Recasting Religious Trauma Podcast

I’m excited to bring you today’s interview about creativity! Even though I’m on here writing most weeks, to be honest, I don’t typically see myself as a creative person. I don’t have great decorating taste like my friends, I can’t assemble an amazing Lego structure out of nowhere like my husband, and when clients want me to paint with them, I paint the same mountain scene every time. Turns out, I needed to hear this interview with Heather!In Ordinary Creativity: How to Survive with Joy, Heather Caliri unpacks how eugenicists, misogynists and racists skewed our understanding of creativity, reframes human ingenuity to include experiences like caregiving, disability, and suffering, and helps you claim your own way of being creative with fierce, unapologetic delight. As you listen to the interview, I think you will be surprised, fascinated, and delighted about the topics that come up around this concept of creativity!Heather’s background growing up in a “creative” family and the pressure that went with that:So like I was just surrounded by very creative people, but the dynamics around that and my family were not always healthy. Like my kind of creativity, the performing kind was like the good kind. Whereas my sister like made art that disturbed people, and my parents were always like, Like she sort of exposed some of the not so healthy dynamics in her family, through her, through her art, well before I felt comfortable doing that.And so that was very, like, I was always very nervous about that. And so there was this, I always had this sense that some kinds of creativity were okay and some kinds of creativity were not okay. And even like I would compare myself to my sister because I really respected how great of an artist she was. [There was a lot of] comparing yourself to other people and coming up short… I was held up in our family as the successful one, but at the same time I looked at my siblings and was like, I just really wish I could be like them.The eugenics history behind the study of creativityThe first person to formally study creativity was Francis Galton. And I said, wait, what? The guy who invented eugenics was the first person to formally study creativity?The whole idea of differential psychology is what makes human beings, some human beings have different abilities than others, and he really thought that. People who were wealthy and tall and male and white were inherently better. That that was why so many geniuses came from wealthy, established families that they cause it ran in the blood and so therefore, super genius, creative people were better and were like masters of the race and they should be supported and encouraged to have more babies because that would improve.Misogynist and racist elements of how we approach creativityA lot of women artists never got their due because they would make quilts. And why is it that we think quilts are not a form of abstract art? Like, why do we think that if it's made with fabric, it's not actual visual art, but if Mondrian makes a thing out of geometric squares made out of paint that suddenly that matters.But if you put it on your bed, it doesn't matter. Like there is just so much weird supremacy built into visual arts. During colonialism, a lot of art was stolen from different African civilizations. And then artists like Picasso were inspired by it, or artists were inspired by Japanese, Japanese art, and they would say that the artists who basically stole and were riffing off these other artists were the real geniuses, but none of the original artists or their cultures were ever credited for the ideas that that inspired Picasso and other artists of the modernist period.Reframing creativity and finding it in the ordinary everydayWhen we realize that creative work and our everyday work — all of it is honoring, all of it is super important. Then we have more connections to other people. We're kinder to the other people around them because we see they matter in whatever genius ideas that I have and their labor is making all of it possible, like all of our collective labor is making all of this stuff possible, and without it, we're all sunk.Sometimes creativity happens in the cracks of our daily life. And it is still important. It is still worth doing, even if it's only for 15 minutes. Even if nobody ever sees it, like ideally we would be all set up to share our work as widely and often we would like, but nobody has that. The people that I admire, like most as as creative people, don't have that luxury. They're not super famous. They don't have maids. Many of them have chronic diseases. Many of them are caregivers. And I admire the fact that they put those things alongside each other and they say, not that they have to choose between one and or the other, nor that they can have it all, but that all of those things are important and the work can happen in small ways and still be meaningful.And of course, listen to the full interview for more tidbits on the intersection of religious trauma and messages about creativity, and what it might mean to claim your identity as a creative person!You can find Heather’s book here: Amazon or Heather’s website, and take her Creative Personality Test to learn how — not whether— you’re creative!Do you consider yourself a creative person? Or after listening to the interview…can you? Did you have any idea about some of the dark background of the concept of creativity? (I didn’t!). What’s your favorite way to create? Leave your thoughts in the comments!Music in podcast provided by: Above by Sapajou | https://soundcloud.com/sapajoubeatsMusic promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.comCreative Commons / Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0)https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_US This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinegreenwald.substack.com

