In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

In this heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with longtime colleague and dear friend Deirdre Fay, a pioneering voice in somatic and attachment-based trauma treatment. Reflecting on nearly three decades of shared work, they revisit the early days of trauma therapy—when integrating the body, creativity, and relational healing into psychotherapy was still considered radical.Together, Janina and Deirdre explore how healing from trauma requires more than revisiting painful memories. They discuss the importance of building safety first, helping clients develop the capacity to “notice” rather than become overwhelmed by their internal experiences, and using the body as a gateway to compassion and connection. Their conversation touches on the power of externalization, the role of creativity in trauma treatment, and how shame often emerges not as a personal flaw but as an attachment wound.This episode offers a rich and deeply human reflection on how trauma treatment has evolved—and how healing happens through tiny steps, community, and learning to turn toward what nourishes us.Safety is the foundation of trauma healingHealing involves both body and mind“Notice you noticing” is a powerful therapeutic skillShame is often an attachment woundCommunity reduces isolation and shameDeirdre Fay believes that a good life is not an accident, but the result of consistently choosing compassion, connection, and inner growth. She invites people to experience life itself as a kind of modern-day Bodhisattva training — learning to listen deeply to the inner wisdom that can guide us through life’s challenges and transitions.Her work resonates with those who appear successful on the surface yet privately struggle with shame, anxiety, depression, emotional distress, or repetitive relationship patterns. Through a transformational methodology developed over more than forty years of clinical practice and teaching, Deirdre offers practical pathways toward building what she calls a Solid, Steady, Secure Self.Rooted in trauma therapy, attachment theory, yoga, and contemporary neuroscience, Deirdre integrates modern therapeutic approaches with wisdom traditions to help people transform suffering into a more fulfilling life. More recently, she has been exploring the use of creative arts as a way of externalizing inner experience and helping people find words for what has previously remained unspoken. Her work has been described as “a radically positive approach to life.”https://www.dfay.com/Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery: Simple, Safe, and Effective Practices for Therapyhttps://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906

In this illuminating conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with Bruce Ecker, co-developer of Coherence Therapy and co-author of Unlocking the Emotional Brain, to explore the powerful role of implicit memory in shaping trauma and human behavior. Together, they challenge the long-standing focus on traumatic events themselves, shifting attention instead to what was learned from those experiences—and how those learnings continue to live on in the body and nervous system.This episode offers a nuanced, practice-informed look at how therapists can access and shift implicit emotional learning, while also inviting listeners to reconsider how patterns, symptoms, and suffering may reflect meaningful adaptations rather than pathology. A must-listen for clinicians and anyone interested in the deeper mechanisms of healing.Trauma lives on through implicit emotional learnings, not just memories of events.Implicit memory drives present-day experience.Cognitive understanding has a limited impact on subcortical, implicit patterns.Lasting change happens when lived experiences directly contradict implicit beliefs.Effective therapy works gradually, allowing clients to access implicit material without overwhelm.Current experiences provide an accessible entry point into implicit memory.Repetitive behaviors and emotional responses reflect stored learning, even without explicit recall.Letting go of long-held implicit beliefs may bring relief, but also mourning for the life shaped by them.Bio:Bruce Ecker, MA, LMFT, is co-originator of Coherence Therapy, co-founder and co-director of the Coherence Psychology Institute, and coauthor of Unlocking the Emotional Brain: Memory Reconsolidation and the Psychotherapy of Transformational Change; the Coherence Therapy Practice Manual & Training Guide; and two other books and numerous peer-reviewed journal articles. Since 2006 he has driven the clinical field's understanding of memory reconsolidation as the core process of transformational therapeutic change, and has developed the application of this brain research breakthrough for major advancements in therapeutic effectiveness and psychotherapy unification. He has taught in clinical graduate programs, is a frequent presenter at conferences and workshops internationally, co-leads the Institute’s annual training intensive, leads several ongoing case consultation groups, and leads the Institute's team of research associates. Show Notes:https://www.coherencetherapy.org/Bruce’s peer-reviewed journal articles provide rigorous accounts of matters he mentions in this conversation with Janina, for example:Ecker B. A proposal for the unification of psychotherapeutic action understood as memory modification processes. Journal of Psychotherapy Integration, 34, 291–314. https://doi.org/10.1037/int0000330 Download>>Ecker, B., & Vaz, A. (2022). Memory reconsolidation and the crisis of mechanism in psychotherapy. New Ideas in Psychology, 66, 100945, 1–11. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.newideapsych.2022.100945 Download>>Ecker, B., & Bridges, S. K. (2020). How the science of memory reconsolidation advances the effectiveness and unification of psychotherapy. Clinical Social Work Journal, 48(3), 287–300. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10615-020-00754-z Download>>Key Takeaways:

In this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD, sits down with David Grand, developer of Brainspotting, to explore how healing happens when therapists learn to trust the client’s nervous system rather than trying to direct it. Together, they reflect on the origins of Brainspotting, the role of observation and curiosity in clinical work, and the importance of what Grand calls the “dual attunement frame”—the integration of relational attunement with neurobiological attunement.David shares the story of how Brainspotting emerged from a moment of careful observation while working with a performance block in an athlete, and how that moment led to a therapy model grounded in focused mindfulness, somatic processing, and deep respect for the client’s internal healing process. Throughout the conversation, Janina and David explore uncertainty as an essential part of therapy, the limitations of therapist-driven models, and the power of following the client’s natural processing rather than trying to lead it.This episode is a rich conversation about humility in clinical work, the intelligence of the nervous system, and the ways trauma therapy continues to evolve as clinicians learn to listen more deeply—to the body, the brain, and the therapeutic relationship.Brainspotting developed through careful observation of clients’ natural processing rather than from a predefined theory.The “dual attunement frame” emphasizes that the therapeutic relationship comes first, followed by neurobiological processing.In the face of the nervous system’s complexity, therapists must work with curiosity and humility rather than certainty.Healing happens by trusting the client’s internal process and allowing the nervous system to lead.Somatic and subcortical processing may be the deepest form of trauma healing—even when it doesn’t involve conscious insight.

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinician, author, and attachment specialist Dafna Lender, LCSW, to explore the power of relationships in healing trauma—especially for children and families. Known for her work with TheraPlay and her book Integrative Attachment Family Therapy, Dafna shares the personal and professional journey that shaped her approach to therapy.Together, Janina and Dafna reflect on how attachment disruptions and early relational trauma affect emotional development, and why healing must often involve not only the individual child but the entire family system. Their conversation highlights the importance of play, attunement, and embodied connection in helping children feel safe enough to heal. They also discuss how clinicians can support caregivers in becoming active partners in the therapeutic process, fostering deeper connection and long-term change.Warm, thoughtful, and deeply human, this dialogue invites listeners to consider how connection, curiosity, and relationship remain at the heart of effective trauma treatment—for therapists, families, and the children they serve.Key TakeawaysHealing developmental trauma often requires working with the entire family system, not just the child.Attachment and relational safety are foundational for emotional regulation and growth.Play and experiential interactions can help children access connection and healing in ways that traditional talk therapy cannot.Supporting and empowering caregivers is essential to creating lasting change for children.Integrating body-based and attachment-focused approaches helps clinicians address trauma at both relational and physiological levels.Bio:Dafna is a family therapy expert and attachment specialist. Dafna is an international trainer and supervisor for practitioners who work with children and families. She is a certified trainer and supervisor/consultant in both Theraplay® and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy (DDP), as well as an EMDR therapist. Dafna’s expertise is drawn from 29 years of working with families in many settings: at-risk after school programs, therapeutic foster care, in-home crisis stabilization, residential care and private practice. Dafna’s style, whether as a therapist or teacher, is combining the light-hearted with the profound by bringing a playful, intense and passionate presence to every encounter. Dafna is author of Integrative Attachment Family Therapy (2023) and the co-author of Theraplay the Practitioner’s Guide (2020). She teaches and supervises clinicians in 15 countries in 4 languages: English, Hebrew, French and Spanish. Website:https://www.dafnalender.com/Book: Integrative Attachment Family Therapy: A Clinical Guide to Heal and Strengthen the Parent-Child Relationship through Play, Co-regulation, and Meaning-Making

