Sexvangelicals

This summer, we've answered the most common questions that we receive as relationship and sex therapists. And this week, we answer one of the most common questions: Does body count actually count? We live in a culture that views your sexuality based on how often you access it. Men who are deemed to have accessed sexuality a lot are viewed as "studs". Women are simultaneously valued and devalued based on how often they have sex. In Evangelical systems, folks who have sex before they get married are sinners. There are tons of psychological and relational problems that develop from this question, even as many of us are unlearning the myth that our value is tied to how sexual we are or are not. We talk with Natasha Helfer, certified sex therapist and one of the premier relationship therapists for post-Mormon folks, about how we can ask better questions. Check out our conversations about: Does Body Count, Count? (6:00) Julia kicks us off, " From the conservative Christian perspective, body count does count, but in a very rigid, specific sort of way. And then when folks deconstruct, they often reevaluate this expectation and consider sex with other partners." Purity Culture Embedded (10:00) Natasha highlights, "The reality is that if you grow up in the United States of America, we do have a lot of purity culture baked into the system, including in our laws and our government and our society and our school education systems around sexuality. You name it, we're affected by it." Defining Sex (15:00) Natasha discusses " When we think about sex only being defined by a penis entering a vagina, I guess lesbian people are not having any sex. I guess gay men are not having any sex, right? Oftentimes making sure that we define sex very rigidly helps with what I call the loophole argument like "I am still a virgin". I can tell my pastor or my priest or my bishop that I am virginal even though I've given a hand job or received or given oral sex … So all these things that I would consider having sex gets reduced to not having sex." Colonizing Lens & Body Count (20:00) Natasha says, " We have all kinds of capitalistic and patriarchal and colonizing ways where sexuality was absolutely affected. And so this idea that I'm going to count and gather a count is in of itself not based in an equity model." Grief (24:00) Julia notes, " A theme that I'm noticing in my practice is that I have several couples in which one or both partners are interested in exploring other sexual relationships. And these are couples from high demand, high control religious backgrounds, and they've been in this monogamous partnership. And one or both of them had all the rigid scripts that we've described. And then one or both of them are saying, "I have so much grief around this developmental loss." Cultural Messages About Waiting (29:00) Natasha says, " Most of us are getting a lot of these cultural messages and we're getting applauded for doing these choices of waiting to have sex … The whole community is like, hooray, you did a great job. And it's not until usually late twenties to early sixties that people are coming into my office going, what in the hell did we just get involved?" Wasting Energy on Purity Culture (38:00) Natasha shares, " I mean, even personally, when I think about all the unnecessary shame and guilt and sleepless nights and racking myself, trying to hustle for my own worth to be a pure worthy woman, I just get livid. I just get livid that I spent so much energy on these things that were, at the time I thought were helpful to me." Deconstruction, Relationships, and Therapy (42:00) Jeremiah notes, " In the burgeoning field of religious trauma studies, religious trauma therapy, there aren't a lot of folks that work with relationships and sexuality together that can understand how deconstruction can impact a relationship." Integrating Sexuality and Deconstruction (49:00) Jeremiah asks, "If you are seeking relationship therapy and are going through the deconstruction process, what can you expect from a good relationship therapist, who's able to integrate sexuality with the process of deconstruction, with an understanding of the impact of purity culture, religious trauma." Paying Attention to Bias (50:00) Natasha notes " A good relational therapist is going to be able to handle their own biases around sexuality, around religious beliefs. Because a lot of relational therapists, quite frankly, are themselves either religious." Identity and Sexuality (54:00) Natasha continues " When we talk about sexuality, we are talking about identity. And identity is very important to our mental health, to our relational health, to our spiritual health, to our sexual health, obviously. And when we bypass or ignore huge aspects of our identity, then we tend to be in unhealthy systems."

This summer, we're reflecting on the ten most common questions we hear from our relationship and sex therapy clients. Growing up in a high control religious space means that queer people often have to repress their sexuality, and may not come out until their late 20s, 30s, or later, which has significant impacts on sexuality and relationship development. We are thrilled to have Dr. Joe Kort, host of the Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast and author of Side Guys, to talk with us about how Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal communities negatively impact the coming out process. Joe talks with us about: Shame & Self-Acceptance (6:00): Joe kicks us off, " I believe that when you tell children that they have to oppress their sexuality, erotic orientation, sexual orientation, romantic interests, and role play, and then people don't discover this until later in life because they believe as children, that I'm straight, that I'm cisgender, that I'm whatever, you know you have attractions, you know you have interests, but you're being shamed out of them." Culture Of Trauma (7:00): Julia notes, " Sometimes I'll have clients come to therapy and they will say, "Well, I grew up in this very negatively sexual religious space, but I wasn't abused by my pastor or my youth leader, or I don't have this explicit incident of trauma." However, what I hear you describing and what I and so many of my clients have experienced is that the culture around some of those religious spaces, especially around queerness, is in and of itself a culture of trauma and abuse." Coming Out Later in Life (10:00): Jeremiah discusses: "There's a 2006 study, The average age of coming out to others was 27 for women, 24 for men. So for the sake of our conversation, let's consider later in life to be after the age of 25. Even then, later in life is still a large span of time, and a person who comes out as a late 30-something millennial, let's say, may experience different psychological and social reactions compared to a Gen Z or a boomer who comes out." Building Community (14:00): Joe shares, " I might say to them to get online and build community, do it anonymously if you can do that so that you don't have to worry about your identity or that you'll be outed prematurely … Get out there and go to the centers, go to the affirmative places. Really get an understanding of all the different types of ways to manifest being not straight." Losing Privilege (18:00): Jeremiah notes, " You're holding onto all of the secrets, the manifestations of shame. You have the loss of heterosexual privilege that you experience when you come out later in life." Making Up For Lost Time (20:00): Julia discusses, "Jeremiah and I have noticed that when folks have grown up in a community that demonizes queer sexuality, and then they come out later in life, whatever that later is, they've experienced some sort of developmental loss. They didn't get to explore the way that other 15, 16, 21-year-olds did, and so they might be 35 and to have an advanced degree and have met other significant developmental milestones. But then they're in these relationships trying to catch up doing the work that some 13-year-olds have done." Stages of Coming Out (23:00): Joe says: " There's stages of coming out. I show it to them, stage five of coming out, and help them. Because they'll even think they might be a sex addict. And the religious community likes to put that label on them, right? … It's like a teenager. If you tell 'em to stop, they're not gonna stop … But I help them see that this isn't gonna last, but that they're going to meet some disappointment during that time. They'll have lots of pleasure, but they're gonna meet some disappointment too." Grief (26:00): Julia notes, " Some of the grief that a formerly religious person might have is, "Oh, well. I don't get to be seen as my full authentic self." Now on one hand, the straight presenting relationship might protect them from some oppression, and they still might feel a certain sense of closetedness." Client Questions (29:00): Joe shares, " You're gonna have to start from scratch, right? You're gonna have to do your own sex education … Can you strengthen yourself to recognize that when you say certain things, being an open marriage, non heteronormative interests, like can you tolerate the fact that people are gonna wanna judge you? And if you're gonna have a reaction to the trauma of being judged from your religion?" Misunderstanding Kink (32:00): Joe discusses, " We have really good research now that show there's no more or less trauma in somebody who's not kinky. So I point them right to the research and then even if it is from trauma, and I tell my trauma clients. All over the board, you can go from trauma reenactment and trauma repetition to trauma play." Finding an Affirmative Therapist (37:00): Joe continues, "An affirmative therapist isn't gonna say alternative lifestyle, right? Because for me, straight life is an alternative lifestyle. We're not gonna use the term homosexual because homosexual is only used by anti-gay religious zealots who say there's nothing gay about being a homosexual." "Side" & Grindr (39:00): Joe shares his proudest career moment: " Side is mine. Nobody taught me that side was just me coming out as a guy who doesn't like intercourse and only likes outer course. And the reason it became popular is I became brave about it at gay men's workshops in the two thousands … Then I wrote about it on Huffington Post in 2013 … it caught the attention of people at Grindr and then somebody said, I wanna start a Facebook group … then Grindr people, we got their attention … And then one day I woke up my name was everywhere, and it was attributed to side" Substack, Lisa Diamond, & Sexual Fluidity (43:00): Jeremiah shares the research, " In the subset article we reflected on, I think Lisa Diamond has like four different processes by which sexual fluidity commonly happens and, and talks about the importance of context situational, getting back to what you were talking about regarding, erotic attraction and the circumstances and situations that might derive that." Finding Humor in the Serious (44:00): Julia highlights Joe's social media impact: " I wonder, even for folks who are listening who are unsure how to connect with their values, they can go to your social media, you ask a lot of amazing questions. Yeah. And you also have some good playful content because sexual health can be pretty serious, and yeah. It is serious for a reason. We also need some giggles along the way, and Joe, you provide that."

This spring, Julia and Jeremiah are answering ten of the most common questions they hear from clients, exvangelicals, and the larger cultural zeitgeist. One of the most common questions is "What if I want to have sex with other people?" In this episode, Julia and Jeremiah are joined by Becs Waite and Jimmy Bridges from the practice This Space Between to talk about factors, considerations, and first steps for those interested in opening up their relationship. High Control Religions & Anxiety (8:00): Julia says, " I imagine that your excitement is really helpful when you work with couples, especially when anxiety could be high. Because for so many people, especially from high-control religious backgrounds, this is an overwhelming topic and often overwhelming in a way that can be really scary. And I think excitement and hope from your therapist could be a good." Spectrum of Options (11:00): Jeremiah notes, "One of the common concerns from church leaders was, "Our church members wanna talk about polyamory." And polyamory is one specific way of doing an open relationship, but there's also 15, 20 other types of ways that one can do an open relationship. And so one of the things that's important to start a conversation is recognizing that the spectrum of options is vast and wonder if we can start by defining some terms." Non-Monogamy as an Identity (14:00): Jimmy shares, "Non-monogamy can be painted as this lifestyle and that's something you do, you physically act out. And for some that works and that makes sense. And for others, it's a lot more nuanced, a lot more core to identity and paradigm and philosophy than just like, I'm trying this out for this summer because I got time." Tolerance (20:00): Becs explains, " I'm assessing for clarity first and foremost, wanting to see if each partner has clarity about why it is important to them, but also seeing if there's clarity, if each partner understands why it's important to their partner. That gives me a good sense of where they're at and being able to tolerate those differences. Because when we have that tolerance, we are able to consider a different perspective without feeling like our own experience is being threatened. Dismissing Myths (27:00): Becs says, "Compersion is fantasy. I mean, it's wonderful when it happens, but you know that's not accessible for all people and it's not accessible all the time. It is like a very binary way of thinking about our emotional experiences. Like either it's gonna be this "terrible thing"--jealousy--or it's gonna be this wondrous thing, and it's like what happened to everything in between and why is that now not considered and not, if it is considered, it's not good enough." Jealousy (28:00): Julia shares, " I'm even thinking about experiences that I've had of jealousy with Jeremiah … And when I've sat down and thought about, oh, what does this jealousy mean for me? And I have needed to sit with jealousy in order to access personal and relational growth. And certainly that happens around sexuality and additional relationships." Confidence (32:00): Becs offers, " If a couple is well supported, they're going to feel a lot more confident, a lot more grounded. They're gonna find more ease in tolerating those differences than a couple that is doing this in isolation. And so therapy is great, coaching is great, and also more is needed. So building that community and often folks are really excited to get on dating apps to find new partners. And I also encourage folks to think about using dating apps and other avenues of connecting for the purpose of building community." Being Realistic (37:00): Jeremiah says, " Part of prepping for it is also recognizing the natural limitations in our lives. That, you know for instance for me, I would like to conceptualize oh, sure, I'd like an open relationship. That seems like a great idea. I also know that I can really only focus on like one or two relationships at a time." Love Running Out (42:00): Jimmy adds, "What you all have just spoken to is the logistical side of like, how much love can go around. But if I think about that, bell hooks talked about this in one of her books. I'm paraphrasing the kind of concept, but love is as love does that love is not just this like amorphous thing, this idea, it's like a practice. And in that sense, yeah, mine has its limitations. And the myth that there is love does run out, but we don't necessarily think of it in this way when we think about kids. Like parents to their kids. That their love decreases for every child that comes into their family." Reality Television (44:00): Julia discusses, "That's one of the themes that comes up in certain reality dating show contests. But reality TV isn't value neutral. It reinforces all kinds of social and cultural narratives. And one of the ones that I noticed coming up so often was, how can you have feelings or how can you love … multiple people we're different." Polyamory & Parenting (45:00): Becs brings up a common myth, "One thing that Jimmy and their co-parent have done really well … but in regards to this was really in a developmentally appropriate way, inviting [Jimmy's child] into understanding that relationships can look so many different ways. And her experience of polyamory is unique. I don't think a lot of nine year olds get this experience, but it has been really normalized for her. And that's not to say she doesn't have questions that come up that are challenging as all kids do, but this doesn't feel threatening or incongruent or hard for her." Logistics (50:00): Jimmy discusses his principles of an agreement conversation, " The first is, is slowing it down. Slowing down the process, slowing down the conversation. Two is getting thorough and that means engaging with the meaning of why this agreement, this specific agreement is being asked for. Is it logistical, is it safety? Does it reflect a history like that?" Holding Nuance (58:00): Becs notes, " I think that is what I want to invite to anyone who's listening to this, who's considering opening up. I think if you can hold onto nuance, which includes our ability to experiment, our ability to hold compassion for ourselves and others, that is the resource I would want you to have is the ability to hold nuance."

This spring, Julia and Jeremiah are answering the ten most common questions that we receive as sex therapists. In this episode, they explore the question, "How do I have my first orgasm?" If you haven't had an orgasm before and you want to have orgasms, messages about "just taking it off the pedestal" and focusing on other areas of pleasure can be really minimizing and dismissive, even if, in the long run, they are helpful. J+J are joined by the amazing Erica Smith, sex educator and founder of Purity Culture Dropout. Join Julia, Jeremiah, and Erica for an hour long conversation about: Focusing on Orgasm (3:00): Julia kicks us off, " Today's episode focuses on orgasm, especially the orgasm that you might have with you yourself, and whatever genital you possess." Taking Orgasm off the Pedestal (8:00): Julia offers this metaphor, " If you haven't had an orgasm or you want to have orgasms, messages about just taking it off the pedestal and focusing on other areas of pleasure can be really minimizing and dismissive." Root of Orgasmic Pleasure (10:00): Erica notes, " If you have a vulva, that means you have a clitoris. And I want people to know that all orgasmic pleasure is rooted there." If it Feels Good - It's Bad Ideology (14:00): Erica highlights, "I start by asking what their relationship to pleasure in general … "If it feels good, it's gotta be bad." … That's a direct quote I've heard from some of my clients. Slow it Down (18:00): Jeremiah says, "I'm actually working through a couple of male individuals in therapy who are like, you aren't helping me orgasm fast enough. And I'm like, "Well, we need to slow this down. We need to understand what the source of anxiety is." And same thing kind of with women, with anyone who's pursuing orgasm. Pace is an important part of this." Optics of Masturbation (24:00): Erica reminds us, " So reminder to clients in this situation that no one's watching. You don't have to be sexy for someone else in thismoment. If you were making the weirdest face and you were humping a pillow across your bed and you're touching your nipple in a certain way, and that's the one way you can orgasm, then that is great. it doesn't matter what exactly you're doing in that moment." Your Clitoris isn't a Button (27:00): Erica notes, " So I think it's helpful for clients to know that there are so many different ways you can actually stimulate your clitoris. You don't just need to go … treating it like it's a button" Setting the Stage (33:00): Julia says, " What I've noticed is that when I am talking with folks about masturbation, when this is new to them, when they haven't had an orgasm, we do a lot of setting the stage for masturbation." De-stigmatizing Masturbation (39:00): Erica shares, "Sometimes it just really begins with de-stigmatizing masturbation … Did you know in Victorian England, they didn't want pornography to be accessible to the working class because they thought it would distract from their productivity?" Top Tips (42:00): Erica runs us through her top tips for achieving orgasm, the first being: " Starting with a slow buildup is always a good idea, and that can look different depending on who you are. So for some people, that slow buildup could be beginning to touch your body gently from the top down. Practice (46:00): Julia adds, " Release actually takes practice. I'm thinking about for so many folks at the end of a workday, how they actually need to put in some work to be able to release their bodies and cultivate whatever it is that they want, whether it's something sexual or not. Perhaps I would add if you're new to masturbation, that it probably will take some practice." Specifics of Sexual Fantasy (51:00): Jeremiah says, " That's one of the downsides of relying on PornHub: You can just click on a button, but there really isn't an active engagement in the manual simulation process. And so I encourage a lot of men that I work with to read erotica. This is another really good process to help men take the time, slow down and say, okay, What are the specifics of my sexual fantasy?"

This spring, Julia and Jeremiah are answering ten of the most common questions they hear from clients, exvangelicals, and the larger cultural zeitgeist. One of the most common questions is "Does planning sex kill the vibe?" In this episode, Julia and Jeremiah talk about the distinctions between planned and spontaneous sex. While many of us desire spontaneous sex, the reality is that, for many of us, sex is more planned than we might realize. And that's fantastic! Join Julia and Jeremiah for a hilarious, thought-provoking, and enriching conversation about: Truthiness & Vibes (6:00): Jeremiah kicks us off by defining a Colbert-era term and his dislike for vibes, " Truthiness is the idea that something is true, not because it is true, but because it feels true. Or another way to say it. The vibes are good." Ignoring Feelings (7:00): Julia notes, " And to be fair, how something or someone makes us feel is important. And for me, growing up in evangelicalism, I learned to ignore my feelings, including some really important feelings. So we are not telling you to ignore your feelings." Physiology (13:30): Jeremiah says, " For many reasons, spontaneous sex is easier to access for folks with younger physiology or in earlier stages of the relationship. As folks age, and as long-term relationships become more mature, spontaneous sex is often less available. The onset of Viagra and Cialis has reinforced the idea that a person with a penis needs to be ready to go spontaneously." Planning (18:00): Julia discusses: "Spontaneous sex can be like those rare occasions when you can call your besties and meet in an hour. Good for you. But almost all the things that we love in this world will require our planning, and we've accepted that." Sexual Growth Beliefs (23:00): Jeremiah summarizes, " The first of these is called Sexual Growth beliefs. People who adhere to these ideals think that satisfying sex has a lot of different variables to it, and they recognize that sexual health happens through effort, ongoing conversation, and practice." Magical Connections (28:00): Julia explores her theory, " I would posit that sexual destiny beliefs are more likely to exist in a culture such as ours that doesn't have effective ways to talk about sexual and relational health. A culture that defunds comprehensive sex education, and a culture that suggests you are your most effective self by how well you perform sexuality, specifically gender roles." Spontaneous Sex (35:00): Jeremiah discusses " Talking about spontaneous sex can be a window into describing our favorite ideal or fantasize sexual experiences, which is great. However, as we'll talk about in a few minutes, the way we think sex should be is often quite different from the way that sex actually gets enacted. This is especially important for folks in longer term relationships." Talking about Sex (39:00): Julia summarizes, " What we're drawing from this research is that when a couple talks about sexuality consistently, they're able to more realistically reflect on how sex actually happens for a couple." Rekindling Desire (42:00): Julia discusses Barry McCarthy's book, " To briefly summarize, McCarthy suggests that setting realistic expectations around what our bodies can do physically, psychologically, and relationally, are tantamount to relational health and sexual health. He invites couples to consider that at least 85% of sexual experiences are about connection and celebrating the relationship rather than performing the perfect individual sexual experience, which comes with a lot of pressure." Connection over Performance (43:00): Jeremiah adds, " if the sexual relationship is about the relationship rather than the performance of the individual, that can help to reduce the fear of failure, such as the success of our genitals, as well as the fear of our partner rejecting us." Responsive Sexual Desire (47:00): Julia says, "It's important to remember that folks with responsive sexual desire need more intentionality and structure to move into a sexual experience, and that doesn't make their sexuality less valid or important." Relationship 101 (50:00): Jeremiah shares one of today's tips, " Talk with your partner about one thing you appreciate before a sexual experience, one thing you appreciate during a sexual experience, and one thing you appreciate after the sexual experience." Sexual Health (52:00): Julia says, " As mentioned at the beginning of the episode, sexual health is a blend of planning sex, setting up a structure that works for all partners and relying on spontaneity, flexibility and ad-libbing or improv to access, excitement, creativity, and fun."

Deconstruction is the process of re-evaluating the worldview and behavioral expectations of a specific community. Talking openly about sexual experiences that exist outside of purity culture dictates is one of the fastest ways that a couple from a high control religious context may begin deconstructing. Season 9 of Sexvangelicals explores ten of the most commonly asked questions that we receive as sex therapists. And it starts with perhaps the most stress-inducing question of all: Can my relationship survive deconstruction? In this episode, we talk about: Relational health assessment (6:00): Jeremiah discusses the assessment they created (along with Maddie) available on Substack Relationship 101: " Ultimately, we're not here to tell you whether or not you should stay married. We don't place a judgment on where your relationship lands as you navigate the sexual and relational impact of deconstruction. We hope that you'll make that choice using your values to guide you, rather than relying on the behavioral expectations of others." Problem Saturated Narratives (11:00): Julia breaks down the assessment title and implications, "The title itself suggests what therapists would call a problem saturated narrative rather than a strength based narrative. Also, the title suggests only a binary outcome. Either the relationship is in trouble or it's not. We ultimately decided to keep this title because this is the language that folks in my practice use when they are worried about their relationship." Actually Talking (14:00): Jeremiah notes: "Talking about sex and sexuality well first means actually talking about it. Many couples that I've seen for therapy have had some of their first conversations about sex in my office … if you followed all the rules and expectations of the church, there wasn't really anything to talk about. The norms of EMPish communities do not leave much room for negotiation or conversation." All Talk (17:00): Julia shares, " So all that to say, talking about sexuality, even talking about sexuality well or well ish, doesn't necessarily translate into the positive experiences of giving or receiving sexual initiation. In all our talking about sex, in all of the book discussions about the Christian books we were reading, we never had conversations about how we actually wanted to initiate or receive initiation for sex. " Narratives Around Physical Pain (20:00): Julia says, " On the topic of physical pain, I truly cannot tell you how often I heard that sex for women hurts the first time. And sometimes it just hurts, even if it's not your first time. That was to be expected in Purity Culture." Young and Married (the Church Group (25:00): Julia reflects on her time in a church group, " It reinforces this idea that you get married young and the best way to be an adult is to be young and married. If you are then a person in a partnership who is deconstructing on your own or you and your partner are deconstructing, you are also potentially embedded within communities that have very strict and stringent expectations. Systems & Pushing Back (27:00): Jeremiah notes, " One of the key themes of working with systems is that when one person changes the system will not change along with you. The system will do whatever it can to push back and to maintain stability and homeostasis." When Religion is No Longer Unifying (30:00): Julia says, " So if you and your partner are noticing that religion or religious spaces are no longer unifying and actually causing strain and conflict, perhaps the relationship needs some support in determining the next steps, whether or not the relationship continues and whether or not the relationship continues to stay in religious spaces." Relationship 101 (33:00): Jeremiah says, "Talk to your partner about your concerns. You are not going through this alone, and your partner is the person closest to your experience." How Do I Find a Therapist (34:00): Julia and Jeremiah discuss their three pillars, " How do I actually find a good therapist or coach? Because it is a super, super daunting process. So I ask folks to consider three different pillars that will hopefully set you up for a positive outcome: Clinical scope of practice. Consider is the relational fit. The third pillar to consider is the logistics pillar. This includes online versus in person work, cost of services. Availability for scheduling. All of this is self explanatory, but necessary to consider."

We are thrilled to re-release part two of our conversation with NPR National Correspondent Sarah McCammon. Sarah is the author of the book The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church. In the age of a second Trump presidency, it's imperative that we discuss the history of the Evangelical Church and politics, purity culture, gender performance, and healing. In part two of our re-release we discuss how there are a lot of memoirs, social media comments, and dialogue about leaving the evangelical church. However, as Sarah says, "you can't really understand the leaving without understanding loving and living the evangelical church." The History of Evangelical Christianity and Politics (5:58): Sarah starts us off, "As s I talk about in the book that meant that had implications for queer people. It had implications for how we were taught about science and about sexuality. And so I've organized the book around all of these themes that for me and a lot of others were tension points, or points of cognitive dissonance or breaking points in some cases." What Religion May Offer (8:13): Sarah says: "It never left me. I think about these questions and this is actually something I'm mostly grateful to my parents and my religious upbringing for, is that I feel like it taught me to think about important things, like what's true, what's good, how should we live, what is our obligation to one another?" Bill Clinton Era and Purity Culture (15:22): uded to in our first interview was the following of rules in the conversation we're having right now. You're talking about a pastor who broke a sexual rule. And you also mentioned that in that Bill Clinton era during the scandal, you were being told to dress modestly, do this, do that, primarily, don't do this." Evangelical Relationships (17:30): Sarah says: "Evangelical Christianity treats relationships like they're a formula. Do X and Y will come out. And that's not just that's not how human beings are." Performing Gender (20:00): Jeremiah offers: "What we've discovered is that evangelicalism is almost exclusively about how well you perform gender." Breaking Down the Title (25:00): Sarah breaks down the title of her book The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church. "The title highlights the nuance of all of this because for good reason, it can be easy to demonize the entire system and the entire system of white evangelicalism has caused all kinds of harm for many different people from many different groups." Grief (26:30): Jeremiah says: "That's also the hard choice that a lot of folks are left with. It's really hard to move through talking about deconstruction sociologically, therapeutically, without talking about grief and without constantly that some of the hard decisions that we've all faced." Connection and Trauma Bonding (32:30): Sarah shares: "You meet the other person who grew up Southern Baptist or grew up evangelical or Pentecostal or whatever, and you wind up like in a corner somewhere like, you know, trauma bonding. And I hope that this book will make it a little bit easier for people to feel like they don't have to hide in the corner. They can just talk to each other and also their nonreligious partners or their colleagues in an appropriate way about who people that you run into who might not understand what this is." Healing Through Storytelling (34:00): Julia says: "I am thankful that you, to repackage some Christian language, decided to hold on to the calling and to tell your story, but also allow folks like me to have my own story seen and reflected by someone else. I personally am a fan of live storytelling events, and that's because I believe that so much healing occurs through the power of the human narrative." Let's heal together!

Letting the dust settle allows us to step out of the reactionary space and evaluate our own lives and relationships. In our final episode of the series "How to Practice Social Justice Without Being a Jackass", Julia and Jeremiah talk about how to make decisions based on values that are important to you and your family system. A proactive process, rather than reactive process, also makes it easier to make relationships with people who align with your values. Check out our conversations about: Reflections on the Democratic Party (9:00): Julia kicks us off, " The Democratic Party could actually learn a lot from the Republican Party, not in terms of its values, but in terms of its organization and structure...The Democratic Party does not have an effective strategy or media structure for communicating its purpose and values to the larger public let alone its voting base So that advocates can share these values and purposes." Sexual Health & Politics (12:00): Julia notes, " The reality is that our work as relationship therapists and sexual health educators is inherently political work. Now more than ever. And ultimately, I will argue politics is about relationships. Whether those relationships exist on a macro, meso, or micro level." Participating in Public Education (15:00): Jeremiah shares, "[I was] talking with my sister earlier today about some of the fears that she has about how the state of Texas is enforcing white Christian nationalism into its school systems. And she's made the decision to protest and to have some different ways of engaging my niece into the school system. The fact that conservative policy makers, education makers in Texas, in the state of Texas, are enforcing these values, are putting my sister and a lot of people in these really hard positions about whether or not I want to participate in the public school system." PACT (19:00): Julia and Jeremiah discuss PACT ( Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy) throughout the episode, referencing the book In Each Other's Care, written by Stan Tatkin, the developer of PACT. EMPish Folks & Mission Statements (22:00): Jeremiah discusses working with a couple who were both former missionaries and incorporating models from PACT, " The idea of a mission statement or a purpose statement that they have a lot of experience with that, but so often the mission or purpose statement was written on behalf of other people, with the couple being the vehicle for meeting those goals. As opposed to the couple writing their own mission statement together in a way that they can define and move towards the goals that they set for themselves." Reckoning with the Election Aftermath Interpersonally (24:00): Julia says, "Many folks in our audience or client caseload are reckoning with the aftermath of the election In part, by reflecting on the ways that the values of Christian nationalism may have previously informed part of their relational foundation with a spouse or a partner. Now these folks are perhaps developing a new relational value set for the first time, separate from more conservative religious values, within the larger political sphere." Relationship Anarchy (27:00): Julia defines, " A real quick nuts and bolts definition is that relationship anarchy suggests that each relationship has its own purpose. And in the case of long term committed relationship, each relationship probably has multiple purposes. The smorgasbord that I named earlier lists about 25 different potential purposes for a relationship. These include, but are certainly not limited to, emotional support, empathy…" Shared Purpose (30:00): Jeremiah defines, " To summarize, shared purpose: A written purpose statement holds us to prioritizing a particular way of living and existing during a particular season so you don't end up like me on social media, pulled in 50 different directions and completely exhausted." Needing More than Vibes (34:00): Julia says, " I love some Obama vibes. However, we can't run on vibes. Now, Obama had some excellent policy. However, many people didn't necessarily know what that policy was. They were attracted to his vibes." Values (39:00): Jeremiah notes, " I have the value of nuance. And making sure that any sort of conversation that we have that we're able to name the different variables that might be at play in any given situation … As we consider and reconsider both the purpose of our relationship and also some professional opportunities that we'll talk about in a bit. Especially, the cultural and social shifts that are coming with the Trump presidency." Shared Vision (40:00): Julia discusses, " The final way we want to let the dust settle is through reorganization. Specifically, finding people who align with your shared vision and rules of governance. This may be a multi week, if not multi month process. Developing relationships requires a huge amount of emotional, practical, and sometimes financial labor. The people who share those values with you want a similar world as you. And they want to treat other people in similar ways that you want to treat other people. But they may have a different purpose than you have." Motivational Speeches (44:00): Jeremiah says, " The audience and panelists used phrases like organizing and community engagement, but rather than giving practical applications for how we can do that in our own communities, and even in this conference, the conversation veered into soliloquies about hope and courage as broad topics. Motivational speeches are not nearly as effective as the people who give motivational speeches think they are." Shared Vision, Different Lane (46:00): Julia shares, " I cannot tolerate social media. So that is a lane I do not want to be in. However, I love that Tim Whitaker is doing it. I love that other folks are actually creating real life strategies for that. So I can say, awesome, Tim, that's your lane. I literally asked him at the end of the conference. What can I do to support that? And he asked us, "What can I do to support your work and your lane? Which is both different from his, but still has a shared vision for what the outcome of the next four years could be." Letting the Dust Settle (49:00): Julia says, " Letting the dust settle allows us to step out of the reactionary space and evaluate our own lives and relationships. Specifically the shared purpose, vision, and principles of governance or how we enact our purpose. Be that in our intimate partnerships or be that in our communities. Often doing that by yourself or in a private space with your partner can allow you to more thoroughly name what your purpose is for this upcoming season in a responsive sort of way rather than a reactionary way." Who We Are (50:00): Jeremiah adds, " The goal is to say who we are, as opposed to highlighting who or what we are not. "

