Continuum Audio

Diabetic neuropathy is more than a disorder of numbness and pain in the feet. In this episode, Dr. Vera Fridman discusses diabetic neuropathy as a complex, multisystem condition, highlighting the importance of recognizing autonomic involvement, identifying high-risk patients early, and addressing factors that influence progression. Learn practical strategies for screening, prevention, symptom management, and recognizing when symptoms may suggest an alternative diagnosis. In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD, speaks with Vera Fridman, MD, author of the article "Diabetic Neuropathies" in the Continuum® October 2026 Peripheral Nerve and Motor Neuron Disorders issue. Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana. Dr. Fridman is an Associate Professor of Neurology and Neuromuscular Medicine Fellowship Director at the University of Colorado in Aurora, Colorado. Additional Resources Read the article: Diabetic Neuropathies Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @IUneurodocmom Full episode transcript available here Dr. Nevel: Diabetic neuropathy affects millions of people, but in our neurology clinics, are we thinking about it too narrowly? In this clinic, Dr. Vera Fridman emphasizes that diabetic neuropathy is not simply a disease of the feet, revealing it instead as a complex neurologic syndrome with consequences that reach far beyond numbness and pain. Dr. Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr. Nevel: Hello, this is Dr. Kate Nevel. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Vera Fridman about her article on diabetic neuropathies. This article appears in the October 2026 Continuum issue on peripheral nerve and motor neuron disorders. Vera, welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to the audience. Dr. Fridman: Hello, it's great to be here. I'm Vera Fridman, and I'm located at the University of Colorado Medical Center. I'm a neuromuscular neurologist with focus on neuropathy clinically and in my research, and it's great to join you. Dr. Nevel: Wonderful. Looking forward to talking to you about your article and learning more. So, I always like to start these interviews with the question, what is the most important takeaway from your article for the practicing neurologist? Dr. Fridman: I think to me, in thinking about this article and writing it, the most important message and take-home is that we need to start thinking about diabetes-associated nerve injury as a complex disorder that's multisystemic. So rather than sort of just focusing on the peripheral nerve involvement we're used to seeing at the bedside, to really start taking that early clinical presentation of numbness or tingling as a warning sign, as a heralding sign of something that is widespread, complex, systemic, the way we might think about other multi-organ systemic disorders. Dr. Nevel: Great. And that leads me into my next question, because you really do emphasize that throughout your article, all the different ways that this kind of more systemic diabetic nerve injury can impact a person and affect their morbidity and even their mortality. So, can you tell us a little bit more about this more widespread diabetic nerve injury beyond the kind of classic diabetic peripheral neuropathy that maybe we think of as neurologists? Dr. Fridman: Yeah, I think the idea here is that we have nerves innervating a lot of different organs, and they are also not siloed. They're interfacing with other parts of our biology, vasculature, you know, the impact of inflammation. All of these things are converging, and they are complicated. And so clinically, when I think about diabetic neuropathy associated with systemic injury, I think about cardiac autonomic neuropathy, about gastrointestinal and urogenital neuropathies, and that these symptoms can be really diverse, and they can be nebulous. And so, in seeing someone who just says, "I have a little bit of numbness and tingling in my toes," I think the clinician has to sort of force themselves to imagine that there's all this asymptomatic disruption in the person's presentation that they have to dig for to understand better. Dr. Nevel: What else should we be asking to kind of delve deeper to investigate or identify a more widespread diabetic nerve injury? Dr. Fridman: When I think about what sort of trainees and early clinicians miss, like when I see histories come from people who haven't been thinking about diabetic neuropathy for a long time, it's usually the autonomic that's missing. Do you have lightheadedness? Have you noticed decreased or increased sweating? Do you get full easily with meals, what we call early satiety? Patients don't know that word. Do you have sexual dysfunction? That's an enormously important question because it can actually herald that there's more widespread neuropathy, more severe neuropathy, and that there's autonomic involvement or potentially vascular involvement. So those are the ones that I see missed. And then the others would be related to the risk of ulceration. What is your foot care approach? Have you had ulcers in the past? I think a lot of people don't realize that having had an ulcer, even if it happened some time ago and healed, is a major risk factor for recurrent ulceration. You're going to pay attention differently to that patient. And then the other question that doesn't necessarily relate to symptoms, but I think is hugely important to ask is, what are your barriers to caring for your diabetes and for yourself? What is getting in the way of those preventative measures, which are really the only really reliable preventative things we can do, right? Like, we don't have good treatments for this disease. So why can't you exercise? What are some of the reasons why you can't? Really in a non-judgmental, guilt-free way, because we know diabetes increases the barrier to these things substantially, and that patients are struggling just to get through their day. So, I think understanding those obstacles early in the therapeutic relationship is where you can make the most impact. Dr. Nevel: Thanks for sharing that. Can you tell us a little bit more about cardiac autonomic neuropathy and why that's so important? Dr. Fridman: Yeah, well, it's important because basically the largest driver of mortality and cardiac death in this population. And I think sometimes even with well-managed diabetes, we are sort of heartbroken to see patients who have gone on to have really terrible outcomes from cardiac autonomic involvement that we didn't necessarily know was there. The other reason it's so important is because it stays asymptomatic for a very long time. So, it's one of these sort of elephant in the room entities that if you don't ask about, you don't look for intentionally, you're just not gonna know, and the patient's not gonna know. They're gonna think they're lightheaded from their medication, which is a very reasonable postulation when someone's taking neuropathic pain medications and blood sugar is going up and down. But it may just be that there's autonomic disease underlying. The other reason it's important is because it's difficult to test for. So even if you have the awareness that you have to think about it and ask about it, it's not always clear to clinicians what they're supposed to do next if those symptoms are there or how to evaluate them. And so, I think for all those reasons, it's probably the most undetected complication, and it's hugely common, and in some cases preventable through aggressive management of disease. So, I think for all those reasons, it comes out as the one that we need to remind ourselves about. Dr. Nevel: How do you evaluate for cardiac autonomic neuropathy in your clinic? Dr. Fridman: That's a great question. I think I start really with the questions that will be included in this article of kind of these detailed questions about symptoms that they may not know come together as indicating autonomic disease. Then at the bedside, I do a quick heart rate screen to see if they have resting tachycardia. Unfortunately, resting tachycardia is a late manifestation of cardiac autonomic neuropathy, so once you see it, it's probably too late. The next thing is to just perform orthostatic vital signs in the clinic and trying to get in the habit of having the patient lying and sitting and standing and taking the time. And in a busy clinic, that's actually quite a big ask. But if you can get a medical assistant trained and ready to do it on most patients, that I think is really important. If I'm concerned about it, then an EKG, which obviously wouldn't necessarily happen in the same visit, can help look for heart rate variability. And then the next layer is really talking to their primary care about a cardiology referral, because at that point, I think neurologists need help. And that's the other, I think, salient message from my thinking about this field is that this is not something that one practitioner can take on alone, and there has to be a really strong multidisciplinary network, just like we would do for our other complex disorders. Dr. Nevel: Yeah. Do you see in the future there being more multidisciplinary engagement between neurology and cardiology for these patients if this is such a difficult to diagnose problem, but big cause of mortality in these patients? Dr. Fridman: I think that's already happening, but maybe not enough and not in a more algorithmic way. It's happening also through our other diseases that we treat, right? So, we have the emergence of sort of modifying therapies for amyloid, and so that has led to these really close collaborations. I think most neuromuscular clinics now have cardiology that they can contact. And so really broadening that to diabetic neuropathy and creating those pathways for patients early. You have to be a little sensitive that these patients see a lot of doctors, and so, make it as easy as possible. I think that's the key, and getting everyone in one clinic is, of course, financially and sort of logistically very difficult. But having a close relationship to say, "Hey, I saw this patient and noticed this or that on, you know, at the bedside. What would you do next?" I think those relationships are really critical. Dr. Nevel: Yeah. So, kind of moving on into your article, this is kind of a hypothetical situation, but if you could evaluate or only perform one part of your physical exam in a patient with diabetes, what would it be and why? Dr. Fridman: Yeah, I mean, I think looking at their feet and then looking at the sensation at the distal toe, probably with pinprick and light touch, if you had to do one thing. If you have bandwidth to also check vibratory perception, that would be helpful. But I think early on, we know that those small fiber involving neuropathies are more common. And what that tells you in a patient who maybe doesn't even have diabetes, I mean, I think that's another important thing to stress. They may be glucose intolerant and just have a slightly elevated hemoglobin A1c, but we all know that if you look carefully at those patients, a lot of them will have some subtle sensory loss at the toe already. And that's really the patient you want to treat. I mean, that's when you want to intervene. And so, the guidelines currently say to screen at time of diabetes diagnosis, but that's actually probably late. And this isn't discussed in the article because we're sticking to the current day guidelines, but I'm imagining those will be revised as we understand more and more that it's the preempting of the neuropathy that we want to focus on. So, the exam findings of ankle reflexes, for example, that I think a lot of people do sort of semi-automatically in a patient looking for neuropathy, you can have preserved ankle reflexes for quite some time and have important diabetic neuropathy manifestations and cardiac autonomic neuropathy already. And then the foot exam, I think we somehow have to convince ourselves that really small foot deformities like a hammer toe or a bunion or something that maybe in a non-diabetic patient would never be a big deal is a huge deal because that could be a lost limb. And again, it takes that extra intentionality to think about that, right? But that's when you say, "I really want you to get attention from a podiatrist." And, you know, thinking about things where we can have impact, that sensory loss or loss of protective sensation, those subtle foot deformities, that's the beginning. Dr. Nevel: Yeah. And on that note, you know, early recognition, you emphasize is important so that we can take these preventative measures. What things can our patients do to reduce their risk of progression of their diabetic nerve injury? Dr. Fridman: That's a really complex question, actually. So, what we say kind of formally and based on current knowledge is that they can control their diabetes, and they can control their metabolic risk factors. So, we understand more and more about the contribution of obesity, truncal obesity, metabolic syndrome, hypertriglyceridemia, right? These things that maybe weren't as much emphasized in the past because we were very glycemia-focused. So that's changing, and I think most internal medicine doctors understand that better, and as do neurologists. So, we tell them these things, right? But what we maybe forget to tell them is that in type 2 diabetes, that doesn't necessarily ensure the lack of progression of neuropathy, that they may be doing a wonderful job with their diabetic control and working really hard and still be stuck with a lot of neuropathic pain and progression in the sensory loss. And that's just, that's just a fact, right? And I think it actually is important to communicate that upfront to patients so that they don't blame themselves when things are not going well. The other study-proven research-based intervention is exercise. This is, I think, essential to discuss with every patient with diabetes at every appointment. So, as I'm asking questions, one of my questions will always be, "What do you do for exercise? How often do you exercise? What are the barriers to exercise?" We know that exercise can, in smaller studies, show reinnervation of nerve fiber density. We know that there's reductions in neuropathic pain, that people feel better. Energy is a huge problem in diabetes in general. And so, the hurdle to exercising in type 2 diabetes and type one diabetes is high. And so, our job is to facilitate that they do the minimal amount that will be helpful to them that they can tolerate and then slowly build that up. And there's a recent publication looking at physical activity in patients with diabetes that shows that it's actually just under 10 minutes a day of intense exercise that can make an impact. So, if you think about that, even for people who are having a lot of difficulty starting exercise, five to seven minutes a day is a pretty low bar, and then you work from there. So, I think that's important for us to know, right, that that actually can impact in small amounts. Dr. Nevel: Yeah, that's really helpful, and I imagine as a patient would feel a lot more achievable for somebody maybe who hasn't been engaging in physical exercise to hear from their doctor, "I'm just asking you to try five minutes a day or something like that." 30 minutes or 20 minutes each time that has been kind of previously, I think, the metric. Dr. Fridman: Yeah. Agreed. Dr. Nevel: What are some red flags that should alert the clinician that diabetic peripheral neuropathy may not be the culprit of the patient's symptoms? Dr. Fridman: Always with neuropathies, we think about are they sensory, are they motor, are they symmetric, asymmetric? The classic teaching is that it's gonna be a sensory predominant length-dependent neuropathy that you see with diabetes or other idiopathic sort of slowly progressive nerve disorders. When that is not the case, so when there is initial symptom presentation in the hands, when there is marked asymmetry, and when there's early weakness or early substantial autonomic symptoms like presyncope that comes early in disease, those are all sort of red flags for other etiologies. And because we're in an era where there are some treatable conditions that can mimic slowly progressive sensory loss, such as TTR amyloid, right, I think you have to cast a broader net with patients. Comorbidities, I mean, in patients who have other medical issues, you have to be a little bit careful. I also think there's a tendency to say, "Oh, they have diabetes, and therefore they have a diabetic neuropathy." We see this all the time. But really, if their progression has been subacute and more aggressive than we'd expect in, like, 3 months of sudden onset symptoms, that's not diabetic neuropathy. So just being careful to really ask those questions about timing, progression, symmetry, length dependency, and autonomic symptoms. Dr. Nevel: Yeah. Well, pain is not necessarily universal for patients with diabetic peripheral neuropathy. Obviously, as your article points out, many do experience pain. What do we know? You mentioned spontaneous remission of pain among some patients with diabetic peripheral neuropathy, and how should this knowledge inform our medication management? How do you approach this in your clinic in patients who are on neuropathic medicine who have good control? At what point might you consider tapering them off their medications, or how do you go about that? Dr. Fridman: Yeah, no, that's very important. I'm glad you're highlighting that. There's a few scenarios, and like everything with diabetes and diabetic neuropathy, it's like heterogeneous and it's different for different people. So, some people progress, their neuropathy gets worse, but their pain gets better. I think patients have this kind of perception of, their nerves are dead, like they don't feel anything, and that actually may not be inaccurate, but there's at some point that nociceptive response changes in conjunction with the progression of sensory nerve loss. The other possibility is their neuropathy improves, right? So, they exercise, they get really vigilant with their diabetes, they're really on top of it, and then they're in that lucky category of people for whom there's actual reversal. And there's a paper, a natural history five year study of diabetic neuropathy showing that a small percentage of patients legitimately improve on nerve fiber density testing and electrophysiology. So that's another possibility. How does it guide my treatment? So I hate medications. I