Making Therapy Better

What is the unique value of psychotherapy in a world where AI can convincingly simulate empathy while delivering evidence-based treatments with better fidelity than many human therapists?In this episode, Bruce Wampold sits down with Dr. Anat Perry -- one of the first and most innovative researchers studying human empathy in comparison with AI-simulated empathy.Together, Bruce and Anat explore:• What empathy actually is (and why it’s more complex than we think)• Which aspects of empathy AI can approximate — and which it cannot• Why “perfect” empathic responses can feel empty• The difference between sounding empathic and being empathic• How AI may reshape loneliness, connection, and trust• Where AI can support therapy — and where human relationship remains essential Whether you’re a clinician, researcher, or simply curious about where psychotherapy is headed, this episode offers a thoughtful look at one of the most important questions facing the field today.🔔 Don’t forget to like, comment, subscribe, and share — your support helps us keep these conversations going.---Anat Perry, Ph.D. | Director, Social Cognitive Neuroscience Lab, Hebrew University of Jerusalem; Helen Putnam Fellow, Radcliffe Institute (Harvard); Co-editor of Empathy and Artificial Intelligence: Challenges, Advances and Ethical ConsiderationsBruce Wampold, Ph.D. | Emeritus Professor, University of Wisconsin–Madison; Author of The Great Psychotherapy Debate---The Making Therapy Better podcast is brought to you by CarePaths EHR, an electronic health record system designed to help you improve therapy outcomes.https://www.carepaths.comProduced and edited by Kevin Riordan and Geissy Araújo, Ph.D.Intro/outro music by Chris Haugen, free for public use.---Follow the Making Therapy Better project:🌐 Website: www.makingtherapybetter.com📺 YouTube: /@makingtherapybetter📸 Instagram: /making_therapy_better📘 Facebook: /makingtherapybetter🐦 Twitter: /therapybetter💼 LinkedIn: /9223245---02:53 - Therapists vs Bot Therapy04:55 - Three Part Empathy08:06 - Chatbot Backlash10:08 - What Bots Can Mimic15:35 - Genuine Care Matters18:24 - Tools vs Connection21:52 - Hybrid Therapy Future24:01 - Loneliness and Incentives26:22 - Empathy On Demand27:35 - Loneliness and Social Maps29:52 - Social Skills Atrophy31:39 - Doubting Genuine Messages33:58 - Trust Stories Across Generations37:21 - Training Social Skills With AI42:29 - Authenticity and Earbud Coaching45:42 - Books, Movies, and Bot Empathy48:50 - Attachment and Blurred Reality50:09 - Responsible AI And Farewell53:49 Sponsor Care Paths EHR---#psychotherapy #AI #TherapySkills #MentalHealth #Counseling #ClinicalPsychology #Empathy #TherapistTraining #BruceWampold #MakingTherapyBetter