In this moving conversation, trauma therapist Janina Fisher speaks with grief expert David Kessler about the evolving understanding of grief and its deep connection to trauma. Reflecting on his work with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and his own personal loss, Kessler shares how the concept of a sixth stage of grief—meaning—emerged. Together, they explore why grief is never linear, how compassion supports healing, and how loss can gradually be integrated into a life that continues to hold love, purpose, and connection.Key Takeaways:Why grief is not a linear processThe meaning behind the “sixth stage” of griefHow trauma and loss intersect in healingWhy compassion and connection matter in grief recoveryDavid Kessler is one of the world’s foremost experts on grief and loss. His decades of experience with thousands of people on the edge of life and death has taught him the secrets to living a happy and fulfilled life, even after life’s tragedies. He is the author of seven books including his latest bestselling book, Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief, as well as a new Finding Meaning Companion Workbook. He co-authored two books with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, Life Lessons and On Grief and Grieving. He co-wrote You Can Heal Your Heart with Louise Hay and also wrote Visions, Trips and Crowded Rooms: Who and What You See Before You Die. His first book, The Needs of The Dying received praise from Saint (Mother) Teresa. His new online model of grief support, Tender Hearts, offers over twenty-five online grief groups. David leads one of the most respected Grief Educator Certification programs. He is the founder of Grief.com.show noteswebsite Grief.comsocial media instagram@Iamdavidkesslerfacebook@Iamdavidkessler

In this intimate, wide-ranging conversation, Janina Fisher and therapist, educator, and former child refugee Linda Thai explore what it means to live, work, and speak from a body shaped by war, displacement, and structural oppression—while also becoming a “celebrity” in the mental health world. Together they name the “mental health speaker celebrity industrial complex,” the imposter parts that never quite go away, and the quiet cost of being placed on a pedestal while still longing to feel like you truly belong.Linda shares how her refugee history lives in her nervous system as future-oriented survival strategies—like always carrying her passport or mapping exit plans in response to the current political climate in the U.S.—and how the wilds of Alaska, dogs, and the rhythms of land, seasons, and subsistence living have slowly helped repair her sense of safety and synchrony. Janina reflects on privilege, boundaries, and learning to let in applause and appreciation, while Linda names humiliation as a core, often unnamed wound in the experience of being “othered.”For clinicians, this conversation offers both personal and clinical wisdom: how we think about refugee and immigrant clients, how we recognize non-human relationships and nature as sources of attachment and regulation, how we soften the “white gaze,” and how we bring more heart, soul, and judicious self-disclosure into our teaching and therapy spaces without losing our professional center.Imposter syndrome doesn’t just “go away.” Janina and Linda normalize imposter feelings as lifelong companions—especially for those who did not grow up with a gut-level sense of belonging—and explore how purpose and mission can coexist with ongoing self-doubt.Humiliation as a core wound of othering. Linda names humiliation as a central, under-discussed wound in collective experiences of racism, xenophobia, and being cast as “unwanted,” beyond the more familiar language of shame, self-loathing, or harsh inner critics.Refugee trauma as future-oriented survival strategy. Linda describes always carrying her passport and planning an exit route as trauma-shaped, future-oriented strategies that live in the present—illustrating how political conditions can re-activate refugee terror and planning.Privilege and the “mental health celebrity industrial complex.” Janina reflects on learning about privilege through collaborations on implicit bias, and both she and Linda unpack what it means to be visible, admired, and sometimes de-personed within a conference culture that elevates “names” while blurring boundaries.Nature, Alaska, and more-than-human attachment. Living in rural Alaska, hunting, fishing, gardening, and tracking the seasons helped Linda reconnect with cyclical rhythms after trauma’s disruption of internal and interpersonal timing. She highlights the clinical importance of including pets, land, and non-human relationships when asking about clients’ support systems.Dogs, nervous systems, and attachment in the therapy room. Both clinicians note how the presence of dogs shifts nervous systems—Janina’s clients become more regulated, and Linda can often read a client’s attachment style more clearly from how they interact with their dog than from formal checklists.From deprivation-based needing to wholehearted wanting. Linda shares how years of “I don’t need anyone” survivalism gradually transformed into an ability to want and need people from a place of joy rather than deprivation—an arc that mirrors many trauma survivors’ journeys.Softening the white gaze and taking in warm, soft eyes. Linda describes how “white gaze” can trigger performance and appeasement parts, while intentionally orienting toward “warm, soft eyes” changed her experience of audiences. Janina, in turn, reflects on consciously softening her own gaze as a white clinician to communicate safety and respect.