find them onerous. I find the side effects really difficult for my patients. And they hate medications. A lot of my patients don't wanna be on these medications. So, I make it a rule to ask at every visit what they're on, what they think it's helping with, what the side effects are. I really work through each drug. Like, is it doing anything? What do you think it's doing? And you'll be surprised when you ask that question. People think they're taking medicines for completely arbitrary indications. They say, "It really helps my back pain." You had no idea you were prescribing their Neurontin, you know, for their back pain. And I'm not arguing it's a bad thing necessarily, but you wanna know. Or they'll say, "I think my numbness got a little better." Or other patients will say, "This medicine doesn't work. It's not helping my numbness." Right? And this is where there's this huge education component of, like, I'm prescribing this medicine for these specific symptoms. I want you to keep track of whether they improve, not these other symptoms, right? Because you wanna know if you're targeting the right symptomatology. If you're not, then I take them off. If they're feeling better at every visit, if we're achieving control that is adequate for the patient, they're happy where they are, I start a discussion about reducing. And reducing slowly and then bumping back up. As much as I hate medications, I also think it's, on balance, much more important to control pain than to have people living with it because it disrupts sleep, quality of life, it causes mood disorders. And, you know, I think on balance, it's worse for their health to not treat them. So, I tell them that. But if we have room to reduce carefully with monitoring, I think every patient, every visit. Dr. Nevel: Thank you. You mentioned research earlier, and I know that's a big part of your career. What's going on in research in this area that you think is most exciting right now? Dr. Fridman: Yeah, I think I could break it down to a few themes that I think are most exciting. So, one really exciting theme was shifting away from only hyperglycemia as the main area of research, focus of research. I think that that really broadened our understanding of the complexity of this problem in a way that allows for intervention. And there's great animal work looking at dyslipidemia, looking at obesity, looking at the interaction with exercise, all the things that go beyond. Another big theme is thinking about the interactions between axons and Schwann cells, and then also axons and Schwann cells and other cell types in the environment, right? So not thinking about the neuron as like a siloed organ that has this hyperglycemia that it has to manage, but how does, what is the cross-talk with the Schwann cell? What is the role of the Schwann cell in instigating and propelling the diabetic neuropathy biology? Then skin cells, immune cells, all of this sort of micro-environment, right, that we have to really take into account because it appears that these cells that are non-neuronal cells are playing a really important role. And again, I think that lends itself to different and exciting interventions that, that wouldn't have been thought of before. I also think about the study of pathways. So, thinking about pathways that lead to nerve degeneration in this disease and the variable pathways, right? There's, like, many that have been investigated. Some of them interact with each other. And thinking about pathways across different neuropathy types. What are the pathways that diabetic neuropathy might share with genetic neuropathies or chemotherapy-induced neuropathies? We have a good example of that with the SARM1 neurodegeneration pathways and how those might allow for cross-talk across different areas of neuropathy research. So, I think that's all really important. And then the last piece is we're starting in every disease that's common, and though thus far not fully resolved, we're starting to understand the contribution of genetics. If you have a disease where half of the people develop a complication, neuropathy in this case, right, and half don't, it definitely invites the possibility that there may be a genetic contribution. And if we can resolve that, that also gets into more personalized approaches for patients and their risk. Dr. Nevel: Thank you so much for talking with me today. I really enjoyed learning from you, and I really enjoyed your article. So again, I'm gonna encourage all of the listeners, as always, to please read Dr. Fridman's excellent article on diabetic neuropathies in the latest issue of Continuum. Dr. Fridman: Thank you for having me, and I will leave off by telling all the younger clinicians and trainees to please not just read the article, but come join. Dr. Nevel: Absolutely. Wonderful. So again, today I've been interviewing Dr. Vera Fridman about her article on diabetic neuropathies. This article appears in the October 2026 Continuum issue on peripheral nerve and motor neuron disorders. As always, please be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining us today. Dr. Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Noah A. Kolb, MD, who served as the guest editor of the October 2026 Peripheral Nerve and Motor Neuron Disorders issue. They provide a preview of the issue, which publishes on October 2, 2026. Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Dr. Kolb is a professor of neurological sciences at the Robert Larner College of Medicine at the University of Vermont in Burlington, Vermont. Additional Resources Read the issue: continuum.aan.com Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @LyellJ Full episode transcript available here Dr. Jones: The human brain is incredibly complex. That's one of the reasons we like to study it and care for patients with neurologic problems. But to translate cognition into action, we need a functioning sensorimotor and autonomic peripheral nervous system. What do we do when those peripheral systems aren't working? Today, we're speaking with Dr. Noah Kolb, guest editor of our latest issue of Continuum on peripheral nerve and motor neuron disorders. Dr. Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about subscribing to the journal, listening to verbatim recordings of the articles, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr. Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Noah Kolb, who is Continuum's guest editor for our latest issue on peripheral nerve and motor neuron disorders. Dr. Kolb is a professor of neurology at the University of Vermont Larner College of Medicine in Burlington, Vermont, where he specializes in the care of patients with neuromuscular disorders, including patients with peripheral neuropathy and other immune-mediated neuromuscular diseases. Dr. Kolb, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners? Dr. Kolb: Well, thank you very much for having me. Please call me Noah. I've been a longtime listener of Continuum, dating all the way back to when they came on CDs, so it's really a pleasure to be here. Like you said, I'm a neuromuscular doctor up in Vermont. I take care of the whole scope of neuromuscular disease, but kind of wear 3 different hats. I focus my research primarily in chemotherapy-induced neuropathy, but also do other diseases as well. Obviously, see patients clinically, and then I'm an educator as well, so I run the neurology clerkship and the acting AIs for the medical school. So, it's a fun job. Dr. Jones: Well, thanks for sharing that little bit of history on Continuum Audio, Noah. I got to be honest with you, I don't know if I've ever seen a Continuum Audio CD. If anybody out there in the audience has a Continuum Audio CD, post a picture online and we'll like and share it. I wonder how many of those are still out there. I really appreciate you not just joining us today, Noah, but also putting together this really stellar issue, a very timely update and overview of peripheral nerve and motor neuron disorders. A lot of good topics for us to dig into today. What I'm going to do before we get into questions is ask our audience Continuum Audio's trivia question. Dr. Kolb and I were talking about this before we started recording here. So, the trivia question, just to frame it up a little bit, the transthyretin or TTR protein receives a lot of attention in neuromuscular medicine as the protein behind the most common causes of acquired and familial amyloidosis. But transthyretin is known in clinical settings by a different name and checked for an entirely different reason. So, the trivia question is, what is the other common name for transthyretin? Stick around, and we'll share the answer at the end of our interview. So, let's get right to it. Our listeners know that peripheral neuropathy is common, right? It affects 2 to 3 percent of the general population and 6 to 7 percent of patients who are older than 60. In your mind, Noah, what's the main thing you would like clinicians to know or do differently in the care of these patients? Dr. Kolb: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's something that we spend a lot of time teaching our residents and working with our fellows about is understanding the right workup for people presenting with neuropathy because it's very easy to overdo it with more labs and a broader workup than you need. So, when somebody presents with sort of a garden variety neuropathy that doesn't have red flags, the important things to order in terms of a workup are hemoglobin A1C, B12, and SPEP with IFE, potentially serum light chains, and some thyroid studies as well. Because those are really the most common reasons, and then to make sure that they ask the most important historical questions, like about alcohol use, et cetera. If you're going to find a cause for neuropathy, particularly if it's slowly progressive and sensory predominant, oftentimes the answer is found right in that basic workup. Dr. Jones: Got it. And I think that's very well taken. And I think one of the questions that commonly comes up in the neuromuscular, but also in the broader neurology setting is, when you're evaluating a patient, especially an older patient who has a new onset length-dependent sensorimotor peripheral neuropathy, you've identified the neuropathy, and you're starting to consider what are those potential underlying disorders or risk factors that that neuropathy could be a warning sign of, right? So, you look for metabolic disease, B12 deficiency, paraproteinemia, et cetera. Where do you stop? In what settings do you do more expanded evaluations, genetic testing, et cetera? Dr. Kolb: Yeah, and I think this kind of goes back a little bit to the last question where the primary focus of the workup that we do is driven by the most common causes. That's why hemoglobin A1C is so important. And so, thinking through what is likely to be the cause in the specific patient setting is kind of really critical. And again, if you don't have red flags, then the labs that we mentioned previously are probably sufficient in terms of a workup. But if there are any of the other red flags, it's really important specifically because there may be treatable causes of neuropathy or things that would affect the prognosis that'd be important to understand earlier so we can make sure we either engage the right therapies or do a broader diagnostic workup. An important part of that is understanding when to use EMG nerve conduction studies and when not to. So obviously, as a neuromuscular doc who does EMGs, I'm very fond of them. But we regularly see patients in our lab who perhaps don't need one. If somebody has a sensory predominant, slowly progressive neuropathy, particularly if you have an etiology, those patients usually don't need an EMG nerve conduction study. When it's asymmetric, when there's prominent weakness, when there's a lot of autonomic symptoms, those are the times when it can be a lot more informative and helpful to try to get an EMG nerve conduction study to see if we can get at what the underlying etiology is. Dr. Jones: That's very helpful, Noah. Thank you. And so, let's think about a scenario that I think many of our listeners may have encountered in their practice. You're seeing a patient who has a somewhat rapidly progressive, painful neuropathy, which has some small fiber characteristics. They've got a little bit of autonomic dysfunction, and you worry about the possibility of amyloidosis. How do you approach that evaluation and treatment, and why is it important to think about that diagnosis? Dr. Kolb: Yeah, that's great. It's important to think about that diagnosis because we now have good treatments for AL amyloid and for ATTR-based amyloid. So, because these are treatable disorders, it's really critical that you identify them. And the reality is it's not always straightforward making a diagnosis of amyloid. As you would with any other type of neuropathy, the workup is gonna begin with serum free light chains, SPEP, trying to see if there are any monoclonal gammopathies or elevation in light chains. But importantly, you need to think about what the next diagnostic steps are and understanding how likely those tests are to be abnormal in the setting of amyloid is important as well, because the easier to obtain tests don't have perfect sensitivity. So, once you've moved on kind of from the basic labs, we think about a fat aspirate or a skin biopsy to look and see if there's any evidence of amyloid. But if your clinical suspicion is high enough, it's important to move to a sural nerve biopsy and genetic testing. That's really the best way to confirm this diagnosis. Dr. Jones: Very helpful. And obviously, that's not just academic, as it might have been at one point. This is something that we now have good disease-modifying therapies for, which leads to another question that I think our listeners may encounter in their practice. When you think about all the available gene tests in panels and other genomic tools that we have to investigate patients, when do you do a broad genetic evaluation for patients with neuropathy? Dr. Kolb: Yeah, it's a good question. It depends partly on specifically what we're looking for. I think that as with many things in neurology, one of the reasons I got interested in it, and many people did, is we like doing detective work, and the history often lies in the examination and in our clinical history at the bedside. And for that reason, often just in getting the initial history with a patient, you start to get clues that there may be a hereditary component. Sometimes it's in the history where you're able to elicit a family history of disorder, and they may or may not know that the patient had neuropathy, but it may be that somebody walked funny later in life or somebody always complained of foot pain. Or it may simply be when a patient takes their shoes off, or in Vermont, they're wearing sandals, and you see that they have characteristic changes of a neuropathy that is much more longstanding than the patient even recognizes. That's often the case with some of these forms of hereditary neuropathy because sometimes they don't have a lot of pain. And so, you see those characteristic changes in the foot, and it cues you to the need for genetic testing. In my world where I see a lot of patients with chemotherapy-induced neuropathy, I also think about it in patients who seem to be specifically sensitive to neurotoxic agents, where they get a much worse neuropathy than you would expect with exposure to drug, and it's important to consider it in those times as well. Dr. Jones: That's a great framing. I appreciate the way you put that. One of the great points in the issue is that patients who have sensory findings out of proportion to their sensory complaints, a lot of times it's worth thinking about a familial or genetic mechanism and then digging a little more into that family history, right? Dr. Kolb: I agree. Dr. Jones: Yeah. So, let's think of a different scenario. I know you do a lot of work with immune-mediated acquired neuropathies, and we're fortunate now, obviously, we have a lot of immunotherapy tools for the treatment of patients with neuropathies like chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyradiculoneuropathy. When it comes to CIDP, Noah, what's your initial approach to immunotherapy? That's one question. And another is, how do you incorporate some of the newer agents like efgartigimod? What's the role of that drug, or when do you go to rituximab or rozanolixizumab? Walk us through your approach to that. Dr. Kolb: Yeah, so I think it depends a lot on what the clinical presentation looks like and kind of what the patient's preference is. In taking care of neuropathy patients for what's been quite a while now, you find that some patients have a differing comfort level with sort of the newer drugs like efgartigimod versus some of the therapies that have been around for years and years and are tried and true. So, we know, for instance, that plasmapheresis and IVIG work well. In certain cases, we use steroids because they can work well as well, but also have long-term toxicities that you want to be aware of. It's been really exciting to see that efgartigimod is a new therapy that's on the market, and it's been a really interesting space to be involved in, in neuromuscular medicine as some of these new disease-modifying therapies have come out. The trials for efgartigimod are really exciting, and it was very important to our field when efgartigimod became available. But there have been other trials that showed similar drugs weren't that effective, and there are many studies happening right now for complement inhibition with varying results. So, it's been sort of one of these hot topics in neuromuscular medicine, trying to see what these new therapies are and figuring out how to integrate them. I find that oftentimes with patients, we'll start with the tried and true therapies like IVIG or plasmapheresis, but don't hesitate to reach to efgartigimod, particularly if it's more convenient for the patient. I think the other important point to make, and this is addressed nicely throughout some of the manuscripts, is that there are specific instances where certain drugs are preferred. So, for instance, if you're seeing somebody with CIDP that has hard-to-treat symptoms, is not responding to the normal therapies that we use, it's important to think about whether they may have a paranodal form of CIDP, in which case we often reach for things like rituximab instead because it works better. Dr. Jones: Outstanding. And so, I think that speaks to the importance of phenotyping, right? As we learn more about these acquired immune-mediated neuropathies, we're splitting, right? We're finding that the mechanisms are different in the tools that we have, the treatments are going to be more tailored, and more personalized to the patient. I think that's a great takeaway from the issue. So, Noah, you're in a unique position here, right? You're a world-renowned neuromuscular expert, and you have just edited a bunch of articles on neuromuscular medicine, peripheral nerve, motor neuron disorders written by experts in their respective fields. So, you have this bird's eye view of the specialty up to the minute, what's the latest. When you think about the entire issue, what would you say is the one topic that our readers or listeners could go to, to close the most important education gap in neuromuscular medicine? Dr. Kolb: It's a great question. It's akin to asking who my favorite child is, of which is all of them, but I would say that when Amro Estino and Ben Becker submitted their manuscript on paraproteinemic neuropathies, after I read it, I wrote an email back to them just telling them how well I thought it was organized and that it really addressed an issue that constantly plagues trainees and practitioners, is how to deal with monoclonal gammopathies and paraproteinemic neuropathies. It's a nice example of what happens when you give smart people the creative space to organize something in a way that they think makes sense. I certainly learned about the topic reading that, and I think it'd be very high yield for people reading Continuum. Dr. Jones: Totally agree. It's a wonderful article among many great articles, and that is a persistent education gap. So, I would direct our listeners to that article as well. You know, one of the things that I think about, you're an educator, I'm a clinician educator myself, thinking about the really interesting world of neuromuscular medicine, right? I have a significant part of my practice is in neuromuscular medicine and EMG, and I enjoy that very much. What do you think about trainees who might be interested in neuromuscular medicine, and they want to focus in it or pursue it as a career? How should they approach it? What does the training landscape look like from your perspective? Dr. Kolb: Yeah, that's a great question and an important one. So, I think that the case to be made for neuromuscular medicine is strong. I talk with the residents and my medical students about this regularly, but I think it's hard to find a place in medicine where the field is evolving more rapidly than it is in neuromuscular medicine, which makes it sometimes hard to stay up to date with everything that's happening, but it also makes it really interesting. To have new medicines coming online for us to change the paradigm for the way we've been treating patients for years and years is very exciting, and I think that those changes are only going to grow. Part of the future of neuromuscular medicine really is going to be in better genetic testing and broader genetic therapies. When you think about hereditary neuropathy as an example, there are tons of emerging therapies that are in pre-clinical trials and some starting in clinical trials. And so, the future of neuromuscular medicine is going to be constantly evolving where we can now treat disorders that we couldn't treat before. I mean, the easiest example is SMA, where previously that was a universally fatal disease for infants, right? And now we have treatments that are very effective. And there are multiple diseases where we're starting to develop therapies like this, so it's really exciting. From a training perspective, there are lots of opportunities for residents as they approach fellowship. There are tons of great neuromuscular fellowships around the program. I would include UVM in there as well, where there's really a wide variety of neuromuscular things that you can learn. And it's a wide and varied field, so people are learning ultrasound, which has been an emerging part of neuromuscular medicine, EMG, electrodiagnostics, Botox, but then also treating autoimmune disorders, hereditary disorders. So, it's really quite a broad field, and you can really sort of super sub-specialize into different areas, which allows you to really focus if that's what you want to do. Dr. Jones: So now it's time for the answer to our Continuum Audio Trivia question. Just to remind our listeners, what is the other common name for transthyretin? We think about transthyretin a lot, as Noah mentioned, in terms of acquired and familial amyloidosis, but what is the other name for it? Dr. Kolb, do you want to give the answer to our audience? Dr. Kolb: That would be prealbumin. Dr. Jones: Prealbumin. Again, we talk about transthyretin all the time because of the neurologic and cardiac presentations of ATTR wild type and variant transthyretin amyloidosis. But the protein itself, in the non-pathologic setting, in the non-amyloid setting, is a stable tetramer. Its normal function is to transport thyroxine and vitamin A throughout the body, but it also has a relatively short half-life. And on electrophoretic gels, it segregates near the albumin band, and therefore, for a long time was just called prealbumin because it was near the albumin band. And because of that short half-life, it's used as a rough or loose marker of nutritional status. So, all those times when I was a medical student and a resident ordering prealbumin to assess nutritional status, I was really checking transthyretin, and I had no idea. Dr. Jones: All right. So, Dr. Kolb, I really want to thank you for joining us. Thank you for such an outstanding conversation about peripheral nerve and motor neuron disease in the latest issue of Continuum. I learned a lot reading this issue. I learned a lot in our conversation today. I hope our listeners did too. I'm really grateful for your hard work taking on this issue, which I think will come in handy not only to our more junior listeners and subscribers, but also, our more experienced listeners as well. Dr. Kolb: Thanks for the opportunity to chat with you. I'm excited for the public to see the Continuum manuscripts. I think there's a lot to learn, and it's an exciting issue. Dr. Jones: I agree. Again, today we've been speaking with Dr. Noah Kolb, guest editor of Continuum's most recent issue on peripheral nerve and motor neuron disorders. Please check it out, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr. Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Circadian rhythms influence far more than sleep, affecting neurologic disease expression, treatment response, and overall health. In this episode, Dr. Sabra Abbott discusses common circadian rhythm disorders, the health consequences of circadian misalignment, and practical strategies for managing jet lag, shift work, and disrupted sleep-wake schedules. Learn how circadian biology can shape neurologic outcomes and why considering the timing of behaviors, light exposure, and treatments may improve patient care. In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Sabra M. Abbott, MD, PhD, author of the article "Circadian Neurology" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue. Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California, San Francisco in San Francisco, California. Dr. Abbott is an Associate Professor of Neurology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, Illinois. Additional Resources Read the article: Circadian Neurology Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Full episode transcript available here Dr Grouse: Circadian rhythm disruption affects many of our patients in far-reaching aspects of their general health and has likely personally affected most neurologists at some point in their career. Today, I have the opportunity to interview Dr. Sabra Abbott, who is the author of the latest issue of Continuum on Neurology of Sleep. Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Grouse: This is Dr. Katie Grouse. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Sabra Abbott about her article on circadian neurology. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Abbott: Thanks for having me. I'm Dr. Sabra Abbott. I'm an associate professor of neurology at Northwestern, and I'm also director of our circadian medicine clinic. Dr Grouse: It's really great to have you today. I definitely enjoyed reading your article, and not only did I learn a lot, but I feel like it's really applicable to a lot of topics that come up in clinic when I see patients. Now, I was wondering if you had to choose one key point that readers of your article would take away after reading it, what would it be? Dr Abbott: I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that time is an important variable in every single thing that we do. And so, it can impact when your patient's disease is at its best and at its worst, and then it also can impact when it's actually most appropriate to provide medications for your patients. There can be times where they may be more impactful and times where they may actually cause more harm for your patients. So, the short answer is think about time always with your patients. Dr Grouse: On that topic, I was really amazed to learn about the significant health risks associated with circadian misalignment, including even malignancy risks. Can you review some of these risks and why this might be the case? Dr Abbott: So, I think the risk that we have the most data for is the risk for cancer associated with circadian misalignment, and this comes from a lot of studies that we're looking at patients who are shift workers. The data has actually come back on two separate reviews indicating that shift work could be a probable carcinogen, and we think that that probably comes down to a lot of different factors. So, when you're a shift worker, you are often working in the middle of the night. You may be getting light exposure at a time when you're normally producing melatonin, and that may be one factor that is actually putting you at increased risk for cancer. Dr Grouse: And certainly, after reading this and hearing all of these things, I'm not surprised that many sleep specialists really dislike daylight savings time, which also is enough of a factor to potentially increase some of these health risks. Do you agree that daylight savings time is something that's contributing to poor health in our population? Dr Abbott: So, I think it is definitely something that almost all of us want to get rid of, and I think where everybody is in agreement is that we should get rid of these shifts in the spring and the fall. I think the only benefit to those shifts that I see is it does create a time where we start having conversations about your circadian clock, so people become aware of circadian timing twice a year when we have these shifts. Outside of that, that shift back and forth seems to be very problematic. So, we do see both in the fall and the spring an increased risk for car crashes, an increased risk for heart attacks, stroke. People perform worse at work, and so I think in general, we probably should get rid of it. There's a little bit of a debate as to whether we should go to permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time. I think most sleep and circadian scientists prefer permanent standard time. A lot of people who really like their evening activities prefer permanent daylight saving time, but I think that's also biased by the fact that daylight saving time, everybody has longer days, and I think they want longer days year-round, and you don't get that no matter which way you shift the clock in the winter. Dr Grouse: That's really interesting. I do see that debate pop up every, I guess twice every year, and I guess there is a silver lining that at least we are all talking about it and thinking about it. I wanted to take a step back about the topic of circadian rhythm disorders in general. Could you just really quickly, like twenty-thousand-foot view, summarize what these main circadian rhythm disorders are? Dr Abbott: So, at the moment, we primarily think of circadian rhythm disorders in the context of how they impact your sleep-wake timing. And so, at the largest level, we think of them as either intrinsic disorders, so disorders where your internal timing doesn't match up with the environment. The four key disorders there are advanced and delayed sleep wake phase disorders, so you're either earlier or later. You have non-twenty-four, where you actually generally get later and later each day, so it's like you're living on Mars. And then we have irregular, where you have multiple bouts of sleep that happen both night and day. And then the other two are the extrinsic disorders, so these are shift work disorders. So, you may have a normal functioning clock, but the external environment is forcing you to do things you wouldn't normally, or jet lag, where you again have a normal functioning clock, but then you end up having to shift multiple time zones faster than you can adapt to. Now, I think the interesting thing, and we can talk about this more if you want, is that we are moving into thinking of circadian rhythm disorders as being much more than just abnormalities of sleep-wake timing, and I think that's kind of where the future of the field goes. Dr Grouse: Tell me more about that. Dr Abbott: So, I think as the article gets into beyond just these kind of classically recognized disorders, we realize that circadian disruption can play a role in almost any other medical disorder that you can experience. And so, we can see circadian disruption as either a symptom or a potential cause of many other disorders. And then also in the optimal care of pretty much any patient, thinking about all of these other factors that they're experiencing on a day-to-day basis, whether it's their light exposure, whether it's the timing of their meals, whether it's the timing of their medications, all of those can play a role in their overall health and improving your ability to care for them. Dr Grouse: Now, I did find it really fascinating. This was not something that I had really been aware of prior to reading your article about the fact that it really can make a difference about when you time particular medications for particular types of neurologic conditions just related to the circadian rhythm. And really interesting was the epilepsy connection. Can you tell me about how that affects how we should be dosing anti-seizure medication? Dr Abbott: So, I think the epilepsy connection is an interesting one that definitely needs far more studies. So, at this point, a lot of this data is really coming from observational studies, looking at when patients have received medications and then how good their outcomes are. And in epilepsy, I think a lot of us tend to time anti-seizure medications so that patients get more of them in the evening and lower doses during the daytime. And I think a lot of this has been driven a little bit more by the fact that many of these medications are sedating, so we tend to put the more sedating medications at bedtime. But it turns out that outcomes in patients are actually better if they get higher doses at night and lower doses in the morning. Now, this is sort of theorizing at this point, but it could either be targets of these medications or your ability to uptake these medications across the blood-brain barrier may change with the time of day component. So, at this point, these are still really observational studies, but I think an area where we really need to do a lot more work. Dr Grouse: Well, I look forward to hearing more about other ways that we'll learn how best to manage our medications for circadian rhythm function. Now, I wanted to ask, which circadian rhythm disorder do you think is the hardest to treat, and why would that be the case? Dr Abbott: So, I'm gonna give you two answers to that. In terms of the primary circadian disorders that I see come through my clinic door, I would say cited non-24. These are patients who have normal vision, but they act as though they are living in a world without these external light time cues. And so, they, every single day, get a little bit later and a little bit later, and it's really, really hard to get them from a 25-hour schedule back onto a 24-hour schedule. The second part of my answer to that is shift work disorder, and those, I would say, are much more common patients to encounter. I think every single one of us, as we've gone through our medical training, has probably had some degree of shift work disorder, difficulty sleeping when we need to, staying awake during our shifts. But it's still really hard to figure out what we should be doing because, one, it's a multi-component system, so anything that I do to change your shift schedule has trickle-down effects to every one of your coworkers, and so we can't just tell one person, "Change what you're doing." It's also really hard to figure out what we should be doing. Should you only be working nights forever and ever and become purely nocturnal, and should we adapt everything to that, or we-- should we find some sort of compromise so that you can work the night shift but still have time to socialize and spend time with your family during the daytime? And how do we do all of that while still optimizing your health? And so, I think from a patient population, that is really a large problem we don't have a good answer to yet. Dr Grouse: Sounds like it's something that you really have to customize to every single patient who walks in and their, their particular scenarios. Dr Abbott: Absolutely. Dr Grouse: Jet lag disorders is another circadian rhythm disorder that I think we all have had some personal experience with. Any tips or tricks on how to manage jet lag going east or west, or any resources that you recommend that can help us manage this, or we can advise to our patients? Dr Abbott: Yeah. When we're talking about individualized, personalized treatment, I would say jet lag absolutely is way up there at the top of the list because it's not only a matter of where do you currently go to sleep and wake up in your current time zone, it is how many time zones are you going across to get to where you're going? Do you wanna keep the same schedule when you're at the new time zone? And all of these other factors in terms of how long you're gonna be there. When are you gonna come