Is depression really caused by a chemical imbalance — or is that one of the most enduring myths in modern psychiatry? For decades, the serotonin theory of depression has shaped how mental health is explained, treated, and marketed to the public. But what does the science actually show — and why does evidence that challenges this narrative provoke such intense reactions? In this provocative episode, our host Bruce Wampold sits down with Joanna Moncrieff, M.D., professor of critical and social psychiatry at University College London and a founding member of the Critical Psychiatry Network. Joanna has spent more than 30 years researching psychiatric diagnosis, antidepressant medications, and the sociocultural forces that shape modern mental health care. She is the author of well over 60 academic articles and several books, including her newest release, Chemically Imbalanced: The Making and Unmaking of the Serotonin Myth. Together, Bruce and Joanna discuss: • What the scientific evidence does, and does not, reveal about the connection between serotonin and depression • What antidepressant trials really show about efficacy and placebo effects • Emotional numbing, clinical significance, and real-world prescribing practices • The social, political, and professional forces that influence psychiatric research and practice • Why challenges to the chemical imbalance narrative have been so controversial • What it means to understand depression as a human response to life, rather than a brain disease ----🔔 Don’t forget to like, comment, subscribe, and share! Your support helps us keep these conversations going. --- Bruce Wampold, Ph.D. | Emeritus Professor, University of Wisconsin–Madison; author of The Great Psychotherapy Debate; one of the most influential psychotherapy researchers alive today. Joanna Moncrieff, M.D. | Professor of Critical and Social Psychiatry at University College London; leading figure in the Critical Psychiatry Network; author of Chemically Imbalanced and multiple prior books examining antidepressants and psychiatric theory. --- This episode was produced and edited by Geissy Araújo, Ph.D. and Kevin Riordan. —— The Making Therapy Better podcast is brought to you by CarePaths EHR, an electronic health record system designed to help you improve therapy outcomes. [https://www.carepaths.com](https://www.carepaths.com) --- 00:00 Introduction 00:45 Meet Dr. Joanna Moncrieff 02:10 The serotonin myth: Unpacking the evidence 09:57 Antidepressants and the placebo effect 18:40 The sociology of psychiatry and antidepressants 31:06 Understanding depression: Biological vs. psychological perspectives 32:57 Clinical trials vs. real-world practice 35:11 The role of the human relationship in depression treatment 37:03 Evolutionary perspectives on depression 40:26 Challenging the serotonin theory of depression 47:03 Future of depression treatments: Psychedelics and beyond 54:57 Reframing depression: A human reaction to life's challenges 58:30 Conclusion and final thoughts ----------------------- #MentalHealth #Depression #Psychiatry #Antidepressants #serotonin #CriticalPsychiatry #Psychotherapy #BruceWampold #JoannaMoncrieff #MakingTherapyBetter #MentalHealthScience Intro/outro music by Chris Haugen, free for public use.

Why do therapists keep making the same avoidable mistakes?In this episode, Dr. Bruce Wampold sits down with Dr. Mick Cooper — Professor of Counseling Psychology at the University of Roehampton and an internationally recognized expert in humanistic, existential, and pluralistic therapies.Together, Bruce and Mick break down common therapist mistakes and their impact on the therapeutic alliance. Through fun and helpful role-plays, they even demonstrate how these common mistakes can show up in the therapy room, and what more effective responses might look like.--Topics include:• Being too passive (too much silence, not enough engagement)• Talking too much, or saying things that just aren’t relevant• Being too cognitive and avoiding emotion• Letting that “therapist voice” or rigid techniques get in the way of authenticity• Avoiding affect even when it’s clearly right there• Colluding with the client instead of exploring the meaning• Assuming your preferred model is the “right” one for every client• Failing to explain how therapy works, or why what you’re doing may be helpfulWhether you're a clinician, supervisor, trainee, or simply curious about what actually happens in the therapy room, this episode offers a rare, behind-the-scenes look at the micro-skills that matter most.What do YOU think therapists should never do? We’d love to hear your thoughts. Share your perspective in the comments!🔔 Don’t forget to like, comment, subscribe, and share — your support helps us keep these conversations going.--👉 Be sure to also check out Mick's related video! 👈How NOT to do Counseling: 13 Things to Try and Avoidhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOk7mR5mFLE——Mick Cooper, Ph.D. | Professor of Counseling Psychology, University of Roehampton; Author of numerous books, including: Working at Relational Depth in Counselling and Psychotherapy and Psychology at the Heart of Social Change: Developing a Progressive Vision for Society. Check out his books here! https://www.amazon.com/stores/Mick-Cooper/author/B001H6PZPQBruce Wampold, Ph.D. | Emeritus Professor, University of Wisconsin–Madison; Author of The Great Psychotherapy DebateProduced and edited by Geissy Araújo, Ph.D. and Kevin Riordan.——The Making Therapy Better podcast is brought to you by CarePaths EHR, an electronic health record system designed to help you improve therapy outcomes.https://www.carepaths.comFollow the Making Therapy Better project:🌐 Website: www.makingtherapybetter.com📺 YouTube: /@makingtherapybetter📸 Instagram: /making_therapy_better💼 LinkedIn: /9223245Intro/outro music by Chris Haugen, free for public use.

