end of it, Michael, I got to tell you, we had a thousand hours of footage. We didn't know what the hell we were doing. We had a thousand hours of footage. Now the first documentary is 79 minutes long. And I remember at the end of that tour, we just looked at Matt and said, okay, good luck with all the footage. Now, a lot of the interviews we didn't use, a lot of it was road footage and other things, and he pieced together something really special. We went through nine different iterations of that film, and eventually we pitched it to Netflix and they were like, not for us. And they were really the only streaming game at town at the time. This is back in 2015 when we were finishing up the film. There were a few other smaller services then that don't even exist anymore. But Netflix was pretty much the only game in town, but I've always been the, all right, that's fine. You don't want it. We'll put it out on our own. Let's do a theatrical release, which I would never, ever do again. It's crazy. And we submitted the film festivals. We did a theatrical release, 400 theaters, us, Canada, Australia, and didn't get anyone's permission. We just figured out a way to do it. We found a distributor who was willing to work with us to get it into select theaters around the country. And so it was wildly successful in theaters for a documentary. And so we went back to Netflix and we were like, Hey, look how great it did. And they're like, yeah, still not for us. Sorry. Okay, no problem. Let's go ahead and put this online on our own transactional video, on demand, get it up on iTunes and Amazon and Vimeo. And we did that. And because we had already cultivated this audience through our blog and eventually through the podcast, which we had just started to help promote the film, ironically, the film ended up promoting the podcast way more than we anticipated, but we had built this audience. They sent it to number one on iTunes, and now Netflix came back to us and they were like, Hey, you know that film that you came to us with? Michael Jamin: See, I just had a long talk about this a couple days ago when people are begging to get into Hollywood, I go, if you want Hollywood to want, you got to smell like money, which is what you guys did. You stunk of money, which is because you had created this thing which people wanted. Now, Netflix, that's how you sell something. Netflix comes to you. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, and they did. And what they did is, ironically, they paid us less than we made from any other platform, so we made less money from Netflix. But they did something really great for us. They got us into so many more homes. They got us into, in fact, they only did the US rights initially or the English rights, but then it did so well for them on the platform. They licensed the worldwide rights for a three year period, and they re-upped those rights for another three years. So we spent about seven years on Netflix with that first film, and eventually just this year, we got the rights back and we put it up on YouTube on our own, and millions of other people that have seen it on YouTube now. But Netflix got us in front of about 80 million people. And so that changed everything. It brought a lot of people into the podcast, and it also made them want to work with us on a second film. So they worked with us on our second film, less Is Now, and it became a Netflix, which ended up getting nominated for an Emmy, which I thought was a joke. When I got the email, I had to check the, I was like, oh, this must be some sort of spam nonsense. And what I realized is I wasn't pursuing any of these things specifically. It was just like these things were a great byproduct. Let's just sit down and create something that we really want to create, and hopefully everything else works out. Michael Jamin: Tell me about, so your friend, Matt, because I have so many questions here. When he came along on the ride with you, was he getting paid or was he doing this just to hustle himself to make his own projects happen? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, more of the latter. We just said, Hey, man, we want to make sure we give you a disproportionately generous portion of this film because I don't have money to pay you for this right now. And so you are also an owner of the film as the director. He was also the editor. That's actually his true talent. I mean, he's a phenomenal director, but he is a savant of an editor. So he just came on the road with us and owns a major chunk of the film as a result. Had we just paid him, I mean, sure he would own less, but what I like about this is making sure that we always take money off the table with any of these things. Anyone who works with the minimalists now, it's like, okay, I'm probably not going to make you a millionaire, but what I'm going to do is provide a atmosphere for creative work that you'll enjoy and find meaning in. And also make sure you're compensated well enough for it, that you're not worried about money. And so, hey, this is a project we're going to work on together. We didn't know if anything was going to happen. Honestly, I didn't even know if it was going to be turned when you have a thousand hours worth of footage. I don't even know if you can turn that into a documentary, but if so, great. I mean, there's so many other projects we've started. That's the problem with the iceberg. You see only what's above the water. But we've worked on other films, we've worked on other books, we've worked on blog posts, podcast episodes, whatever, that never see the light of day. But that's just the way things, a lot of things hit the cutting room floor that aren't meant to be shown to the public. Michael Jamin: Are you worried about running out of things to say, because your message is simple, it's the less you have, the less fewer problems you have, but are you worried about, okay, what do I say now? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, what a thoughtful question. I think that's an important question too, because it's not about just continuing to regurgitate the 16 rules for living with less or whatever. Those things are helpful for people, but they're out there already. What I've learned is as I've uncovered that external clutter, I really found all of these other forms of clutter. So recently we've been talking a lot more about these other types of clutter that are creating dread or anxiety in our lives. Calendar clutter is a big one that comes up a lot. I didn't even realize how much calendar clutter I had because I was saying yes to all of these things. It sounded good opportunities on their own. But when I say yes to this, and I say yes to this, I say yes to this inadvertently after saying a thousand yeses, now I'm saying no to the things that are actually most important to me. Everyone else's emergency is now becoming urgent for me. But just because something is urgent for you doesn't mean I have to take it on or I have to say yes to it. And what I realized is that calendar clutter is a type of consumerism. It's thinking that if I just say yes to all the right things, then my life will be complete. But it ends up stressing us out, and it's become culturally acceptable. In fact, it's become praised, right? Oh, what are you up to lately? I'm just so busy. Look how important I am. I'm so busy. Right, right. Michael Jamin: Please, I didn't interrupt you. Well, Joshua Fields Millburn: Busy is just a four letter word. It just means my life's out of control whenever I go around saying I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. It means I don't have control of my own life. Michael Jamin: So what's interesting is you made this step, which is to forsake all these trappings to become minimalist. And as you became more successful, the trappings somehow find a way to encroach back in. Absolutely. And you have to keep checking that Joshua Fields Millburn: Consumerism takes many forms, and for me, it was the material because I thought that was going to make me happy or whole or complete, but then you replace that with other things. I remember when we first became unquote famous, people started recognizing us in public. It wasn't about like, is this enough? It's like, how do I get more of this? Right? But then you realize really quickly, it took me about six months, so maybe it wasn't that quick. It took me about six months to realize like, oh, this isn't why you're doing this, man. If you're chasing happiness, you're never going to find it. You were chasing it over here with the Range Rover or the big house or whatever. You didn't get it there. You're not going to get it from applause or veneration either. And what I realized over time is what enough for me is zero. I don't need the applause. I don't need the praise. Those things are nice, and I'm not allergic to them, and I'm not shunning them either. Anthony Dello talks about as soon as you denounce a thing, you're forever tethered it to it. And I find that to be true. I'm not denouncing material possessions. I own stuff. I'm talking to you in a microphone. I'm wearing a shirt. I'm wearing pants. I'm wearing shoes, whatever it is, I own some stuff. I don't denounce things, but I also don't need things to be hold or complete. I am complete in an empty room, and I don't need material possessions. I don't need your praise. I don't need a specific relationship in order to make me happy. I can have those things. I can enjoy those things, but as soon as I need them, that's the type of prism. Michael Jamin: Yeah, it's just so interesting because you've created the success for yourself, and yet it still has a way of sneaking back in, and you have to constantly check it. So it's a journey now. You're never there. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. Yeah. I would say success doesn't exist because it's almost like it's a mirage, right? You see the successful person. I do this at some of our tour stops or live events sometimes, and I was asked the crowd, shout out one thing that you associate with a successful person. If I show you a picture of a successful person, what does that person look like? And it's almost always like an ad from a magazine almost. It's like it's a guy wearing a suit, so it's an expensive suit. There's some sort of expensive jewelry or watch if it's a woman, she has a nice dress and a nice handbag, and it's always the accoutrements of success, but it's never about the person's interstate. It's never like, oh, yeah, they're really at peace, or they don't really need for much. Now you can redefine what success is, but culturally, when we talk about success, there's a portrait of success that we're identifying. And now it's so absurd. It's like it's not just the nice suit. It has to be the Louis Vuitton shoes, or it has to be the Gucci wallet, or it has to be the Balenciaga, whatever. And these become the markers of success, but they're just trinkets. And even those things I'm not against necessarily, but they're not going to make you happy. Michael Jamin: Do you find yourself slipping into judgment though of people who have it? Joshua Fields Millburn: I used to, yeah, because I would pathologize needing those things, but now I don't judge. I identify because that's just me, man. Yes, I want to be accepted, or at least I wanted to be accepted. And I thought that those things were a shortcut. And so if anything, I have empathy for my former self who thought that was going to make people. And here's the perverse thing about it. Let's say that buying the right car or the right wallet or the right belt or the right shoes or whatever, does get you acceptance from a particular peer group. Well, man, you're being accepted for things that aren't even you. So are they accepting you or are they accepting the status symbols? But Michael Jamin: Let me get your help on something. I wrote a story about this in my book where it's like when I walk by, my wife and I go by, we take walks in these very expensive neighborhoods. It's pleasant to walk around in, and you look at a big house and a big, and you go, man, and my instinct is, yeah, but they're miserable. And she goes, you don't know that. I hope what they have to be do they have to be? Can't they be happy and have a big house and all that stuff? Joshua Fields Millburn: Tell me. Yeah, absolutely. It's unlikely. It's Michael Jamin: Unlikely. Go on. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, it's unlikely because the constant need for more does not stop when you get the big house. What do you want? I mean, I live up in Ojai, California, and a lot of people live there in their third home. Their third home is in, I used to live in Missoula, Montana, and man, a lot of people have their second or third home in Missoula, and I'm not against that even, right? But when is it enough? What amount of square footage is enough? Here's a question. We never were stopped to ask how much money is enough? Because more always sounds like it's better, which fine if someone comes in here and hands me bags of money, I'm not going to object to that, but that's not how capitalism works. What happens with capitalism? I'm not against capitalism either, but the ugly side of capitalism is now you're tethered to something. Someone shows up with a bag full of a million dollars. It's not no strings attached. There are definitely strings attached, and those strings are attached. It's taken away from my freedom. There's this essay that was in the New York Times a few years ago called Power. No, thanks, I'm good. And in that essay, they posit that the least free person in America is the president in the United States, the most powerful person in America as the least free person. Well, why is that? It's because to have dominion over everyone comes with a whole lot of strings. You're tethered to obligations, and by untethering from obligations, you may not be able to have the big house, but you might have something that you want a whole lot more, some tranquility, some peace, some equanimity, Michael Jamin: Right? I just wonder, does that take convincing of your stick? Do you have to convince yourself of that, or you just go, no, I'm in. I'm in. Joshua Fields Millburn: No, I think you just have to see it. You have to see it. Yeah, because I don't think any level of convincing ever works. I think it was Dale Carnegie who said, A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion. Still. I love that because yeah, you can convince me that Michael Jordan's the greatest basketball player of all time, but if I don't actually believe that, I'm going to go back to my defaults. Kapil Gupta says, everyone defaults to their defaults. And so, yeah, you can convince me for a period of time, but unless I actually see it, and that's what happened when I walked away from the corporate world, I actually saw it. It wasn't just this hypothetical or cerebral exercise. It was feeling it viscerally. And then you don't need any convincing, no level of convincing is required. That's what love is, by the way. To love someone is to see them for who they are without trying to convince them of your love, without trying to manipulate them or coerce them, actually seeing them. And I think that's true with our material possessions, with our calendar, with that big house that you see in Beverly Hills or wherever. You know what, yes, you see it for what it is. You see the tethers that are attached to it, and if you want those tethers fine, but if you don't want what is attached to those tethers, realize that you don't actually want the house either. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Michael Jamin: See, to me, what you're saying is you literally, I don't know, you took a leap. You took a leap of faith. I believe that this is not going to make me happy, and I believe this will make me happy. And you're someone who continues to make leaps. This is a little bit of a segue here, but you took a leap from being management into a writer, into a performer. Now you're on stage. Where do you get the balls to say that I'm a performer now? You know what I'm saying? It's a leap. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. I don't ever think of it that way. I guess I just started doing these events because was happy that I remember once we did a tour stop in Knoxville in 2011. It was our first book, which is called Minimalism, and no one showed up, and we were at this little bookstore slash cafe. So Ryan and I are just there. It's a random Thursday night and we're drinking coffee, waiting on it. Is anyone going to show up? Oh man, no one showed up. And it's like, we'll give it 10 more minutes. We start walking out, it's half hour into the event, and we're walking out, and as we're walking out, there's this guy who and his girlfriend who are walking in, they say, Hey, you're the minimalists. And I'm like, yes, yes, we are. And they're like, we don't Michael Jamin: Even have an audience. That's how minimal you're yes. Joshua Fields Millburn: And they're like, we're here to see you. I'm like, that's great. You're the only people who showed up and well, so let's sit down, pull up a chair. Let's have a conversation. So we had a tour stop with two people, show up, and to me, that was one of the most meaningful experiences we've had. I didn't look at it as a performer. I've kind of been like, water. We just fit the vessel that we're in, and if two people show up, we'll have a great two person conversation, Michael Jamin: But surely Joshua Fields Millburn: Thousand people show up. We'll have a different conversation. Michael Jamin: But you must have some kind of pressure to feel like I have to entertain here. Not just educate, but entertain. No, Joshua Fields Millburn: I enjoy entertaining. I don't know that I have to. That would also feel like a prison, but I enjoy entertainment. I like shows that are actually shows, right? Conversations are cool, but I really like when people put the effort and get really obsessed about something, whether it's set design or it is audio, or it is the way the words look on a page in the type setting, whatever it is. I really appreciate the obsession. And yeah, I do like entertainment. I don't know. That's the point of doing what I do, but I don't think that it hurts. I mean, it's to be entertaining in a way is to be courteous to an audience. No one goes to the beach with a calculus textbook and says like, oh, I'm really looking forward to diving because there's no entertainment there at all. It's not delightful. And so I do enjoy delighting an audience, and I think it makes it what we're talking about a lot more compelling. Michael Jamin: But was there a moment there had to be of imposter syndrome. Who am I to be standing here? Who am I to be writing this book? Who am I to be? Was there ever that, Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, yeah. I guess that I never felt like an imposter. I just always felt like I was exploring. You're exploring. Yeah, because I'm not prescribing anything to anyone. Anytime I do, then I'll start to feel like an imposter isn't. Here are the three things that you should do to be happy. In fact, happiness doesn't even work like that. There's nothing you can do to be happy. Happiness can't be acquired. It can't be attained. It is already there. It's preexisting. We never go to a baby and say, well, here are three things you should do to be happy. You just see 'em smile and coup and laugh, and it's like, oh, well, why can't I do that? Well, I've covered it up with all the damn prescriptions, right? So I'm not prescribing anything. Anytime I do, then yeah, I start to feel like an imposter because who knows what. But people often call into our podcast and they'll say, do you have any advice about this? And the first thing I always say is, I don't have any advice, but I have some observations because I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I see. Michael Jamin: So it's really just about you maintaining your authenticity and speaking what your truth is and take it or leave it. It's whatever someone else's truth is, that's for them to decide. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, if I see a truth, I can observe it. I can put it out there on the table, and whether or not someone else picks it up, that's up to them. By the way, my beliefs don't really matter at all anyway. My beliefs don't matter. The listener's beliefs don't matter. The truth is the only thing that does matter. I was just talking to someone earlier today about this. If I told you I believe the earth is flat, does that matter? Does it change anything? No, but I think the adverse of that also doesn't change it. What do I tell you? I believe the earth is round. Well, so what? Congratulations. Right? The earth is round regardless of whether or not I believe it, and no amount of belief or clinging to a belief or changing a belief or convincing someone else that my belief is right is going to change what the truth is Michael Jamin: Right now. I'm jumping a little bit, but I feel like part of what your journey was, I wonder was it made a lot easier because you went on it with your best friend. It seems to me like I'm not sure if I could do this alone. Joshua Fields Millburn: In some ways it was easier, but a lot of times it was way harder. I are so different people. I mean, we're exact opposites in many ways. I'm super introverted. He's super extrovert. He's the most extroverted person I know. I'm the most introverted person I know. So if you look at us on a Myers-Briggs personality test, I am an ISTJ, he's an ENFP. We're literally exact opposite person. Excuse me, exact opposite personalities. But when we interact with each other, we're both mentors and mentees to each other. And I found that was really helpful to have someone there to help maybe keep me accountable. But other times it was, oh, man, it's hard to not want to change this person to pick up my beliefs. And then what happens is we start battering each other with our own beliefs or our own opinions, and we've moralized everything, right? Oh, you like cappuccinos more than lattes? Clearly you're wrong. I have a preference. And so it was harder, but it also allowed me to let go of a lot of that belief clutter that I was holding onto Michael Jamin: Belief clutter. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's what I picked up from your last special. It's not just about letting go of stuff. It's about letting go of preconceived notions. It's about letting go of. Yeah. I mean, that's what I found so inspiring by what you guys are doing, but I don't know, it seems to me, because you still have a business here, you have a creative business, you've reinvented themselves as creative people, and you're going on, I don't know, at the end of the day, you still got to pay the bills. You're taking a big risk. So to me, it feels like, does having that partner there put you at ease a little bit? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. I mean, the weird thing is I still make less money than I did in the corporate world, and in fact, they even took a pay cut this year to make sure that everyone is being paid well, and I'm totally fine with that. There are a lot of things I could do that I don't want to do. Michael Jamin: You mean opportunities don't Joshua Fields Millburn: Do ads? On our podcast, for example, Michael Jamin: You don't do ads on your podcast? Joshua Fields Millburn: No, I don't like 'em. I like going to museums, and I can only imagine if I went to the LACMA and I went to the Picasso room and all of a sudden they were painting McDonald's arches onto his paintings. I wouldn't feel as good about the art. Michael Jamin: It's funny. I don't monetize either, but to me it's about something. What's the end goal then? What's the monetization process? Promote your other projects. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, I mean, that's part of it. I just enjoy doing it. We didn't monetize the podcast at all for years, and now we just supported on Patreon. So we do a private version of the podcast for patrons who want to support us, but frankly, that's a very small sliver of the audience. Everything else we do for free, completely ad free. We don't monetize our YouTube channel. I just don't like advertisers, and that's not a moral stance, and it's not a judgment on anyone else. It's just a personal preference to me. There's some people who just really don't like cilantro, and I'm not going to convince them that they should like cilantro or that, oh, you're morally wrong because you dislike cilantro. It's kind of gross to them. And advertisements on my podcast are just kind of gross to me. I Michael Jamin: Understand that. But it seems to me it almost like you're bi minimalism and then someone puts an ad to buy sneakers that you don't eat or whatever. I could see the disconnect, but also, you're entitled to have a business and you're entitled to make a living. And what you offer has value. I mean, Joshua Fields Millburn: I don't think I'm entitled to anything, but I can do any of those. There are no shoulds. There are endless possibilities. Endless coulds so I could do ads. There are a bunch of things I could do, but I just choose not to because rather not. And to me, I would rather just go work at a coffee shop than put ads on. I'll do the podcast for free and just go work at a coffee shop than put ads on. We have enough listeners that I could make seven figures a year from putting ads on the thing. So put my preferences where my mouth is, and again, it is not a moral stance and it's not me standing on a pedestal. I just simply dislike ads and I'm not willing to say yes to something that grosses me out. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Well, good for you. Who can't respect that, but what is it then that gives you joy? What is it that you're working towards? What are your other ambitions with the minimalist? What do you want to do? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, I don't look at success if I do look at success at all. I don't look at it as the big accomplishments. Those things can be fun as a byproduct, whether it's being a bestselling author or being nominated for an Emmy or whatever it might be. I don't shoot for those things. I try to map out my life to see what I want to do on a random Wednesday. What do you want your average Wednesday to look like? Michael Jamin: Okay. What do you want your average Wednesday to look like? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, yeah. Usually I want to get up, I want to exercise, I want to read. I want to write those three things I do first thing in the morning. I really enjoy those things. I'll get some sun. I'll go for a hike. I'll do some grounding. I might have a conversation like this or two, I limit the conversations that I have just because I don't want to keep saying yes to a bunch of things, because if I'm saying yes to this, I want to be present with you. This is a hell yes for me. We're having this conversation right now. Why distract myself with something else I have going on this afternoon or tomorrow or whatever? My point is that if you solve for Wednesday, there's nothing grandiose. I don't want, what do you want your average Wednesday to look like? Oh, well, I want to win an Oscar and I want to become a number one New York Times bestselling author, whatever it is. Those things can happen, but that's not going to happen. Your average Wednesday, what if I'm taking my daughter to, she doesn't go to, we homeschool her, but we take her to this, and so what if I spend an hour reading to my daughter? What do I want my average Wednesday to look like? Is appreciably different from the giant peaks that we often see on the success roadmap? Michael Jamin: I mean, you're so grounded. You use the word yourself, grounding exercise, and yeah, I just have so much. First of all, I'm honored that I get this conversation because I don't know. I just think it's so interesting to hear you're a very successful, I think you can be measured as a successful person in many different ways, but obviously the most important one is your happiness quotient and what gives you peace and joy. Joshua Fields Millburn: And if I find myself chasing it, then I know that I'm, I've been misled or I've misled myself. Really, the happiness is out there. The joy is not out there. Everything else that we seek is already Michael Jamin: Here. It's almost like a spiritual journey you put yourself on. Joshua Fields Millburn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's really just identifying what enough is and letting go of anything that gets in the way of enough. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. Now, do you also though, now that you have a child, I don't know, do you also worry about that? Do you worry for her? Joshua Fields Millburn: No. No. I mean, because I know that she's going to go, just last week, this is timely, but her boyfriend, I mean, the boy she holds hands with occasionally, she's 10 years old, okay. And he called to break up with her, and he asked her, can we just be friends? This is her first boyfriend. I mean, I didn't want to correct her and be like, Hey, Ella, you know what? You were just friends. You Michael Jamin: Were just friends. Joshua Fields Millburn: I have a big problem if you weren't just friends at age 10. But anyway, and so she's going through all this heartache and instead of pathologizing it and saying, don't cry, yeah, I felt the heartache for her as well, but real joy, real peace makes room for that. I could still be at peace at it and experience those. So-called negative emotions. I can feel the sadness for her. And she looks up at me and she says, I'm so sad, and I don't even know why I'm sad. Why am I sad? And oh, my heart was just broken. And then instead of me preaching to her, she asked a question, and that opened up the door for conversation. And I was able to explain to her, well, we get sad or we get upset. We get angry, we get frustrated whenever our expectations of the world, our worldview doesn't map onto reality. And right now you want things to be one way and they are another way, and being sad isn't wrong or bad, you're going to experience this. And by the way, by her experiencing it, that's how she moves on from it. And she moved on so much quicker than I would have. And that's what the beautiful thing about kids. When you have a kid, you learn so much about letting go. She has far less to learn from me than I had to learn from her. Michael Jamin: But I sound very obviously very zen and very at balance. But when you were starting this minimalism journey to get the word out there to do these shows and book tours and all, there must've been disappointments along the way and would frustrated the hell out of you, or no, Joshua Fields Millburn: All the disappointments happened later way after the success. What Really? Absolutely, man, it was all just a beautiful accident early on. I remember the first time we had an amazing tour stop where it was 2012, December, 2012. This was our second tour. Yeah, we call it the Holiday Happiness Tour. We did 10 cities over the course of maybe three weeks, and us and Canada, just 10 major markets. And we had people actually show up to these. I remember we had 70 people show up in San Francisco, and we had maybe 25 people show up in Washington, DC and 40 people in Boston. And all of a sudden we had people who were actually showing up to these things. And then we had this event in Toronto. It was at this co-working space that we had. Someone found it for us. They let us use it for free, and we show up. And it was the first time I absolutely knew that, oh, our lives are going to be different after this. We showed up and there was another event going on. It totally blocked off our event. And this other event that was going on, there was all these people waiting to get in. I'm like, oh, they're totally going to screw up the small event that we have planned. And so I look at the organizer, her name was Melissa. I said, Melissa, what event are they here for? And she looked at me and she said, they're for you, dummy. And it was like a thousand people who showed up at this event. Michael Jamin: And this space was big enough to accommodate Joshua Fields Millburn: It? No, not at all. And they actually let us use the basement. And even then there were people, it was like sardines at a rock concert or something, and it was all gravy, man, I would've been just as thrilled if 15 people showed up that night, and it's easy to say as a Monday morning quarterback, but what happened is that started to build up these expectations in the future. Oh yeah, yeah. Now we need 2000 people to show up, whatever it is. And it's like, well, no. In fact, recently we just started doing these smaller events here in Los Angeles. We did five of them over the course of, I dunno, six months or so. We called them Sunday symposiums, and we made them intentionally small where only 200 people could show up. It was 200 seat theater downtown, and that was it. If you showed up for that, great. And every single one of 'em sold out. Let's do something intentionally small, and I'd love to do some events with 12 people, because to me, having the expectation totally ruins the thing. Whoever shows up shows up. If I need them to start showing up, Michael Jamin: Oh man, Joshua Fields Millburn: What's going to happen? Michael Jamin: So it was, once you hit that success, like you're saying, that's when you have disappointment, more expectations. So were there others? Man, this is just so interesting to me. So what do you do then, other than keep yourself in check? Because your natural inclination is to get more success, more followers, more fans and all that? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it was about identifying what enough is. But yeah, there'll be some disappointments along the way. There was this film series that were working on. Netflix actually encouraged it. And so I go to pitch them on it. I do all my own pitching. I don't have an agent do it. I just show up and I'll have them book the appointment, and it's just me in a room with whatever executives, and that's how it's worked. And then I show up and best pitch of my life. It went amazing. It was this project, a six part series, and it could not have gone better. The only way it could have gone better is they bought it in the room, which happens from time to time. I said, great, we'll get back to you next week. This is a Friday. And on Monday, my agent calls me, and this is a few years ago, and it was right when Netflix stock tanked. And he called me and he said, Hey, they let go of 75% of that team that you pitched, And so you're going to have to put this on hold for a while. And so that's what I've done. I set it on the shelf, and it's unfortunate because I've spent more money on that project and more time on that than I'd care to admit. But the real reward is an action, and this sounds like a cliche, but in doing the work, and if it gets out there, great. If not, I got to enjoy the process of it. It only becomes a punishment when I need a particular outcome. And as soon as I need that outcome, man, then it doesn't make room for any spontaneity. Imagine if you are in New York City and you need to drive to la, but then what if halfway there, some amazing opportunity happens in Seattle or in Bismarck, North Dakota? You're not allowed to do it now because I have to be in Los Angeles. But if I'm in New York and I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to drive West and see what happens. And that's really what this journey has been for us. Let's just kind of go that direction and see what happens. We might end up in la, but we also might end up in Fargo, and that's okay too. But Michael Jamin: Given that your history of these guys, of bootstrapping everything, why not just do this project yourself? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, and I think we probably will. It's just it'll change the dynamics of it. We needed some money to do the big theatrical, delightful, entertaining things that we were going to do. And so that's great. And we'll probably end up doing the project on our own anyway. It'll just change the way that it looks. And I'm totally fine with that. I'm not married to a particular mold. I'm always willing to let go of this, so I can pick that up. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I say that as well, that success doesn't really look like what you think it looks like. And so interesting that your pitch stories for Netflix. So I don't know. This has been such a, I don't know. I feel like this has been a good interview just for me to hear, just for me to hear. I need to convince of this stuff. And by the way, I've thrown, I went on a purge getting rid of stuff as well, but I always wonder, shouldn't I throw up more? Isn't there more I can get rid of? What do you do when you have to bring stuff? What do you do? I don't know. How do you decide what you're going to bring into your home? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, that is a simple question I asked, will this add value to my life? And I think we can only determine that truly if we've deprived ourselves for a period of time. I'm not a deprivation. I'm not an aesthetic. I don't live like a monk in a monastery. I certainly don't live like an aesthetic in a cave, but I will temporarily remove things from my life to see if I got any true value from those things. I wish there was a list I could hand you and say, here are the hundred things you should own, and then you'll be happy. That'd be great. And it'd be real simple. It'd be super easy too. Wow, here's the formula. But the truth is, the things that I've valued in my life, they might get in your way and vice versa. Michael Jamin: But do you feel like just looking around your house like, eh, I can get rid of this. Joshua Fields Millburn: Oh, I do it all the time. Yeah. My wife and I are constantly interrogating the things that we own, because the truth is something that added value yesterday may not add value tomorrow. Certainly some of that added value a decade ago may not add value today. You don't get down to those a hundred items or a thousand items or 10,000 items that you own, and now you're complete. No, it's continuing to interrogate those because, oh, yeah, I really enjoyed this during that chapter, but it's time to graduate. It's like when you left high school, you graduated from it. If not, you end up getting divorced from an item. You're like, oh, this is causing so much pain and misery. I want get rid of it. Why not just graduate when I'm done with it, I'm done with it. Michael Jamin: But is there ever a moment where six months later or a year or two years later, damn, I wish I had those shoes? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, no. Yeah, it doesn't really work that way. I mean, regret is usually the story that we tell ourselves about the way things could have been had I done something differently. But the truth is that I've gotten rid of all of my things. I even did an experiment once where I got rid of all of my favorite things, Michael Jamin: Really, Joshua Fields Millburn: Really difficult because I told myself, well, here's my favorite shirt, my favorite shoes, my favorite pair of pants. Someone asked me in an interview one time very early on, what's your favorite shirt? What's your favorite shoes? What's your favorite pair of pants? And I gave 'em the answer. And I said, but you know what? They're just my favorites. I say, they're my favorites. I can let go of anything. I can let go of these. And it was difficult because, oh, I really like that there's some sentimentality tied up in it. But letting go of that prove to me, I can let go of anything else that's in my closet. If I got rid of my favorite things, guess what happens? Something else steps up and becomes your favorite. And they're just material possessions. Oh, interesting. If I hold onto it, you know what? Then eventually it's no longer going to be my favorite. If I let it go in advance, then that's fine too. Michael Jamin: A couple of years ago, more than a couple of years ago, my father, my in-laws, lost their home in a fire, lost everything. And my mother-in-law's upset by it. My father-in-law's like, I'm free. He goes, I had never felt freer. Joshua Fields Millburn: Yes, our last book, love People Use Things, which we did through a big traditional publisher, which I don't think I would ever do again, by the way, Michael Jamin: Why? Go ahead. Why not? Joshua Fields Millburn: I'm just not good at working for people. Michael Jamin: Wait, you feel like you're working for them? You wrote a book and you feel like you're working for them? Joshua Fields Millburn: I just feel like subordinating myself to their ideas. And I think that industry, while it makes sense for some people, doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me. Ironically, it was our least selling book, even though it was a New York Times bestselling book, it was by far our least selling book, orders of magnitude less Michael Jamin: Really? Joshua Fields Millburn: Not even close. Michael Jamin: Because you think they changed the content so much that it didn't resonate anymore? Joshua Fields Millburn: No. I mean, I think it's probably our best, technically best written book, technically. But when you do that, I think sometimes you can remove the heart from it. And I also think that I subordinated myself to them. They must know best how to publish this thing. And the truth is, no. I know best how to get my stuff. I intuitively know best what resonates with people, and I've learned what resonates because I've spent time in the trenches. I mean, this is the only thing that I've done for the last, I've done it for 12, 13 years now, and I'm connecting with people every day, and I figure out what resonates. I know what resonates with them. And someone in an ivory tower who is really smart and has the best of intentions, they may not know what's going to resonate with an audience the way that I do. Michael Jamin: I'm so happy you said that, but is it also the marketing? Was it because they didn't really market it the way you could market it, or? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, eventually I had to hire my own publicist to go out and market the book Michael Jamin: Right out of your own pocket, of course. Joshua Fields Millburn: And it's like, well, I had already did that with my own stuff. When I started Independently Publishing, started my own publishing company. I can do that on my own. Now. They do a good job of distribution and stuff, but let's be honest here, what's the real distribution? Do I need my book to be in Target? Michael Jamin: Dude, you were just listening to my conversation. I did a podcast yesterday. I said the same exact thing. I said, it's Barnes and Noble. Well, a lot of people don't even go to Barnes and Noble. They get their books online. So what difference is it? Do I need my book in Target? Joshua Fields Millburn: I mean, I can get books in Barnes and Noble. That's pretty easy. You can get books in Target. It's a little bit more difficult. You can do that stuff on your own as well. It is not as easy as having someone else do it for you. But guess what? The lesson I learned from this is having someone else do it for me means it won't be done the way that I want it done. Michael Jamin: But what is the difference between, you said this earlier, between starting your own publishing company and indie publishing on your own. What are the differences, really? Joshua Fields Millburn: I'm not sure I follow the question. The difference between Michael Jamin: What, well, you said you started your own independent publishing company. Yeah. What's the difference between that and self-publishing on a platform? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. Yeah. So the biggest difference I think is quality control. When you think about an indie band versus a garage band, the garage band's having fun and it's great. And you could even record that music. And it's not meant for a mainstream release to the public. It's maybe not even meant to be consumed by the public necessarily, maybe for a small group of friends or something like that. But it's a waste of time. If you filled up a theater and you put a jam band up on stage, most people aren't going to get the same amount of value they would from a really solid indie band. I mean, I think the pinnacle of that is someone like Radiohead who has all of the quality control of a major label, but they do things independently now. But you have so many other artists. I have a bunch of friends like my friend Griffin House or Matt Nathanson, who makes really great songs independently. They don't require a major label, but all of the quality control is there, the distribution, the editing, the mixing, the mastering. And so we have a whole, you're not Michael Jamin: Actually printing it yourself. In other words, you're still using a platform to print it, but you're just, when you say quality control, you mean of the written word quality control? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. I mean, all the above. We've done both. We've done printing of our own books, but also, yeah, the tools are out there now that you can do print on demand, and how awesome is that as a tool? But the quality control in terms of like, okay, let's hire an actual editor. Let's have a cover designer. Let's have someone do actual typeface layout, so you're not doing it on your own. Someone who knows what they're doing professional to do this. Let's do proof readers and Alpha readers and beta readers having an actual quality control process as opposed to like, oh, you know what? I whip this up in Word. I'll get my buddy to look at it, and once he's looked at it, then I'm just going to throw it up on Amazon. No, let's go through the same process that a major publishing company would go through. Why can't we do that on our own? You realize that, oh, wait, I can do it on my Michael Jamin: Own. You can do it on, were you finding when you were working, when you did, and I'm keeping you along, and I promise, and I really appreciate all this. Every time you ask you say something, I'll have one more question, but I won't take you much longer. But do you find when you're dealing with these publishers and you're getting notes, part of me feels like they're just frustrated writers. They wish they were you. In other words, do you find that or no? Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I have, but that's probably just me projecting some of my own insecurities onto them. Right, because all writers are frustrated writers. Ultimately. Stephen King's a frustrated writer. Michael Jamin: Yes, I agree with that. Joshua Fields Millburn: John Grisham is a frustrated writer, and I think this genders pretty significantly too. Strangely, most of my audience are women, and that was unintentional. But I found that when I talk to women writers, there's a lot more joy and happiness and contentment there. When I talk to male writers, a lot of it is just frustration and pulling one's hair out or trying to put one's head through a wall. Yeah, I've found that for whatever reason, and that's not a heuristic that I would live by. I mean, it's not that all women writers are joyous, and all male writers are miserable, but it does seem to slope that way. Michael Jamin: So interesting. For what it's worth, and one of the reasons for what it's worth, so I am a TV writer. I've worked for the studios all my entire career, and I said recently, and people are surprised when I say this, that I don't write what I want to write. I wrote what people pay me to write, and there's a big difference. So when I want to write something on my own, I do it on my own with no expectations. But yeah, it's a job. So I got to take the notes. That's right. Joshua Fields Millburn: The publishing process with a major publisher was similar in that. Also, I don't generally do deadlines, and that was one of the worst things ever happened to me was to have a deadline. I know some people's really helpful for them. For me, it's crippling and anxiety producing, and it strips all the joy out. I love writing. I write every day. But if you sit me down and say, you have to write, I'm like, oh, what do you mean? I have to. That's why I never did well in school. You're being told to read something or told to write something or told to do something. I just don't like that. Michael Jamin: And is it mostly nonfiction, though? You're writing now, now, Joshua Fields Millburn: Yeah. Yeah, for the most part. Michael Jamin: Yeah. So interesting. Joshua, I'm so appreciative of you lending me all this time and just getting to know all about your story here. Honestly, I want everyone to go check out the minimalist, go to their website, check out, watch their, one of the most important things you'll watch is how getting rid of stuff will make you feel freer and you'll feel richer in the process. Go check 'em out. I can't thank you enough for joining me here. Is there any other advice you have? Any parting words that last words Joshua Fields Millburn: Love people and use things. The opposite. Never works. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Wonderful. Joshua, thank you so much everyone, and thank you for joining me. What a great conversation. Michael Jamin: So now we all know what the hell Michael Jam's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/ webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter, and you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have TikToker and EMT Jack Raia. Tune in as we talk about how he uses his content to help educate people in health care. We also talk about how he balances making sure his content doesn’t take away from the potential severity of health situations. Show Notes Jack Raia on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsgood24.7.365 Jack Raia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WhatsGood24-7 Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter Autogenerated Transcript Jack Raia: Cameras and healthcare tend to not really mix very well, especially when it comes to me just running around my cell phone camera. So that's definitely been a major roadblock in kind of the day of life kind of stuff Michael Jamin: You're listening to. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Michael Jamin: Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of my show, which I've rebranded as the Michael Jamon Show, because I want to make sure that there's more me in every mention of the show. And as you know, mostly I've spoken about, I've interviewed screenwriters, people, I've worked with directors, actors, and now after doing this for two years, I want to open it up to more people. We're just doing interesting things and there's a whole universe I don't know about, and so I'm learning about, and my next guest is going to teach us a little about that. His name is Jack Raya. He's the host of What's Good, 2, 4, 7. He's a big talker, so we're going to learn all about that. Jack, welcome. Thank you for joining me. Jack Raia: Thanks for having me on, Michael. I really appreciate the opportunity. Michael Jamin: Yeah. So let me tell everyone a little about you. So as far as I can tell, maybe I'm wrong, you're an EMT, you're in New York, right? Where in New York are you? Jack Raia: I'm on Long Island in Nas County, long Island. Michael Jamin: Interesting. My nephew's an E, he's a paramedic, actually. So I know a little about that word world, but you started, you have a very popular channel on TikTok where basically you act out, for the most part, you kind of act out scenes of what it's like to be an EMT. Am I right? Jack Raia: Yeah. Yeah. I categorized it as EMS, sketch comedy, I guess is what I've labeled it. Michael Jamin: And then what inspired you to start all this? Jack Raia: So it was honestly a series of coincidences that got me into TikTok. The first instance was back in the summer of 2020, a friend of mine just posted a random video on TikTok, and it was this new app that I wasn't even on yet. It was kind of labeled the app that's just for middle school girls to do dances on. Right. No one really knew what it was yet. Michael Jamin: That's exactly right. That's what I thought it was. Yeah, right. Jack Raia: So my buddy posted a video, it was lighting off fireworks or something dumb, and the video blew up. The algorithm just picked it up, and it ended up getting a couple million, I think over 3 million views or something like that. And my buddy had zero followers on TikTok. So that was the first instance of like, wow, this whole algorithm base for you page is like, holy crap, I guess it works. So then that summer I was like, all right, well, I guess I'll give it a shot. So I was the captain lifeguard at the time, and because of Covid that summer, we had to figure out a way to test the rookie lifeguards, drill them on saves without making physical contact, which is a little bit strange, but it's the way it ended up working. So I came up with the idea of having them save traffic cones. I was throwing traffic cones into the deep end, and I posted a video of one of those drills, and it blew up just like my buddies did. So I went from zero followers and zero views to 6 million something views and 11,000 followers. So that was the first instance of like, wow, this level of attention is so easy and addicting that I think I'm going to give this app a little bit of a shot. But Michael Jamin: Do you have other aspirations? I mean, you got a real job, you have a career. Jack Raia: Oh, yeah, of course. But given how I discovered the algorithm, I was like, you know what? Maybe I can do some other stuff on here. So I was experimenting with a bunch of different types of videos and characters. I used to do an Eminem character, like the rapper, Eminem Burns his finger on the stove, just a bunch of crap that I was just making in my free time. But then that following school year, a buddy of mine started doing these POV style skits, which was, I hadn't had any exposure to until I saw it on TikTok. So my buddy started doing APOV frat guy comes up to you at the bar, or POV, your Italian dad, or something like that. And at first we were like, dude, what are you doing? It's an app for just posting random crap and doing other stuff. Why are you putting yourself on there like that? But he just didn't care, and he just kept making his videos, trying to make each one better than the last. And I watched my friend one day, he had 10,000 followers and 50, a hundred, and now he's got over a million, and he moved out to la Oh, wow. And he really did it. So I watched him just not care what other people were thinking and just be consistent. And I was like, all right, well, maybe I could do this whole POB skip thing. Michael Jamin: But your friend wants to be an actor, right? Jack Raia: Yeah. Right. Michael Jamin: Do you want to act as well? Jack Raia: I mean, I would love the opportunity, definitely. My first love is definitely being an EMT and working in the S field. I have a private ambulance company job on Long Island nine one system, and I also work for an event staffing company that does everything from fashion shows to concerts to music festivals and stuff like that. So I really love doing that stuff, but I've realized through all these coincidences how lucrative social media especially TikTok can be. So I guess that's really all culminated to what I'm really doing here. Michael Jamin: Well, tell me then, how do you monetize on TikTok? Jack Raia: The main way is you build up enough of an audience to get brand deals. That's the way that pays the most, at least for most people. Michael Jamin: Are you doing that? Jack Raia: Yeah. Yeah. So the most recent, I guess notable one I had was for a video game company called Supercell that makes an iPhone game called Clash of Clans. So actually, they posted a contract through the app. So there's a creator marketplace on TikTok, and you can see different companies and scroll through and see they're offering different rates for different videos. And so I applied for this one through Supercell, and the objective was to use one of their sounds, which TikTok is pretty popular for. So when you open their app, clash of Clans, there's a pretty distinct sound that you're opening the game. So I just kind of figured I could work it humorously into an EMT skit, and it ended up doing really well. Michael Jamin: Now are they giving you a lot of notes? Do you have to go back and forth and tell 'em what your ideas? Jack Raia: It really depends. Every company has different wants and specifications when it comes to doing the brand deals. Some are super relaxed and they let the creator just like, Hey, do your thing, we trust you. But some others are like to nitpick and stuff like that. Michael Jamin: But you must be worried you, you can't do that a lot because then suddenly you're the commercial channel. Right? Jack Raia: Exactly. So you kind of got to pick and choose which ones you want to do and when there are other avenues though, the Creator fund is something I get questions about a lot. So based on the certain amount of views you get, it'll pay out a couple cents per thousand views or something like that. Michael Jamin: Are you doing that as well? Jack Raia: So they just changed it actually. They just released a beta program where now there's a much higher payout rate for videos that are over one minute long. So I'm kind of screwed because a lot of my videos are 30 to 50 seconds long, so I could try to stretch 'em out, but I feel like the quality of the video might take a hit at that point. But there's some people out there that they have a hundred thousand followers or something like that, and it's just them spewing their thoughts out into TikTok, and they post four or five times a day of them just talking or giving their opinion on stuff. And all these videos are minute, two minutes long, and there's people making 10, $15,000 a month off just this new beta creator program. Now, Michael Jamin: Do you think it limits your reach, though, if you're on? Jack Raia: So I think it has to honestly, and I'm confident in saying that TikTok is the least predictable social media platform out there. We're all at the mercy of the algorithm here, and it seems to be pretty random and definitely hard to predict. So some stuff happens to blow up, some stuff doesn't. I'll be super confident in a video that I make, and I'll be excited to post it, and it'll flop in comparison to other videos where sometimes I'll just post for the sake of consistency and just get in content out and, oh, crap, this one just blew up. All right. Michael Jamin: What is your schedule? How often do you post? Jack Raia: So when I started and I was really trying to give it a go, I was super adamant about sticking to one a day. No matter what, I don't care if I love the video, I just have to force people to see me every single day when I was really trying to grow. So the quantity over quality method works pretty well when you're trying to start out, but now I'm at the point where I try to be more selective and I try to make sure that video is up to standard, if you will. So I don't really stick to a hard schedule. It's more if I have a good idea and it comes to me and I'm able to flesh it out and I have an opportunity to film it, then great. But if I don't, it's like, ah, didn't get one today. Michael Jamin: And then how long do you spend on each idea? Do you write it down? What's your Jack Raia: Pre-production? Right. So my particular, I guess, strategy is 95% of what you hear me say on TikTok has been written down. At a certain point as I go through it, maybe stuff gets switched around or whatever, but the general premise, and I guess the pacing of the skid is totally all written down and stuff like that. A big part of my production is actually my little brother who's my cameraman, and He's got a real knack behind the lens. I like to tell him he's, he's good at being able to keep me in frame the right way, which all of my videos have that banner title over the top. So sometimes we have to restart because my head clips into it too much and stuff like that. But other than that, it's just me and an iPhone camera. TikTok has given us the ability, or really social media in general to create content that can have a wide reach with not really a lot of equipment. So super grateful for that. Michael Jamin: On a given day, how much time do you devote to a video? Jack Raia: Sometimes Michael Jamin: Zero, writing it, producing it, and then posting it? Jack Raia: Well, I've definitely gotten faster at it. So when I would start the whole process, start to finish from writing the script to getting that final take, putting a filter on it and posting it be up to two hours, sometimes in the beginning, an hour or two hours easily. But now, if I have a good seed to build a skid around, whether it's a good punchline or a premise that I like, that I can kind of mold the rest of the video around, once I get that down, the whole filming process, 15, 20 minutes for me now, sometimes 30 minutes, depending on where I am, I live next to the train tracks. So when a train goes by, it'll totally ruin my take. Or sometimes I got to wait for the neighbor to stop mowing his lawn and stuff like that. But when I'm able to just film at the pace, I'd like to film probably about 20, 30 minutes to do the filming now as opposed to an hour before. Michael Jamin: Right. That's so interesting. And then how has this benefited you in ways that were unexpected? What has come from this? Jack Raia: So by far, it's the amount of people that'll reach out to me through Instagram dms, or even in my comments section, telling me that my content has inspired them to take an EMT course. Oh, wow, okay. I've even had some pretty moving conversations with people where it's like, Hey, man, just got off the truck after 24 hours. Thanks for bringing me a smile. It's nice to be seen, is what people have told me. Nice to be seen shedding a little bit of light and humor on some of the grittier sides of the EMS world. So people have noticed that, and I'm like, wow, I didn't even really mean to have an impact on people like that, but I have been. So that's been really, really cool to do. Michael Jamin: Well, I think people love e mt workers. I mean, you're there to save lives. Jack Raia: It's kind of hard to hate on sometimes. Yeah. Michael Jamin: But okay, but do you get haters? You must, oh yeah, of Jack Raia: Course, of course. Michael Jamin: And how does that affect you, and what do you do about it? Jack Raia: So I'm thankfully at the point now where I have a large enough audience where if someone leaves me a hate comment, someone that likes my content or is following me will go to bat for me in the comment section. I definitely don't entertain trying to argue with people in the comments or dms or stuff like that Michael Jamin: That, do you block them or no, Jack Raia: Not really, honestly, because not really. Sometimes getting a little bit of controversy in the comments and people arguing back and forth on each other can be good for engagement, unfortunately. But I've come to realize that no matter what kind of content you're creating, and no matter how good you are at it, there's people that are going to have negative things to say, people crap talk. Everyone from Tom Brady to the best comedians in the world, the best musicians, best artists, writers, it doesn't matter. You're going to get hate if you're putting yourself out there. People like to spread negativity for some reason. So it's just part of what comes with being, putting yourself out on the internet. So I don't really let it get to me too much. Michael Jamin: That's it. But it's interesting that you don't block them. You might be more mature than I'm sometimes I just don't want to hear it. Just, oh, goodbye, goodbye. I don't want to look at the negativity. Jack Raia: Thankfully, I don't get too much. I definitely got a little bit more in the beginning than I do now, and I know TikTok is pretty good at censoring a lot of stuff sometimes too good. Honestly, I've left comments that were meant to be positive on other people's pages, but it'll get flagged for being negative or insulting or something like that. So a certain percentage of negative comments won't even show up. I won't even know that they're there. But the ones that I do get, it's like, it's just part of it. It's like you got to take the good with the bad a little bit. Some of them are funny, honestly, some of them are pretty clever. Michael Jamin: You respond to, it sounds like you respond to a lot of people. Do you respond, even kind comments, you respond to them, everyone? Jack Raia: Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely less responsive in my comment section than I am for my dms. If someone wants to reach out to me on Instagram and personally message me, I'm grateful for every time someone takes the time to reach out to me. I think it's crazy that people resonate with enough with what I'm creating to send me a message. I think that's crazy. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Interesting. Jack Raia: If you take the time to message me, I'll totally answer. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to Michael Jamin: What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Here's a question I tend to ask people who are creators. Do you notice a difference between the kind of people commenting on TikTok versus let's say YouTube or Instagram? Jack Raia: A hundred percent. There's almost like a generational gap between something like Instagram or TikTok. TikTok seems to be like the 25 and under Instagram seems to be the 18 to 35 or older. So the difference in humor and the difference in memes on each page is definitely different. And it's interesting that I'll post something on TikTok, it'll do well or comparatively will do well. And then once I load it into Instagram and I have that kind of Instagram mindset and that feel for that audience, I almost hesitate a little bit. I know that it's going to be perceived totally differently. There's a certain level of, I guess, being corny on TikTok that is being intentionally corny. They see the sarcasm in it, so it works on TikTok, but it doesn't come across that way on Instagram. So Instagram, it's just a different way that people view it. It's kind of strange, honestly. Michael Jamin: And what about YouTube? Jack Raia: So YouTube, I do put my stuff on there, but I don't really have enough of an audience on there to really get much engagement. I have two vlogs on there. I've made an attempt at the long form content, but it doesn't really compare to what I'm doing on TikTok and Instagram right now. I'd love to get my YouTube audience up in the numbers these days, but the only real comparisons I can make is TikTok, Instagram and Facebook are kind of the Holy Trinity of where I post my stuff and what I can Michael Jamin: Describe as well. Now, was it difficult at first putting yourself out there? Was that hard for you? I know you were inspired by your friend, but still, Jack Raia: It's crazy you say that because I look back at some of those older videos that I was making, and I have no idea how I had the balls to do that. I look at it now and I'm like, what was I thinking? How did I not care? I just kind of didn't, and I was kind of just enamored by seeing other people blow up on the app, especially my friend, and I was like, you know what? Screw it. Who caress? Michael Jamin: And how long have you been doing this now? Jack Raia: So the first time I ever posted on the app was summer of 2020. The first time I ever really tried to make POV skits and succeed that way was December, 2021, about a year and a half coming up on two years now. But it wasn't until last summer that I realized that this EMT character was what I was really going to try to stick with. So the whole Michael Jamin: Isn't that interesting that you naturally found your voice just by doing it over it? People struggle with that, and I kind of say the same. Just do something every day, and then you'll find your way, you'll find your voice. You'll just know what works and what doesn't work. Jack Raia: I used to be super adamant about rotating my characters. I had success with a bartender character in the past and a bouncer. I've done a teacher, a lifeguard, a whole bunch of different stuff. And I used to be pretty adamant about, okay, I did my Gen Z cop today, so tomorrow I'm going to do the Gen Z professor, and then I'll do the lifeguard, and then I'll circle back around to the EMT character. But I got to a point where the only one that I really enjoyed doing and the one that I was the most motivated to create was the EMT character. Well, Michael Jamin: Because that's