In this rich, relational conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with somatic psychologist, yoga teacher, and trauma expert Dr. Arielle Schwartz to explore how embodiment can transform the treatment of complex PTSD and dissociation.They trace Arielle’s path from early work with adjudicated youth and community mental health into somatic psychotherapy, EMDR, and private practice—and how Janina’s work on structural dissociation and parts has deeply influenced Arielle’s clinical lens. Together, they question the long-standing emphasis on “event-focused” trauma treatment and instead highlight the power of working with implicit experience, the nervous system, and everyday triggers.Across the conversation, Janina and Arielle explore:How yoga, somatics, and Buddhist-influenced training at Naropa shaped Arielle’s clinical foundationsWhy classic EMDR protocols can inadvertently harm highly dissociative clients—and how integrating somatic awareness changes everythingThe shift from processing events to working with the effects of trauma: implicit memory, nervous system patterns, and partsStructural dissociation, protector parts, and the inner conflicts that keep clients stuck (“I want closeness / I’m terrified of closeness”)Why “resource-heavy” work, safety, and widening the window of tolerance can reduce the need for intense memory processingThe power of simple language—like “notice”—and why some clients can’t even tolerate the word bodyProprioceptive practices (contact, weight, boundaries in space) as safer gateways into embodiment for highly traumatized or dissociative clients“Embedded relational mindfulness” and how a therapist’s own embodied presence can prevent burnout and compassion fatigueThis episode is especially relevant for:Therapists working with complex PTSD, dissociation, and highly defended nervous systemsEMDR clinicians wanting to work more safely and somaticallySomatic, parts-oriented, and body-based practitioners refining how they talk about “the B word” with clientsAnyone curious about how neuroplasticity, parts work, and somatic mindfulness intersect in trauma recovery🎧 Settle in, notice what happens in you as you listen, and join Janina and Arielle in this grounded, embodied dialogue about what truly heals in trauma therapy.https://drarielleschwartz.com/Dr. Arielle Schwartz, PhDRenowned speaker, author, and esteemed clinical psychologist, Dr. Arielle Schwartz has been widely recognized for her research and clinical advancements in trauma treatment, which have shaped the landscape of trauma recovery and elevated the standard of care all across therapeutic settings.Dr. Schwartz promotes a strength-based, embodied approach to trauma recovery that emphasizes self-driven healing to facilitate post-traumatic growth. Drawing on the principles of EMDR, somatic psychology, mindfulness-based therapies, and relational psychotherapy, she developed Resilience Informed Therapy—an integrative model of care for facilitating recovery from childhood trauma, PTSD, complex-PTSD and Dissociation.Dr. Schwartz has been teaching therapeutic yoga since 2008, and she is the author of Therapeutic Yoga for Trauma Recovery, a widely referenced guide to applied Polyvagal Theory for trauma recovery. She has also authored numerous books covering extensive research and guiding techniques in trauma treatment.https://drarielleschwartz.com/www.resilienceinformedtherapy.com/https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5LUxnXbReV7I5cEzvb46sQhttps://www.facebook.com/drarielleschwartz/https://www.instagram.com/arielleschwartzboulder/

Janina Fisher PhD talks with psychologist Robert Schwarz about energy psychology, EFT tapping, and how curiosity and compassion can guide trauma recovery. Together they explore stabilization, implicit memory, and the healing power of presence in therapy. Robert Schwarz, PsyD, DCEP, ACAP-EFT, is a licensed psychologist with more than 40 years of clinical experience and a leading voice in the fields of trauma treatment, EFT, and energy psychology. From 2008 to 2024, he served as Executive Director of the Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology (ACEP), helping to advance the integration of energy psychology into clinical practice.Over the course of his career, Dr. Schwarz has organized more than 30 professional conferences focused on Ericksonian hypnosis, trauma treatment, and energy psychology. He has also developed and led numerous educational programs, including ACEP’s Science of Energy Healing series and EFT training initiatives.He is the author of three books, including Tools for Transforming Trauma and We’re No Fun Anymore: Guiding Couples to a Joy-Filled Marriage, as well as numerous articles and professional publications. Most recently, he launched the online training program Transforming Trauma and Limiting Beliefs with EFT.An internationally recognized speaker, Dr. Schwarz presents workshops and keynotes on trauma treatment, EFT, and energy psychology. He is known for translating complex concepts into practical, immediately applicable clinical skills within an integrative therapeutic framework.Beyond his professional work, Bob is passionate about creativity, joy, and human connection. He nurtures these values through music, songwriting, and improvisational theater, and believes they are essential ingredients for a meaningful life.https://www.doctor-bob.com/

In this engaging and heartfelt conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD is joined by Tiff Kopp and Clayre Sessoms, senior facilitators of Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) in Vancouver. Together, they explore what it really means to meet trauma with curiosity instead of control — and how TIST helps clients build safety, connection, and self-compassion without retraumatization.From their roots in victim services to their current work as art therapists and supervisors, Tiff and Clayre share how TIST weaves together neuroscience, mindfulness, and relational repair. They discuss how the model honors every part of the self — including those born from oppression, fear, or survival — and how humor, play, and the willingness to “know nothing” open the door to genuine healing.With warmth and laughter, this conversation reminds us that stabilization isn’t the opposite of depth — it’s the foundation that allows deeper work, creativity, and love for all our parts to unfold.Key Takeaways:✨ What makes TIST a safe, non-pathologizing approach for complex trauma ✨ How relationship and context restore dignity for marginalized clients ✨ Why curiosity and play are essential to healing and integration ✨ How therapists can unlearn “fixing” and embrace presence instead ✨ The role of humor, creativity, and repetition in building safety ✨ How true healing begins when we can care for even our most difficult partsClayre Sessoms, RP, CCC, ATR-BCPronouns: she/theyClayre Sessoms is a relational and experiential psychotherapist, art therapist, and senior facilitator of Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST). Based in Vancouver on unceded Coast Salish lands, she works at the intersections of parts, power, and belonging, offering care grounded in curiosity, embodied presence, and social justice.As a trans, queer, and disabled human, Clayre brings lived understanding to her collaborations and mentorships, centering safety, dignity, and connection over performing calm or competency, or fixing. She invites you to move from self-management toward self-relationship, and from surviving within oppressive systems to cultivating inner and collective belonging. She is the founder of Clayre Sessoms Psychotherapy, a practice dedicated to relational, creative, and justice-oriented care, and co-host of The Living Practice Podcast, where she and Laura Hoge, RSW explore what it means to live the practices that matter most to each of them.clayresessoms.comThe Living Practice Podcast.Tiff Kopp, RCC, BCATR (she/they) is a trauma therapist and Certified Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) Facilitator who integrates somatic and art therapy with parts work. With more than fifteen years in the anti-violence and advocacy field, Tiff now focuses on supporting people living with complex trauma and providing consultation for therapists developing somatic and parts-based approaches. A queer clinician, Tiff brings an intersectional, relational lens to her work. Outside of sessions, she finds joy in photography, music, dance and time in nature.Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST): https://janinafisher.com/tist