Has the rise of telehealth truly reduced inequities in who has access to psychotherapy? Who is being left behind? How did COVID-19 impact the prevalence of mental illness? These are just a few of the questions Bruce explores in this timely episode with Dr. Mark Olfson, one of the leading experts on mental health services in the U.S. ...And the answers may surprise you!It's no secret that the mental health landscape in countries like the U.S. is shifting rapidly — with rising demand for services, changes in who delivers psychotherapy, and new modalities like telehealth and AI transforming the way people receive care. But what do the data tell us about how these changes are actually impacting population mental health, and mental health services?If you’re a clinician, researcher, or anyone interested in the systems that shape mental health, and mental health services, this episode is for you!Featuring:**** Mark Olfson, MD, MPH | Professor of Clinical Psychiatry, Columbia University; Psychiatrist, New York State Psychiatric Institute**** Bruce Wampold, PhD | Emeritus Professor, University of Wisconsin–Madison; Author of The Great Psychotherapy Debate: The Evidence for What Makes Psychotherapy Work🔔 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share — and stay tuned for more content on the science of psychotherapy and healing!----The Making Therapy Better podcast is brought to you by CarePaths EHR, an electronic health records system designed to help you improve your therapy outcomes. (https://www.carepaths.com)----Follow the Making Therapy Better project!Website: http://www.makingtherapybetter.comYouTube: / @makingtherapybetter Instagram: ( / making_therapy_betterFacebook: / makingtherapybetterTwitter: / therapybetterLinkedIn: / 9223245----The Making Therapy Better podcast is produced and edited by Kevin Riordan and Geissy Araujo. Intro/outro music is by Chris Haugen and is free for public use.----#MentalHealthServices #Psychotherapy #Therapy #MindBody #MarkOlfson #BruceWampold #Healing #UW-Madison #Columbia #clinicalpsychology #PsychotherapyResearch #MentalHealth

In this inspiring episode, Bruce sits down with Dr. Louis Castonguay from Pennsylvania State University to delve into the evolution and current state of psychotherapist training and education. The discussion covers a broad range of topics, from the risks of holding rigidly to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) in training programs to importance of intellectual humility and the diminishing focus on foundational psychotherapy skills. Dr. Castonguay argues for an integrated training model that emphasizes trans-theoretical skills and exposing trainees to a wider range of theoretical orientations and perspectives, perhaps especially in programs that will still primarily focus on CBT. The episode also touches on the broader social and existential relevance of psychotherapy in today's complex world. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of psychotherapist training and supervision.Dr. Louis Castonguay was awarded the Lifetime Contribution Award by the Society for Psychotherapy Research and is the author of numerous books including How and Why Are Some Therapists Better Than Others?: Understanding Therapist Effects.Dr. Bruce Wampold, your host, is one of the most prominent psychotherapy researchers alive today and has co-authored the hugely influential books on this topic: The Great Psychotherapy Debate: The Evidence for What Makes Psychotherapy Work and the newest edition of Persuasion and Healing: A Comparative Study of Psychotherapy----The Making Therapy Better podcast is brought to you by CarePaths EHR, an electronic health records system designed to help you improve your therapy outcomes. (https://www.carepaths.com)----Follow the Making Therapy Better project!Website: http://www.makingtherapybetter.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@makingtherapybetterInstagram: (https://www.instagram.com/making_therapy_betterFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/makingtherapybetterTwitter: https://twitter.com/therapybetterLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9223245/----The Making Therapy Better podcast is produced and edited by Kevin Riordan.Intro/outro music is by DELOSound and is free for use under the Pixabay Content License.----

Why haven’t psychotherapy outcomes improved in decades, despite hundreds of new treatment models and thousands of new randomized controlled trials?In this special episode of the Making Therapy Better podcast, renowned psychotherapy researchers Bruce Wampold and Scott Miller discuss how the field’s obsession with inventing and testing treatment methods may have distracted us from strengthening the relational skills that we know drive better treatment outcomes. Bruce and Scott explore why therapy outcomes have plateaued, what makes some therapists consistently more effective than others, and how clinical training must evolve to focus on measurable interpersonal skills.Bruce Wampold, Ph.D. is Emeritus Professor at the University of Wisconsin–Madison and among the most influential psychotherapy researchers alive today. Scott Miller, Ph.D. is the founder of the International Center for Clinical Excellence and a pioneer in improving clinical training through deliberate practice and measurement-based care.----The Making Therapy Better podcast is brought to you by CarePaths EHR, an electronic health records system designed to help you improve your therapy outcomes. (https://www.carepaths.com)----Follow the Making Therapy Better project:- Website: (http://www.makingtherapybetter.com)- Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/making_therapy_better)- Facebook: (https://www.facebook.com/makingtherapybetter)- Twitter: (https://twitter.com/therapybetter)- LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9223245/)----The Making Therapy Better podcast is produced and edited by Kevin Riordan.Intro/outro music is by DELOSound and is free for use under the Pixabay Content License.----

