PDA: Resistance and Resilience

In episode 14, Marni and Chris mark the first anniversary of PDA: Resistance and Resilience the PDA way—a little late, and on our own terms. No guest this time, just the two of us reflecting on how our relationship to PDA has shifted over the year.We discuss what it means to hold a label lightly, identifying with PDA without making it the whole basket, and the internalized ableism that surfaces when others question whether the label is worth claiming. We talk about the value of multiple lenses (PDA, giftedness) for understanding the same experiences, and why neither has to win.The conversation moves through our sensitivity to power imbalances and hierarchy: the lifelong discomfort with treating adults as above children, what that meant in school and still means in academia, and how flatter-hierarchy spaces like self-directed learning centers change the experience for everyone. We come back to mentorship and the importance of safe adults in a young PDAer’s life—a thread that runs back to earlier episodes.Chris shares something personal: rediscovering a 40,000-word unpublished book written at 23 and 24, during a period of major disintegration, and what it reveals about PDA, dignity, and the impact of being told: “You don’t have a choice.” Looking back with compassion rather than judgment, Chris reflects on how today’s lenses make sense of what younger Chris couldn’t yet name.We close with a look ahead: more collaborations with PDA North America, our upcoming webinars (Marni on unschooling for PDAers in September; Chris on the theory of positive disintegration for PDAers in December), an upcoming trip to Australia for Chris, Marni’s dissertation on PDA families, and gratitude for a year of remarkable guests and conversations.Links from this episodeKelsie Olds, The Occuplaytional TherapistKristy Forbes Ep. 10: Voices at the MarginsEpisodes mentioned by guest:Ep. 4: All About Functioning Labels with Katy Higgins Lee Ep. 5: Living on Our Own Terms with Caitlin HughesEp. 6: Traveling with PDA with Becca CampbellEp. 7: Creative Resistance with Mattia MauréeEp. 8: Mentoring PDAers with Trust and Curiosity with Amy ClarkEp. 13: The Dirtbag Ethos with Blake BolesUpcoming PDA North America webinars:Homeschooling/Unschooling Your PDA Child with Helen Lowry and Marni Kammersell, September 3, 2026, 7-9 pm CST. Click here to registerA Different Mirror: Positive Disintegration & the PDA Experience by Chris Wells, December 10, 2026, 7-8:30 pm CST. Click here to registerConnect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration with Chris WellsPDA: Resistance and Resilience on SubstackFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Content note: This episode includes brief discussion of suicidal ideation, mental health crises, school avoidance and truancy proceedings, and harmful behavioral interventions.In episode 12, Marni and Chris are joined by Diane Gould and Melissa McKenzie of PDA North America to talk about the PDA Experience Report: the first large-scale study of PDA lived experience in North America. Nearly 2,200 caregivers and PDA adults responded in just a month. Diane is the executive director and founder of PDA North America and a licensed clinical social worker; Melissa is a clinical psychologist and research scientist. Both credit the larger team behind the report, including Marni, who served as a final reviewer.Diane shares the origin of PDA North America, including the first conference held in Chicago the week before the world shut down in March 2020. The conversation then turns to what the report shows: the gap between caregiver perception and adult PDAer self-report (including underreported suicidal ideation), the near-universal endorsement of sensory sensitivity among adult PDAers, an 87.7% rate of school avoidance or refusal, and the financial hardship that shows up across the adult sample. They sit with the limits of the data, too—the whiteness of the sample, the mistrust of research in marginalized communities, and the real reasons the low-demand approach may not feel safe or accessible to families who don’t have the privilege to drop demands.Diane and Melissa close by talking about where PDA North America is headed next: more qualitative work, in-depth interviews with people from communities the survey didn’t reach, and a continued effort to help families act on what the report shows. PDA day (May 13) is this week, and PDA North America is hosting a full day of community programming. Links mentioned in the episode:* The PDA Experience Report * PDA North America * PDA Day * Episode 8: Mentoring PDAers With Trust and Curiosity with Amy ClarkConnect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris WellsPDA: Resistance and Resilience on SubstackFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 10 is a special episode of PDA: Resistance and Resilience—a collaborative roundtable conversation with seven neurodivergent podcasters, recorded as part of a research project exploring what podcasting makes possible as a way of creating and sharing knowledge.This episode is the companion recording to a peer-reviewed article published in the journal Neurodiversity as part of a special issue on critical neurodiversity studies. The paper, “Voices at the Margins: Podcasting as Neuroqueer Collaborative Autoethnography and Epistemic Healing,” positions podcasting as a legitimate research methodology—one that centers voice, emotion, lived experience, and relational connection rather than treating them as noise to be cleaned up.The conversation was guided by five open questions: What does podcasting make possible? Where have we felt excluded by traditional knowledge spaces? When has our lived experience been dismissed? What truths live in the contradictions and messiness? And