Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan

Ivan Zhao, founder and CEO of Notion, joins me to introduce a new contender in the founder mode debate: jazz mode. Ivan has a different take than Jack Dorsey's circular org chart or Brian Armstrong's player-coach approach. He thinks hierarchy is human nature, and that you can't flatten it away but you can build a company that improvises like a jazz band instead of marching in formation. Notion has roughly 60 ex-founders on staff and a deliberately decentralized structure to make that work. We get into why Ivan rebuilt his engineering org around a barbell — super junior ICs paired with very senior architects — which is the opposite of what most AI-pilled CEOs are doing right now. He explains why building with language models is "more like brewing beer than engineering a bridge," and how Notion's first candidate interview no longer involves a resume. Ivan is the king of refoundings. He's done it twice, once from a small apartment in Kyoto with five employees left, once from Cancun the day he got early access to GPT-4. When I was running HubSpot, I described our scale-up years as boring compared to what's happening now. Ivan's advice for any CEO who's calcified and wondering if it's time to blow it up: feel the AGI first, then trust your body when it tells you to move. 00:00 Introduction 02:22 From Founder Mode to AI Org 11:00 Hiring for Taste and Agency 24:28 Refounding Notion in Kyoto 30:27 Craft Versus Commerce 32:26 When to Refound 34:07 GPT-4 Refounding Shock 45:35 Leadership and Founder Energy 53:17 Sales Culture and Closing Thoughts

This one’s a treat: two AI-native CEOs building some of the world’s fastest-growing startups from outside of Silicon Valley. Mati and Anton are navigating a world that’s moving 10X faster than it was when I was CEO of HubSpot. We dig into the realities of what it’s like scaling today: managing co-founder relationships when you're the only person you can complain to, delegating while staying in founder mode, building exec teams that blend experience with homegrown talent, and why lightweight planning rhythms are key when the AI tech stack changes every six months. Both share tactical advice on managing chaos, from email triage systems to no-meeting days. They open up on Europe's advantages (hungry talent, less competition) and disadvantages (thinner executive bench), the 9-9-6 work culture debate, and why the next generation of European founders could finally build trillion-dollar companies. I thought these guys shared an honest look at what it really takes to lead through hypergrowth these days.

I didn’t think Parker Conrad would get up off the mat when he got ousted from his previous startup, Zenefits. No one in Silicon Valley did. Instead, Parker let his rage propel him into an all-consuming mission to prove the haters wrong and build Rippling, a $17 billion juggernaut that blows his prior success out of the water. Parker has advice for founders: from productively harnessing the chip on your shoulder, to maintaining fast operational velocity to why you need founder-minded people on your team instead of manager-minded people—even among your managers. And yes, he spills the dirt on Deel. Parker is one of the new greats who is tearing up the old CEO rulebook and writing his own. - Brian Halligan, Sequoia Capital