Daisy Singla, PhD is a clinical psychologist, associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto, and senior scientist with the Institute for Mental Health Policy Research at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. She has led some of the largest clinical psychotherapy trials in the world, exploring methods for increasing access to mental health services in diverse cultures and settings around the world. She has received awards from the American Psychological Association and the Society Psychotherapy Research, and in 2018 she became the youngest ever recipient of the Pragmatic Clinical Study Award. In this episode, Daisy talks to Bruce about her work to increase access to mental health services in low-income communities around the world, including in rural India and Uganda. She explains how the task sharing model makes it possible to leverage the expertise of mental health professionals along with motivated trainees from local communities to scale up evidence-based treatments in high need areas. She also describes the training and supervision models they employ and offers her insights on how what she’s learned through this work can be applied in North America. Follow Making Therapy Better onInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/making_therapy_better/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makingtherapybetterTwitter: https://twitter.com/therapybetterLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9223245/The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major" http://www.makingtherapybetter.comMaking Therapy Better is sponsored by CarePaths https://www.carepaths.com

Jerome is a Professor of Social Work at New York University as well as a member of the American Academy of Social Work and Social Welfare, and has sat on editorial boards for the Clinical Social Work Journal and Evolutionary Psychology. He is the author of more than 300 publications appearing in journals in psychology, philosophy, psychiatry, psychoanalysis, and social work, and a number of books, including The loss of sadness: How psychiatry transformed normal sorrow into depressive disorder, which was named Best Psychology Book of 2007 by the Association of American PublishersIn this episode, Bruce and Jerome talk about the history of the DSM and psychiatric diagnosis, and Jerome’s working definition of mental disorder as a harmful deviation from biologically designed functioning. They also touch on the fact that a large portion of people who benefit from psychotherapy are not actually suffering from a diagnosable disorder. Jerome criticizes the current system that requires a diagnosis for insurance reimbursement and the difficult ethical situation this forces clinicians into. Finally, they discuss more generally the problems caused by the medicalization of mental health care and how to move forward.Follow Making Therapy Better onInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/making_therapy_better/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makingtherapybetterTwitter: https://twitter.com/therapybetterLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9223245/The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major"http://www.makingtherapybetter.comMaking Therapy Better is sponsored by CarePaths https://www.carepaths.com

Dr. Raison is a professor of psychiatry and human ecology at University of Wisconsin-Madison, director of Clinical and Translational Research for Usona Institute, and Director of Research on Spiritual Health for Emory Healthcare. In addition, Dr Raison founded the Center for Compassion Studies at the University of Arizona. His research has focused on novel mechanisms involved in the development and treatment of major depression and on the physical and behavioral effects of compassion training. Recently, Dr. Raison has taken a leadership role in the development of psychedelic medicine, particularly as a treatment for depression. He has received numerous awards, including the Raymond Pearl Award from the Human Biology Association, and being named one of the most influential researchers in the world by Web of Science. His most recent book is The New Mind-Body Science of Depression. In this episode, Charles and Bruce talk about depression as a mind/body phenomenon, and as an evolutionarily adaptive response. Charles shares his thoughts on the present and future of psychedelic-assisted therapy and presents a number of different treatment models and frameworks for understanding why psychedelics are so effective at treating depression for some people. Follow Making Therapy Better on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/making_ther... Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makingtherap... Twitter: https://twitter.com/therapybetter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/917... The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major" http://www.makingtherapybetter.com Making Therapy Better is sponsored by CarePaths https://www.carepaths.com