We've tried to hold two seemingly oppositional positions during our podcast series "How to Practice Social Justice This Election Season Without Being a Jackass". 1) We do not support fascism, most notably showcased by the 2024 Republican Party. 2) We support having relationships with people who think differently (and may vote differently) than we do. To help us navigate this, we invited Sarah and Nippy from the A Little Bit Culty Podcast to join us. They talk with us about the parallels between leaving NXIVM and leaving the Evangelical Church/Republican Party. And they also talk about ways that Progressive folks can effectively dialogue with folks leaving harmful organizations. We also talk about ways that Progressive folks can get in their own way. Parallel Process & Christian Nationalism (3:00): Jeremiah starts us off, "21st century Christian nationalism relies on creating an us versus them perspective around a number of political issues, such as abortion, religious liberty, culture wars, and a libertarian economic structure. Sometimes in order to understand something, it's helpful to talk about a parallel process. How does what's happening in one organization or system repeat or mirror itself in another system?" Progressive Circles & Moral Superiority (5:00): Jeremiah says, "Progressive circles have their own version of moral superiority, and also the ensuing avoidance of hard conversations. Nippy, Sarah, and I talk about how structures in progressive circles prevent healthy dialogue and the ultimate humanization of everyone." Proselytizing (10:00): Sarah shares, "I knew that we were pushing NXIVM and that we were proselytizing. The thing that we're pushing is Keith, right? And here I am, like judging Jehovah's witnesses going door to door, when we were doing our version of that hosting networking parties where we could also recruit." Breaking the Delusion (13:00): Nippy describes, "I felt like NXIVM was a great idea, bringing ethics to the world and those sorts of things. Once your wife comes to you and says she's been branded and lied to and coerced, all that delusion immediately evaporated and like, we're not doing that. My delusion was revealed to me abruptly. And so I was immediately on a mission to protect my family." Struggling to Assert (20:00): Sarah says, "So after we left NXIVM, I was very much averse to telling anyone that they needed to do anything. Teachings of NXIVM were often like, "You have no needs other than survival needs, right? There's no emotional needs, there's no connections, safety, security, support. Those are all things that you've made up based on your own trauma and deficiencies." So for me to come out and be like, express any of those things was even hard. So I was grappling with that." Creating Change (28:00): Jeremiah reflects, "It's really, really beautiful to listen to both of you talk about and make reflections on like, this is how I wanted to use my own emotional experience to both communicate what was going on and also the hope that that would create change in a larger system. And in some cases it did for both of you, it seems." Reaching Out (31:00): Sarah and Nippy recall an interaction, where Nippy tells Sarah, "There's going to come a time where you have to like, walk over the dead bodies and you're not going to be able to help everybody." Sarah responds, "Like, and I was really trying to help everybody." Parallel Process (35:00): Jeremiah notes, "Nippy, what you're describing again, just wanting to name the parallel process going on in the larger system as more and more information comes out about the Trump administration and the corruption at minimum that that's happened with that, that the doubling down that's happened with a larger group of people. Just wanted to keep in mind that as we're having this conversation, that there's a larger kind of macro version of that going on." Not Defining (38:00): Jeremiah continues, "Julia and I are both therapists first who happen to study Christian nationalism. One of the ways I think that the field of psychology has really harmed 21st century discourse is through the language of diagnosis and the utilization of diagnosis as a weapon of power. You're in a cult. You are racist. You are fill in the blank without defining what that actually means." No Nuance (40:00): Nippy says, "Whatever group presents themselves, it's kind of a, you're with me or against me. Us versus them. They don't really leave room for nuance. And in the last four or five years, you've seen it in climate change. You've seen it in politics. All these things that are coming up right now demand that you take a side if you don't then you're somehow guilty of some sort of internal crime." Exiting a High Control Group & Covid (46:00): Sarah says, "Ccoming out of a high control group--you, me, Nippy, and your listeners all did this. Okay. Now we're free. We don't have anything controlling us. Let's just say, let's take an example of COVID. That happened. And my first instinct was, "Wait, you're going to tell me what to do to my body again? Go f--- yourself". And people go, "Oh, you're an anti-vaxxer." And I'm going, "Wait, you're calling me a name. You're putting me in the us versus them. I don't like that one bit." And it was very easy for people to know if they understood my story, why I would be a little bit defensive." Informed Decisions (48:00): Jeremiah notes, "Understanding that any sort of decision that we make, there's a lot of tensions that are there. And it's important to talk about those, not from the perspective, say, of positioning myself in one group, but from the perspective of helping people to understand, these are really complicated things that we're working through that have relational impacts that have family impacts. And we need to talk about the nuances of them so that people can make more informed decisions." Deconstruction (56:00): Sarah discusses, "I had a friend say, "What if a little bit of that [information about Keith] is true?" That was a bit of dissonance. It was like sort of cracking the plate … Of course you wouldn't be here if there weren't good things. You're not willing to look at the bad. And I realized that that was true somewhere in the back of my mind. So I see that right now, both sides aren't willing to look at whatever side they've chosen has done some shady shit."