how does podcasting ripple into neurodivergent community and belonging?What unfolded was raw, funny, moving, and deeply real. We talked about why you wouldn’t go to a mechanic who’s never driven a car, why platypuses break the rules of what’s supposed to exist, what it means to show up as yourself when everything around you says you’re supposed to show up differently, and how a single podcast episode can ripple outward in ways none of us could have predicted.Read the paper: https://doi.org/10.1177/27546330261437265*A PDF of the transcript is available here.Hughes, C., Wells, C., Nicholson, E., Mayhew, B., Gay, S., Kammersell, M., & Mogler, T. (2026). Voices at the margins: Podcasting as neuroqueer collaborative autoethnography and epistemic healing. Neurodiversity, 4, 1–15. Podcasters in this episode:* Caitlin Hughes (she/they) is a queer, nonbinary, multi-exceptional Australian social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate. Late-identified as Autistic, ADHD, Gifted, and PDA, Caitlin co-hosts the Divergent Dialogues podcast and brings a lived experience-led perspective to their work. They are committed to fostering epistemic healing through relational ethics, narrative reclamation, and accessible, lived experience–driven knowledge creation. * Chris Wells (they/them) is a multi-exceptional, nonbinary, and neurodivergent writer, podcaster, and developmental theorist specializing in Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration. They co-host the Positive Disintegration, cosmic cheer squad, and PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcasts, and are the founding president of the Dąbrowski Center and co-creator of the Positive Disintegration Network. Chris brings lived experience and a deep commitment to reframing neurodivergence through a developmental and relational lens.* Emma Nicholson (she/her) is a neurodivergent Australian Senior Business Analyst, creative and advocate, identifying as gifted, Dyscalculic, with all five overexcitabilities (psychomotor, sensual, intellectual, imaginational, and emotional), as well as bisexual and Heathen. She co-hosts the Positive Disintegration Podcast and serves as Vice President of the Dąbrowski Center. She is driven by an unkillable passion to demystify positive disintegration and share hard-won truths to help others feel seen and supported.* Bee Mayhew (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent (late-identified AuDHD, former gifted kid) writer, narrative collaborator, and communication coordinator for PDN Media. She co-hosts cosmic cheer squad podcast and has a background as a hospitality specialist and business owner. Bee’s work centers on collective narrative-building and neurodivergent storytelling through activist, community-rooted practice.* Sheldon Gay (he/him) is a Black Gifted speaker and podcast host of I Must Be BUG’N (Black Underrepresented/Unidentified Gifted and otherwise Neurodivergent). Sheldon is guided by the belief that learning to deeply and wholly Love oneSelf, cape and kryptonite, is the path to finding, creating, and maintaining Love everywhere we go.* Marni Kammersell (she/her) is an American late-identified neurodivergent (Autistic, ADHD, PDA, gifted) parent of neurodivergent children. She is an educator, researcher, writer, and consultant, and co-hosts the PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast. Marni is dedicated to honoring neurodivergent experience through relational, self-directed, and nervous-system-informed knowledge practices.* Teena Mogler (she/her) is an Australian AuDHD social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate, as well as co-host of the Divergent Dialogues podcast. As a mother to neurodivergent children, Teena is passionate about amplifying neurodivergent voices and disrupting epistemic injustice through lived experience-led, neuroaffirming, and critically reflexive knowledge practices.Find the podcasters:* Divergent Dialogues: divergentdialogues.substack.com* I Must Be BUG’N: sheldongayisbugn.com* Positive Disintegration: www.positivedisintegration.org* cosmic cheer squad: cosmiccheersquad.substack.com* PDA: Resistance and Resilience: pdapodcast.substack.comConnect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration with Chris WellsPDA: Resistance and Resilience on SubstackFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 8, Marni and Chris talked with Dr. Amy Clark, whose doctoral research uncovered why mentoring is uniquely powerful for PDA learners. Amy explains what real mentoring looks like: attunement, autonomy, flexibility, and deep curiosity. We discuss why traditional educational models fail PDA kids, how burnout happens, why praise can backfire, and how families can bring mentoring principles into everyday life even without access to formal mentors.Amy also shares case studies from her research, including how one PDA student moved from total shutdown to thriving through a slow, relational, interest-based process.We close with the biggest misconception about PDA kids: they don’t need more discipline—they need safety, trust, and people who truly see them.Dr. Amy Haynes Clark is a leader in twice-exceptional development and neurodiversity-affirming systems design. Drawing on her doctorate in Cognitive Diversity and Innovative Leadership, she mentors profoundly gifted youth and supports families with children who identify as or experience autism, PDA, anxiety, OCD, Tourette’s, or ARFID. She guides parents in adopting strengths-based, self-directed learning approaches that foster connection, confidence, and harmony at home. Through her consultancy, Exceptionally Engaged, she also partners with educators and organizations to create psychologically safe, autonomy-supportive cultures where creative thinkers and teams can truly