In this rich and deeply personal episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Dr. Janina Fisher is joined by Rui Cang, LMFT, a Los Angeles–based psychotherapist, TIST facilitator, and Sensory Motor Psychotherapy practitioner whose clinical expertise is grounded in her own lived experience as a Chinese-born immigrant and bicultural therapist.Together, they explore the complex and often unspoken challenges faced by Asian and Asian American clients—from navigating intergenerational trauma and collectivist family systems to reclaiming language for emotion, boundaries, and the self in a culture where those concepts have long been taboo.Through stories from her practice and her own journey, Rui illuminates:The role of shame and compliance in collectivist cultures—and how they can inhibit healingWhy the concept of “boundary” may feel foreign or even threatening to many Asian clientsHow helicopter parenting, fear-based caregiving, and emotional withholding create patterns of anxiety and indecisiveness across generationsThe cultural value of endurance (zhen)—and how it both protects and harmsThe profound attachment trauma that can arise even in multi-generational, tightly bonded familiesHow enduring racism, war, and displacement have shaped bodies and nervous systems across Asian diasporasThe emotional toll of code-switching, assimilation, and survival-driven identity loss in Western contextsHow language itself can limit emotional expression—and how somatic and parts-based therapy helps bridge the gapJanina and Rui reflect on what it means to offer culturally responsive trauma therapy that honors the beauty and pain of collectivist traditions. They discuss the paradox of Asian family systems that are close-knit and supportive—yet often silence individuality, emotional vulnerability, and self-expression. Rui shares how many of her clients, especially first- and second-generation immigrants, are caught between two worlds: Western individualism and Eastern collectivism—and how therapy can help them reclaim a self that belongs to both.Throughout the conversation, Rui’s compassion and insight shine. She speaks candidly about:Growing up in Beijing in the absence of emotional vocabularyTraining in psychology in China before such programs truly existedThe challenges of doing Mandarin-language therapy with clients whose native culture lacks words like “empathy,” “self-worth,” or “boundary”Her clinical use of parts language (TIST) to help clients honor their loyal parts, submit parts, and protective parts without shameThis episode is not only a profound exploration of Asian cultural dynamics in therapy—it’s also a masterclass in attunement, humility, and the courage to question inherited beliefs.Whether you’re a clinician working with Asian clients, an immigrant navigating dual identities, or simply someone interested in how culture shapes our inner world, this conversation offers nuance, validation, and a path toward integration.“Our clients aren’t being resistant,” Rui reminds us. “They’re carrying centuries of survival strategy—and they’re doing the best they can.https://www.thewholisticconnection.com/Rui is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a deep passion for supporting individuals and families in healing from trauma. She specializes in PTSD, Complex PTSD, dissociative disorders, and attachment-related challenges, and is certified in both Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment, and has advanced training in Attachment-Focused EMDR and Relational Life Therapy for couples.Rui’s approach is warm, relational, and holistic—integrating mind, body, and spirit. She believes that healing happens through connection, compassion, and the discovery of inner resilience.

In this tender and richly insightful episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, welcomes friend, longtime collaborator, and trauma expert Lana Epstein, MSW, MA, LICSW. Together, they reflect on their 30-year journey as clinicians, supervisors, teachers—and kindred spirits working to understand the nuances of healing trauma.From their days as board members of the New England Society for the Treatment of Trauma and Dissociation to co-teaching for Bessel van der Kolk’s early conferences, Janina and Lana recount their shared roots, deep clinical respect, and mutual influence. But this conversation is more than nostalgic—it’s a profound dive into the integrative work of healing both trauma and attachment wounds.Lana brings a unique voice to the field as a hybrid clinician fluent in EMDR, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, clinical hypnosis, and parts work (including IFS and TIST). She shares how she weaves these modalities into a deeply relational, body-informed practice—one that doesn’t fix clients, but co-creates with them the conditions for change.Together, Janina and Lana explore:Why attachment wounds are often the “last piece” clients can’t resolve through traditional therapyThe clinical challenge of teasing apart trauma from early relational injuriesHow to work with clients who “armor up” even when they desperately want loveA powerful, somatic case vignette involving curling inward, reaching, and receivingThe role of bilateral stimulation in calming nervous system overwhelm—even before trauma processingWhy chunking down and co-regulating through presence matters more than technical masteryThe importance of right brain-to-right brain attunement and implicit communicationAn accessible explanation of memory reconsolidation and how it rewires the emotional weight of traumaLana also shares a poignant personal story of her own breakthrough in a group therapy session—when, in the midst of crying about feeling unloved and alone, she instinctively bolted upright when others tried to offer physical support. That reaction, she says, taught her more than years of insight-oriented therapy. It was the moment she began to understand how to help clients unveil what they long for but push away.Throughout the episode, Janina and Lana model the humility, humor, and humanity that defines truly effective trauma treatment. They speak candidly about not always knowing what they’re doing—and why collaboration, not clinical certainty, is the real key to healing.Whether you're an EMDR-trained therapist wondering how to bring the body into the room, or a somatically trained clinician looking to integrate memory reconsolidation techniques, this episode is a masterclass in respectful integration.If you would like to connect with Lana Epstein, please reach out to her at: lanaeps@verizon.netLana Epstein, MA, LICSW, has maintained a private practice in Lexington, MA, since 1984 and currently has office hours in NYC. Her focus has been on individual, couple, and group psychotherapies, specializing in the treatment of clients who have survived traumatic childhoods. She is a past supervisor at the Trauma Center, was a member of the New England Society for the Treatment of Trauma and Dissociation board for six years, and is a founding member of the New York City Association of Trauma Therapists. Integrating a number of therapeutic models, Lana presents internationally and is interested in the integration of Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and EMDR.Show Notes:

In this profoundly moving and deeply relevant episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, welcomes trauma therapist, TIST facilitator, and activist Jon Lee, LMFT (they/them), for an honest and layered conversation about working with trans and autistic clients—especially in a world where the threats they face are not just historical, but ongoing.Together, Janina and Jon explore the emotional, clinical, and political weight of supporting clients whose suffering is shaped not just by past trauma, but by active, escalating systemic oppression. As anti-trans and anti-neurodivergent rhetoric and policy gain momentum, therapists face a dual responsibility: to be trauma-informed and to be anti-oppressive.Jon speaks candidly about the emotional toll of holding space for trans clients when they too are grieving and fearful. They reflect on how therapy can (and can’t) address trauma rooted in systemic harm—and why the goal isn't always “feeling better,” but rather helping clients build internal and external support so they can keep moving forward in spite of everything.This episode explores:What it means to do therapy when clients are in real-time dangerThe limitations of individual therapy in the face of systemic violenceWhy “helping parts” in therapists must learn to tolerate discomfortThe role of mutual aid, community support, and decentralizationHow TIST can support trans and autistic clients—when and how it fitsThe cost of masking and how to create space for unmasking with careCommon misconceptions and stereotypes about autism in therapyWhy nuance is essential—and how exposure builds itAccommodations that respect neurodivergent ways of processing and communicatingThe overlap between trauma and neurodivergence—especially in how emotion is expressedHow clinicians can work toward decolonization and anti-oppressive frameworks in practiceJon also shares their personal story of discovering they are autistic, and how this new understanding became a special interest that deepened their empathy and transformed their clinical lens. They challenge therapists to stop forcing neurodivergent and gender-expansive clients into neurotypical norms—and instead co-create spaces that honor difference, flexibility, and complexity.Rather than asking, “How can I get my client to be more neurotypical?” Jon encourages a different question: “How can I adjust my therapeutic stance to meet the client where they are?”Whether you’re a clinician, advocate, educator, or simply someone trying to show up better for the people around you, this episode is a compassionate call to hold nuance, embrace imperfection, and engage in collective resistance.https://www.jonleemft.com/Some resources Jon would love to to share with people:Crisis resources (including for queer, trans, gender-expansive people) that don't involve non-consensual reporting to authorities -- not for imminent life-threatening emergencieshttp://jonleemft.com/resourcesFree app including extensive mental health resources by and for trans peoplewww.voda.co"Modern Therapist's Survival Guide" Podcast episode about clinical considerations and engaging with this current political moment, for trans clients (with Artie Hartsell, MSW - director of organizing, ACLU of North Carolina)https://podcasts.apple.com/ee/podcast/what-therapists-need-to-know-to-support-the-trans/id1310770477...A place to start learning about autism and more resourceshttps://embrace-autism.com"Unmasking Autism" by Devon Price, PhD - book about un-masking autism and intersections with gender identity and trauma manifestations, written by Devon Price, PhD (psychologist of trans experience)https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/688819/unmasking-autism-by-devon-price-phd/

In this engaging and heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, is joined by psychiatrist, author, and trauma specialist Frank Anderson, MD for a wide-ranging conversation that is both clinically insightful and deeply personal.With over three decades in the field of trauma and dissociation, Frank reflects on his evolution from a young Harvard-trained psychiatrist to a pioneering voice in Integrating Internal Family Systems (IFS), neuroscience, and psychopharmacology. Now, with multiple bestselling books, a production company, and a growing public platform, Frank is on a mission to bring trauma healing beyond the therapy office—to the wider world.Together, Janina and Frank explore:How to prescribe medication with respect for parts and without re-enacting power dynamicsWhy trauma-informed psychopharmacology must be collaborative, consensual, and education-focusedThe healing power of internal consensus—“all parts must agree” before a script is writtenThe myth that antidepressants “fix” depression—and how they actually work to widen the window of toleranceWhy therapy that only targets memory, but not blended parts, misses the heart of complex traumaFrank’s concept of medications as unblending agents, helping clients step out of reliving and into relationship with their experienceStories of early trauma treatment missteps—and the lessons we’ve learned from themThe shift from regressive parts mapping to strategic, systems-informed integrationFrank also shares highlights from his books:To Be Loved — a memoir and upcoming feature film exploring truth, trauma, and transformationTranscending Trauma — a guide to treating complex PTSD with IFS and neuroscienceIFS Skills Training Manual — a practical workbook that became a foundational tool for cliniciansThe episode also includes a moving discussion about Frank’s production company, Trauma-Informed Media, and their work developing a docuseries adaptation of The Body Keeps the Score in collaboration with Bessel van der Kolk. Frank speaks passionately about reaching trauma survivors around the globe who may never access therapy—and about the urgent need for accessible, accurate information at scale.Throughout, Janina and Frank reflect on their 30-year friendship, their complementary clinical philosophies, and their shared reputation for helping the clients others fear to touch. Their chemistry is warm, funny, and real—and their insights speak directly to clinicians navigating the complex intersections of parts, trauma, and pharmacology.This episode is for:Therapists curious about how medication fits in trauma treatmentClinicians working with blended, suicidal, or highly dysregulated clientsSurvivors looking to understand the why behind their healing journeyAnyone seeking hope, humility, and clarity in the chaos of complex traumaAs Frank says:“I educate. You decide. And no medication happens until all parts are on board.”Whether you’re a therapist, survivor, educator, or just trauma-curious, this conversation offers validation, vision, and a gentle challenge: How can we take what we know—and share it with the world?Frank Anderson, MD, is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and psychotherapist, specializing in trauma and dissociation. He is a lead trainer for the IFS Institute and has a long-standing affiliation with Bessel van der Kolk’s Trauma Center. He also serves as an advisor to the International Association of Trauma Professionals. His most recent books include To Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and Transformation, a memoir about his personal journey, and Transcending Trauma: Healing Complex PTSD with Internal Family Systems. https://www.frankandersonmd.com/Program with Janina: https://www.frankandersonmd.com/trauma-beyond-the-story