One of the biggest sources of stress this election season has been the publication of Project 2025. As we continue our series How to Do Social Justice This Election Season Without Being a Jackass, we recognize that many of the policies in Project 2025 are dehumanizing, as well as unwise. While the content inside Project 2025 is infuriating, it's nonetheless imperative that we familiarize ourselves with it, while also taking care to communicate effectively about its dangers. To help us, we invite Andra Watkins, author of the Substack How Project 2025 Will Ruin Your Life. Andra is one of the leading experts on Project 2025, and she talks with us about: Jackass-dom in Liberal Spaces (2:30): Jeremiah kicks us off, "One of the themes that we've talked about in this podcast is moral superiority and virtue signaling, and this episode could easily kind of move into virtue signaling and moral superiority because one of the ways that liberal groups and progressive groups move into those kind of jackass spaces is through the specific way that knowledge and information gets communicated." Weaponizing Education (5:00): Julia notes, "In this episode and in all episodes of this series, we are trying to walk that really difficult line between the importance and power of education and knowledge without weaponizing that as a tool to further create harm." Undaunted Courage (21:00): Andra talks about, "I was really fortunate in the first book that I picked up, Undaunted Courage. It's just one of the best books I've ever read, and it presented this very different picture of that expedition [Lewis & Clark]. I was like, if I could have learned all this when I was 13, I would have majored in history because this is fascinating because the youngest guy that went on the expedition was just 15 years old." Pushback in Deconstruction (23:00): Jeremiah notes, "So often the experiences of deconstruction, the pushbacks happen in relationships. And Andra, you were talking about the relationship that you have with your mom, some of the pushback that you have. And we want to keep that in mind throughout this episode and name that, but also know that there is a mutually reciprocal relationship between education and pushing back against the family relationships, pushing back against the mythology." Withholding Information (26:00): Julia says, "When we think about sex education, we think about it in more explicit terms around sexuality or relationships. But I think that the sex education the church didn't want you to have can now expand into the Lewis and Clark expedition and, and all the other parts of history that point to facets of our humanity, including relationships, including sexuality that are intentionally withheld from teenagers and adolescents who are learning." Project 2025 (31:00): In detailing her inspiration for the substack Andra says, "I was reading along. And I said, this is a Bible verse that I'm reading. It's not presented that way, but this is almost verbatim, a Bible verse." God's Law Because God is Perfect (34:00): Andra says, "They all use this same lens though, to say America is a Christian nation. America is a white Christian nation. We need to use the Bible as the basis of our laws. That's what the founders meant for the Bible to be our law, not man's law. And we have to override anything that violates God's law like abortion, even though abortion is not in the Bible. That's how they justify all of those stances to themselves … I was taught you never compromise because it's God's law and God is perfect. God knows all we can't ever give an inch." Expertise (37:00): Andra shares, "Expertise by life experience and that's really what gives me my expertise. Americans don't respect that as much. It's not uncommon for me in left leaning circles to be introduced as a self proclaimed survivor of Christian nationalism. Like there's some reason to question whether I really am." Indoctrination (40:00): Andra says, "I don't think a lot of Americans realize that when you sit in a pew and listen to this for 40 or 50 years, many of you are very, very radicalized in their thinking. So having had adult experience with watching people that I knew who were still in that world and how they had morphed and changed over time because of this dogma. All of that experience and study of Project 2025 and the groups involved I felt like that was enough to claim to be an expert. And so many people who write about Christian nationalism have no pain or trauma or suffering from it. They didn't grow up in it. They just became curious about it." Dog Whistles (45:00): Jeremiah says, "That's good information about considering Colleen Hoover. First of all, considering it quote "pornography". Second of all, what Project 2025 says about pornography. And third of all the dog whistle for pornography that this is actually about domestic abuse and at what point does that then get into like the banned books and get thrown in like the critical race theory?" Dealing with Trolls (51:00): Andra says, "I got some trolling commentary in the past couple of weeks and they were upset that I was calling Republicans, fascist Republicans, because they were Republican. So they took issue with my name calling. And so I explained to them what fascism is and what it looks like. And gave examples in the United States of where it's happening. And said, if it hurts your feelings that I'm calling Republicans fascists, then, you know, I'd encourage you to educate yourself a little better about what fascism is." Staying Grounded (54:00): Julia notes, "What I'm hearing and learning from you is that education can also keep you grounded when the understandable and justified emotions that you're feeling might threaten to hijack you. You're not ignoring those emotions, which is equally dangerous. You're allowing them to be present. You're sitting with them. You're honoring them. I think anger is a highly important emotion to respect, especially in terms of advocacy. And when you wait those 24 hours, when you can bring your work back to the education that you do, that can be helpful personally, but ultimately that's what. It has the power to, to change conversations and ultimately to change policy."

Healthy systems, be they families, organizations, or countries, require healthy leadership. In our work as therapists, coaches, and cultural critics, we pay attention to the following question: How does one communicate to the larger system that they are a healthy leader? This week, we talk with Matthew Remski (@matthew_remski), co-host of the Conspirituality podcast (@conspiritualitypod) about two strategies that folks use to develop influence. Charisma. Vibes. Of course, these are notoriously difficult entities to quantify. And as we talk about with Matthew, there are significant consequences to a system when it assesses success primarily through one's charisma and vibes. A system that places high value on charisma and the construction of vibes is one that is prone to practice jackassdom. The projection of an emotional experience at the expense of healthy discussion about policies, positions, and context encourages moralism, virtue signaling, and blaming. Matthew talks with us about: Experience v. Expertise (8:00): Jeremiah starts us off, "Too often a social media brand will post something based on their own individual experience, not connected to any sort of larger research, cultural or historical precedent, and identify it as truth … But expertise requires years, if not decades, of practice, study, asking questions, and wrestling with the complexity of one particular area." Experience Informing Expertise (10:00): Julia adds, "You and I have a theoretical model based in an understanding of the science of relationships and sexuality that informs the way that we operate and informs the way that we operate at any given time. Our experience shapes the way that we consider the scientific process. The scientific process includes expertise and our new practice of science creates new experiences." Charisma & Substituting Scope of Practice (21:00): Matthew says, "Because of that fragility, that underlying anxiety, this person in this leadership position always has to try to generate a kind of halo effect. They always have to reach beyond what they're actually doing to make it imply more than what it actually does. […] Charisma itself is anxious, and it must always come up with something else to justify what it's offering." Yoga & Charisma (24:00): Julia shares her experience of being a yoga teacher at one point, "Some classes are more popular than others, and they tend to be more popular based on who teaches it. And that teacher doesn't necessarily have any additional qualifications, and often they are speaking outside of the scope of practice when the person leading the ovarian health yoga probably is not an expert in women's health or anything related to the ovaries." Yoga & the Industry (26:00): Matthew discusses, "There is an outsized percentage of top yoga instructors over the last 20 years. who come from theater and film or from the professional dance world […] And I think a lot of people actually come up against a block. They're like, "Oh, I have this Aesthetic skill. I can move through space. I can sing and I can dance. But now I'm using those skills to communicate spirituality. Is that okay?" The wellness world brings that contradiction into a lot of sharpness." Manufactured Charisma (29:00): Jeremiah highlights, "The other way that you can develop charisma is through outside production processes. We see things like film editing on Tiktok, for instance […] I imagine we're going to see different ways of people developing this manicured image that I am the expert because I have this really well produced film or that I have figured out how to engineer my voice to sound in a particular way." Healing & Reparative Engagement (37:00): Matthew offers, "I think that many people who are disillusioned from church life because of institutional abuse, and rightfully so, will often find themselves, in positions in which it feels like it is impossible to trust that community can be safe, or that people can actually be earnestly helpful and dependable and not betray each other, right? And so, it becomes an existential threat to the health of a person's recovery after coming out of a high demand recovery group or an abusive church environment. And so what Eve Sedgwick recommends is what she calls reparative reading. Looking to the people around you to see what are the things that are actually enjoyable or pleasurable or generative that you can actually focus on and through your attention." The Loudest Voices (41:00): Matthew points out, "Sometimes the loudest voices are the most abstract voices. They're the stickiest voices. I think that's really the problem. The more you can simplify something, the stickier it will get." The -isms & Moral Superiority (43:00): Julia says, "Something that I've noticed in liberal groups, especially the exvangelical groups, is that there's a moral superiority that can come with the paranoid reading. Like, well, I know better now because I left this group. So I see all the isms, right? I see the sexism, I see the homophobia, I see this, and you don't see it. You don't see that power differential." Self-Flagellation (53:00): Matthew highlights, "It's very easy for the politics of material change to be subsumed by this sense that as a person, I have to become a perfect vessel of something in order to be the change that I want to see in the world or something like that, right? […] Self flagellation that comes along naturally with the feeling of demoralization in late capitalism, that it's very, very difficult to be successful." Being the Perfect SJW (56:00): Julia says, "We have to be the perfect social justice warrior because God forbid we'd be called out or even worse called in. And then at the same time, we're also obsessed with self flagellating and talking about the work that we're doing and all of the ways that we're confronting our internalized stigma, and we're trying to do both at the same time: Avoid being called out while also making sure that we self flagellate and tell everyone I know about my privilege and I'm gonna preface every single thing I say by recognizing these are my areas of privilege."