thrive.Links from this episode:Exceptionally Engaged (Amy’s website)Find Amy on instagramConnect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris WellsPDA: Resistance and Resilience on SubstackFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 6, Chris and Marni talk with Becca Campbell, an ADHD PDAer raising an ADHD PDAer and the founder of Matching Sweaters Travel Company. We discuss the unique challenges and insights that come with travel as a PDA adult and parent. Travel often means facing layers of uncertainty, shifting routines, and unexpected demands — all of which can spark resistance and anxiety.Together, we explore:* Why new places and disrupted routines intensify PDA responses* Strategies for navigating travel with kids who have a pervasive drive for autonomy* The tension between wanting adventure and needing safety and predictability* How privilege, support, and self-awareness shape the ability to travel* The ways travel mirrors the larger journey of life with PDA: detours, resilience, and rethinking what “success” looks likeBecca shares stories from her own experience of parenting and traveling, offering both validation and practical insight for families wondering what’s possible — and how to find autonomy even when on the road.Becca Campbell is an ADHD PDAer raising an ADHD PDAer. She’s the founder of Matching Sweaters Travel Company, where she helps neurodivergent families plan travel rooted in strengths, interests, curiosity, and autonomy. Her upcoming book blends memoir and practical tools to support families who want to explore the world without leaving themselves behind.Resources from this episodeConnect with Becca Campbell:Instagram --> @matchingsweaterstravel Facebook --> Matching Sweaters Travel Website --> https://matchingsweaterstravel.wordpress.com/Connect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris WellsPDA: Resistance and Resilience on SubstackFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 4 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, Marni and Chris were joined by Katy Higgins Lee, MFT, a multiply neurodivergent therapist and parent from Santa Rose, California. Together, we dive into the complex terrain of functioning labels, exploring how terms like “high-functioning” and even PDA itself can be misused in ways that reduce human complexity and perpetuate ableist assumptions. The conversation weaves through lived experiences, therapeutic insights, and parenting reflections while highlighting how labels often obscure more than they clarify.Key themes include:* Why functioning labels are outdated and harmful* How giftedness and twice-exceptionality (2e) are often misunderstood or misused* The tension between parenting support and pathologizing language* How PDA is sometimes used to imply “not autistic”* Why educational settings often misjudge our kids’ needs, and how unschooling can offer new freedom* Why supporting our kids means shifting our own assumptions about functioning, success, and motivationJoin us for a rich, honest, and affirming conversation about dismantling stigma, honoring complexity, and making space for each person’s truth.Bio: Katy Higgins Lee (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent therapist in Northern California where she supports neurodivergent adults and couples. She also supports fellow therapists through clinical supervision, consultation, and continuing education courses, along with Authentic Movement groups for therapists. She has a Masters Degree in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Somatics from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Katy also provides psychoeducation and advocacy through social media (under the name Tending Paths) and is a homeschooling/unschooling parent, writer, and gardener.Links from this episodeVisit Katy’s websiteYou can find Katy [Tending Paths] on Instagram and Facebook Katy was a guest on Positive Disintegration Episode 30: Celebrating Neurodiversity, Overexcitabilities, and GiftednessTicket Theory by Hilary KnutsonGiftedness as Neurodivergence, Not Functioning Label:Connect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris WellsPDA: Resistance and Resilience on SubstackFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 2, Marni and Chris dive into the question, What is PDA?—not just how it’s defined by others, but how it feels in our bodies and shows up across our lives. We explore how definitions grounded in childhood behaviors can fall short when you're trying to understand yourself as an adult—and why lived experience should be at the center of the conversation.Together, we unpack:* How PDA often first enters our lives through parenting or professional roles, and how recognition of ourselves comes later* The tension between knowing we fit the profile and not fully resonating with how it’s described* The emotional logic behind demand avoidance, especially in relation to autonomy, power, and safety* The creative, sometimes subversive strategies we used to avoid demands as kids and teens* The pathologizing of deep, intense relationships—and how “obsessive” interests in people have been both misunderstood and essential* Our evolving understanding of masking and how we each navigate diplomacy, honesty, and authenticityThis conversation is part of an ongoing process of naming, questioning, and making sense of PDA from the inside out. If you’ve ever felt like the existing descriptions don’t fully capture your reality, we hope you’ll feel seen in this space.*Show notes created with the help of AI, but our conversations are always 100% human!Connect With UsWandering Brightly with Marni KammersellPositive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris WellsFollow us on InstagramIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe