WildFed Podcast — Hunt Fish Forage Food

Well, it's finally here. The last interview of the WildFed Podcast. We'll be back next week with our producer Grant to do a final wrap-up, but as far as guest appearances go, who better to take us out than Dan Flores, and on what better topic than his new book, Wild New World. The book is incredible, even, dare we say, required reading for anyone who's been following the journey of this podcast. It's not just a history of North America and the animals that live here now — the extant animals — and the ones that were here before — the extinct ones. It's also the story of the human predator crossing through Beringia and being unleashed on a homonin-naive megafauna assemblage and the impacts that would have here over the proceeding 20,000 years or so. It traces its way through the Clovis and Folsom cultures, to the post-ice-age extinction events that led to the great mass of cultures we refer to as Native American, up to the point of contact with European explorers. Then, what follows, as we are all painfully aware, is the Great Dying, which led to the loss of some 80-90% of the indigenous peoples of the continent due to diseases that Europeans had developed significant immunity to but were novel to Native America. And of course, colonization and westward expansion. This then gives way to the most substantial human-induced biomass reduction in known history, the denuding of the land and the commodification of its wildlife — which comes with it several tragic, high-profile extinctions. This part of the book is both compelling and at the same time gruesome and loathsome to read about. It's truly a blemish on the history of this country and something we are a long way from reconciling still. Eventually, this leads to the beginnings of the modern conservation movement, which carries us through to the present day, exploring both its sometimes less-than-savory origins, but also its tremendous wins, like the Endangered Species Act. The book walks us through to the very present with some speculation about the future. When Daniel last spoke to Dan, he'd only read a few chapters, and those were some feel-good pages. He didn't really understand what was to come or how it would shake him to the core. He didn't expect it would cause him to reevaluate many of his assumptions or make him audit his own practices and how they relate to this bigger-picture history. It's so easy to forget that we live, not as isolated points in space and time, but rather in a continuum. Embedded in a fabric of living history. Without context for what has come before, we can inadvertently focus myopically on where we are now. Conservation is no different. While our methods for wildlife management are light-years ahead of where they were just a century ago, one thing we've learned making this show is there's still a LONG way to go. It's far from perfect. All that said, humans are and always have been — as long as our genus has existed — predators. Not just dietarily, but behaviorally. Those of us that hunt and fish know this in a very intimate way. The idea of giving that up is not really an option for most of us — despite the hopes of the planet's vegan contingent who believes we can just implement a species-wide dietary experiment on the human population without any malnourishment consequences to ourselves or children. Daniel has been down that road and it leads, in his opinion, off the rails and into nutritional bankruptcy. So, it seems to us that we need to learn to balance our needs, wants, and desires as a predatory animal with our needs, wants and desires for intact fauna and healthy ecosystems. No easy task. One that's not just centuries, but millennia, in the making. It seems to us that this decade could be characterized by a now hyper-connected and networked human race coming to terms with itself, its past, and its future. Those of us who champion a meaningful ecological trophic connection to wildlife are going to have to do the same. We hope, when the dust settles, we can still hunt, fish, and forage, since as Daniel has stated on this show dozens if not a hundred times — we think this is essentially human. Who knows where this all leads, but we're grateful to Dan for this book and the incredible work that must have gone into writing such a sweeping ecological and environmental history. We suspect this one is destined to be a classic. Dan is, no doubt, one of the most important environmental writers of our day, and it's an honor to have him back on the show — and especially as our final interview. As we mentioned earlier, we'll be back next week for one final, more intimate episode of the show. Thank you so much for following along on this journey, for your support, and for your listenership. It has meant the world to us! Now, here's our second interview with Dan Flores on his newest book, Wild New World! View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/173