Happy Pride Month!!! In today’s episode (with extensive quotes / notes below!), I interview Tyler Berry, a fellow resident of Bellefontaine and the owner of The Olive Tree (a gay bar) and the Olive Tree Community Center (an LGBTQ+ / allies safe space!). It was such a fun conversation where we cover what it was like growing up here as a closeted gay person, the meandering journey his business has taken and how, like him, his business finally came out as gay, and of course, plenty about drag performers! Hope you enjoy the episode!On Tyler’s turning point for when the church truly no longer felt safe (5:00): For me, the biggest turning point was when gay marriage was legalized. I remember it was a Saturday and I remember the first thing I thought to myself was, oh no, tomorrow's Sunday. What is the pastor gonna say? [I didn’t even think at the time] that I was actually gay, it was more of I knew that I'm not gonna hate on people.…My pastor's approach was very comical. It was almost like, ‘can you believe this is happening?’ And I remember just feeling like I was literally at a standup comedy show where the pastor was just cracking jokes and at the same time, the whole Caitlin Jenner situation was going on.And I remember the one joke he said was, ‘you know, people can be whatever they want nowadays. And if I wanna be a bald eagle, then you all have to respect me. And say that I'm a bald eagle.’ [The church was about] 300 people, just laughing…It was awful. I do remember some people getting up and leaving. After that I really, really did not like religion. I really, really struggled. How Tyler shifted from hating drag queens to them being some of his best friends (13:00): I met this drag queen, and at the time too, I hated drag queens. I'm not afraid to say that I hated them. They were loud, they were annoying, and I didn't understand what they were doing.And it bothered me because as part of the gay community, it's believed, and it is true that drag queens represent the queer community in general. And I did not like how they represented me. Now that perspective's completely changed, obviously, but I'll get into that.…[after the Olive Tree’s first drag show], the biggest turning point was after the show. I had a mother and a daughter come in tears; it was very emotional for them. And the mother informed me that her daughter was struggling with suicidal thoughts and that this event basically saved her life. It was the connection out of drag that was relatable to me… As soon as the makeup came off, these people became my best friends… All the connections came into play of similar trauma stories, similar this, similar that… It's been very interesting too with the inner homophobia that I was dealing with, saying that all drag queens are the same: that is the dumbest thing you could possibly say. On some of the Black drag queens he is friends with:And both of them said that the reason why they do drag and the role models they look up to is from the aunties in their church they grew up with. A lot of their drag personas reflect them. [One of them struggles with religious trauma], but the other one, was like, yeah, I'm a Christian.…We've talked about having gospel drag shows. To some people that makes absolutely no sense, but it is a thing. I've seen gospel drag numbers and they're amazing. The transformation of letting your work and business reflect who you really are: I came out to my mom two years ago and then just a couple minutes later we play this drag show and these opportunities come to me. It was like, ‘is The Olive Tree about to come out as gay?’ And it did. And what was really interesting is, as scary as that was, once it happened, it was beautiful. And the stress of trying to fit this business model that really wasn't even me, just completely went away. Because when I walk into The Olive Tree, it is me. I tell people the walls, the art, the things that happen in there are what is inside my head. On the dynamics of alcohol and the bar:I would say the only thing, and this is kind of funny, the only thing that maybe doesn't connect to me the most is probably the bar. The, the alcohol aspect of it was something that, It was a community cry out. And basically, I'm the only drag venue in probably the world that's not even offering really alcohol. And they kind of go hand in hand. And it was kind of a business decision. I’ve learned to love what the atmosphere has created. It's created a safe place where there is alcohol. A bad coping mechanism, absolutely. But if I have a bartender that's trained and if I'm there as well, also saying, ‘Hey, you're not okay right now. We're not gonna let you drink four bottles of alcohol.’ It's created this really, really safe experience where people can come and be themselves and be vulnerable and talk about their traumas. I mean, my bartender cracks up right now cuz beforehand she worked at a straight bar and she says all the time: ‘these emotions, like it is a lot.’It's almost like she has became mother and there are people that treat her like mother. And I couldn't be more thankful to have her in her position. What does Tyler wish we knew about drag performers?I wish people knew that drag queens are people. And that's it. They are everyday people that they, you know what? They shop, they buy groceries, they pay their taxes, hopefully, you know, they do everything else we do.And it is 110% an art form. It is 100% entertainment. I think drag is one of the most beautiful art forms there is personally, just because it has allowed an outlet for queer people to experiment. To try new things. [To try a new persona]. It gives an outlet where a lot of people that I've even met, when they get out of drag they go right back into this timid, shy person. But then there's also the beauty of, you know, a lot of people have used drag to potentially transition, potentially be like, ‘you know what, I am a woman.’ ‘I am a man.’ ‘I am this.’ And that has been a beautiful experience. Seeing specifically transgender stories through drag puts you in tears. It's just beautiful. And so to have an outlet for that, for queer people is just phenomenal.Go find Tyler and The Olive Tree on Facebook!Thanks for reading / listening! What struck you about this interview? What conceptions do you have about drag performers or gay bars that might get turned on their heads? What are your thoughts about the legislation getting passed around the country specifically targeting drag performers, trans people, and the LGBTQ+ community at large? Or share other thoughts in the comments! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinegreenwald.substack.com

