
The HealthSpark: Igniting Healthcare Management Change with Dr. Raya
by gingerraya
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On the show
Recent episodes
Beyond the Lab: Why One Engineer Chose Healthcare Consulting
Jun 11, 2026
28m 47s
Breaking Into Healthcare Leadership: Fellowships, Internships, and Early-Career Paths That Open Doors
May 14, 2026
29m 17s
Leading Where It Matters Most: David Muns on Rural Healthcare Operations, Innovation, and the Future
Apr 9, 2026
23m 34s
Rebuilding Healthcare Capacity: Beth Raboin on Virtual Staffing, Leadership, and the Workforce Crisis
Mar 12, 2026
19m 09s
Fixing Patient Access: Turning Healthcare Data into Decisions with Peyton Fry
Feb 12, 2026
26m 52s
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| Date | Episode | Description | Length | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 6/11/26 | ![]() Beyond the Lab: Why One Engineer Chose Healthcare Consulting | Podcast Episode Description – Simar Sharma In this episode, we sit down with Simar Sharma, an engineer-turned-consultant working at the forefront of life sciences strategy and healthcare innovation. Currently an Associate Consultant at Trinity Life Sciences, Simar advises biopharma clients on commercial strategy and market access across therapeutic areas including oncology, CNS, autoimmune disease, and rare conditions. With an MS in Bioengineering from UC San Diego—where she developed nanosensors for Traumatic Brain Injury diagnosis—Simar brings a rare blend of technical depth, policy awareness, and regulatory insight. Her career path from biotech research to life sciences consulting gives her a uniquely holistic perspective on how innovation actually moves from the lab bench to the patient bedside. Along the way, she leveraged case competitions, networking, and strategic career planning to successfully transition into consulting, offering valuable lessons for students and early-career professionals interested in the field. In this conversation, we explore: • The pivotal experiences that shaped her view of healthcare innovation • How case competitions influenced her professional development and helped prepare her for a career in consulting • What it really takes to break into life sciences consulting and build a successful career at the intersection of science and business • What she looks for when evaluating whether a therapeutic asset can truly succeed in the real world • Hard-earned insights from speaking with 100+ KOLs and payers—and what most people misunderstand about adoption and access • The biggest bottleneck in healthcare today: science, regulation, reimbursement, trust, or execution • Which innovations over the next 5–10 years are most likely to reshape care—and what must happen for them to stick This episode is a thoughtful deep dive into healthcare innovation, commercialization, and market access, while also providing an inside look at the consulting profession and practical advice for aspiring consultants looking to make an impact in healthcare and life sciences. 🎧 Podcast Credit Creator, Host, & Editor: Dr. Ginger Raya | 28m 47s | ||||||
| 5/14/26 | ![]() Breaking Into Healthcare Leadership: Fellowships, Internships, and Early-Career Paths That Open Doors | This episode was originally recorded last summer during a previous fellowship cycle. While some timelines and processes may have changed, the insights shared remain valuable for students and early-career professionals exploring healthcare leadership pathways. Breaking into healthcare leadership doesn’t follow just one path—and administrative fellowships are only part of the picture. In this episode, Dr. Ginger Raya sits down with three emerging leaders—Sydney Tischler, Sofia Tovar, and Britney Gomes—to unpack the full range of early-career opportunities that can launch a career in healthcare operations and leadership. From internships and graduate practicums to administrative fellowships and first post-grad roles, the conversation explores how each of these experiences builds momentum in different ways. Sydney reflects on her journey from hands-on clinical and research roles to completing an Administrative Fellowship at Baylor Scott & White Health, and into her current work leading value-based care initiatives. She shares what helped her stand out, how she evaluated opportunities strategically, and what she learned once she was inside a large health system. Sofia and Britney bring perspectives from both sides of the pipeline—pre-fellowship and current fellowship—offering honest insight into preparation, skill-building, and navigating rejection, uncertainty, and non-linear career paths. Together, they discuss: How to choose between internships, residencies, fellowships, and consulting roles What hiring leaders actually look for in early-career candidates Why some candidates advance while others stall—and how to course-correct How to think about long-term career fit across hospitals, health systems, and industry This episode is a practical playbook for students, residents, and early-career professionals looking to break into healthcare leadership—no matter which entry point they pursue. 