We are less than two months away from the 2024 Election. This Election season is a bit different, because rather than voting for separate political parties, we're voting for two systems: democracy and autocracy (specifically, a Christian Nationalist theocracy). Autocratic governments tend to rely on disinformation, propaganda, repression of voter rights, and fear-mongering in order to develop their power. The 2024 Republican Party is no different. A lot has been written about how the public can ethically respond, and quite frankly, there aren't a lot of great answers for the next 6 months, other than voting en masse. We know responses that make it worse. Name-calling and blaming, while potentially cathartic, only entrench the polarization. Communicating around social identity ("White people do ____." Women think ____.") reinforces the stereotypes that progressivism attempts to reject. From now until Election Day, we will be releasing a series called "How to Do Social Justice Without Being a Jackass." We'll talk with our guests about how to hold our anger and fear without responding in dehumanizing ways. In our introduction episode, we talk about: EMPish Spaces & Being a Jackass (13:00): Julia notes, "To put it bluntly, folks from Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal communities, or EMPish folks, can be jackasses when it comes to communicating and upholding the values of purity culture. There's obviously overt, misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic messages often expressed directly from the pulpit or from Christian publishing houses. That can translate into some abhorrent behavior on social media. I think a lot of people are sick of it." Deconstruction as a Political Process (15:00): Jeremiah highlights, "Deconstruction, especially from EMPish communities is inherently a political process. My guess is that in two months, most of you will likely be voting for Kamala Harris in the election. Not necessarily because you agree with her strategies or policies, maybe you do, maybe you don't. But because you've walked away from communities that enact the same policies of Project 2025." Persuasion & Pointlessness (17:00): Jeremiah notes, "Trying to convince someone that they're wrong only entrenches their position, especially when that someone is fully convinced that they are right, as EMPish Republicans often do, as they've convinced themselves that Trump is sent from God to deliver a troubled American nation out of exile." Responding to Hate (20:00): Julia says, "We can talk about misogyny, but responding to misogyny with, I'm now unfriending all my friends who are misogynists that I didn't know were misogynists, is not a great way to actually respond to misogyny. Because even if they are harmful, dangerous people, dehumanizing is actually maybe only going to fuel their dangerous fire." Accessibility (25:00): Jeremiah discusses, "Our country has a pretty sordid history of removing accessibility and affordability to these basic things, be that through the reduction of taxes, which reduces government services to provide quality education and safe infrastructure, gerrymandering and other strategies to reduce voting power, or straight up discrimination that bars groups of people from receiving services and entryways to success." Relational Health (27:00): Jeremiah defines, "Relational health is a process of developing sustainable, healthy forms of collaboration with other important people that allows small groups of people to meet common shared goals, such as sexual flourishing, emotional connection, or financial support. Relational health focuses specifically on how two or more people interact with each other to solve problems and meet their goals." Jackass Distinctions (29:00): Julia says, "I'm considering how individuation is often an act of protest, which is vital. However, protest is an act of separation rather than collaboration. You and I are experts in communication and as experts in communication, we always prefer collaboration over separation. However, in the face of oppression, protest and separation, is often the only option. We'd like to distinguish Jackass-dom, which is communicating in dehumanizing ways from the important work of political protest and separation, which is necessary to preserve human rights." "Jackass-dom" Continued (31:00): Julia adds: "As relationship experts, we would love differentiation to be the dominant practice within political advocacy. That's not always the case. What we're facing in our country is not just an unwillingness of one party to acknowledge the role that the history of discrimination plays in our country, but their active recreation of discriminatory practices. Which sometimes means individuation is the only option rather than a differentiated approach." Power & Shame (34:00): Jeremiah details, "I think that's actually one of the primary ways that liberals end up being social justice jackasses.Connected to that, there's a vocabulary that liberals have developed that has linked power with shame. The more privilege you have, the more untrustworthy of an individual you are. Change takes an AA approach. The first step is admitting that you have a problem or that your privilege is a problem." Behavior v. Values (36:00): Julia draws the connection, "Behavior focuses on what a person or relationship decides to do. Value focuses on what a person or relationship chooses to do. I think liberals can do the same thing, except rather than talking about behaviors, they talk about identities. And a huge caveat, Identities are really, really important. We're not suggesting that we don't talk about it. The work of social justice in many ways requires it, but we can't end the conversation there." Reposting & Unfollowing Without Context (40:00): Julia discusses, "For starters, it pits two people or groups against each other, the Christian and the non Christian, the racist and the anti racist. Or, to go back to the example that I gave earlier in the episode, the misogynist and the anti misogynist. Look at me, I am unfriending all those people who are misogynist. How does that help anyone or anything and I actually mean that like with curiosity, I don't know how that helps anyone or anything except further reinforcing that you are virtue signaling to your echo chamber that you are a good social justice warrior that you are on the right side of history." "I'm Better Than You!" (44:00): Jeremiah notes, "Jackass-dom also includes virtue signaling and the creation of a moral hierarchy. I am a better human, or you are less evolved than me because you have these specific beliefs." Relationship 101 (46:00): Jeremiah discusses one of today's relationship 101's: "The third thing that we want to name is to take a relationship approach. As you mentioned earlier, Julia, identity is really important. However, when we start with identity, such as our gender, orientation, or race, we're talking about a large group of people and ourselves as one member of a large group of people. And as such, we become more prone to stereotypes, essentialism, or black and white thinking, and moral superiority. Instead, consider the dyadic relationships that are the most important to you. Your siblings, your partnerships, your family relationships, your best friends, and speak from the perspective of what might help those two and three person relationships thrive rather than a large group of people who may have different understandings of what it means to be a member of that orientation."