back? Does it make sense to fully adapt yourself to that new schedule? With that in mind, the general tips are if you are heading east, generally your goal is to shift everything earlier, and if you're heading west, generally the goal is to shift everything later. There are a lot of online calculators you can use where you can put in your current time zone, your destination time zone, and it will give you very specific information about when you should be getting light, when you should be avoiding light When melatonin may be helpful as another time cue that can help shift you. But again, it really depends on which direction and how many time zones and what time you're gonna arrive. I would say the practical tip that I have is whatever you do when you get to the new time zone, um, most of the time international travel involves overnight flights, so you may arrive in the morning. Resist the temptation to take a nap as soon as you arrive because that's just gonna make things harder and harder to adapt to. So, get out, be active, eat on the new time zone, try to push through that day, and then the homeostatic drive for sleep is gonna help you through that first night. Dr Grouse: Great tip, and definitely a tip I have failed to follow in past trips and regretted greatly afterwards. There were some other really great points that you made that as an ambulatory neurologist I hadn't thought of that was really, really helpful, including when we take care of patients in the hospital, of course, we-- we're always careful about, you know, potential sort of things we can do to minimize delirium. But in fact, there's probably a lot of things we can do to minimize disruption to circadian rhythms, which we already know that if we're not careful about, can be deleterious to health. What are some things that you recommend generally for patients who are admitted regarding monitoring and treatment that we can try to do to mitigate that effect? Dr Abbott: So, I would say the number one most important thing that you can do, and I did this every single day when I was on the wards, is when you walk into the patient's room for rounds in the morning, turn on the lights, open the curtains. We did an interesting study a few years ago because there was all of this discussion of nighttime disruption to hospital patients and a lot of concern that they were getting too much light and too much interruption to their sleep at night. But what we found out was actually the bigger problem may be that none of our patients are getting light during the daytime, and so they've just lost that amplitude of light rhythm. And so as much as you can maximize daytime and opening those curtains, turning on the lights, giving them a bunch of light during the day. And then obviously, on the opposite end, you wanna make sure that they're getting dark at nighttime. Being really thoughtful about what your patients actually need to have done while they're in the hospital. And so, do they really need to have vitals every four hours in the middle of the night? Is that gonna change their outcome, or are they just sitting there waiting for insurance to approve their rehab bed, and they're probably gonna be fine overnight without that disruption? I think those are the easy things that you can do. The slightly harder piece is there's a lot of debate about whether we really need to be doing four AM labs on all of our patients, for example. Obviously, that's disrupting everybody's sleep. It's making a phlebotomist be a shift worker. It's problematic in many respects, but at the same time, you need to collect the labs so the labs can actually be processed and you can have the results, and they can be available for rounds, and so you can discuss them so that then you can discharge the patient on time. And so, it's a whole set of moving parts that are sometimes a little hard to optimize specifically for the patient. Dr Grouse: Certainly, worth a discussion to have, though, and all really great tips. Another question kind of on that same vein. A lot of patients ask for something to help sleep at night. Melatonin is something we often give as sort of an easy, relatively gentle treatment that can help with sleep. Do you agree that that's a good idea? Is that something that you would generally recommend? Dr Abbott: So, I would say that melatonin on the overall risk versus benefit spectrum probably has very low side effects for your hospitalized patient. At the same time, we actually fought this battle here. On many of the hospital formularies, you have very high doses of melatonin, so it's five, ten milligrams. Now, the problem with that is it takes you long enough to metabolize that ten milligrams of melatonin that it is still gonna be in your system the next day. So, then you go to round on the patient the next day and they're groggy and they're out of it, and it may not be that they've neurologically deteriorated, it may still be that they have melatonin still in their system. So, if you are going to use that as sort of a first-line low-harm option, I would stick to one to three milligrams. Dr Grouse: Great. One to three milligrams is something I've often heard. Is that generally optimal dose and timing for melatonin, uh, you suggest for patients, or how do you approach thinking about the dose and timing? Dr Abbott: So, this is where it gets a little more complicated because we actually don't recommend using melatonin as a general hypnotic. It's not that great for treating insomnia in general. So, where we do more often use melatonin in circadian patients is as a phase-shifting stimuli. So, this is something that if you give melatonin at a specific time, it can either move your clock earlier or move your clock later. And that tends to be something that is a little more challenging to sort out. It's a conversation to figure out where your patient currently is from a rhythm standpoint, where you're trying to move them to. So not something I would use typically for insomnia, but more if you're trying to adjust somebody's timing. Dr Grouse: Excellent point and great recommendations. Now, switching gears a little bit, you had mentioned and you alluded earlier that circadian rhythm disruption can be something that we find in certain neurologic diseases and conditions we all treat and may even be an early sign of some of them. What are some general conditions in neurology that we see circadian rhythm disruption? Dr Abbott: So, I think one of the areas where it's often an early sign of a disorder is in neurodegenerative disorders. So, we often do see that that typical daily rhythm and amplitude, and what I mean by that is that sort of difference between how active you are during the daytime and how inactive you are at night. That tends to become dampened and more fragmented even before you start to see some of the other signs and symptoms of neurodegenerative disorders, so things like Alzheimer's. So, it often can be kind of an early hallmark that something else might be coming. Now, other ways that we can see circadian rhythm disruption in other neurologic disorders, I think probably the more under-recognized is in any disorder where a patient may have decreased mobility, sort of overall inactivity during the day. Maybe they have chronic pain, maybe they have really bad migraines, so they're spending lots of time in a dark room disrupting their sleep schedule. All of these things can lead to patients having more of an irregular pattern, so having chunks of sleep and wake that are just sort of distributed randomly throughout the night and the day, and they lose that overall rhythmicity to their behaviors, which then translates into a loss of rhythm and light exposure, a loss of rhythm in food intake. All of these things can kind of build on each other. Dr Grouse: Well, that's a really good point. You know, often we think of, you know, sleep disruption causing a lot of these problems, like migraine being a very common one. But don't think about as much of the fact that the migraine itself could be contributing to the sleep dysfunction. So, a very, very interesting point there. Now, I was curious, having read the article, what isn't in the article that you wanted to put in? Dr Abbott: So, I think the focus of this article really was primarily on the neurologic aspect of things, but I do think it's important that if people are interested in this and excited about this area, that they recognize that it's not just neurologic disorders that are impacted by this. There's a lot of really exciting research going on in the area of oncology, for example. There's some really cool research showing that the timing of your first dose of chemotherapy actually dramatically impacts your outcomes. And so, I think there are a lot of really interesting areas where thinking about your circadian system can really optimize treatment, not just within the area of neurology. Dr Grouse: That's amazing. Well, I'll be really interested to see where that heads. And then of course, on that same topic, any new treatments or diagnostic modalities on the horizon that our listeners should be on the lookout for? Dr Abbott: So, I think as a field, we are always looking for better ways of looking at circadian markers within the clinic. And so, multiple groups, including our own, have been looking at blood tests. So, is there a way that with one or two samples we can actually get a profile of what your current biological time is? And so, I think those blood tests are still being validated in patients with disorders. We've mostly looked at them in healthy controls. I think other areas we're looking at new diagnostic tools to actually get a sense of how people are responding to their environment. So, we're doing a study looking at using pupillometry, which is a way of measuring how your pupil responds to light, and using that to figure out whether you may or may not be somebody who responds well to light or poorly to light, and can we tailor your treatments for that? So, I think we're looking at many different ways that we can improve diagnostics in the outpatient setting. Dr Grouse: Well, that's really fascinating. I can't wait to hear more about what may be coming around the corner. Thanks so much for sharing, and I'm sure you've inspired some of our trainees considering a career in sleep medicine. Thank you so much for sharing, and I really again encourage all of our listeners to check out her wonderful article. Dr Abbott: Thanks for having me. It was great to have a chance to talk about this, and I second your hope that more trainees will be interested in sleep and circadian medicine. It's really an exciting field to get into. Dr Grouse: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr. Sabra Abbott about her article on circadian neurology. This article appears in the August twenty twenty-six Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Insomnia affects neurologic health, quality of life, and daily functioning, but effective treatments are available. In this episode, Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews discusses a practical approach to evaluating chronic insomnia, highlights the importance of identifying contributing conditions such as sleep apnea and mood disorders, and reviews cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), the recommended first-line treatment. Learn how addressing sleep can improve outcomes across a wide range of neurologic disorders. In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Brandon R. Peters-Mathews, MD, FAAN, FAASM, author of the article "Insomnia" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue. Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California, San Francisco in San Francisco, California. Dr. Peters-Mathews is the Section Head of Sleep Medicine at Virginia Mason Franciscan Health in Seattle, Washington. Additional Resources Read the article: Insomnia Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @BrandonPetersMD Full episode transcript available here Dr Grouse: Insomnia may be one of the most common medical issues experienced by patients, yet our knowledge about how to manage it remains limited. Today, I have the opportunity to speak with one of the world's leading experts on sleep disorders, Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews, about the latest issue of Continuum on Neurology of Sleep. Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Grouse: This is Dr. Katie Grouse. Today, I'm interviewing Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews about his article on insomnia. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Peters-Mathews: It's my pleasure to join you, and I'm happy to talk about this article. I think it's an interesting one for most folks. I am a board-certified sleep neurologist. I practice at Virginia Mason Franciscan Health in Seattle. I did my neurology training back at the University of Minnesota and my sleep training at Stanford University. I've been in practice for more than thirteen years at this point. It's hard to believe, but it's exciting to be able to speak with you today. Dr Grouse: This is definitely an important topic for everybody. Certainly, sleep and the lack of it affects all of our patients, and I can't imagine there's a single clinical neurologist who doesn't have to answer questions and help evaluate patients with this problem, so very high-yield topic for everyone. Now, having read your article, I'm curious if you had to choose one key point that you want the readers of your article to take away after reading it, what would it be? Dr Peters-Mathews: Emphasize for my patients that insomnia is a condition that we can work through and resolve, that if we really can understand the underlying contributing causes and resolve those issues, we can typically improve sleep. It's a process. It takes time. It takes some attention and, and sometimes even testing to figure out what's going on. But if we can dial into these root causes, we can typically help somebody to sleep much better. As part of that, we often employ a therapy called CBT-I, which we'll talk about here a little bit later. But that also helps us to identify some of these contributing factors that are leading to the poor sleep. Dr Grouse: And I definitely want to talk more about CBT, it's such an important topic. But even before we get into that, I'd love it if you could just walk us through a hypothetical case of a patient with insomnia. I think the type of patient that I think we've all seen in our clinical practice and somebody who says, "You know, I've had poor sleep. I've had insomnia for many years. I've tried all of the things you're supposed to try. You know, I've tried sleep hygiene. I've tried this. I've tried that. I've tried medications. Nothing seems to work." Could you walk us through how you would evaluate a patient like this and start to consider what to recommend? Dr Peters-Mathews: So, some simple information that we can gather, would be information about when they're trying to go to bed, how long it's taking them to fall asleep initially. If they wake in the night and have trouble getting back to sleep, how often they wake in the night. If they're experiencing early morning awakenings, their final wake time, and when they actually get out of bed in the morning. That gives me a sense of the structure of their sleep pattern and whether or not they might be spending an excessive amount of time in bed for their own sleep need at their current age. The other factors that we might consider are sleep disorders, and typically, I would assess for other symptoms that would point me towards sleep apnea or restless legs and occasionally other disorders of sleep. We wanna make sure we're not missing comorbid conditions that might be affecting that person. These often include mood disorders. Sleep and mood walk hand in hand, and so anxiety and depression are important to identify and treat if present. We also want to make sure someone's not suffering from chronic pain or other conditions that might be impacting their sleep. So, I take a broad approach. I ask the same questions to each patient that comes to see me. I wanna make sure I'm not missing some of these details. And then some of these folks will require testing to further understand their sleep. Others may move on to a different therapy, and long-term may require even other interventions, including medications, to fully resolve their condition. Dr Grouse: You mentioned in your article circadian rhythm sleep disorders. How often are these really a factor in patients with chronic insomnia? And do you think that's something that we as kind of first-line clinicians should be screening for as well? Dr Peters-Mathews: So delayed sleep phase syndrome is the most common circadian disorder, and these are folks who are night owls by nature. They often develop their sleep patterns, as teenagers, if not before, and they may fade away in the working years but come back in retirement age. I would say that's a very common condition. It may affect as many as one in ten people. The other circadian disorders are pretty uncommon, so advanced sleep phase syndrome, where somebody is sleepy early and waking too early, that may only affect one in three hundred people. There are other conditions that affect specific populations, like non-twenty-four circadian pattern affects blind people. Typically, half of blind people have that condition. There are conditions that affect the regularity of sleep, so an irregular sleep-wake pattern that might occur more in folks with maybe an advanced dementia. So, there are populations where these conditions can be fairly common, but among the general population, that night owl tendency is by far the most common. Dr Grouse: That's really helpful. And just taking a step back, why is insomnia bad for us? So, we worry about this in our patients. We know it can make neurologic issues worse. But in general, like, what are the reasons that having poor sleep can affect our health? Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah, and it's not enough hours, certainly quantity, but also quality of sleep that matters. And I tell people that sleep is a pillar of health, just like nutrition and exercise. It's the other main contributor to our health and well-being. And so, it has its fingers in almost every aspect of our health. Insomnia on its own is a risk factor for other psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, even disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia. Folks with insomnia are more likely to have alcohol or drug abuse issues and are at higher risk for things like chronic pain, suicide and, and social and occupational dysfunction. So, it's a disorder that has a really profound effect on how someone functions during the day, and again, may take a toll on their health over time. Dr Grouse: That makes sense, and I would assume that there are certain populations within our neurology practices where we should really be attuned to the risk of insomnia. Are there specific populations you'd recommend really make it a habit of screening for insomnia? Dr Peters-Mathews: I was joking with someone recently that anyone with a neurological nervous system can have issues, impacted by poor sleep. There are certain groups, so chronic headache patients are perhaps one that might warrant a further evaluation and management. Folks with multiple sclerosis or Parkinson's may have physical conditions that lead to more discomfort in sleep, fewer movements of their body in sleep, issues around nocturia that would disturb their sleep. Certainly, those with dementia, Alzheimer's disease and other dementias. Parkinson's and Lewy body dementia overlap a lot, as does multiple system atrophy. That can point us towards other conditions like REM sleep behavior disorder, but also insomnia can be an important feature of those disorders as well. And then folks with stroke often have disturbance to their sleep and may develop insomnia after experiencing a stroke. So those are specific populations where I think the yield is high to be looking for insomnia and other sleep disorders. Dr Grouse: Yeah, that makes sense. I think a lot of us think of insomnia as almost like, make sure we're not missing this as sort of a mimic of the problem, when in fact it's probably just more part and parcel of the problem and something we need to be thinking about treating as part of their disorder. So helpful to think about it in that light, at least in my own mind. Now, I want to get a little bit back to some of the therapies you've recommended, and I think first just stopping again at sleep hygiene. Your article has a really great list, I think, of sort of like a checklist of actions that people should be taking to make sure that they are managing their sleep hygiene well. And I definitely recommend our listeners look to that. How often do you think that focusing on sleep hygiene helps when you get a patient who says, "Hey, I have got terrible sleep. You know, what do I do?" Dr Peters-Mathews: It's pretty common for people to have access to this information through their own reading online, and most folks have worked through this by the time they've come to see me, and often a primary care provider or specialist may have given some of this guidance as well. It's pretty rare for them to not recognize something as obvious as having caffeine too late in the day by the time they're coming to my attention. The sleep hygiene generally is used as a control when we do research to look at how something like medication is working or CBT-I might be working. It's the comparative control. It's almost like the null intervention. So, it's not highly effective, and if folks are not finding it helpful, they've made those adjustments to their sleep environment or their habits, and they're continuing to have issues, there's typically more that needs to be done, and that's where CBT-I really comes in as a strong intervention for those people. Dr Grouse: And then getting on the topic of CBT-I, so helpful. I'm really glad that your article spent a lot of time talking about it as really a truly high-yield, great intervention for insomnia. And I really felt that the question shouldn't be: When is cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia helpful? But like, when isn't it helpful? What are your thoughts about that? Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah. I always point out that the American College of Physicians has recommended CBT-I for adult patients as the initial treatment for chronic insomnia even before the use of a medication for nearly ten years. That recommendation came out in July of 2016. So, there are folks who may not be good candidates for it, who may be screened out because of other conditions that they have, and there certainly are folks who don't do as well with CBT-I. And adherence is important. Somebody needs to be able to follow the instructions and apply that to their lives. And certainly, there are a number of things that could interfere with that compliance. I would say untreated anxiety and pain are two things that often trip people up. It's like running a race with a broken leg. Despite their best efforts, if those are not addressed, they will continue to have issues around insomnia. And then one thing that often is unrecognized and may be missed is untreated sleep apnea. That is a common contributor to a chronic insomnia, especially in older folks, women beyond the age of menopause and men even starting in middle age, thirties and forties. We don't want to miss sleep apnea. Even insomnia that's, "I can't fall asleep at the beginning of night," that could still be sleep apnea, so that's something I really emphasize with my patients. Dr Grouse: Really great reminder about sleep apnea for sure. Something that always is beneficial to make sure we are not missing. Oftentimes I'll bring up a CBT for insomnia, and what is that? Like, what would we actually do, and what is a high-level overview of what happens with CBT-I? Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah. So, I generally tell my patients that this is a six-week program. It's a structured program, almost like a boot camp for sleep, in which we are addressing underlying causes, recognizing what those are and, and working through those underlying causes. There is often tracking using a sleep log or sometimes wearable data.To guide decisions that are made in the program. It's very goal-directed, science-based therapy. We often introduce concepts around sleep drive, circadian rhythm dealing with a busy mind at night. There's concepts of mindfulness and relaxation training that are introduced. People often are able to taper or stop using sleeping pills as part of this therapy. And the nice thing is they walk away with a set of skills that they can apply the rest of their lives to sleep more normally. And so, there's good research that suggests even years after someone's completed a CBT-I course, they continue to sleep more normally. They have the tools that they need to sleep better even years beyond that education. Dr Grouse: You know, this just sounds so great. It almost sounds like why wouldn't someone benefit from this? But of course, like I would imagine many institutions experience, I've definitely run into difficulties with access for my patients for CBT-I, and we have long wait lists. And I imagine there's many places where there just aren't even any specialists that patients can get to, to help with this. What are the resources that our listeners can take advantage of for their patients to get access to these types of therapies? Dr Peters-Mathews: So, one thing I tried to really emphasize in the article is that there are resources that can be drawn in. I'll give you some examples. So, at our institution, we have three sleep specialists, full-time sleep specialists, who trained at Stanford to become CBT-I specialists, and so we have more resources than probably most institutions would have. We do shared medical appointment workshops so that we can manage the number of patients that we have to see. And, and unfortunately, not everybody has that opportunity. You might plug into resources in your community, and one of the resources I point to in the article is the International Directory that's managed by the University of Pennsylvania that has eight hundred and seventy-five CBT-I specialists listed with contact information, et cetera. And I think that's an amazing opportunity to access this therapy. Unfortunately, there are countries and certainly states that do not have a specialist, that there's no one in the state that provides this therapy. And then we need to extend other resources, and that could be online treatment programs that can be done independently, bibliotherapy, so accessing books that could guide people through the therapy, even accessing other apps and maybe even wearables that pair with an app that could provide some of this guidance. The Veterans Administration worked with Stanford and worked with the National Center for PTSD and developed an app called CBT-I Coach that is free and can be downloaded and, and gives, I think, good education, good guidance. So, there are resources that exist. It's somewhat finding what might work for your individual patient, how they're preferring to access this or their learning preferences. Do they want to read a book or not? And getting them into the right pathway. Dr Grouse: And I think that gets me into a whole other Pandora's box of the fact that they're already out there in the world are tons of different apps, wearable devices, all sorts of things that promise that they can help us with sleep, some that may have more, I think, data and evidence behind them than others. Do any of these apps or wearables in your mind show promise in our patients helping our patients track and diagnose and manage their insomnia? Dr Peters-Mathews: Yeah, there's a lot out there, and unfortunately, some of these devices actually can make sleep worse. People can develop a condition called orthosomnia or straight sleep, where they're trying to perfect their sleep and their sleep numbers, their metrics, and the wearables feeding them data that they continue to try to improve upon. And that fixation on those metrics can actually make their sleep quite a bit worse. A lot of these wearables and apps and other resources have not been well-studied. There's not research trials showing outcomes comparing to other standards of care. I would say the basic guidance of CBT-I, which many of these programs are based on, I think will be helpful to the majority of folks who are able to engage and complete that education. A lot of these are not dependent on that sort of framework or structure so that we may not actually be using the standards of CBT-I to try to improve sleep. They may be connecting you with other resources, like listen to this sleep story or this relaxation file or do some meditation, et cetera, which again, may be of some benefit, but it is not the same as a structured CBT-I experience. So, I think there are a few good resources that we highlight within the article, and I think there are probably others coming that may give individuals a more individualized, directed approach to managing their sleep issues. But it's almost like going to the App Store and there's thousands of apps. It's hard to know which one might be most based on science or the most beneficial to that individual. Dr Grouse: Well, I really appreciate in your article that you did have a great list of apps and things along those lines to try, so I do encourage our listeners to check that out as well. Some really, really great resources there in the article in many different areas. Now, I wanted to turn the conversation to a slightly different thing, which is medications for insomnia. Now, when are medications appropriate for treating insomnia? When should we be thinking about turning to these for our patients? Dr Peters-Mathews: So again, we would suggest that CBT-I would be first, and that failing improvement with CBT-I, that medications would be extended to a person affected by insomnia. And over-the-counter options as well as prescription medications might be used. Unfortunately, that's not how things unfold in the real world. Many people are jumping to medications first, whether that be an over-the-counter supplement or other medication, or they're seeing primary care and other specialists who's providing them a prescription for sleep aid. So there's data from the CDC going back to twenty twenty that suggests that about six point three percent of adults were taking a sleeping medication every day in the months prior to the survey. And women who were older than sixty five, white women, were more likely to be using a sleeping medication every day. That number was 13.5 percent of those surveyed. So, lots of folks are on medications, and certainly melatonin is widely used. Unfortunately, it's not regulated by the FDA in a sense that we don't have exact concentrations controlled. So, people can take melatonin that has no melatonin in it. They might take melatonin that's forty or more times the dose. There's variance within lots from the same manufacturer. There's a lot of trouble knowing exactly what you're getting when you try to take something like melatonin over the counter. Other sleep aids that we might reach to over the counter, like variants of diphenhydramine or doxylamine, and these are often the PM drugs that we think about. They have risks associated with population-based studies which suggest risk of dementia, risk of falling, risk of mortality with these drugs, especially in older populations. So again, that would give us potentially pause. The prescription medications that we go to, there are some that the American Academy of Sleep Medicine would recommend as more beneficial than harmful, and some are good for both initiating and maintaining sleep. Some have such a short half-life that they're really best as initiation drugs. And then others are better for maintenance of sleep, so reducing awakenings and wakefulness in the night. My own individual take, often people are coming to me on medications, typically over the counter, but often prescriptions, and have even tried and failed many of those medications before they finally come to see a specialist. And so, I don't often reach to medications until I've exhausted CBT-I, until we've completed a sleep test to make sure we're not missing something like sleep apnea, until we've ruled out some other potential contributing causes. But there are patients I have who really will not sleep without medication support and sometimes even multiple medications that work in complementary ways to try to normalize their sleep. And so, in some cases it is necessary, but it is not meant to be a first line for anyone. Dr Grouse: Yeah, and I think all of our listeners can relate to the fact that we often see patients who've been on sleep medicines for many, many years and take them every night. It's good to know that there is sort of a procedure here to consider and perhaps again, back to the plug to CBT-I as being the right starting point to see if there's some that we can help get off of these meds, although, as you mentioned, maybe not always going to be successful. Well, I really appreciate our conversation about this. It's been really great to read this article about insomnia. Again, I encourage our listeners to check it out. Some really great resources for many different therapies, thinking about other alternative diagnoses and different medical conditions where insomnia really needs to be considered. And I really appreciate you writing this article. It's been a pleasure to talk with you today. Dr Peters-Mathews: It's my pleasure to share this information with folks, and I hope that you find it useful in your clinical practice or even your personal life as the need arises. Dr Grouse: Again today, I've been interviewing Dr. Brandon Peters-Mathews about his article on insomnia. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Advances in sleep technology are transforming how neurologists identify and manage obstructive sleep apnea, a condition that affects up to 70% of patients with certain neurologic disorders and can negatively impact cognitive and neurologic outcomes if left untreated. In this episode, Dr. Joyce Lee-Iannotti discusses the growing role of wearable and nearable sleep-monitoring devices, when home sleep studies are appropriate, and how emerging technologies are expanding access to diagnosis and treatment. Learn practical strategies for screening patients, interpreting sleep data, and partnering with sleep specialists to improve long-term neurologic health through better sleep. In this episode, Casey S. Albin, MD, FAAN, speaks with Joyce K. Lee-Iannotti, MD, FAAN, FAASM, author of the article "Sleep Diagnostics and Monitoring Technology in Obstructive Sleep Apnea" in the Continuum® August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue. Dr. Albin is a Continuum® Audio interviewer, associate editor of media engagement, and an assistant professor of neurology and neurosurgery at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia. Dr. Lee-Iannotti is a Professor of Neurology at the Barrow Neurological Institute, University of Arizona College of Medicine, and Creighton School of Medicine in Phoenix, Arizona. Additional Resources Read the article: Sleep Diagnostics and Monitoring Technology in Obstructive Sleep Apnea Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @caseyalbin Guest: @jleeiannotti Full episode transcript available here Dr Albin: Through the neurology of sleep issue, I think we have all been convinced that we all need better sleep, both for ourselves and for our patients. And fortunately, there is an abundance of new technology that can enable us to diagnose sleep problems, and then also make sure that our patients are getting the rest that's going to give them the best chance at a good cognitive recovery, and improve their cognitive function even if they are not currently suffering from a neurologic condition. Today, I am so excited to dive deeper into this topic. Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Albin: Hello, this is Dr. Casey Albin. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Joyce Lee-Iannotti about her article on sleep diagnostics and monitoring technology in obstructive sleep apnea. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on neurology of sleep. Welcome to the podcast, I'd love to just start by having you introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Sure. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Albin. I'm Joyce Lee-Iannotti. I'm a professor of neurology at Barrow Neurological Institute. I am boarded in general neurology, stroke, and sleep, but I spend most of my time in the sleep world, so I jokingly say that I get more sleep doing sleep than I certainly did in stroke. Dr Albin: Absolutely. I mean, wow, what a fascinating career, and I suspect that we're actually gonna get to some of how all of those pathophysiologies might overlap in the world of sleep. But you had the really exciting task of trying to distill this exciting, rapidly evolving field of sleep diagnostics, and I suspect it's relevant to many of the patients who end up in the neurology clinic, and I suspect that it's actually pretty relevant to many of our listeners who themselves might actually be wearing sleep tracking devices. And all of us probably wonder, well, how can we use that data to improve our own cognitive function and certainly make our patient's life even better? Before we even get into some of the meat and potatoes of this, I thought it would be really helpful for us to define some terms that come up in your article, one of which is wearables. We might figure that out, but the other is nearable. Walk us through what's a wearable, what's a nearable, how are they different? Dr Lee-Iannotti: I'm happy to do that. First of all, the article is entitled Sleep Diagnostics and Monitoring Technology, and this was a super fun article for me to write because it's very practical, and it's generalizable to everybody. So, I'm going to start with a wearable, and a wearable is really a device that is simply worn on the body. And we're all familiar with wearables like smart watches, they're rings, they're patches, they're headbands, and the most validated form of a wearable that you've probably heard about is actigraphy, which we use in the sleep clinic. Dr Albin: Tell us a little bit more. So, what is actigraphy? I've heard the word before, but don't actually know what it means. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Actigraphy has been a tool that we've used in the sleep clinic for a really long time. Traditionally, we used it to monitor circadian rhythm patterns in people who are night owls or morning larks. And then more currently, we actually use it to track sleep patterns in people with suspected narcolepsy. So, before they come in for a sleep study, we actually have them wear an actigraphy for about a week just to get a sense of their sleep duration and their circadian pattern. Dr Albin: Got it. And what is it monitoring? Our movement or the patterns that we may or may not make? Dr Lee-Iannotti: It's really based on movement. You're exactly right. Dr Albin: Cool. Okay, so most of this is based on gold standard monitoring with actigraphy. What other things can be incorporated into these wearable devices? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Yeah, the technology is really advanced, and every day it changes, which is super exciting. So, on top of movement, these wearables can look at temperature. They can look at even EEG, like limited EEG, heart rate variability, and a really big word that we like to use in sleep technology, which is PPG, or photoplethysmography data, and that's really looking at heart rate variability and oxygenation, saturations, and following those levels as well. Dr Albin: Wow, so you basically can get most of the data that you might have historically needed to go to a sleep lab to get. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Most of them. They're still a surrogate. You'll hear me emphasize in the article as well that the gold standard remains the in-lab polysomnogram, but these are good surrogate markers that patients can wear long term to look at trends and patterns. Dr Albin: Absolutely. And we're gonna unpack a little bit about who specifically those are best for and, really what it gives you in the clinic. But before we jump into that, what's a nearable, and how is that different? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Yeah. Nearables are really exciting too. So, these are devices that monitor sleep but don't require direct contact on the body. So, these are devices that our patients will use, but it'll be at the bedside table. They're devices that actually go underneath the mattress, or they can be in, like, the ambient environment to detect sleep patterns. Dr Albin: Oh my gosh. How is it doing that if it's not actually something you're wearing? Dr Lee-Iannotti: I know. It seems a little Big Brother-ish, doesn't it? Dr Albin: Yes. Dr Lee-Iannotti: So, they use a technology called radio frequency signals, sometimes radar, sometimes sonar, pressure sensors, even microphones, and they're picking up things like respiration, movement, snoring, and that's how they can decipher sleep patterns. Dr Albin: Crazy. I mean, I guess the benefit of that is that it's less disruptive to the user 'cause it's not actually on them and having contact with them, and I suspect there's probably some downsides in terms of just it's a more limited data set you're getting. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Absolutely. Yeah, you're exactly right. It's more convenient because it's not touching them, so, in theory, they're gonna sleep more comfortably. But I would like to think that the most validated forms of devices that we use to track sleep have to have some form of contact with the body, and this technology is new and probably needs a few layers of more sophistication to be as accurate as the wearables. Dr Albin: Absolutely. I feel like we're going to have this conversation in five, maybe even less than that, years, and this data will have become like, oh, we all have something in our room that's monitoring everything. The world is crazy. All right. One of the places where your article really stood out to me is that sleep diagnostics have really taken off, particularly when we're thinking about obstructive sleep apnea. And I think we all might sort of scratch our heads and be like, "This is a neurology podcast. Why should I, as a neurologist, care about obstructive sleep apnea?" But I think you laid out a very convincing argument in the article. Walk us through why we should care about this. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Absolutely. So, for neurologists, sleep matters, and I hope that my article translates that. Obstructive sleep apnea, which I'm gonna call OSA, is incredibly common in all of our neurologic patients, whether you see epilepsy, Parkinson's, stroke, Alzheimer's, neuromuscular, or even chronic headache patients. The prevalence of sleep apnea is as high as 70% in these patients. Dr Albin: Wow. That's incredible. That is an incredibly high number. Dr Lee-Iannotti: And if I can add, Dr. Albin, there's growing literature in multiple studies across the literature that show that untreated sleep apnea negatively impacts neurologic outcomes in our patients. So, it is really important to ask the question about sleep, and if the red flags pop up, to then screen for sleep apnea in particular. Dr Albin: I think that that's a great point for us to drill down on, and obviously you're a sleep neurologist. You're very used to screening people in the clinic. But say someone comes in, and I'm gonna have you put your former stroke hat on, and say someone comes into the stroke clinic, and you're just making sure that they're optimized on their aspirin or dual antiplatelet therapy, and you're doing secondary risk modification. How would screening for OSA fit into that? Dr Lee-Iannotti: It would be a part of that screening process to look at preventative ways to prevent strokes, whether it be primary or secondary prevention. So, we did a survey a while back, and it actually showed that 17% of stroke neurologists are screening for sleep apnea. It has quadrupled, fortunately, in the last few years due to public awareness and a lot of education that the AAN has done, in fact. So, at this point, I would say not asking about sleep apnea to a stroke patient is similar to not asking about diabetes. Dr Albin: So, we really have to be cognizant and conscious about saying, you know, "Do you snore at night? Do you have episodes of apnea, or does someone witness you stop?" Are there things that you ask that maybe I wouldn't be aware and thinking of? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Those are the right questions, and then very practically, very easy questionnaires to implement that literally take a minute that your nurses or medical assistants can administer to the patient, and the most commonly one that is used in stroke patients is called the STOP BANG, S-T-O-P B-A-N-G, which is a validated questionnaire to screen for symptoms. Dr Albin: Absolutely. So okay, so this is easy to do. We should all be doing this. If you're not, now's the time. And I suspect if they screen positive, next steps, it can be hard to get into a sleep lab, and we're gonna talk about some workarounds, but I think some of our listeners may never have spent time in the actual sleep lab. So, let's say you refer a patient and you actually can get them in for a gold standard in-lab sleep study. What's gonna happen in that sleep study? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Yeah. And I just want to preface this by saying that my article hopefully highlights that we've come a long way where we understand that there are many neurologic populations then that can undergo home ambulatory sleep studies with just as much accuracy as an in-lab polysomnogram. But with that, I wanna say an in-lab polysomnogram is actually a highly sophisticated physiologic recording overnight, typically, unless somebody is a day sleeper. So, if I could take a minute to kinda describe the data that we're monitoring throughout the night. There is a limited EEG. We concentrate on frontal, central, occipital leads to look at sleep staging. We have eye leads. We have EMG leads on the chin and the leg. We look at EKG, flow monitors, belt, and then we also do pulse oximetry, snoring mics, and even body position sensors. So, a lot is going on. Dr Albin: This is incredible. Yeah, it truly is. I mean, this is like... I'm a neurointensivist, and so I think that you have just really outdone what I consider multimodal monitoring in your sleep study patients. I'm not even sure our neuro ICU patients accumulate that much data. All right, so tell me, they go through, and they can get this. But like you said, there's actually a lot of data that you've presented that, you know, not everyone needs to go to the in-lab sleep study. So how do you decide who actually needs to be in a sleep lab versus who can do this at home? And then how do you set them up with getting this done at home? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Yeah. The home sleep studies are really more accessible ways for us to assess for sleep apnea in our neurologic patients, especially patients who live in very rural areas and don't have access or have very long wait times for an in-lab polysomnogram. With that being said, though, Dr. Albin, I will say that there are a subset of patients who have to go into the lab, and those are patients where you suspect a sleep disorder other than obstructive sleep apnea, so like parasomnias or central sleep apnea, patients with severe cognitive or physical debilitation, like our stroke patients who are hemiplegic and won't be able to apply the home sleep study. But for the most part, I do feel like a home sleep study is a good beginner study to screen the patient. And if there are red flags, then you can always get the in-lab afterwards. Dr Albin: That's super helpful. And just from a pragmatic standpoint, will insurance cover the home sleep study? Dr Lee-Iannotti: They will, yes, and it's all about documenting. So, if I could get really practical, for neurologists, it really just requires documenting snoring, for one, whether it's noted by the patient or by their bed partner, and then any form of hypersomnia, which is daytime sleepiness or even a sense of fatigue, having low energy or napping during the day. Dr Albin: I suspect so many of our patients meet those criterias. That seems, like, wildly simple to do. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Yes. And if you wanna be the favorite referral person to your sleep neurologist or your sleep specialist, then take another step and do that STOP-Bang. And if you record a score greater than three, that automatically gets them at least a home sleep study. Dr Albin: It's amazing. And then when you get this data, again, this is really practical, pragmatic stuff, how do you get the report? Does it integrate in your electronic medical record? Does the patient bring it in? How do you get that data back? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Yeah, so this is where technology is amazing, Dr. Albin. Now we have disposable devices. Sometimes they sync to the WatchPat, or the greater Wi-Fi. So we can get them all through password-protected internet forums that transmits the data, so sometimes the patients don't even have to come back to give us the data. And then we have different forms where we can actually relay the results as well, either through the electronic medical record or through systems themselves to relay those results directly to the patient. Dr Albin: Yeah, and your article really laid out in beautiful tables, like, all the different devices that are available to patients, and it's honestly mind-blowing how many of these companies and devices exist. So, seems like the world is your oyster in terms of picking from them. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Absolutely. I think there's... The last time I counted, there was over 20 different home sleep study devices for obstructive sleep apnea. And it's a great thing to have, but sometimes too many choices can be a little bit confusing. So that's where I do say partner with your sleep specialist close by, and they will find the right type of home sleep study device for your particular patient. Dr Albin: Drilling down a little further, let's say your patient does get diagnosed with OSA. One of the things that really stuck out to me is that there's a whole range of now devices that are new that make this treatment easy so that we can actually prevent and treat neurological conditions by just improving patient sleep. So, walk us through a little bit about how that landscape has changed. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Sure. And I'll start with the gold standard of treatment, which is still CPAP, which is continuous positive airway pressure. Not only can we monitor the pressure, look at adherence, change the humidification for the patient all remotely through, again, password-protected internet forums, but we can even change the pressure with patients 300-plus miles away. Dr Albin: Wow. Dr Lee-Iannotti: It's really cool, right? It prevents patients, especially with significant neurologic debilitation, from having to come into the office for adjustments. The other thing I wanted to mention, Dr. Albin, is for patients, a lot of patients like positive feedback on a daily basis. And a lot of these companies, if you are on CPAP, have come up with a smartphone app that you can look at how many hours you used your CPAP device. They give you a score, and they even tell you how many times you had stoppage of breathing that night. Dr Albin: I think that this is what's really exciting about where we are in neurology and, like, neurologic care, is we have gotten so much better at getting patients their own data and allowing people to really see that data, integrate lifestyle changes, and see how it impacts them. And that positive feedback loop, I think, is a really powerful tool for our patients to say, "Look, this makes me better," or, "Oh, this makes me worse." I'm just really excited by how much data we can give directly to our patients. Dr Lee-Iannotti: I agree. It's so empowering. You know, as a CPAP user myself, you want that positive affirmation that all of your efforts at night and cleaning your mask and your machine paid off, and everybody likes to see an A+ on their report card. Dr Albin: I love that. Now I'm going to ask you on the flip side, I imagine, and I myself am a sleep tracker, like I have my little device and I look at, you know, the score in the morning and I kind of perseverate on like what makes it better, what makes it worse, and I can imagine that sometimes in sleep clinic, people are coming in to you and they have just pages and pages and, you know, they're flipping through all their data from the last year. And I imagine that's pretty overwhelming when you have just the insane amount of data that these devices can generate. So, from another pragmatic, practical standpoint, how are you integrating all that data when someone comes in for a sleep visit? Dr Lee-Iannotti: I love that question. So first of all, I will say myself, and I think a lot of my sleep colleagues, we love objective data, right? Because it's something that we can see. We can see whether it matches their subject's symptoms. Sometimes it can be a lot of reassurance that, "Look, you actually got more sleep than you thought you did." But sometimes patients will bring in like a month's worth, and that's really hard to analyze, you know, in a 30 or 60-minute visit. So oftentimes what I do is I look at like the last week or last two weeks, and I look at trends. And I think a lot of the apps for whatever device you decide to use have done a really good job in terms of visual graphics to show how much sleep on average you're getting, how much deep sleep or REM sleep or wake-up times that you have. So, I, again, I feel like the technology has really helped us consolidate a lot of data, but also be efficient with the messaging that we relay to our patients. Dr Albin: Absolutely. And I know personally, at least for the sleep tracker I wear, it also allows you to diary. So, you can say like, "Oh, last night I had a glass of wine," or, "Yesterday I had a really hard workout," or, "I stayed out late with friends," or, "I was on call." Turns out call is really, really bad for my sleep. But it does allow you to sort of track what behaviors, and I wonder how much of that informs what you're counseling patients to do in terms of trying to notice the things that either improve their sleep performance or their subjective feeling of restlessness or restfulness, and how all of that plays into what you're doing in the clinic. Dr Lee-Iannotti: I love all of those comments. It is validation for the patient. Again, it's empowering for them to look at, what did I do last night to get more REM sleep than the night prior? I want to mention that the best people who do this so well are professional athletes, and they look at, how am I going to cater my day to make sure that I'm sleeping well, that I reduce my risk of injury and concussion and increase my reaction time? And I feel like all of us should do that. That's such a great philosophy, to analyze how we can do things better. Dr Albin: I love that. This whole issue, but this article in particular, really emphasized to me that sleep, again, it's not a passive time that we're taking a nap. It's a really active form of sort of neurologic healing. There's important removal of toxins through the lymphatics. And like there's a lot happening in sleep, and there are so many more tools that allow us to unpack that sort of peak performance of sleep, which again, sort of is that athletic mentality of like, how can I make this better? Not just to treat a neurologic condition, but also really importantly, to prevent one. Dr Lee-Iannotti: I often refer to sleep as icing on the cake. With our patients, when you're doing everything right, for example, a multiple sclerosis patient, they're on the right medications, they are exercising, they're participating in rehab, their mood is good, but they're just not getting to the quality-of-life metric that they want to be, it usually is sleep. And if you can add that as a neurologist to your piece of the algorithm to help your patient, it really does improve their quality of life and ultimately their neurologic outcome. I'm a true believer of that. Dr Albin: I was a true believer. I've been made even more of a true believer through your article and getting to talk to you. I always like to close by asking the person I'm interviewing, what's one really exciting thing in this field? What are you kind of most looking forward to as you think about sleep medicine and its impact in neurology in the next five or 10 years? Dr Lee-Iannotti: Oh, I love that question, too. So, the thing I'm most excited about in the field of sleep, and specifically sleep neurology, is the power of preventative care. When I did a lot of stroke, I would see young people, older people, healthy people, people with a lot of genetic risk factors come in, and one minute they were totally normal. The second minute, they're paralyzed and can't speak. And for a lot of these patients, I would ask, "Why am I seeing you now? Why couldn't I have seen you 10 years earlier, worked on risk factors, and prevented this outcome?" And I truly believe that is exactly where sleep lies. If you work on sleep, whether you're an adolescent, 20 year old, 30, et cetera, you are ultimately going to prevent horrible cardiovascular, cerebrovascular, neurologic diseases in the long run. Dr Albin: So important. I really want to direct our listeners back to your article because all of the articles are really practical, but this one in particular looks at how do you do this? What are your options? How do you get this to patients? It really is sort of a step-by-step guidebook on like, A, why this is important, how you should screen, what you should do if someone screens positive for needing to have a sleep study.There's so much more technology that allows really anyone anywhere to have access to the testing that they need to get the right diagnosis, to improve their sleep, to improve their cognitive outcomes, to improve their neurologic health. It's pretty amazing. Dr Lee-Iannotti: It is amazing. And in the article, I do allude to certain devices and then websites that are very helpful. If I can announce, Dr. Albin, I'm super excited about this. Through work with the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, endorsement with the AAN, we are coming out with a new clinical guideline specifically on home sleep study devices and looking at the validation studies. So, I think that's going to be very helpful. But I hope that everybody after listening to this picks up the phone, call your friendly sleep specialist, and align with them and partner with them. And this will ultimately help your patients, I guarantee it. Dr Albin: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr. Joyce Lee-Iannotti about her article on sleep diagnostics and monitoring technology in obstructive sleep apnea. This article appears in the August 2026 Continuum issue on Neurology of Sleep. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners, and thank you, Dr. Lee-Iannotti, for joining us today. Dr Lee-Iannotti: Thank you. Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audiocme. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Karin G. Johnson, MD, FAAN, who served as the guest editor of the August 2026 Sleep Neurology issue. They provide a preview of the issue, which publishes on August 3, 2026. Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Dr. Johnson is a Professor in the Department of Neurology at the University of Massachusetts Chan School of Medicine–Baystate and the Sleep Medicine Division Chief at Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, Massachusetts Additional Resources Read the issue: continuum.aan.com Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @LyellJ Guest: @drsleepykarin Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr. Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about subscribing to the journal, listening to verbatim recordings of the articles, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Albin: All right, welcome all. For the first time ever in the history of Continuum Audio, we are coming to you live from Chicago here at the AAN annual meeting. And now over to your host, the one and only editor-in-chief, Dr. Lyell Jones. Dr Jones: Welcome, everybody. My name is Lyell Jones, editor-in-chief of Continuum, and I'm here today with Dr. Karin Johnson, and we're interviewing Dr. Johnson for the upcoming and recently published issue of Continuum on Sleep Neurology. We have been doing Continuum Audio for a while, but we're doing something different this time. As our listeners online can tell, we are recording this for the first time ever with a live studio audience at the American Academy of Neurology annual meeting in Chicago, Illinois. So, this is a fun experience for us. I hope it's been fun so far for you, Dr. Johnson. Dr Johnson: Great to be here. Dr Jones: It's great to have you. So, before we get into the interview, I do wanna introduce our team here for the live recording of the podcast. You've already heard Dr. Casey Albin's voice. Dr. Casey Albin is an associate professor of neurology at Emory University. Also serves as one of our associate editors at the journal and one of our Continuum Audio interviewers. So, she's going to be working the crowd today. Let's have a round of applause for Dr. Albin. And our guest of honor today is Dr. Karin Johnson. Dr. Johnson is a professor of neurology at UMass Chan Medical School and, Baystate Medical Center in Massachusetts. She is a world-renowned expert in sleep neurology and is the guest editor for the most recent issue of Continuum on Sleep Neurology. Dr. Johnson, welcome. Why don't you introduce yourself to our audience? Dr Johnson: You did a great introduction, but I'm a clinical sleep medicine specialist. Spend my days seeing patients, taking care of people with narcolepsy, sleep apnea, restless legs, everything that comes my way. And then I have a side interest in doing sleep medicine advocacy, especially for permanent standard time. Dr Jones: And we may get to that. I mean, that might be part of our conversation today. So, you've now read all of the articles in this issue, and it's a really great issue. There's a lot of new developments in sleep neurology. There are some updates for clinicians, people who see patients with sleep disorders that I think are, are timely and important updates. You have this unique view because you have just read all of these articles, really good articles by expert authors. When you read through these, Dr. Johnson, what was the biggest, what was the biggest thing that surprised you? Dr Johnson: I think the biggest surprise for me is just so many changes in, in all of these articles. I realized how easy it was for us to make a journal that is so different from a few years ago. Whether it's Dr. Stahl's obstructive sleep apnea and new ways to think about endotyping sleep apnea that is gonna have treatment implications or the new treatments that are out there like tirzepatide, the changes that we're having with restless leg treatment. I particularly wanted to have a chapter on circadian neurology that Dr. Abbott did a great job really highlighting how if we think about the timing of when we give meds, the timing of when we eat, how that really can help neurological health, brain health, overall health, as well as mental health and cognition, especially as the AAN thinks about brain health as a whole, not just treating our patients, but how we can treat the population of people by improving sleep. I like how we hit on all these different areas in this issue. Dr Jones: And I don't know how you managed to do it. They're just a small number of articles. We cover a lot of existing territory with well-characterized diseases, with new advances. But there's a lot of new stuff in sleep, and so somehow, it's all packed in there. It's really impressive. One of the things I was gonna ask you about was an evolution, and this has been a number of years now in how we manage restless leg syndrome. When I was training, it was all about dopamine agonists, and that was your first line. And over time, the evidence has supported moving away from that, and now we have more recent guidelines that have come out, and it's really the alpha-two delta-one calcium channel antagonists. How is that transition going? Do you still see people in practice who come in on dopamine agonists? How is that going? How's the field responding to that? Dr Johnson: That's one of my most frequent restless leg consults. So even though it's been years since I have really initiated dopamine agonists in my patient, every day we get in people often on very high doses of dopamine agonists, and their doctors have just been escalating and escalating these meds over the years, and they come in with horrible augmentation. Their symptoms are much worse than they used to be, happening earlier in the day. And so, trying to get these patients off of these meds that are addictive, the way I like to teach about it is these dopamine agonists are the Fioricets of the sleep world. We know they work great, but in the long run, the patients are gonna be worse overall. And so, it's so hard to get people off these dopamine agonists, just like it's so hard to convince a headache patient that they don't need their Fioricet and that they're gonna be better off if we can get them off of it. What I think has really changed is we have more options to use. So, the alpha-delta-like agonists like gabapentin are now considered first line, but there's a lot of patients who they just don't work well enough with or they don't tolerate. And so, what do you do in that case? It's easy when that works, but and, when that doesn't work, we are being much more aggressive these days with iron replacement, potentially even trying to push ferritin levels in refractory patients up to three hundred, and using IV iron rather than just oral iron to get over the absorption issues to get the brain levels high enough. Motor stimulators, little cuffs that kind of go around the leg and stimulate the peroneal nerve in a certain way that not only can give people immediate relief, but also some data that suggests that over time it actually lessens their restless legs. We have agents like dipyridamole that work on the adenosine system in a sort of new novel pathway at addressing restless legs. And then the opiates, often meds like methadone or Suboxone can be used in some patients. But as we're getting more of these other options, often we don't need to go to those levels because we do have more to work with. Dr Jones: So, the key point is lots of options. We're not starting with dopamine agonists anymore. And I think the fact that you're still seeing a lot of patients who have been initiated on that probably tells us there's an education gap field that we need to work on. So, another thing that I noticed reading through the issue was, and this feels like a change over the last few years, is the availability and the tendency to use in-home sleep apnea testing as opposed to formal, traditional in-lab. And that feels like a great new option, and maybe that increases and improves availability for patients who need access to the test. But how do you work through that? Dr Johnson: So, I love in-home testing. We've been using it for over a decade. Other parts of the country where insurances didn't sort of mandate it are now being more mandated. I think the real change happened for a lot of places over the pandemic when labs closed down. But I think it's good because it brings a lot more patients to us. They get tested, they get tested quicker. People who would say, "I would never go into a lab. Oh, I'll do a home study." So, it just does bring more people in, and it gets them to treatment that they need that can really be life-changing. But it's not for everybody. The biggest people are people that have other bad pulmonary issues. If you're on oxygen therapy, you should not be getting a home study. That really should be a group of people that come in the lab. Similarly, if you have bad COPD, you probably should be getting a full in-lab study, so we can get more monitoring. Central sleep apnea is an interesting one. It can be very hard in some cases to differentiate the centrals and obstructive nature as well on a home study. Doesn't mean you can't do a home. So, if it's a person that just can't get an in-lab study easily, maybe you start with the home. If it looks purely obstructive, and you're all set, then you got an answer, and you can move on. But if you get back a home study that looks questionably central, they're gonna need to come into that lab. So, if you already know they're high risk because they're on narcotics, cause they have congestive heart failure, it's usually worth going straight to the lab. But again, you may consider a home study based on the patient. Patients that really cannot use the equipment can also be an issue. So, if they've had a debilitating stroke and have no one to help them put on that device, or cognitively they just can't handle the device, they're gonna be someone who's gonna benefit from coming into the lab and getting the help from the techs. So, those are the big populations that you might go starting for a home. And then the other thing that confuses a lot of people, the home is only for diagnostics. It really isn't for treatment. So, I have patients that say, "Oh, like, you can just titrate my CPAP with a home study." No. So if it's a treatment decision where they're not doing well on treatment, or I need to figure out do they need CPAP or BiPAP or IVAPS or one of these more complicated treatments, those are people that are gonna need to come into the lab to get that treatment portion of the evaluation. Dr Jones: What a great summary. That's like everything I needed to know about who do I need to bring into the lab and who do I think maybe could do an at-home study. Really great. And speaking of devices, I think all of us who see patients in the room here and our listeners out there online have experienced patients, and this feels like a very recent phenomenon to me, are coming in with their commercial at-home wearable device. And they have printouts sometimes, and they show me their phone, and they give me some numbers that I don't really know how to interpret. Reading through this issue, I learned a couple of great new words. I learned about orthosomnia, right? So, people who become so preoccupied with their sleep, it keeps them awake at night, literally, right? I mean, it's a complete paradox. I learned about nearables, so things that aren't necessarily wearables that are just in the room while the patient is sleeping that monitor proxies for sleep quality, sleep stage, and other things. And I frankly, I'm not really sure what to tell patients. So, what do you tell patients who come in with all the data? Like, or how do you tell patients to use these? Dr Johnson: I think these devices can go both ways. So, I do kind of say the pros and cons of these devices. I think for a lot of patients, they're empowering. It's getting them to think about sleep, to wanna know how good their sleep is. Are they getting enough sleep? So, if it's used in those ways, it's gonna be very helpful. I actually had a patient last week, and they noted that they're having big desats all night and could show me essentially an overnight oximetry data rather than me having to order it, and I had days of data, which sometimes can be too much. But in this case, it's like, oh, when he was on his side that night, he looked a lot better, so I can use that to give advice to the patient about particular treatments. He actually went down to Mexico, and a doctor friend gave him oxygen therapy while he was there randomly. And we could see on the nights that he had the oxygen therapy, it did really help his central sleep apnea pattern. And so that pushed us towards saying, "Let's qualify you for that up here in the States." So, I think in some cases it can give really important data. Now, I saw a posting on social media the other day of someone saying, "Can I get advice on how to improve my REM sleep? My tracker says I have no REM sleep, and I need to do something about it." There's really not data to support needing to do something about it. And so, I do think it can get some people on these wild goose chases, trying to get to a certain percentage of sleep. And these trackers, they're good in a lot of ways, but they're not perfect. He could be getting REM sleep that the tracker on him does not show. You want to relate it to what symptoms are they having. I think they can be very good for trying something out. So, let's say someone, has their tracker telling them they get five hours of sleep, and they try this intervention, and that helps them show that they got the seven hours of sleep, or they went from no REM to REM and it goes in the right direction. It can help give them that positive feedback that something they're trying, is working. But the absolutes for any given patient, it's hard to over-- What does it mean if it says you've got a 50% score versus a 70% score? That may or may not be meaningful in any given person, but again, they can compare themselves to themselves. If they were a lower score and now they're a higher sleep score because they did something