Ed received his doctorate in anthropology from UC Santa Barbara, after which he worked at the Institute for Theoretical Biology in Berlin. He is currently a professor of evolutionary anthropology and director of the Bioanthropology Lab at Washington State University Vancouver. His research focuses on evolutionary medicine and finding evolutionary explanations for the origins of substance use and other mental health issues. His work challenges the notion that depression is caused by a dysfunction of the brain and argues that it is likely an adaptive response passed down through natural selection.In this episode, Bruce talks with Ed about his theories and how they can affect the way we view clinical practice.Follow Making Therapy Better onInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/making_ther...Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makingtherap...Twitter: https://twitter.com/therapybetterLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/917...The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major"www.makingtherapybetter.comMaking Therapy Better is sponsored by CarePaths https://www.carepaths.com

Catherine Eubanks, PhD is co-director of the Center for Alliance-Focused Training, and professor of clinical psychology at Adelphi University. She is a fellow of the American Psychological Association and received the Outstanding Early Career Achievement Award from the Society for Psychotherapy Research in 2015. Dr. Eubanks helped to develop the Rupture Resolution Rating System and is coauthor of Therapist Performance under Pressure: Negotiating Emotion, Difference and Rupture. She also recently released Rupture and Repair in Psychotherapy as part of the APA Video Series.In this episode, Bruce and Catherine discuss the importance of a good working therapeutic alliance, particularly how to recognize and repair ruptures in the alliance, both big and small. They identify the most common markers of alliance ruptures, and talk about how clinical supervisors can work with therapists in training to better recognize these markers. They also talk about supervision of supervisors, and other applications of the alliance rupture framework outside of psychotherapy.Learn more about Catherine's work at: https://www.therapeutic-alliance.org/References:Bordin, E. S. (1979). The generalizability of the psychoanalytic concept of the working alliance. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research & Practice, 16(3), 252–260. https://doi.org/10.1037/h0085885Stiles, W. B., Glick, M. J., Osatuke, K., Hardy, G. E., Shapiro, D. A., Agnew-Davies, R., Rees, A., & Barkham, M. (2004). Patterns of alliance developmentand the rupture-repair hypothesis: Are productive relationships U-shaped orV-shaped? Journal of Counseling Psychology, 51, 81–92. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/0022-0167.51.1.81Safran, J. D., & Muran, J. C. (1996). The resolution of ruptures in the therapeuticalliance. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 64, 447–458.http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/0022-006X.64.3.447Follow Making Therapy Better on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/making_therapy_better/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/makingtherapybetter Twitter: https://twitter.com/therapybetter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/91731994The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major"www.makingtherapybetter.comSponsored by CarePaths EHR and Measurement Based Care

Edward R Jones, PhD is a clinical psychologist with years of executive leadership experience in the behavioral healthcare industry, including Vice President roles at Pacific Care Behavioral Health and Value Options. He has worked as a healthcare consultant in connection with both established and start-up companies. In recent years he has focused on health and wellness services, digital health services, and consultation to employers on the economic value of health and productivity.In this episode, Bruce and Ed talk about the future of behavioral healthcare, and how a new model of trained therapists integrated into the primary care system could help improve access to mental health services, as well as some of the potential pitfalls of the new age of digital therapeutics.The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major"www.makingtherapybetter.comSponsored by CarePaths EHR and Measurement Based Care

Helene Nissen-Lie is a professor of clinical psychology at the University of Oslo and a practicing psychologist. She participates in a number of research projects in Norway as well as internationally, including collaborations with the University of Sheffield and the University of Chicago. She has published over 50 papers and articles, and her research interests include therapist effects, the therapeutic alliance, mechanisms of change in psychotherapy, and outcomes research, among many others.In this episode, Bruce talks to Helene about her research and her surprising finding that therapists who expressed more professional self-doubt, which they both agree may be better thought of as "professional humility" end up with better outcomes for their clients. They also talk about some of the applications of measurement-based care and the differences between the Norwegian and American systems of mental-health care.The intro and outro music is the Borromeo String Quartet performing Beethoven's "String Quartet No. 3 in D Major"www.makingtherapybetter.comSponsored By CarePaths EHR and Measurement Based Care