If anyone in America is deserving of the illustrious title of HogFather, it's Jesse Griffiths. He's a hunter, fisherman, cook and co-owner of Dai Due Butcher Shop & Supper Club and New School of Traditional Cookery in Austin Texas. He's also the author of the Afield, A Chef's Guide To Preparing and Cooking Wild Game and Fish, as well as his most recent publication, The Hog Book, A Chef's Guide To Hunting, Preparing, and Cooking Wild Pigs. The Hog Book is one of the best species-specific how-to-hunt-and-cook books that we've got in our library. Even if, like us, you live in a place without a feral hog population, you want to own this book. It's incredible, and we hope, just the beginning in a long line of books to come. Jesse is a dynamic dude and gets up to a lot more than just hunting and cooking hogs, but as the leading voice on utilizing wild pigs for food — and not just a voice, he utilizes them extensively on the menu at his restaurant Dai Due — he's quickly become the hunting world's reference for turning this otherwise deleterious non-native species into excellent table fare. When it comes to the management of these fecund mammals, Jesse is quick to point out that eating them is unlikely to ever be a total solution. They reproduce far too rapidly, are far too intelligent, and just too well integrated into the landscape to eradicate, but.. eating them does provide us with an excellent source of quality wild protein, provides hunting opportunities to those trying to find an inroad into the world of hunting, and shifts the focus from purely adversarial to something more appreciative. Or at least slightly more amicable anyway. One of the things we love about his book is that rather than just giving a set of recipes, he keys the recipes out based on the size and sex of the hog you've got. Big old boars eat a lot differently than pregnant sows, which are really different than younger piglets. Something we'll get into in this interview. We also wanted to mention that, as someone who — like Daniel — started hunting later in life, it's incredible to see how he has impacted hunting culture here in the US. It's a reminder of the rapidly changing hunting demographic and that you don't have to have grown up hunting in order to develop the skills and culinary craft to feed yourself and educate the public. In fact, we think we've only just begun to see the legacy that Jesse is going to leave in the American hunting community. So, it's our pleasure to have Jesse Griffiths on the podcast — especially given that this is one of our final episodes. From the start, it was our goal to curate conversations with important players in wild food culture, and he certainly qualifies. We're proud to have him in our lineup. If you haven't seen it already, go back to Season 2 of the WildFed TV show on MyOutdoorTV.com to see the episode we made with him in Texas. And seriously, get the Hog Book. You won't regret it! View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/171

Our guest today is Andrew Zimmern, who you may know from the long-running cable TV series Bizarre Foods or most recently on Outdoor Channel, Andrew Zimmern's Wild Game Kitchen (which you can watch free on outdoorchannel.com). Daniel has been a fan of Andrew's shows for a lot of years. In fact, they were some of his early inspiration for creating the WildFed TV show. Aside from his television work, Daniel didn't know much about Andrew, and this was his first time talking with him. Like Daniel, he wants to reframe the way we handle and cook wild foods. But, Daniel quickly realized that Andrew's work, though centered around food, is for him, a lot deeper. In fact, it's inseparable from his perspectives on politics and sociology. Though they have some differing opinions about all of this, he, like Daniel, describes what he does as a trojan horse. So, while they might not share the same perspectives on current events or what constitutes the existential threats to our species, Daniel certainly relates to having a deeper "why" for what we do. One thing they definitely agree on is the way that the food IQ of Americans has grown in recent years, that food can bring disparate parties together, and that we can — regardless of how we view the world — break bread together. In fact, we should. That's an important and timely message. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/169

As someone that came to hunting late in life, someone that wasn't raised understanding the intricacies and nuance of the North American conservation model or how our wildlife resources are allocated and ultimately utilized, Daniel was very impressed with the scope and breadth of our opportunities here in the United States as he started to take advantage of them. The more he participated, the more clearly he saw just how blessed we are here to have the ability to participate in this imperfect but extremely functional system. While it can always and should always be improved upon, when we hunt we do so with the knowledge that biological, ecological, and even social concerns have been addressed and that the system is, for the most part, sound. State and Federal wildlife management ensures that population dynamics are strong amongst game species, that there is sufficient opportunity for everyone to participate, and that science is conducted rigorously so that the hunt can be pursued in perpetuity. But what about our right to hunt and fish. Do we really have one? One that is enshrined at the constitutional level? Well, no, not really. At least, not in the way that, say, the 1st amendment protects free speech and peaceable assembly or that the 2nd amendment guarantees citizens the right to keep and bear arms. But can our right to hunt and fish be protected in similar ways? At least at the State Constitutional level? Our guest today is Ellary TuckerWilliams, from the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation — and they are working on that very thing. They're at it around the clock, behind the scenes, protecting our ability to hunt and fish in ways that we'd not heard about before, but now that we have, seem indispensable. They work at the political level, not only to enshrine our rights but also to protect the heritage of hunting against what is a constant onslaught from groups that would, if they could, slowly erode our legal ability to hunt until nothing remains. For the most part, we at WildFed are simply interacting at the resource level, so we're glad to know folks like Ellary are out there — communicating with people in our Federal and State Governments, educating them on the issues that matter to those of us who utilize the resources on our landscape. We need that kind of representation in those places that most nature lovers won't or don't go. Namely, into the halls of government. So big thanks to Ellary and the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation — many of us have benefited greatly from the work they do, likely, without ever knowing it. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/167

It's our privilege today to have author Dan Flores on the podcast. Dan Flores is A. B. Hammond Professor Emeritus of Western History at the University of Montana. A distinguished historian of the American West, he is the author of the best-selling books Coyote America and American Serengeti. Daniel had the opportunity to interview him back when those books were published, and he's pleased to be talking with him now about his latest book, Wild New World, The Epic Story of Animals and People in America. Dan is a uniquely gifted environmental historian, and this was on full display in American Serengeti where he wrote about North America's incredible late Pleistocene bestiary, a topic we find incredibly compelling. If you've listened to the show for a while you've no doubt figured that out about us. When the topic of North America 10,000 years ago comes up, we just can't resist it. Dan's newest book is even more ambitious in its scope, beginning with the comet that ended the reign of the dinosaurs some 65 million years ago, and taking us up through to the present and even into the future. Daniel really enjoyed this interview with Dan, but if he had one regret, it's that he hadn't finished the book before they spoke. So, it's his hope to bring him back soon to discuss it further. But for now, this interview is incredible, and we trust you'll really enjoy it. If you haven't read his books before, we highly recommend you do. He's not just a great author, but an important one. And understanding the past he writes about is — in our opinion — crucial to understanding both where we are today, and where the future might carry us. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/165

Daniel met Dr. Ann Cleveland back on Halloween of this year, when he was invited to give a guest lecture at the Maine Maritime Academy where she's a Marine Biology Professor. Her husband, Dr. Alan Verde, who is also a professor there, was a guest on our show back on episode #160. While they were there, Ann gave Daniel and his wife a tour of the campus, and they had the opportunity to talk a bit about her work there, and he thought it would be great to get her on the show to discuss it. We didn't expect for them to take such a deep detour into the big picture of our precarious situation here on earth, but we're glad they did. Daniel and Ann go deep on topics of climate, fisheries, and our future here on this beautiful planet. We always imagine that those in marine biology must have a front-row seat from which to view the severity of our pollution crisis, habitat and biodiversity loss, and the rapid climate-induced ecological changes that are taking place in a way that most of us — especially if we aren't engaged ecologically with nature — are only intellectually aware of at best or oblivious to at worst. So, in this conversation, Daniel quickly found himself parting with ichthyology and focusing more on the existential. It's hard not to, since the more time we spend hunting, fishing, and foraging, the more concerned we grow for the planet's ecology. Not because of hunting, fishing, or foraging themselves, but because — like we just mentioned for marine biologists — these food pursuits bring you face to face with the reality of what is happening in the "environment" that everyone loves talking about but so few really go out and experience. In particular, we wrestle with the population-wide reliance on commercial fisheries. We always cringe to say that out loud. We have several friends that make their living as fishermen. We love what they do, love to eat their harvest, and love to go out fishing with them when we have the opportunity. We deeply respect the trade, profession, and ancient lifestyle of those who work the sea. We recognize its important place in our heritage and that it's a lot more than just a job. We also feel that ending the market hunt was one of the best things we could have done for conservation and it's the reason that contemporary folks like you or me get to hunt in North America. If we had continued on, harvesting our game for the market, it's unlikely they'd be much of anything to hunt today. Many now recovered expirations would have, no doubt, become extinctions. We'd be remiss not to mention the passenger pigeon as a perfect example of what we mean. Things in our sea are more complex. First, they are far more productive than our terrestrial ecosystems, giving the false impression that they can supply our population with protein limitlessly. Due to the water's obfuscation, the ocean's reserves can seem bottomless. But of course, they aren't. With so much of the modern world still dependent on the sea for its food, we don't think it's alarmist to be concerned about the sustainability of this approach. But unlike landmasses with sovereign borders, the seas are a shared resource. Who can regulate them? Who would we trust to regulate them? And while we here in the US have made tremendous strides towards sustainable regulation, much of the world is far too concerned with immediate subsistence to trifle with such concerns. People need to eat. We believe in wild foods — of course — it's why we make this show. In particular, we think the wild foods of the sea are critical to our health and can help foster an important relationship to planetary ecology when approached with that intention. But, like a good old case of cognitive dissonance, we simultaneously fear we are taking too much, too fast, with technologies that are too disruptive or too effective. Want to know the solution? Yea, us too. But until then, we appreciate being able to have the conversation. So a big thanks to Dr. Ann Cleveland, who came on to talk about ichthyology, and found herself in a conversation about the sustainability of the human lifeway on planet earth. Ann, we really appreciate your input and perspectives here. We hope this conversation inspires some deeper thought and inquiry into the topic. It certainly is becoming a pressing one. And we can't help but think things are just getting started! View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/163

We've got a really important episode for you today. At least, important to us, and probably to you too if you've been listening to this show for a while. In fact, in some ways, it feels like it helps to make sense of a couple of important themes we've explored again and again here over the last 160 episodes. Most notably, those of wild game conservation — who funds it and where its efforts have been focused, as well as invasive species — and in particular, how significant the threat from them is, how we could or should be dealing with them, and what feedback loops we may be creating through our attempted conservation efforts. The interview is with Dr. Bernd Blossey, who specializes in the intersection between whitetail deer and their high populations, invasive earthworms in North America, and invasive plant species and how the three of these factors intersect, overlap, and exacerbate the issues that each, individually, creates on the landscape. Basically, it's like the title says. Too many deer, too many earthworms. Specifically, too many whitetail deer on our landscape, far more than can be sustainably supported by our ecosystems. And the invasion of earthworms beneath our feet in North America, most of which are not native here, since the last glaciation pushed all the worms back to the deep Southern United States. There were, after all, 2 miles of ice covering the land that now is home to now our northern forests. When those forests regrew, they did so in the absence of earthworms, and the worms that are here now are not just exotic but extremely deleterious to those forests and many of the native plant species that live there. These two factors — over-populated whitetail deer from above and exotic earthworms from below — might be influencing the spread of invasive plant species in ways that aren't readily apparent to the untrained observer. But Dr. Blossey — a professor who heads up the Ecology and Management of Invasive Plants Program at Cornell University — is going to pick that apart for us today, helping to make sense of the data. He's also a hunter himself, so his view of conservation is informed from an inside perspective. The conclusion we've walked away with is that a lot of what we've been calling conservation in the hunting community has really been about creating sufficient deer hunting opportunities. This makes sense since it's been hunters footing the conservation bill over the years, but high deer numbers aren't synonymous with healthy ecology, and we may have reached, and exceeded the ecological carrying capacity for whitetail deer in much of the country. This might be a welcomed problem were it not for the devastating consequences this is having on our flora, and in particular how it might contribute to the spread of deleterious exotic species. Like a lot of us, Dr. Blossey likes to hunt and eat whitetails, so he's sympathetic to our desire to have ample opportunities, but after listening, one can't help thinking we need a more holistic approach to conservation in North America. And one that, and we say this a little begrudgingly, brings more than just hunter's voices to the table. After several years of actively exploring these issues, we feel that this conversation has been a missing piece of the puzzle. Certain things just weren't adding up for us. It's already changing the way we look at the landscape and our role as hunters. We hope you find it as eye-opening as we have. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/161

If you haven't been already, we're thrilled to introduce you to Dr. Mike Chamberlain. Somehow, over our years of making this show, we weren't aware of this man or his incredible work on turkeys. Now we feel like we've been stumbling around in the dark. Ok, that's probably an overstatement, since we've had some great mentors, and we've had several excellent and very informed turkey hunters and biologists on the show over the years. But Mike seems to possess a meta-knowledge of these birds, seamlessly combining the science of their biology and ecology with the experience of a seasoned hunter. As a relatively new hunter himself, one who grew up with little of the ecological knowledge needed to be successful in the pursuit, Daniel has relied heavily on his adult learning skills, and that's included finding mentors that can accelerate his learning curve. He started out in his mid-30s, which means he didn't get those crucial couple of decades of watching, listening, learning, and making mistakes. At his age, being successful early on was pretty important if he was going to stick with it and feed himself off the landscape. Without that early life on-ramp to guide him through the typical hunter's journey, he's had to rely on friends, books, videos, podcasts, and of course, many mistakes in the field as his main educational inputs. It's also meant getting occasionally waylaid by the "hunter science". You know — those often repeated but ill-informed tropes that stick around in hunting camps, subtly leading us astray and speaking to the disconnect that often exists between the work of field biologists and the hunters that pursue the quarry. If he had known about Mike's work several years ago he would have relied heavily on it to inform his knowledge of the species and his hunting strategies. Our goal with making the WildFed Podcast has been to curate voices from the world of hunting, fishing, foraging and wild foods cooking, in order to make the road a little easier and the education more concise for those who — like Daniel — are embarking on this journey later in life or in a non-traditional way. So, in that sense, Mike represents just the kind of guest we're looking for. Someone who can rapidly accelerate what you understand about a specific species to make up for the lack of ecological, place-based knowledge many of us suffer from as a result of being raised in a nature-divorced culture. We need Mike Chamberlains for every species — folks that can guide our learning, distilling the scientific knowledge into simple to absorb, useful lessons that help to deepen our connection to our wildlife neighbors. So if you love wild turkeys, and particularly if you love — or hope to love — hunting them, here is an authoritative voice on the topic. Just talking to him has us very excited about next spring! View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/159

Our guest today is Lisa Rose, author of the new book: Urban Foraging, Find, Gather, and Cook 50 Wild Plants, as well as a few other titles on foraging and food. Though urban foraging doesn't come up much on this show, it's always been important to Daniel. It was how he first started foraging, finding plants that grew in his backyard, snacks that grew up through the cracks in his sidewalk, or most importantly, harvesting fruits from neighborhood trees and abandoned lots around town. So we were glad to see that Lisa took this topic on, as it's a great way to introduce someone new to foraging, without having to simultaneously immerse them in wild places that might otherwise add to the complexity of what they're experiencing or learning. Of course, urban foraging poses some unique challenges outside of just land use issues, and that has to do with contamination by pollution. But then again, we face similar threats at the supermarket, where much of the food has also been contaminated by dangerous and pervasive chemicals like pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides. We say that, just to point out that, in 2022 we have to be thoughtful about anything and everything we eat, no matter the source. Daniel's conversation with Lisa also gets pretty philosophical, because foraging, though intensely practical, is today, something we usually do for reasons beyond the pragmatic. We take it on because it holds meaning to us. At least, that — in addition to foods we can't get anywhere else — is what keeps us going out there to encounter species that live on the margins of our nearly ubiquitous human settlements. Though we, as a species, are swimming in excess calories today, relegating foraging to something of an anachronism, we would argue that it's more important now than ever before. Not because we need to do it for food, but because food is the primary way we interact with other species. Because that's what food is after all. Other species. And when we interact only with each other and the suite of domesticated species that we typically live amongst or eat, it becomes easy to forget we share this planet with other creatures. Creatures much older than us or our way of life, creatures that have been here all along. Food is our doorway to ecological literacy. And without that, our planet, we fear, is doomed to be simplified into — eventually — one giant dystopian factory farm, with humans as much the farmer as the farmed. So, while much of the world sees foraging as a throwback to a time long passed, we see it as a doorway to a better, more integrated, and more ecologically diverse future. That makes Urban Foraging a significant act. More than a hobby. It's an investment in a better world. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/157

Pascal Baudar is a legend in the world of wild foods, constantly advancing the practice of foraging into new and unexplored terrain. While many of us focus on calories or medicinal plants, Pascal is uncovering the terroir hidden in places most of us just don't think to look. Sure, there's been a lot of work done on fermentation in the last decade, but nothing quite like what Pascal has been doing. He marches to the beat of his own drum, and if he's drawing off of other influences, we certainly can't tell. He seems to be inspired from some mysterious, unseen source. Just take a look at his social media, and you'll see things that you just won't find anywhere else. When we set out to start this podcast, we wanted to curate the voices of the most influential characters in the world of wild food. It wouldn't be complete without Pascal. We really enjoyed the interview, because, aside from discussing his new book, and the work he's been doing on vinegars and ferments, we go beyond food and get into the philosophy that underlies the "why" of what he does. Pascal, thanks for all your original and groundbreaking work, and thanks for the reminder about what's really important in life. This interview was an inspiration. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/155

Our interview today is with Philippe Grenade-Willis, someone Daniel's been working with for a few years now on various art projects for both WildFed and Surthrival. Philippe is an incredible illustrator with a passion for the outdoors and the creatures that live there. In a nod to Daniel's former podcast, ReWild Yourself, today's episode is a bit more esoteric than most of the content we curate here, but it's also a LOT of fun. Daniel and Philippe talk about art, dreams and archetypes. About the metaverse, transhumanism, and how quickly we are headed into artificial worlds at the expense of the natural one. And they discuss the journey that those of us who didn't grow up as hunters must embark on to embrace our new roles as ecological predators. It's a fascinating conversation that we didn't want to end. Philippe is currently working on the art for the packaging on a new and very exciting Surthrival product and just finished up a t-shirt design that we are launching today — our Antidote to the Metaverse shirt. We highly recommend you check out his art on his instagram page — @OurNuminousNature. It'll give you some insight into the things we talk about in this episode. As we discuss here today, our world is changing fast. Soon, it just might be unrecognizable from the one you were born into. But nature is a compass that is true, one you can trust to keep you grounded in reality. It's something more complex and beautiful than anything humans can create themselves, and as captured as we may be by the glitz and bright lights of our technology, it doesn't take much more than a walk in the woods to prove it. We suspect you already know and believe that, and that's why you listen to a show like this one. Nature truly is an antidote to the metaverse. One, we suspect, we're all going to desperately need in the years ahead. View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/153

It's always fun for Daniel to sit down with his good friend — WildFed producer and cinematographer Grant Guiliano — to podcast without a guest. Just them, talking behind the scenes. Daniel and Grant are currently filming Season 3 of the WildFed TV show for Outdoor Channel, which means they're on the road a lot — flying, driving, boating, hunting, fishing, and foraging, and, of course, filming it all. It's a lot of hotels, AirBnBs, and time away from home. One constant is the time they end up spending together, so there's always a lot to talk about when they sit down to record a show like this one. Our team has just come off of a really exciting trip out to Maryland, where we did some offshore fishing and some inland pawpaw foraging, and so it was fun to recap those experiences. Currently, we're in the midst of filming an archery deer hunt on an island off the coast of Maine, and then we'll have 2 more episodes to make to finish out our season! Those episodes will all go live in just a few more months, so stay tuned for that! In the meantime, if there are any topics you'd like to hear us discuss or guests you'd like to hear on the show, write us at info@wild-fed.com or hit us up on any of our social media feeds. We always love hearing from you! Thanks for all your incredible support and know we are hard at work creating another great season of the WildFed TV show for you! View full show notes, including links to resources from this episode here: https://www.wild-fed.com/podcast/151