that was meaningful, and that goes along with them feeling better, that can help give them that positive feedback to do something good. Dr Jones: So, a little bit of a mixed picture. Dr Johnson: Yeah. Dr Jones: Sometimes they help. Sometimes they distract. Hopefully- Dr Johnson: And as a provider, sometimes it can be overwhelming because they're like, "Come look at my year's worth of data." And you're like, "No." Dr Jones: Yeah. Dr Johnson: You know, let me see one page or two pages of data and be like, "Yep, okay, I get it." Dr Jones: Just show of hands in the audience, who in the room wears a sleep device at night, like a ring or a, some kind of sleep monitoring app? That's about half the audience. Dr Johnson: This is why they're here. Dr Jones: So that's really helpful, and I think it is. You want to be supported by the data. You want to be supported by evidence and high-quality biometric evidence. Another big trend, and this has been a number of years in the making, is the understanding, Dr. Johnson, of the relationship between sleep physiology and neurodegenerative disease. One of the things I love about neurology is there's still so much left to learn about the normal physiologic functioning of the brain. So glymphatics and other aspects of sleep physiology that we didn't know about a decade or two ago. When you think about how that relationship has developed, sleep physiology, maybe sleep disorders and neurodegenerative disease, how has that changed your approach to talking to patients? Do you counsel patients differently now because of what we understand better about that? Dr Johnson: Yeah, I mean, we are still limited with our data. We have so many studies that show the associations between whether it's not enough sleep, too much sleep, or having a sleep disorder like obstructive sleep apnea, and that being a risk factor for stroke or Alzheimer's or Parkinson's. But we still sort of lack the treatment trials that necessarily say, "If you treat obstructive sleep apnea, you're gonna have less dementia," or, "You're gonna be less likely to have that stroke." So, we have a lot of physiological studies, a lot of reasons why it makes sense, but we don't have that final, nail in the coffin to say, "If you do this, you'll definitely be better." So, we know certain groups are more at risk. If you have obstructive sleep apnea and you are symptomatic, you seem to have higher cardiovascular risk. If you have a person who's had a stroke and we find a milder case of sleep apnea, and they're someone that's totally asymptomatic. They say, "I sleep fine. I feel fine." There's not great data to say, "If you treat your sleep apnea, you're gonna be less likely to have a stroke." Now, if they come in and they're sleepy and their sleep apnea is really severe, and they have more hypoxic burden, which is also more connected with a lot of these risks, I'm going to say, "I think you are in the higher risk group of sleep apnea people who it's probably gonna be more likely to help your cardiovascular risk, your dementia risk." We can counsel them, and then it's really a personal decision. Some people are like, "No way. I'm never gonna use a CPAP machine, ever." And other people are like, "You know, my mom had a stroke. My dad had Alzheimer's. I want to do every possible thing I can to make it less likely that I have this outcome that I want to avoid." And so, you're going to take that in to, you know, do you want to try this treatment or not? It's a lot easier when you have outcomes that you can follow, like, "If I try CPAP, does my blood pressure get better? Do I stop having AFib attacks?" It's a lot harder when, will I or not get Alzheimer's ten years down the road or have that stroke? Dr Jones: It's hard to get people to do things for kind of an abstract prevention down the road, but could be important. Are there trials going on that are going to assess this data? Dr Johnson: Yeah. We currently have a big trial getting people right away, right after their stroke, on CPAP, and not only looking at prevention, but also looking at recovery outcome. It's been running for several years. Hopefully, we'll get enough data to close out the study coming up. Dr Jones: We'll look forward to that. Dr Johnson: Yeah. Dr Jones: So, I'm really excited to get to our audience here, but before we do that, I do want to ask Dr. Johnson one more question. Dr. Johnson is famous for her advocacy for sleep in general, but specifically related to Standard Time. So, let's do a little experiment here. I didn't warn Dr. Johnson about this, so we'll see how she does. She does a ton of advocacy. She's a pro. So, pretend like we're in DC, and I'm a senator, and we just got in an elevator. You're going to give me your elevator pitch on what we should do. Dr Johnson: So, you know, sleep is one of the few essential things in life. We need to eat, we need to drink, we need to have clean air, and we need to sleep and when we improve sleep, we can improve basically every outcome, whether it's academics, whether it's productivity, whether it's our physical health, our mental health. And the problem is we structure our lives in a way that really keep people, and especially our teenagers, from getting the sleep they need. And one of these structural things we do is permanent daylight savings time. Essentially, what you're doing is you're putting the sun out later, makes it harder to go to bed. I was just talking to someone, the sun's going down at 9:00, and you need to get your kid to sleep at 7:30, 8:00 so they can get the amount of sleep they need. That is almost an impossible task because their circadian rhythms are being pushed later, they can't fall asleep on time. Then you're setting their clocks an hour earlier, so when that alarm clock is going off at 6:00 AM in the morning, it's actually 5:00 AM in the morning. You're squeezing sleep from both sides, and it's basically impossible to get enough sleep. A lot of people think the only problem with daylight savings time is twice a year with the changes, and there are certainly harms related to that. So, a lot of people think if we went to permanent daylight savings time it would be better, and we got rid of those changes. What they don't realize is that permanent circadian misalignment by setting the sun more ahead, at 1:00 to 2:00 instead of at noon causes the sleep and circadian disruption all year round that leads to increased incidents of strokes, of heart attacks, of obesity, of cancer, of suicides, of depression, of worse academic grades. Again, pretty much every outcome you have there that relates to brain health, we have now data that shows that it's worse. And so, we can improve our lives if we can go to permanent Standard Time. Dr Jones: You convinced me. How about that? If there were any skeptics in the room, I doubt there are any left. We only went to like the fifth floor there, and she... I'm like, "I'm voting for this. Whatever, whatever this bill is, I'm gonna vote for it." So, I'm excited to get to the audience here. Before we get to questions and answers, and we want you to get your questions ready for Dr. Johnson. I do have a couple of trivia questions. And we've been doing this for a little while now on the podcast. The first trivia question actually relates to arts and culture. Dr Jones: What famous artist used transitions between sleep and wake states to inspire his art? Anybody know? Guest Speaker 1: Is it Van Gogh? Dr Jones: Not Van Gogh that I know of. There in the back. Guest Speaker 2: Picasso. Dr Jones: Picasso, not that I know of. Right here. Guest Speaker 3: Salvador Dali. Dr Jones: Salvador Dali. We have a winner. Thank you for your answer. So apparently, I read this. Salvador Dali would sit in a chair holding onto a metal key and wait until he fell asleep, and it would fall out of his hands and drop into a bowl, and it would wake him up. So, then he would pick it back up, and he would go in and out of sleep trying to generate hypnagogic hallucinations, basically, and he would use that to inspire his art. And you think about his art, maybe that kind of makes sense. All right, now I've got a neurology trivia question. Okay, so maybe we're a little more comfortable with the neurology trivia in here. What is the center in the brain that is responsible for REM sleep atonia? Guest Speaker 4: The receptor is for erection in the lateral hypothalamus. Dr Jones: That is not correct. REM sleep atonia. Right here. Guest Speaker 4: Emilio Malgona, Hyannis, Massachusetts. Dorsal raphe nucleus. Dr Jones: We'll give you credit for that. Very good. Excellent. So, the- Dr Johnson: Well, no. That's actually the serotonin. He's talking about another one. Dr Jones: Oh, I thought I heard, I thought I heard- Dr Johnson: You heard dorsal Dr Jones: ... I heard dorsolateral tegmental nucleus of the pod. Dr Johnson: Not quite. Dr Jones: You get a prize anyway, sir, just for, just for answering. Thank you very much. All right. So, we're all warmed up here. So, Dr. Albin, what do you think? Should we get some questions from the audience? Dr Johnson: All right, we've got some questions. Guest Speaker 5: I have a statement and a question. Dr Jones: Please tell the podcast your name again, sir. Guest Speaker 5: Steve Spar, New York City. The tyranny of the morning people. You don't want people, you don't want the sun to go down too late because it'll keep people up longer. I spent my whole life fighting people like you. I am a nighttime person. Why do I have to go to sleep earlier? I want to go to sleep later. I want to wake up later. I don't want to wake up at 7:00 in the morning. I want to wake up at 10:00. There's a certain tyranny that we must use circadian rhythms of the majority, and it persecutes people like me who are night people. Dr Johnson: So that is a great question. Guest Speaker 5: What say you? Dr Johnson: What say me is actually the harms of daylight savings time are actually to the night owls, and don't really affect the morning people. I can still go to sleep on time and get up on time without that pressure of needing to go to work. The night owl people, they can't fall asleep until later. They want to sleep in earlier, but we're forcing them to get up an hour earlier for work and school. And because we're doing daylight savings time, you're not getting the morning light you need, you're getting too much light at night, and you are more sensitive to a delay in your circadian rhythm, which makes you even more of a night owl and increase the degree of social jet lag. So, we actually see that the harms and risks of things like depression, cardiovascular risks are much greater in night owls than they are in normal people or morning larks. And this is again why the risks are the highest for our teenagers, who are essentially all night owls. You're making it harder for them to fall asleep on time. You're making them more and more of a night owl that it becomes more out of line with our standard social schedule. So, what we can do for a night owl is say to our schools, say to life that we want to change our society norms of getting up early. But that has nothing to do with daylight savings time. That has to do with how we make our schedule Dr Jones: All right, next question. And introduce yourself to the audience. Guest Speaker 6: Sure. I'm Sanjay Rathi from New Haven area, Neurology. Movement disorders, Parkinson's disease, sleep disruptions, sleep-regulating REM, RBD issues, what are your recommendations? And as things get worse, what additional intervention should we do? Dr Johnson: Yeah, I think it's hard with a lot of our neurodegenerative disorders, it's a two-way sleep. The disorders themselves often worsen sleep quality, have decrease in their sort of circadian amplitudes, and so that can affect sleep ability. And so, trying to do the things that promote sleep, like getting lights down in the evening, keeping things dark and quiet, doing cognitive behavioral sort of therapies if that's needed can all be helpful. Very high incidence of obstructive sleep apnea or other sleep-disordered breathing, whether it's Parkinson's or other neurodegenerative disorders, so evaluating and treating that if need be. And some of these people, especially as they get later on, you may end up considering medication for insomnia because their underlying disorders was causing it and there's, and you're not going to CBTI your way out of it. We do have the new orexin antagonist sleep agents, which are more recommended for older people and probably safer agents than your Z drugs and some of the other sleep meds out there. So, some people should be on some of those meds if their sleep is so disrupted. I've seen some sleep studies where it's basically like wake, sleep, wake, sleep, wake, sleep all night long. And it's like, wow, you really cannot sustain sleep, and we think it's not just a behavioral thing. I think it is part of their underlying Parkinson's and underlying disorders that can really cause major sleep disruption. Dr Jones: It's a great question. Before we get more from the audience here, Dr. Albin, I'm just curious, you know, you got some questions from online. Don't know if any of those stood out to you. And the other thing is, I think about your practice, Dr. Albin, as a neurointensivist, there's some great content in this issue on how to maintain an adequate sleep environment in the hospital and the importance of that for the acute episode, maybe for some long-term outcomes. When I was reading the article, I didn't really didn't think about the ICU setting. That must be-- what do you do in the ICU? Dr Albin: Well, we happen to have a question about just that. Dr Jones: Well, there you go Dr Albin: From Dr. Manners of Baltimore, Maryland. "What meds should I be giving patients in the ICU or the inpatient setting to preserve or recalibrate their sleep-wake cycles? Is there anything that we can do besides just getting them out of bed during the day?" Dr Johnson: Meds are always hard cause as sleep doctors, we're usually the last one to recommend meds. But there are situations and scenarios where meds may be appropriate. I can't say what's one better than the other, and some of the meds we have probably aren't even available as options in the hospital. So, the, you know, again, the orexin antagonist may be a good class to try to use, but they may not be an option. There was a good study that looked at empowering the patient and whether or not the ICU patients are empowerable. But they give a card to the patients in the hospital and say, "Tell your nurse to turn off my TV and my lights. Do I need all the blood draws all throughout the night, or can it be put off to the morning?" And trying to empower the patient to ask for these things and do some of the behavioral things. And they found that doing that did improve the duration of sleep, did reduce some of the number of awakenings that people ended up having at night. So, I think the ICU is a very particular population where there's a lot of things you can't get rid of. But certainly, turning on the lights, turning off the lights, and trying to limit noises as much as you can, in those night hours, trying to give some sense of a 24-hour day. The other thing is feeding is really important to circadian rhythms. I had a patient that had a brain bleed and, after it, she just her circadian rhythms were just off, and part of it was she was getting tube feeds through the night. So, one of the very first interventions we did was to move her timing of her feeding so that it wasn't in sleep, and that really did help make a difference in getting her back on a pattern, along with light therapy and other behavioral techniques as well. Dr Jones: It's a great question. Dr Albin: Absolutely. I mean, I think that validates just that we spend a lot of time actually asking like, "Can we feed people during the day?" Or, "Can we, can we limit the amount of baths that are happening at 3:00 in the morning?" We also had another one from the audience that came from Dr. Lavina Singla of Mississippi, and I think a lot of our patients are asking this question. Is melatonin addictive? Dr Johnson: Is melatonin safe? Is melatonin addictive? I think with any sleeping aid, people become addictive to what they perceive is the outcome. So, if they said, "This got me to sleep, and now I'm sleeping great, I don't want to come off of it." And so, you get this to meds that are truly addictive, but even meds that aren't felt to have that addiction, there is certainly a behavioral change. And that's a lot of what cognitive behavioral therapy is working with these patients on, is challenging that belief of maybe it isn't the med, maybe it's your internal belief and your worry about doing this. One thing about sleep is sleep happens when you are relaxed and calm and not worried. When you're worried about thinking that thing you're worried about is whether or not you're getting sleep, then you don't sleep. In terms of melatonin, if you don't need to use it, I wouldn't use it. If you are gonna use it, I'd try to use as low doses as possible. Do we know all the risks? We don't know. And especially I think there are potentially more risks in a growing child than, maybe someone who isn't having the same sort of hormonal, needs and growth needs. But then again, if you have, let's say, a kid with autism and melatonin helps him sleep, I'd much rather use melatonin than a lot of other agents, and if that really changes their functionality, that probably is very good for them and better than having them not get sleep. So, I think you have to weigh each individual situation and combine it, especially with the behavioral approaches so that hopefully this is not a long-term addictive thing you're on. Dr Jones: So, it's complicated. Sounds like it. Dr Albin: Not a straightforward answer. Dr Jones: I thought that was gonna be just this hard no, but I guess it is something you have to think about. So, I want to really take a minute here to thank Dr. Karin Johnson, who has been our interviewee for this episode of the Continuum Audio Podcast sleep issue just came out. Really want to encourage our subscribers, our listeners, and our studio audience here to enjoy it. Thank you, Dr. Johnson, for joining us today. I want to give a big round of applause to Dr. Casey Albin for managing this crowd. Thank you to our listeners. Thank you to our subscribers. Thank you to you all for coming today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr. Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.