To read an automated transcript of today’s conversation, you can follow this link. I’ll include some highlights of our conversation below along with some time stamps to help you listen along if you desire!This week we are talking with writer Liz Charlotte Grant, about shifting faith therapy, the process of memoir writing, and the tender topic of navigating family boundaries, including when that extends to ending contact with family members.Our guest, Liz, is an award-winning non-fiction writer. Last year, her newsletter, the Empathy List, was nominated for a Webby Award, making it one of the top five newsletters on the internet. She's been in the Huffington Post, the Christian century, Christianity Today, US Catholic, and many more places. Her first book will arrive from Eerdman's Press in 2024.I originally met Liz at a Writing Fair Life conference in Colorado in 2022. She’s one of those friendly, gregarious people who brings people together (something introverts like myself very much need at a writing conference full of strangers!). She asked a question there about her memoir she wanted to have published. The problem was she didn't think that she would be able to have the people within the memoir consent to being in it, and she ended up pulling the contract. For *reasons,* I was super intrigued by this little revelation about her because I have experienced some the similar things in the process of writing memoir and people who may or may not like what you have to say. We chatted it up at the conference, and I am so pleased to bring you an interview today where we talk about memoir writing, complex trauma, therapy, and challenging family relationships. Hope you enjoy!2:00: Liz’s classic All-Star evangelical child resume4:00: What started her journey towards deconstruction / unmasking religious trauma: it wasn’t church structures… it was the incongruence she felt in her family that said they believed in Jesus and God who was one way, but she didn’t experience that from them.6:00: How dysfunctional family relationships set her up for codependency and unhealthy friendships / relationships down the line. Liz went through a lot of therapy to recover from these things!12:00: The process of writing her memoir, which included a chronic illness involving her retina and overall vision. How she realized that she needed a story in her memoir beyond reporting what had happened, and what that actual story and throughline turned out to be (hint: it has to do with those troubled family relationships) 20:00: On needing to set boundaries with her parents: And you know, with complex childhood experiences, often part of the trauma there is the fact that everything was about the parent, you know?…Setting that boundary with my parents. It was like they were over my shoulder reading everything I was writing. So I'd be like typing and my mom would be saying things on the right and my dad would be saying things on the left, and it was so confusing, right? I couldn't even hear my own self. But then after I had set this boundary with them, all of a sudden I was able to separate.21:00: The process of trying to protect herself and family in the process of publishing memoir, and why she ultimately didn’t go through with the book contract.26:00: Why Liz ultimately decided to cut off contact with her parents (for right now):Like, wait, if I can do better as a parent, I want to do better as a parent. Why didn't my parents do better for me?… I started to have conversations with my parents about some of the pain that I'd experienced…[Mom] and I had a lot of very hard conversations and the last conversation we had was in my kitchen and she was yelling at me and telling me that I was a bad Christian, and I had no right to be doing any writing or speaking about anything faith related because I wasn't in contact with my father.37:00: On the internal wrestling about going no contact My therapist did ask me, what do you want from them? Like, what would reaching out to them give you. And I was like, well, really nothing. Like it would just make me not feel guilty. And she was like, huh.I think it felt like I couldn't be a Christian, a good Christian, and be out of touch with my parents. But as you know, I made the decision because it felt like I couldn't make any other decision. I was like, that was the only choice left. My parents weren't willing to work through things with me.I wasn't able to work through things with them in the way I wanted. And we needed the pause. I hope it's not a forever boundary, but for now it is. Interacting with them is a part-time job for me and I don't have time for it. I need the space, the relational space, space for my children and for other relationships. Like I don't want all of my energy to go toward these family relationships and working through past issues. I want to have emotional space for other things. 40:00: Words of wisdom or advice Liz has to offer us? I think these decisions are so tender. You know, when we grow up with complex childhood trauma, our instinct is that our needs don't matter. And so that is the fundamental thing we are taught, that you are less important. Your experience of your family and yourself is less important than theirs of you. I think it was very freeing to say, that's not true. My singular life is only mine. And so I have to own the things in myself. And you know, for me it wasn't about happiness. It was actually about purpose.I felt that I couldn't do the other things well that I needed to do, that were right in front of me. And so it was a sense of embrace of my own limitations too. I can't actually mother my parents while I'm mothering my children. I can't actually have weekly phone calls with them and try to keep up with writers across the country that I'm trying to be friends with.You know, I can't write this work I need to be writing if they're on my shoulder, right? And so a lot of that was very clear to me. Like there is a limitation actually on me and my energy and time, and it's okay to acknowledge that. So I think some of those things were just, you know, that I just started to notice myself and see that I was a person worth caring for and that it was okay to say there were things I couldn't do.You can find Liz Charlotte Grant on her Substack newsletter, The Empathy List, which promotes a more empathetic and curious Christianity from a progressive Christian lens (her article from yesterday is sooo good!). Find her on Instagram here. And her book coming out in 2024 is about re-approaching scriptures after leaving inerrancy, writing in a genre mixing in sciences, fine art, Jewish myths, and much more!If you liked this interview, would you press the “heart” button and/or leave a comment? I’d love to hear how this impacted you. And if you have questions or further topics to explore around the issues of family boundaries and family of origin relationships, pleeeease comment (or write me at christinegreenwald.substack.com): I would love to tailor some posts to tackle some of the issues you all want to hear about! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinegreenwald.substack.com