the most authentic, that's who you are. Jack Raia: Exactly. Right. Michael Jamin: Yeah. You're playing a role, Jack Raia: And I discovered how valuable it was to really focus in on a niche instead of doing this myriad of characters just being kind of labeled as that e mt guy on TikTok was pretty valuable to Michael Jamin: How much of yourself, because you're doing sketches, and so this is a character that you've created. The character is based on yourself, but it's still a character, and you're still not showing all of us. You're not showing all of yourself. Right. And so what's the line and how did you decide on that line? Jack Raia: I am someone that I found it much easier to play a character online than it was to naturally talk to the camera and stuff like that, which is definitely the opposite for other people. There's creators 2, 3, 10 times my size where they just hit record talk to the camera, and they have this big, beautiful, successful video. But I don't know, when it comes to my, I guess, authentic personality and putting it on TikTok, I kind of spin my tires in that regard. Michael Jamin: Is it not comfortable for you or you don't want to? Jack Raia: I dunno. When I go to try to do some authentic stuff like that, I don't even know what to talk about. I have no real inspiration on what the video should be about when it comes to these TikTok skits, I'll have that joke or that punchline. I'm like, oh, that's good. And then I can craft a video around it, and then I'm excited to film it. So I'm definitely not opposed to being authentic and showing my real personality on camera. I just don't really know what it would really do or be about. So maybe one day, but Michael Jamin: Yeah, so interesting. And then, okay, so you mentioned that you're into, you would think about acting. You don't want to move to la. You're not that serious about it. You're open to it. Jack Raia: Right. So the way I see it, I live in Long Island by train. I'm less than an hour outside of Manhattan. So any sort of opportunities in the entertainment industry, I feel like I could probably pursue in New York if they were to come about. But the idea of moving to LA and trying to jump with both feet into Hollywood, I guess, doesn't have as much as appeal to me as it does. Kind of just making my videos, working on the ambulance, working at a concert. I'm kind of liking what I'm doing instead of really trying to jump into one or the other. Michael Jamin: I appreciate that. I mean, you're doing this to me. It seems like you have, it's the purest form, excuse me, purest form of expression. You're doing this, you want to be creative. This is your outlet. Jack Raia: And the honest truth is I like being a content creator, but I love being an EMT. It's honestly, the unfortunate reality is that if I could make as much as a content creator as an EMT, I probably wouldn't be doing much of the content creator stuff. Obviously, like I said before, the attention super addicting and it's fun to get recognized and stuff like that. But if I could flip the payrolls, I would, Michael Jamin: Well, let me ask you this. Why not do more actual day in the life where you got the camera, you're behind the wheel, the ambulance or whatever? Is it because you're not allowed to Jack Raia: Sort of? So I've done a little bit of that. I've able to, like I said, I have some vlogs on YouTube where I'm vlogging the work that I do as an EMT, but it's definitely much harder to do than if you were to do it with other jobs, with everything from HIPAA violations to if I were to deviate even one second or one minutia of my brain power to my phone or something like that while I'm in the ambulance at all, it's just not something you really want to get involved Michael Jamin: With. Yeah, I could see that. I mean, other than maybe cleaning the ambulance when it's parked Jack Raia: Station, right? Yeah, no, no, no. I can see that. But cameras and healthcare tend to not really mix very well, especially when it comes to me just running around my cell phone camera. So that's definitely been a major roadblock in kind of the day of life kind of stuff. Michael Jamin: Yeah, I can see that. I guess it's a naive question now that I ask that. Yeah, Jack Raia: Yeah. But I've had some success, so it's not like it's impossible, but its definitely more difficult. So it's not really that much of a priority for me. Michael Jamin: Creative. Are there creators or even famous people whose work you admire you were trying to emulate in your work? Jack Raia: Yeah. I mean, there's other EMT creators or EMS creators or even just healthcare workers in general that create content on the app that I really like. One of 'em is the name's Fire department Chronicles. He's a bald dude that makes firefighter skits and he's the best in the business. He kills them. Michael Jamin: Are you going to clap with him or no? Jack Raia: I mean, maybe one day. I haven't really Michael Jamin: Reached out to him that Okay, you don't know each other. Okay. It's great. Jack Raia: He's got millions and millions of Michael Jamin: Followers. Well, you're getting up there. You're getting close to a million. Jack Raia: Hopefully. I like to think I'm on my way. It Michael Jamin: Looks that way. Sure. And then you also sell merch. Are people buying? Are the people digging you? Jack Raia: Yeah, a little bit. It's a work in progress. This is one of the shirts. It's just bankrupt the funeral home. So it's kind of a humorous situation where it's like, imagine if healthcare workers could do their job so impossibly well that no one was dying. So the funeral home is like, oh crap, we're out of customers here. We can't really afford to keep the lights on anymore. It's kind of, yeah, Michael Jamin: It's a good message you got. It's positive. And I really admire you for putting yourself out there for just showing up. A lot of people are afraid to do that. Jack Raia: Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you saying that. My goal is to do something greater for the emergency services community down the road. I'm making a couple bucks off each T-shirt here now, but I have plans to really increase it. I'm collabing with a much larger Instagram page soon. So we want to sell everything from hats, patches, stickers, t-shirts, bags, everything under the sun, donate a portion of each sale, and really try to give back to the community that's given me this platform is definitely a goal of mine. Michael Jamin: Well, I imagine you're becoming the face, you're becoming the face of EMT workers, at least in your area. I can only see good things coming from that in terms of raising your profile in the industry. Jack Raia: Yeah. I'll have to agree with you there, for sure. Yeah. Michael Jamin: Have others reached out to you? Other people in your line of work reached out to you and say, Hey, good for you for doing this? Or how do they react? Yeah, Jack Raia: Yeah. I get a lot of really positive messages from other creators and just from other, Hey, I'm an EMT and wherever, wherever I really like your videos, man. One message that sticks out to me in particular was, it's probably last summer I got a message and it was, Hey, I'm an EMT instructor out of Iowa. My class loves your videos. We watch your videos as an icebreaker every morning before class. Holy crap. Really? The whole class. Michael Jamin: That's really nice. Jack Raia: That's when it really started to hit me that I'm really impacting other EMTs and paramedic stuff in here. I was like, wow, there's some real serious reach here. Michael Jamin: Yeah. People don't realize that what you do actually makes a difference in some people's lives. It really does. Jack Raia: And with that, there's definitely a little bit of responsibility. There's two aspects of my content that I'm kind of trying to clean up in the future a little bit. One of them being is the disheveled kind of inappropriate nature that my character exhibits a lot of the time, showing up with his boots untied, still tucking in his shirt, which kind of happens due to the nature of the job. Maybe you're on a 24 hour shift, you just woke up, you're drinking Red Bulls or doing whatever and would hate for that to influence a new or future EMT. I would hate for them to think that it's okay to do that because of the nature of the job. Michael Jamin: When did you come to that realization now? Jack Raia: Pretty recently. So I've started putting, or I've went back and put disclaimers on a lot of my videos. It does not represent correct practice. I'll have people nitpick what I'm doing in the comments and stuff and it hit me. It's like it is important to, obviously it's a comedy skip, but it is important to note like, Hey, this is not the way you're supposed to be doing things. I'm over here trying to make a couple people laugh. This is in no way, shape or form the way that you're supposed to conduct yourself. Michael Jamin: That's an interesting realization that you're doing this for fun. And then you realized at some point you had a responsibility Jack Raia: Exactly Michael Jamin: To the world really to not just to your coworkers, but in your profession, but to the world, which I don't think not everyone comes to that realization. Yeah, I wish more people did because what you put out there is important and Jack Raia: It will affect people, whether it's subconsciously or directly. It will start to influence the way people see this job. And that goes for whatever kind of content you're making. Another aspect that I'm going to try to clean up in the future is I don't want to deter people from calling 9 1 1 because they think they might get this EMT that comes in with attitude and doesn't want to be there and stuff like that. Some of the videos I make, I'll be coming through that front door and I'm just like, oh, this is a bull crap. Call my kind of rolling my eyes and I'm making jokes about the lack of severity of the situation and I would hate for someone to see one of my videos and think twice about calling 9 1 1. So it's definitely some stuff that I'm going to address in the future, but I feel like I'm ahead of the curve hopefully, so that it hasn't really gotten too far yet where there might be some crazy instance or something like that. But it's definitely something that's on my radar to kind of address. Michael Jamin: Where do you think most of your followers are they being in the United States? I mean, I would assume, Jack Raia: Honestly, I'm not sure. I can check my analytics and it can tell me where people are from. The most recent time I checked my most followed city was Chicago, coincidentally enough. So it was like Chicago, Phoenix, Austin, New York wasn't even really up there. Michael Jamin: Isn't that interesting? Jack Raia: Yeah. But there's definitely a lot of local people that have recognized me. When I started at my private ambulance company in February of this year and my first ride along, I showed up, I walked into the building and put my stuff down and immediately went on a call with of my field training officers. So obviously we're kind of in call mode, right? But once we transferred our patient care and everything like that, my FTO was like, you, that guy. I was like, probably. I'm probably the one you're thinking of. Michael Jamin: Yeah. How funny. That must have been. Nice. So before we wrap up, I don't know, I'm very impressed by what you're putting out there, by what you're doing. You're simply a standup guy. What other advice do you give people who I don't know, who are interested in doing what you're doing? What else do you have to offer them? Jack Raia: I think that consistency is probably the most important aspect of trying to be any type of a creator. Whether you're writing a blog, making POV skits or making music, anything like that. Kind of just forcing people to be exposed to your content through you just keep making it and posting it is probably the most important aspect. And if you can do that and just make an effort to make each one a little bit better than the last, it will start to compound. Michael Jamin: And by consistency you mean once a day or what? Jack Raia: It depends, honestly. So with me, it worked once a day. Back in the winter of 2021, I had a winter break from school, so I was like, you know what? I got nothing to do this break, but watch the Sopranos and make TikTok. So no matter what I'm doing, I'm going to make a TikTok every day. I don't care if I love it, I hate it, I'm going to post it. So that was that first little spike in followers that I got and I was like, this can probably work. I think I got it down here. But Michael Jamin: I think it's great that you're really, that you're sharing your profession, you're making it light, you're trying to entertain people and you're doing a little something, but you're raising your profile. I see just good things, good things coming from it. Jack Raia: Yeah. I really appreciate it. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you for joining me again. I really appreciate it learning your story. My pleasure. Very interesting. Everyone go check out Jack, Jack Raya, his channel's called What's good, 2 4 7 24 7. That's me on TikTok. I imagine that's your same handle on Instagram and Facebook. Yeah, that's it. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Jack. Really good for you. Congratulations. Jack Raia: Absolutely. We'll have to do this again sometimes. Thank you. Michael Jamin: Yeah, good stuff. Alright everyone, that was an interesting talk with an EMT Jack. We'll check him out on TikTok. Alright everyone, until next week, I got to think of a better tagline. You used to say, keep writing, I'll think of something else. Keep bullshitting. Alright everyone, thanks so Jack Raia: Much. Michael Jamin: So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode we have Scott Reeder who is a Prop Master for film and TV. Some of the projects he has worked on have been "Pitch Perfect", "American Crime", "Walker" and many many more. Tune in as he talks about how he comes up with ideas for props that are needed for filming as well as going viral on Tiktok and how he deals with it. Show Notes Scott Reeder on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/scottpropandroll/ Scott Reeder on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1048397/ Scott Reeder on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@scottpropandroll Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/ Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist Autogenerated Transcript Scott Reeder: Well, part of it, I felt like a little bit of imposter syndrome. Like, well, what? I don't really deserve these accolades because I'm just doing, I'm just not doing anything that great. I didn't think, and I was like, well, how can I keep this up? I'm going to run out of stuff to talk about. Michael Jamin: Yes, Scott Reeder: But I've been able to just, I just keep going. I've always come up with, so you're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Michael Jamin: Okay. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to the Michael Jamin Jam. Today I'm jamming with Mr. Scott Reeder, and who the hell is he? I'll tell you who he is. This guy is a prop master on a bunch of movies and TV shows, and I don't know him personally, but I've been following him for a very long time, and he's actually also a talker. So Scott, I'm so inspired by what you do, and I'm opening up my podcast. I'm spending the next couple of sessions talking to, I usually talk about screenwriters and I interview TV writers and people like that, but I also want to open up to people who are doing interesting creative things and social media, and you are for sure one of them. So thank you for coming on my show, dude. Scott Reeder: Oh, thanks for having me. Michael Jamin: I'm excited. I'm excited too, because I've worked obviously with a lot of prop masters and you post a lot on social media, and honestly, I don't know, 99% of what you do. I'm like, oh, that's how they do it. I have no idea you guys are magicians, because to be truthful, I'm not supposed to notice what you guys do. That's the whole point. When you bring a prop on set, I'm not supposed to see if it's a gag or a gimmick or anything. It's supposed to look real. So I just said, oh, that must be real, and you expose on your TikTok channel how all this is done. It is absolutely fascinating. Everything you put out, Scott Reeder: Well, it could be a scene in a burger joint with a guy taking one bite out of a burger, and I would've to have like 30 hamburgers. So it's those little things no one thinks about, Michael Jamin: But there's also a crossover a lot of people don't think about is what you do, what set decoration does. There's a whole, okay, for example, if you have a scene and the horse is on set and a horse takes a dump, that set deck, or is that props Scott Reeder: Nowadays? I believe the animal Wrangler would probably do it. Michael Jamin: There's arguing over set over who's going to do that, right? Scott Reeder: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. There's always, well, I mean, not always arguing, but what I try to do is when I do my breakdown of a script is make contact with everyone involved with every gag or every scene and make sure, okay, am I doing this or you? And that's typically what I say it up to them and say, do you want me to do this? I'm totally cool with doing it, and that's the way I'm not coming off. I'm trying to Michael Jamin: It Scott Reeder: Off. Right, Michael Jamin: Not keep your head, but now, how did you get in? Because you've done, I should run through some of your credits. I'll just go through a you pitch. Perfect. Walker, Texas Ranger, machete, machete, machete. You've some great, the list goes on and on. How did you get into this and why? Scott Reeder: Well, I always wanted to work in media and communications of some sort. Oh, gosh. I'll try to keep it brief. I was going to the University of North Texas in 19 88, 89, and there happened to be a movie filming in town. It was called Daddy's Dying, who's got the will written by a playwright named Dale Shores, Starred Beau Bridges, Beverly DeAngelo, and I found out that there were filming at a hospital. I just showed up. But yeah, I just started picking up trash on set and working as the lowest rung non-paid production assistant. It was 1989, so it was a long time ago, and then I, it's all about networking. It's all about getting your foot in the door. Then I interned at a film at the North Texas Film Commission, which was great because we'd get scripts from producers they wanted, and I got to read 'em early on in the process. I was the guy that would go out and take pictures of, it could be a prison or restaurants, just locations to try to draw producers into our neck of the woods. Michael Jamin: Interesting. Scott Reeder: Yeah, so that's how I kind of got my start. Michael Jamin: So tell me, when you start doing props and you have to make whatever puke or you have come up with all sorts of inventive ways, especially with food, to make something look so it doesn't melt or it doesn't go bad, or you did something with a stick of butter yesterday, you had fake butter, so it doesn't melt onset. How do you come up with this? How do you're like a magician? How do you come up with these, basically you're an inventor. How do you invent all these things to make it look like butter or whatever? Scott Reeder: Well, we break down the script. We come up with, we get with every episode, we will have, as you know, you have directors meeting and typically the writers are involved on that and all the concept, and then I know what they're expecting of me, and I'll go from there and I'll just call around. I've got a lot of connections, a lot of friends that if I haven't jumped that particular hurdle, I have friends that have. So that's just kind of how, Michael Jamin: Really, okay, so it's word of mouth. How do you, that's it. Then Scott Reeder: If I were in LA I would be hiring a food stylist, Michael Jamin: But Scott Reeder: There's not enough. There may, there are some commercial food stylists in Dallas. I'm in Austin. There really aren't many people here for that. So we have to really up our food game as prop master, an assistant prop master and prop assistant. Michael Jamin: Then how do you, because we were talking earlier, you're based out of Austin, and I was like, I just assumed. So all your work is basically local and you get enough work locally? Scott Reeder: I work locally when I can. Michael Jamin: Is that most of the time though, isn't Scott Reeder: It? But occasionally I'll have to travel Michael Jamin: Occasionally, right? Scott Reeder: Yeah. I did Nosferatu for AMC in Rhode Island, and so when things get slow here in town, I'll travel on. I did a movie in Mississippi in 2019. Michael Jamin: And how do you get most of your work? You don't have an agent getting you work, do you? Scott Reeder: No. Word of mouth. It's just relationships I've built with producers and word of mouth. Michael Jamin: So how does that work basically when it's like, how do you know when it's time to, oh, there's nothing going on in Austin. Do you give it a couple of weeks, a couple of months? What do you do Scott Reeder: Typically? Hopefully I have a job lined up and we try to play on a few months ahead. If not, it's just wait around. Now what I do, Michael, is I'll fill in as art director on commercials. Michael Jamin: Oh, really? Okay. Scott Reeder: So actually I'm lined up for one starting next week, and I haven't been that fortunate with commercials through the strike because when the actors went on strike, even though companies can still make commercials, they're holding back on their campaigns right now. Michael Jamin: Why is that, do you think? Scott Reeder: I don't know, but there's, there's definitely been a slowdown. Interesting. Now, part of that could be the Texas heat. I don't know, but it's definitely slower than normal. But yes, I would try to line jobs up at a time. I'll call around, let some people know that I'm available, but a lot of people know me will say, oh, Scott shows ending soon. I'll give him a call. That sort of thing. It's a very small community. Michael Jamin: I bet. Do you prefer to work in TV or film? Scott Reeder: My bread and has been television. I like both. If I go through a full season of television and I have enough time between seasons or it's a picture wrap of a show, I like filling in with features. Michael Jamin: What is the difference for you between the two? Scott Reeder: It's a big difference. It doesn't move nearly as fast. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Scott Reeder: Because Michael Jamin: You're not doing as many pages a day. Scott Reeder: Correct. You might do two or three pages a day. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Scott Reeder: It's just a whole different animal really. If I'm doing a television show, I'm not on set as much in Perpetual Prep. I'm always working on the next script, and if it's a feature, I will prepped it ahead of time and on set, and I'm more hands-on at camera and whatnot, how many, which I like that part of it. Michael Jamin: People don't realize that when a prop is required on set, you'll have backups and backups for the backups. That's the worst thing that has happened. If something goes wrong, the one gets yelled at. Scott Reeder: Oh, correct. Yes. We always try to have multiples. Now there are those items that are one of a kind, and you just got to cross your fingers, pray and let everyone know, Hey, this is the, oh, don't play with this. Between takes. It's the only one we got, but that's rare. We typically have multiples of everything. Michael Jamin: How many multiples is enough, do you think? Scott Reeder: Yeah, it just depends on the scene. I like to have at least bare minimum two. If it's an item that's involved in a stunt, you'll want to have four. Food scenes are crazy because it's hard to determine, because a lot of times the actor might improvise and eat a lot more than you think. Michael Jamin: So Scott Reeder: I always go overboard on food scenes. Michael Jamin: But they give you a budget. I mean, they also say they don't want you to waste. How do you know they don't want you to come up with too much? Because then they're paying for that. Scott Reeder: Yeah. Well, the first couple, if we're talking about television, the first couple episodes or when you kind of feel it out, you'll buy heavier. Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: Then my assistant will call and say, Hey, you got way too much last time. Dial it back, this particular director. And we get to where we know how the directors work. You'll have one director that'll do six takes another director two, and moving on. So you get to where you understand the personalities of everybody and how they work and how they operate. Well, this particular person, the last food scene they went through a lot. So we'll get a lot. Michael Jamin: Now, do you prefer low budget or high budget, or does that not make a difference to you? Scott Reeder: Well, I prefer a bigger budget, Michael Jamin: Really, Scott Reeder: To be honest. Yeah, it's a lot of times if you're working on a no budget feature or a really ultra basic cable show, I'm not going to name names, but they, they literally give you pennies and you're trying, it's just so much harder when you could just go buy something than have to scrounge it or limit your amount of takes because of the budget or limited amount of props you have for a take. Michael Jamin: Now here in LA there's tons of prop houses. I mean, what do you do when you're shooting in an area that doesn't have houses? Does Austin have any good prop houses? Scott Reeder: What you do is you open up a prop house. That's what I did 20 years ago. I opened up a little prop shop. It's not near the scale of the Los Angeles prop houses, Michael Jamin: But Scott Reeder: I have a little bit of everything. It's kind of Michael Jamin: The newest art. That's amazing. So it's just a warehouse and you rent out to other prop masters, not just yourself, but to other productions? Scott Reeder: Correct. Michael Jamin: Wow. And Scott Reeder: I actually rent all over the country. I just had a bunch of stuff come back from the Kevin Costner movie that was shooting in Utah. Michael Jamin: There's one prop house that's going out of business in la. They're having a fire sale, and I'm like, go get rid of that. That stuff is important. Scott Reeder: Well, hopefully one of the other, either history for hire or independent studio services or hand prop room will go in and get some of that stuff. Michael Jamin: And so do you specialize your prop specialize in something? No, Scott Reeder: Not really. I have a little bit of everything. I've got occupational props, a little bit of old West, some period stuff. I've got police gear, lots of military. I try to keep things that you can't find at Walmart, basically. Michael Jamin: Right. Or Scott Reeder: Else the sub decorator will just go to Walmart, typically. So I specialize in harder to find things. Michael Jamin: Is that something, do most prop or many prop masters have their own prop houses, or is that something just your Scott Reeder: Not really. No. I was just the first to open one here. I think a lot of people will have prop trucks that they'll keep their kit on, and they'll have a general assemblage of props that they'll stock props that they'll bring to every, and they'll leave a portion of their truck empty for the hero props that they'll bring on some. I'm sure some have storage rooms, storage facilities, somewhere Michael Jamin: Where Scott Reeder: They store things. Michael Jamin: Well, this explains to me, it seems like a very entrepreneurial in spirit, which explains to me, or maybe it doesn't, but how you started on this TikTok journey that you've been on, because this is very interesting what you do. Scott Reeder: Well, it's totally accidental. During the early days of the pandemic, my daughter was scrolling on TikTok. She was 17 at the time, and she's laughing at some videos. So I'm like, what you laughing at? That sort of thing. So I downloaded it and I saw some people attempting to tell dad jokes, and I'm thinking, well, I can do that, Michael Jamin: And you can, you're good at it. Scott Reeder: And with some that I'd written or taking really old jokes and adding punchlines to 'em, it was just fun. It was a fun hobby during that time where there was no, where the whole industry was shut down. And I got back on the Amazon show that I was on called Panic, and one of my assistants, I can't remember which one it was, but they said, Hey man, what we do is interesting. What if you work in some prop stuff? Michael Jamin: It Scott Reeder: Might be interesting. So I was very careful because you want to be careful not to interfere with any NDA you may have signed. So I just kept things up in the lockup. I didn't go out on set. I just started, here's a breakaway beer bottle, this is what it's made out of, and this is how we safely break it. Boom. Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: That's how it started, just breaking crap on my head, and it just went from there. Of course, the one that took off was silent props, which was pool balls. And I had, of course, I thought everybody did this, but apparently not. Michael Jamin: No, Scott Reeder: I wasn't aware of that. Prop masters. Michael Jamin: Go on. Yeah. Scott Reeder: Well, they were painted. Michael Jamin: Right. I'll explain just people listening. So when you have a scene on a pool table in the background, you don't want to hear the clinking of the balls, so you don't use pool balls. Instead, you use Scott Reeder: Go ahead. Painted racket balls. Michael Jamin: Painted racket balls, and they're about the same size. Scott Reeder: Exactly. Yeah. Michael Jamin: And is this something that all prop Masters know, or did you just figure this out? Scott Reeder: Well, it was accidental back way back on necessary roughness. The original back early nineties football movie, we had a bar scene, and for stunts, we painted racket. We had a football player landing on a pool table. Right. So we had all these painted racket balls, but well, we realized, oh, they don't make noise, so that's helpful too. So that's kind of how it started. It was, yeah, because stump prop, Michael Jamin: People don't realize when you shoot a movie or a TV show, you don't want noise in the background. So you'll later impose put in that noise, the set is quiet, and then you wind up putting in the noise. For some reason, it seems so silly, but that's how it works. Scott Reeder: The sound mixer, Michael, I don't know if you probably know this, but if we're filming in a kitchen, Michael Jamin: Or Scott Reeder: Especially in an industrial kitchen in a restaurant, I don't know how the people on the bear do it, because you got to go in and unplug everything. You got to unplug anything that has a compressor, Michael Jamin: Right. It might Scott Reeder: Make noise Michael Jamin: Or, Scott Reeder: Which has boned me a few times because I have stuff stored in a refrigerator and the sound mixer is like, oh, we got to unplug that. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, Michael Jamin: Right. So now you've got to bring a backup fridge. Scott Reeder: But everything shoes, the sound mixer has what they call mold scan and they'll put it on the bottom of people's shoes. Yeah. What else? There's all kinds of stuff. I spoiled the crew of the show that I've been working on because once they saw my videos, they were like, well, well, do you have silent pinging pong balls? And I'm like, well, I can figure it out. Michael Jamin: Alright, so what's silent ping pong call made out of? Scott Reeder: I just found foam balls on Amazon and painted them, Michael Jamin: But it Scott Reeder: Was that simple. I just measured them. Michael Jamin: But the paint has to, it has to have a sheen. It can't just look crappy. It really has to look real. Scott Reeder: Yeah. Well, pinging pong balls are kind of more satin. They're not glossy, Michael Jamin: So Scott Reeder: You just do just a satin gloss on 'em once you put your paint on. And yeah, they turned out pretty good. Michael Jamin: That's amazing. Scott Reeder: But yeah, the first video I did we're talking, it was 2020. I had garnered about a hundred thousand followers on TikTok, strictly on dad jokes. Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: Then I did this one video with the silent pool balls and the silent grocery bags, because grocery bags are a big deal. You know how noisy paper grocery bags are, and I came up with this joke as I was filming and I was like, should I do this joke? It was at the end of it, I took the pool balls and put 'em in the paper sack and said, and now the sound man is not annoyed with my ball sack. Michael Jamin: That Scott Reeder: Was the joke. And I filmed it and I'm like, should I leave the joke in? I was really torn. I was like, yeah, I'll leave the joke. And I signed off my phone. I got in my car, I had about a 30 minute drive home, and I stopped at a convenience store and looked at my phone and it was already up to, I mean, we're talking in half an hour. It had like 20,000 likes, Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: It was insane. That one went up. That one got over 12 million views. Michael Jamin: That's really a lot. And did it make you nervous when it first happened? Scott Reeder: Oh yes. Michael Jamin: Okay. Let's talk about why. Scott Reeder: Well, the thing is I'm, I've never been social media savvy. I've never been that dialed into it. I did have an Instagram account, but I maybe had a hundred followers Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: Somebody at work said, Hey, hey, Scott, when are you going to post on Instagram? I was like, well, I don't know. My hands are full with TikTok. And they were like, well, dude, how did you get so many followers? And I looked at Instagram and it was at like 10,000. Michael Jamin: I was Scott Reeder: Like, oh, geez. So I've been kind of forced into branching out to other platforms when I've already kind of got my hands full because all this, I'd say 75% of my content has been done while I'm also pulling a 12 hour day on a TV show. So it's a lot. Michael Jamin: People don't realize it's a lot because, but there's a lot to talk about here. I'm very interested because first of all, you have something like 1.7, I think million followers on TikTok, which is huge. And this is only how many, two or three years you're doing this? Scott Reeder: May of 2000, may of 2020 is when I started, but I started slow Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: Then got into, then I guess it would be, I'd say July of 2020 is where I really started picking up. Yeah, Michael Jamin: But why did it make you nervous when you started going viral? Scott Reeder: Well, part of it, I felt like a little bit of imposter syndrome. Well, I don't really deserve these accolades because I'm just doing justm, not doing anything that great. I didn't think, and I was like, well, how can I keep this up? I'm going to run out of stuff to talk about, but I've been able to just, I just keep going. I always come up with something. Michael Jamin: Right. What's the agreement you made with yourself? How many times a week do you post? Scott Reeder: I try to post at least four times a week. Michael Jamin: Okay. Scott Reeder: I can't knock. I wish I'm one of those I can't get. Early on, I was doing two a day, but it was just Michael Jamin: Burning Scott Reeder: Me out, and I'm also trying to do stuff for YouTube and whatnot. So it's just Michael Jamin: Separate different content for YouTube? Scott Reeder: No, it's the same, but I'm trying to get, I'm filtering. I'm trying to work on some long form as well. But yeah, then YouTube. But like I said, I always feel like I get forced into other platforms. I found out in early 2021, there was a YouTube page. They had 90,000 subscribers. It was called the Prop Master. It was my profile picture and 40 of my videos. Michael Jamin: Oh, you're kidding. What'd you do? Scott Reeder: I went and I did copyright claim on every, I stayed up all night, copyright claiming every video. How did you Michael Jamin: Prove it? Scott Reeder: I sent links to my account because for that, they were just taking them off of TikTok, so I sent links to my TikTok. I sent direct links so they could easily see the date it's dated. Michael Jamin: I cut you off. Were you about to say you hired a lawyer? Scott Reeder: I hired a lawyer just in case, but luckily the person ceased and desist. They immediately pulled all the videos down, changed the name of the channel, how Find though Away did, what's that? Michael Jamin: I'm sorry, I cut you off. They walked away with what? Scott Reeder: They walked away with all the subscribers. There's no way to get those subscribers back, which really pissed me off. Michael Jamin: What was the name of the page though? Were they using your name? Scott Reeder: No, they weren't. It was just called the Prop Master, but it was my profile picture Michael Jamin: Off of Scott Reeder: TikTok and it was all my videos. And Michael Jamin: How did you find them? Discover them. Scott Reeder: You know something? There's another creator named Garden Marcus. He's a gardener on TikTok, and his manager reached out to me and said, Hey, this person has been made a fake account on YouTube. So they reached out to me to warn me. They said, it looks like this guy's doing your content too. Michael Jamin: Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com and now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? This happens to me all the time, not on YouTube, but you must have 'em too. You have fake accounts with your profile picture. They spell your name wrong with one letter, and they're just trying to scam people. I guess. I'm not sure what the point is. Scott Reeder: I don't know. But yeah, I bet there's six or eight on TikTok. It happened to me again just about, I found out about it three weeks ago on Facebook. I never have had I've, like I said, I've always had my hands full with Instagram and TikTok and YouTube, and I always keep saying, well, I'm going to eventually branch out. I had made a Facebook, a Scott Prop roll Facebook page and posted some videos back in 2022. I didn't, but I didn't get any views, so I gave up on it and then I found out I looked and this, I just happened upon it. I just did a search to see if there were any fake accounts on Facebook, and sure enough, this person made a Facebook page, said, Scott Prop and Roll spelled exactly the same. They've got 69 now, now 70,000 followers. So I always take that as a challenge. I'm like, okay, well boom, I'm going to start posting my videos. And of course then you get a little let down because they don't get any views then. But it's the same thing as with YouTube. Same exact thing with the algorithm. It's like you post about 20 videos and you got nothing, and a few weeks later, things start kicking in. Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: So I've played massive catch up. I haven't quite caught up with the fake me, but I'm close to the fake Me is at 70,000. I just hit 60,000. But are Michael Jamin: You going to try to take down the fake account on Facebook? Scott Reeder: I did. I reported it, and they came back with, we can't take down fan pages, so I've just got to keep at it. Michael Jamin: But it's not a fan page though. Scott Reeder: No, it's not. It's definitely not. People don't realize how frustrating this is Michael. My mom was following the fake. Michael Jamin: True. Now, people don't realize the amount of work that goes into this. The night before, I've had to post five times a week the night before. I'm like, oh, crap. What am I going to talk about tomorrow? Do you get the same thing? How much thought goes into the night before? Scott Reeder: Well, I just have a list anytime I get an idea, because I'm real bad about not writing stuff down, but I've gotten a lot better, especially with doing content, is I just keep a running list and the night before I'll look at that list and if I haven't already fleshed it out already, and then I'll Michael Jamin: Come up with, the thing is, your content is very family friendly. What you do is very interesting. Like I said, it's like watching a magician, and yet I can't imagine why someone would troll you, and yet I'm certain people troll you because people are jerks or do they not? Scott Reeder: I've been really lucky it hasn't been that bad. Yeah, there've been the occasional, and typically it's like if someone gets mad at me about something, which I really don't give people much reason to be mad at Michael Jamin: Me. Scott Reeder: The first thing that they said is they call me old man, and it's like whatever's like, okay, now what? I'm an old man on TikTok that probably has more followers than you, is what I'm thinking in my head, but I never say Michael Jamin: It. Right. So you don't respond in any way to these people? Scott Reeder: I do not. I do not. I watched way too many people respond. There are some accounts out there that are more kind of vlog and they eat that up that gives them content. Michael Jamin: It's Scott Reeder: Like if someone says something snarky to 'em, they jump on it and they'll make six different videos about a guy that talked bad to him. That's just not my style. Michael Jamin: Engage with, you must have super fans too. Do you engage with them? Scott Reeder: Yeah, I try to. Michael Jamin: Okay. Yeah. You like a little, so every comment or some comments, because it can be overwhelming. You have a huge following. Scott Reeder: Well, I will keep my eyeballs on the comments on a video for a few days, but yeah, you can't keep up with it. Michael Jamin: Yeah, Scott Reeder: Once it's been posted over a week. Michael Jamin: Okay, but you Scott Reeder: Do try to Michael Jamin: Respond. See, that's something I'm troubled with is then I'm spending way too much time on the app. The problem is, and I appreciate all the kind comments, but I'm like, how much time am I going to spend on this thing? Scott Reeder: Now? Michael Jamin: Are you monetizing any of this? Scott Reeder: I've recently been trying with the TikTok beta. Have you done creativity beta? Michael Jamin: So what is that? Scott Reeder: That's been the best thing. It's the most profitable because TikTok, I was on the, since 2020 on the creator was the standard creator plan, Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: It's more like if you do a 61 second or more video, the payoff is almost like a YouTube long form. It's really good. Michael Jamin: So you are actually okay, because I haven't done it yet, and I thought they may actually decrease my reach if they have to pay you. I thought my mind is they might punish you. Scott Reeder: To be honest, my reach went up on the longer videos. Michael Jamin: How long do you usually go? Scott Reeder: What's that? Michael Jamin: When you say longer? Longer than what, like three minutes or four minutes? What do you Scott Reeder: No, I do 61 seconds. Michael Jamin: That's long to you is 61 seconds. Scott Reeder: Well, yeah. I mean that's long to them. As you do over 60 seconds, Michael Jamin: It's Scott Reeder: A whole different payment structure. It ranges anywhere from 70 cents per thousand to a dollar, 16 per thousand views. Just that adds up. Michael Jamin: It adds up. Right. So you're not doing this for the money, but it's nice to get the money. Scott Reeder: Correct, Michael Jamin: Yeah. Scott Reeder: Especially during a strike. Michael Jamin: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so it's significant, but now, was there a moment though when you just wanted to stop or quit or? Scott Reeder: Well, there are times where I feel burnout, that's for sure. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Scott Reeder: But I've always just kept grinding. Michael Jamin: What have been some surprising advantages that have come from this that you would not have guessed Scott Reeder: Michael? Number one, I want to say you've had the best questions out of any podcasts I've been on. Michael Jamin: Really? Scott Reeder: You really do. You really Michael Jamin: Enjoy Scott Reeder: This? So really the coolest thing to come out of it is, okay, I hate to do this. I got to go back a little bit. I was worried when I first started doing these videos that other masters in Los Angeles would think, who does this guy think he is telling them how we do our job? Michael Jamin: Yes. Scott Reeder: So I was worried. So I was kind of waiting to see if there was going to be any backlash. Well, I got a call from a prop master named Peter Clark, and he said, Hey man, I just want to let you know I've been watching your videos and I'm learning from your videos, and I really want to tell you I appreciate what you're doing. I kept, this Michael Jamin: Is a word respected prop master that you looked up to. Scott Reeder: Yes. Michael Jamin: Wow. Go on. Yeah, go on. I cut you off. So I'm sorry. Scott Reeder: I had so many questions, and then I got other calls stating the same thing. Then next thing, I was invited to be a founding member of the Property Master's Guild, which it's similar to, it's not a labor union, it's similar to the Art Director's Guild or the Set Decorators Association, something like that. But there had never been one. And I came in before we opened the doors to the Guild. Here I am a guy in Texas on a founding group of prop masters. And it was, Michael Jamin: Isn't that amazing? Scott Reeder: It was truly a pinnacle of my career, really being just the biggest honor is having other prop masters that I've been idolizing for years. I just went to in July. So because of the rider's strike, all the prop trucks were parked at Independent Studio services, which is the biggest prop house in la. And so I flew out for the, we were going to have a tailgate party, and every prop master, if you were a prop master and you were in la, you were at this party. And we had prop masters coming in from Canada all over the place. And it was the funnest event. It was just absolutely amazing. But I've got to meet the guy that prop mastered Patton was there, all these retired prop masters were there. The guy that was Dennis Parrish, who was also the founder of one of the big prop houses, bill Petrada, who did Starship Troopers. Well, movie's going way back. But yeah, Michael Jamin: You must've been a little bit of a celebrity there must. Everyone recognized you. Scott Reeder: It was a little weird, but I felt I was gotten used. Michael Jamin: Got used to that. And so you were worried at first of being judged. And then of course that's not, I mean, that's just a lesson in and of itself. Everyone's worried about being judged about being an imposter, and now that's not what happened. But to be fair, you were staying in your lane. This is what you know, and you're talking about what you know. And so it is kind of like this unfounded fear. You didn't need to be worried, but tell me about what happens to you because it's a little bit the same thing when I'm walking on strike at the picket line at the writer's strike, I get recognized. Where else else would I get recognized? If not on a picket line on the rider's strike, that's where I would. So it is a little what happens to you when people, but you have a huge following. You must get recognized outside of these circles as well. Maybe at the supermarket, wherever Scott Reeder: I have, I haven't gotten used to it. I mean, it doesn't happen all the time, but occasionally. Michael Jamin: And then what's your way of handling this? Scott Reeder: Well, typically they just say, Hey, can I get a selfie? And I'll take a picture with them, and that's it. Thanks for watching my videos right's Michael Jamin: Funny. It's really crazy. Yeah, it's a trip. Because yeah, you're in their lives every day. They see you every day, and you're somebody special to them, and you are. You're making them laugh in 61 second increments so that you can get your payout. Now, I know when I watch your videos that I will never see one that's 59 seconds because Scott Reeder: You're true. Not anymore. Michael Jamin: You'll stretch that to 61 to get your payday. Scott Reeder: I will. I went back and I posted an old video that I'd done that I thought, I bet there's probably a lot of my followers that haven't seen it. And it was 59, it was 59 seconds. I went back and I always do my head turn. Now I always do my head turn at the end. I'll say my stupid joke, and then I'll ponder it. So I just slow mode my head turn. Michael Jamin: How much time will you spend on a post? I have a rule that How much time will you spend on a post producing a post? Scott Reeder: I don't time it. And they're all different because some of them, I'm doing commentary because I've done well, kind of dueting videos that I find on Instagram, typically other filmmaking videos, because I branched out a little bit to where if I see that there's no one's doing videos, discussing a poor man's process show, they'll show it, but they won't tell the audience what's going on. So they're limiting their audience, right? Like, oh, well, this is strictly for filmmakers, Michael Jamin: But Scott Reeder: When I started, I'm like, well, what they're doing here is this and this. So the prop man is over here shaking the car, and then the gaffer is spinning a light. And I just say, what all is happening in this shot? Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: Those videos have done well. Michael Jamin: Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Scott Reeder: Same with stunt people. You know what I've had to worry with though, is the dangerous content violation. Because even if you're showing a clip Michael Jamin: Of Scott Reeder: A stunt from a, it could be die hard. It actually happened to me on Die Hard Michael Jamin: When Scott Reeder: I was talking about rubber glass, that that's what they walk on. And it got a sensitive content page slapped on top of it, which totally, it just pulls you off the FYP. It's just like you might as well not have even posted it. Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: So I've got to be real careful about, because even in their community guidelines, they have added in there, even fictional violence. Interesting. So if it's a movie clip, yeah. Michael Jamin: See, the problem with what I have to do to go viral, I have to piss people off, which I'm not comfortable doing. You have see something controversial, but you don't really have to worry about, I think you just go viral when something's truly interesting that blows people away. The secrets that you reveal. Well, Scott Reeder: Like I said, I'm doing that because I did a joke, it was mainly a dad joke, but I incorporated, it was about a rubber cinder block where I show that the cinder block is rubber. And I said, we use these to keep the actors from getting hurt. And I threw it at my assistant and it hits him in the head, Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: Then the camera goes to me. I'm just doing it all like this with my hand. And then off camera, he just nails me with it. At the end, after I tell the horrible punchline to the joke, he nails me with it. And I put in this, I folded in, which I like. I love doing, I'm an amateur Foley guy. I love taking the props that I have and trying to make sounds to him. Just loony tune stuff over the top. But Michael Jamin: In the app, it's actually hard to do that in the app. You're talking about editing sounds in the app? No. Scott Reeder: Yeah. I rarely edit in the app. Michael Jamin: Where do you edit? What do you use? Scott Reeder: I just use in shop. It's an app that I found that way. I'm not dealing with watermarks, and I'll just kind, Michael Jamin: It's called in shop. Scott Reeder: Yeah, I-N-S-H-O-T in shop. Michael Jamin: I'll write this down. Scott Reeder: And I think I pay maybe 99 bucks a year, but it's been worth it. Every penny and its tools are easier for me anyway. So to do, because when you do a vocal, well, it says voiceover, but you record your sound, you can move it around a lot easier. Michael Jamin: Yeah, because a real, and then you add, when you upload it to TikTok, then you add the big captions. Is that how you or you add Well, Scott Reeder: Sometimes off the, I'll put 'em in. The ones in InShot kind of match the ones TikTok has. Michael Jamin: Maybe not, Scott Reeder: But it's worth giving it a shot. How funny. But that's just what I've been comfortable with. Michael Jamin: Interesting. And you don't use because there's cap cup, you, you don't like that? Scott Reeder: I haven't. Michael Jamin: You haven't tried it? Scott Reeder: I haven't really tried it that much. Michael Jamin: See, I'm interested in whatever's the easiest. That's why I've been using shooting and TikTok and then uploading the Instagram only. It's just laziness. It's just like the less I can do, the better. But maybe your way might be better. Might be easier. I might have to look into this. Scott Reeder: It's worth trying. It's a pretty easy to navigate. That's why I did it was because it was easier. It was easier to navigate, I thought, than TikTok. But yeah, I just haven't gotten into cap cut. Michael Jamin: Right. Oh, interesting. So I'm learning something today. And so has this helped you professionally? I mean, it's nice to be recognized by your peers, but is it getting you work? Scott Reeder: Not really, because I've kind of been on the same gig. It's like when the strike's over, I've got a series. I've got a season four of The show that I was working on. And so yeah, I mean, it's been, the coolest thing is showing people, and it's really a lot of kids out there. My audience is 18 to 34, probably similar to your audience. I think we probably have a lot of the same age range. It's people learning, oh wow, I didn't know that profession existed. And ooh, this is a possibility for me. Showing them that it's out there and everyone wants to know, well, how do I get in the business? And I know you get that question probably 10 times more than I get it. And you just got to be tenacious and proactive. And if there are no films shooting where you live and you want to be on a film crew, you move to somewhere that makes movies and TV shows. And it doesn't have to be just LA anymore. It could be Atlanta, it could be la Atlanta, Vancouver, North Carolina, new Orleans or New Mexico has a pretty good, you could make a living. Michael Jamin: Now we talked about a little bit about imposter syndrome, but was there a moment, even when, for me, in the beginning it was like, who am I? Isn't this AP just for teenage girls who might even Scott Reeder: Be talking, Michael Jamin: Who cares about me? How did you feel that way? And are you over that? Scott Reeder: Yeah, I think I'm kind of over it. You get to where it really thickens your skin a bit. You get to where, because some people are, like you said, there are those trolls that it doesn't matter who you are, they're going to go after. I did have one scary situation where have you dealt with any kind of stalker situations? Michael Jamin: No. And I hope I never do. What was your story? What Scott Reeder: Would you do? Well, I'm trying to be vague about it, but there was a guy got ahold of my cell phone number and was just blowing it up and then texting, leaving long messages, and I didn't call back because he didn't sound something wasn't right. And these text messages that I got worried me and I went so far as to go into, luckily with the show I was working on, I was friends with the HR lady and said, Hey, what do you, I was like, Hey, I know you've got to deal with that. Some of the actors Michael Jamin: Have Scott Reeder: This happen. What do you do? Michael Jamin: What'd she tell you? Scott Reeder: And I just really, it was almost like dealing with a troll in the sense that it got to the point where there were profane messages left because of my not responding. Michael Jamin: Yes. Scott Reeder: But eventually it ended, eventually it ended. It went on for a year, a year and a half. Michael Jamin: Oh my. But you didn't take any, first of all, why didn't you block them? Scott Reeder: I did. And they called back from a different number every time. Every time they called, it was a different number. Michael Jamin: And eventually they just got bored. You're saying? Scott Reeder: I'm hoping. Michael Jamin: Yeah, just a nightmare. Scott Reeder: It really was. It was. I mean, we're talking calls at 11:00 AM 11:00 PM 2:00 AM Michael Jamin: What does your family think about all this? Scott Reeder: Well, that kind of stuff. I tried to not really worry them too much that it was happening. I mean, my wife, I told, but no, the family's great. They, they're loving it. Michael Jamin: They get kick it. Your kids are not embarrassed that dad's doing this. I think it's cool. They think Scott Reeder: It's cool. No, my son eats it up. He is 12, almost 13. And this is kind of a funny, I accidentally made him a meme. I'll tell you what, three years ago, I didn't know what the word mean meant. So that's how backward I'm, so I did a video again with the rubber cinder block saying I was making a joke that when you're a prop master, you can't p prank your kids anymore because they're desensitized to any impending doom. And so I said, Hey, Watson, my son's going by on a scooter, and it was all staged. Michael Jamin: And I Scott Reeder: Had him go by on the scooter. I say, Hey, Watson, cinder block. And I throw the cinder block and he doesn't even flinch. He just keeps moving. It bounces off of him. Right? Well, a year later, someone and the video did okay. It was pretty well received, but I wouldn't say super viral or anything, but someone took that three second snippet of me saying, Hey, Watson cinder block. And they froze it right before the cinder block hits it and it blew up. I mean, right now, if you were to type in, Hey, Watson, it'll probably finish your sentence and say Cinder block, and you'll see hundreds of videos. And then people did like fan videos. I bet there are 15 different animations of it. And there's a game in Roblox called Item Asylum. And one of the most deadly weapons in item asylum is the cinder block. Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: When you throw it, it's my voice saying, Hey, Watson, cinder block. Never got a penny for it. But I think it's funny. That's a trip. My son was very proud. Michael Jamin: Oh, that's Scott Reeder: A trick. Yeah. And then every YouTuber, I'm talking, the top YouTubers were like Wilbur Soot and Jimmy here. And a lot of these big gamer YouTubers were, there was the trend where they were doing the, you laugh, you lose videos. And that meme was in every, you laugh, you lose video Michael Jamin: Out Scott Reeder: There. Michael Jamin: Now you mentioned that you've done a lot of, I guess, podcast interviews. Who's reaching out to you to try to have you on their, and why? What's that about? Scott Reeder: Well, I've done, a lot of times it's other talkers starting podcasts. I did film festival. I did a film festival podcast last week. Prop, the Prop Masters Guild has a podcast. I did that one, but I did, Erin, what's her name? Erin McGough is her name. And she's a documentary filmmaker. Michael Jamin: I Scott Reeder: Can't remember the name of her podcast, but she's got one. I don't know. I've done quite a few now. I'm trying to remember 'em all. There have been just general podcasters out there that are just kind of general all purpose. They just go on topical things. I will say this, you know what I avoided was when rust happened, I got a ton of costs. Michael Jamin: I bet Scott Reeder: I got a ton of costs. And I kind of talked it over with my friend who's a line producer and was like, man, I don't know if I feel comfortable taking these calls. A prop master, not an armor. However, we are the ones a lot of times that hire the armors. And I was like, so basically I turned down every interview because I didn't really want to get defined by that. Michael Jamin: You didn't want to wait, I would think. Okay, so you didn't want to wade into the controversy and you didn't want to, what else? I mean, obviously it was a tragedy. Scott Reeder: Yes. I just didn't want to capitalize on it. Michael Jamin: You didn't want to capitalize on it. Right. That's what it was. Scott Reeder: Plus tie yourself to that. So if you're on CN and every major network talking about it, then you got to get connected to that. And I really didn't want to be connected to it in any way. I did one, I did a TikTok, like a three minute one talking about a couple days after it, because so many of my followers were like, come on, Scott, you got to weigh in. So I weighed in on my TikTok and YouTube and just said, well, look, I waited until the sheriff's department had put out a statement to where we kind knew what they say the events were, because the first couple days they kind of kept it hush hush. And so I read the sheriff's statement and then based what I said on that was what the protocols were, these are what the protocols that we use, and they worked. They're good protocols. That's how we've kept people safe for many years. But they breached every protocol. They broke every rule Michael Jamin: In the book, my Scott Reeder: Personal opinion. And I just said, these are the protocols that we use and this is how they performed their duties. And this is, of course, resulting in, Michael Jamin: Never worked on a show, worked on a show. As far as I know, I've never worked on a show with weapons, with blanks. But we did do a show where we had a dummy gun. It was a rubber gun. And I remember having to talk with the ad saying, no, let's do a safety meeting. I want to make sure people know it's a fake gun and still treat it as if it's a real gun. But I don't want anybody being scared. Let's just talk about it Anyway, I don't know. I'm overly nervous Scott Reeder: For sure. We always try to do safety meetings on that, even if we're using an airsoft Michael Jamin: Or Scott Reeder: A rubber gun. But I've worked with, that's the whole thing, conventional blade fire. If you're working on a lot of action films, I've been around it for the last 30 years. I don't personally like to armor, to be an armor. I prefer prop master, and I'll always bring an armor on. So no, so I'm not losing focus, Michael Jamin: But it's certainly a different license. You have to have to be an armorer Scott Reeder: In LA there, Michael Jamin: But Scott Reeder: There aren't a ton outside of la. It's just, it varies state to state. Michael Jamin: Right. And I can Scott Reeder: See, so producers really have to do their due diligence and making sure that they really check the resume and do reference checks on the person they're going to hire. That's so important with that position. Michael Jamin: Well, for sure. But as with the stunt board, anybody like that, anyone where someone can get hurt for sure. And so I can see you actually not wanting to be, I guess, the face of that controversy. Is that what it was? Scott Reeder: Oh, yeah. Michael Jamin: Yeah. Scott Reeder: And I knew that there were other people that could weigh in a lot, be more informative than I could because I'm not a, not an armor room. And there are other people better suited for that. To me, there are several prop houses out of Los Angeles that have wonderful weapons departments. And if you think about it, I think I got it from New York Times. I think the number's this since 1990, I think it's 43 deaths have occurred on film sets in the us. And this isn't because there are a lot of other ones, but if you go worldwide, but the two of them were, well, Brandon Lee was one, Michael Jamin: Helina, Scott Reeder: Hutchins was other. Those are the only two firearms related, I mean, film sets are dangerous, especially if you're on an action show where there's a lot of vehicles. Most of those deaths were equipment related or from falls, people falling off of rigging motorcycle car, but not always stunt men. A lot of them were camera operators Michael Jamin: That Scott Reeder: Got killed because they're mounted on those insert vehicles too. The camera department, they put themselves out there and put themselves in dangerous situations just as much as the stunt guys on occasion. So I have a lot of respect for all of 'em. But because it's firearms and it was a star that it's just, it really put us all prop and armor are folks under the magnifying Michael Jamin: Lens. Yeah, right. That's interesting. Scott Reeder: So you just hope that it promotes positive change. If something's going to come out of it, that's what it'll be. It's just people more aware and because of that, hopefully it kept the worst accident from happening that would've happened. Right? Michael Jamin: Yeah. People also don't realize, because listen, I'm not on set a lot. I'm usually in the office writing, but when I'm on set, I'm like, oh my God, the crew, they work so hard. They work so hard for so long. And then at the end of the day, if you don't go over, let's say, sometimes you go over and then if you're out in the middle of the nowhere, you have to drive home or wherever you're driving to. And then you go home and you unwind, try to unwind for a second, fall asleep as fast as you can because you got to go back to work the next day. It's exhausting. It's a hard, it's not an easy life. The crew works hard. Scott Reeder: No, but that's where segue into Union standard policies before it was nine hour turnaround, which means from the time they call wrap or no, I think it's from the time that you shut your truck, when you actually physically leave, when you physically leave the base camp or the Michael Jamin: Set, Scott Reeder: And then you're supposed to get nine hours, nine hours isn't much nothing. Especially if you've got a 45 minute or an Michael Jamin: Hour Scott Reeder: Drive home. Michael Jamin: Right. Scott Reeder: So now I believe it's, I think it's pretty much a 10 hour turnaround across the board. Michael Jamin: But even that, it's like, but people don't understand. So you race home after your exhausted day and then whatever, brush your teeth or whatever, and you hope to fall asleep as fast as you can because you don't have enough. You can't waste time. And you don't know. It could be happening. Your day could end at three in the morning. You don't know what your day ends. You could have, it's true. It mean splits. Scott Reeder: What's rough is working on Robert Rodriguez stuff, troublemakers here in Austin, their studio, and I worked on a show called Planet Terror, Michael Jamin: And Scott Reeder: This was before Machete, but that movie was a hundred percent night shoot. Michael Jamin: I mean Scott Reeder: Every bit of it to where I might've turned that Michael Jamin: Down. Scott Reeder: Three months of working from 7:00 PM to 7:00 AM and a lot of those locations being remote, an hour plus drive. Michael Jamin: And you knew that going in though, and you still wanted to do it. Scott Reeder: Yeah, I'm older and wiser now. Michael, Michael Jamin: You might not have done it now, right? I'm not sure I'd want to take on it. It's a hard job working, being, yeah, the graveyards too. Scott Reeder: And the horror movies. Horror movies are tough. Michael Jamin: That's a good point Scott Reeder: On prop people, because typically they're very proppy. There's going to be a lot of weapons, Michael Jamin: Lot of, and it's going to be dark, Scott Reeder: And it's going to be dark, Michael Jamin: Which Scott Reeder: Is a lot harder to move around and get. It's easier to hide from camera, but that's about it. Michael Jamin: Yeah, that's about it. Wow. Scott, this is such an interesting conversation. I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I learned a lot. I want to tell everybody where they can follow you. So all your social media handles the same. Scott prop and Scott Reeder: Roll, Scott prop and roll. Yeah, that's TikTok, YouTube, Instagram and Facebook. Michael Jamin: Facebook and YouTube. But you said YouTube. Did you say YouTube and YouTube. Scott Reeder: Oh yeah. Michael Jamin: Okay. Go follow. It's such an interesting behind the scenes peak at, I don't know about the magic that goes and all the practical, which is so interesting. The practical, not the in-camera special effects, but the practical props and stuff. Wonderful. You have such an engaging channel, and thank you so much for putting it all out there. You're a great watch on TikTok and Instagram, so thank you again, Scott. What a pleasure Scott Reeder: Having you. Well, I enjoy following you. I enjoy everything you do as well. Michael Jamin: Thank you, man. What a pleasure. Nice talking to you. All right, buddy. Thanks so much. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @ PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.