👤 Guest Highlights Sydney Tischler, MPHProgram Manager, Value-Based CareFormer Administrative Fellow, Baylor Scott & White Health🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sydneytischler/ BIO: Sydney Tischler currently works as a Program Manager at Baylor Scott & White Health in Dallas, TX, where she collaborates on initiatives to increase access for the system's Medicare population. Sydney grew up outside of Dallas, TX, and attended the University of Texas at Austin, where she earned her undergraduate degree in public health. She developed a passion for healthcare and became involved in research, community service, and patient care. She found an interest in healthcare on a larger scale and decided to pursue an MPH in Healthcare Management at UTHealth Houston before completing an Administrative Fellowship at Baylor Scott & White Health in 2025. As an administrative fellow, she shadowed healthcare executives and worked on various projects at hospitals, clinics, joint ventures, and in other corporate departments. Through these rotations, she gained a better understanding of the healthcare landscape and developed an interest in finding ways to combine public health, clinical experience, and business ventures to provide excellent care to the community. Sofia Tovar, MPH CandidateUTHealth Houston School of Public Health🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sofia-tovar/ Britney Gomes, MPHAdministrative Fellow, Sutter Health🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/britney-gomes-50b83/ BIO: Britney Gomes is a 2025–2026 Administrative Fellow at Sutter Health in Northern California, where she focuses on ambulatory operations. In her role, she partners with clinical and executive leaders to support initiatives that improve access, patient experience, quality, and operational performance across medical practice. Britney earned her Master of Public Health in Healthcare Management from the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston in 2025 and holds a Bachelor of Science in Public Health with a minor in Sociol | 29m 17s | ||||||
| 4/9/26 | ![]() Leading Where It Matters Most: David Muns on Rural Healthcare Operations, Innovation, and the Future | Rural healthcare leaders are navigating some of the most complex operational challenges in the industry—often with fewer resources, tighter margins, and higher stakes for their communities. In this episode of Healthspark, Dr. Ginger Raya sits down with David Muns, a seasoned healthcare operations executive with more than 25 years of experience leading both large urban systems and rural facilities. From his personal leadership journey to his day-to-day work in rural hospital operations, David shares what it truly takes to keep care accessible, sustainable, and patient-centered outside of major metropolitan systems. Together, they explore: What it’s really like to lead rural healthcare organizations—and how it differs from urban systems Innovations that have meaningfully improved access, outcomes, and operations in rural settings Rural-specific strategies that larger systems could learn from The biggest threats facing rural healthcare today—and how leaders can mitigate them What the future of rural healthcare may look like, and the leadership required to shape it This conversation offers grounded insight, real-world operational wisdom, and a clear-eyed look at what’s at stake for rural communities—and the leaders committed to serving them. Guest Bio David Muns is a healthcare operations leader, speaker, and consultant with over 25 years of experience across nonprofit, public, and proprietary healthcare organizations. He has served in executive roles including Chief Operating Officer and Vice President of Inpatient Physician Services, led organizations ranging from 300 to 3,000 FTEs, and brings a unique background that includes service as a U.S. Air Force Medic. David is passionate about providing practical, real-world guidance for healthcare leaders responsible for day-to-day operations while maintaining a strong patient- and team-centered focus. David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-muns-mph-fache-341bb332/ Email: dmuns1990@gmail.com Podcast Credit Creator, Host, and Editor: Dr. Ginger Raya | 23m 34s | ||||||
| 3/12/26 | ![]() Rebuilding Healthcare Capacity: Beth Raboin on Virtual Staffing, Leadership, and the Workforce Crisis | The healthcare workforce crisis is no longer a looming threat—it’s a daily operational reality. In this episode of Healthspark, Dr. Ginger Raya sits down with Beth Raboin, CEO/Founder and the driving force behind Global Medical Virtual Assistants (GMVA), to explore how virtual staffing is reshaping the future of healthcare delivery. Beth shares her personal and professional journey—from competing as a Division I gymnast at the University of Florida to leading GMVA’s strategic vision and day-to-day operations. With more than 22 years of experience across the surgical device, pharmaceutical, and specialty pharmacy industries, Beth offers a rare blend of high-level strategy and executional insight. Together, they discuss what it truly takes to build scalable, sustainable virtual assistant solutions, why healthcare leaders must rethink how work gets done, and how innovation in staffing can help protect patient access, reduce burnout, and stabilize healthcare organizations during unprecedented workforce shortages. In this episode, you’ll hear: Beth’s leadership journey and the defining moments that shaped her career How GMVA supports healthcare organizations through virtual staffing solutions The philosophies and innovations behind building scalable healthcare operations The biggest threats facing U.S. healthcare delivery today—and how virtual staffing can help Practical advice for healthcare leaders struggling to modernize operations Guest Bio Beth Raboin is CEO and Founder leading GMVA in vision and the day-to-day business operations securing the functionality of the business to drive extensive and sustainable growth. Combining her strong leadership and determination with over 22 years of corporate experience in the private and public sector of Surgical Device, Pharmaceutical, and Specialty Pharmacy Industries – she keeps the company moving forward with high-level strategy while understanding the details of day-to-day execution to ensure steadfast success. Previous to Beth’s corporate and entrepreneur experience, she competed as a full athletic scholarship athlete as a Division I Gymnast at the University of Florida where she graduated with a Bachelor of Science at the College of Health and Human Performance in Health Sciences. Connect with Beth & GMVA Website: https://gmva.com LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/company/globalmedicalva Facebook: https://facebook.com/globalmedicalva Instagram: https://instagram.com/globalmedicalvas YouTube: https://youtube.com/@globalmedicalvirtualassistants Podcast Credit Created, hosted, and edited by Dr. Ginger Raya | 19m 09s | ||||||
| 2/12/26 | ![]() Fixing Patient Access: Turning Healthcare Data into Decisions with Peyton Fry | Patient access is one of healthcare’s most talked-about priorities—and yet one of its most persistent pain points. In this episode of Healthspark, Dr. Ginger Raya sits down with Peyton Fry, founder of Glass Raven, to unpack why access bottlenecks continue to frustrate patients, burn out staff, and quietly drain revenue from health systems. Peyton shares a candid look at the single biggest reason many healthcare analytics initiatives fail, and why problem identification and organizational context matter more than dashboards or tools alone. Together, they explore why patient access can feel both highly prioritized and consistently overlooked—and how healthcare organizations can better evaluate ROI against the real risks of adopting new technologies. This conversation also dives into what it takes to build a healthcare services business rooted in relationships, trust, and measurable outcomes. The result is a practical, grounded discussion for healthcare executives, operators, and innovators working to turn data into decisions that actually move the needle. About the Guest Peyton Fry is the founder of Glass Raven, a healthcare consulting and analytics firm specializing in patient access optimization. He helps health systems bridge the gap between operations and digital tools, translating data into scalable strategies across referral management, call center performance, and clinic capacity utilization. Peyton holds a Master of Health Administration from Texas A&M University and has partnered with organizations including Houston Methodist and Intermountain Healthcare. Guest Links Peyton Fry (LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/peyton-fry-mha-a4356862/ Glass Raven (LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/company/glass-raven/ Glass Raven Website: https://www.glassraven.health/ Podcast Creator, Host & Editor: Dr. Ginger Raya | 26m 52s | ||||||
| 1/8/26 | ![]() Saving Rural Healthcare: Syracuse’s Award-Winning Strategy | Rural hospitals across the U.S. are on the brink—operating with razor-thin margins, workforce shortages, and rising uncompensated care that threaten their survival. In this episode of Healthspark, we break down an award-winning strategy developed by Syracuse University’s first-place Fleming Case Competition team that offers a bold, data-driven blueprint for rural healthcare sustainability. Drawing on publicly available financial, population health, and broadband data, the team evaluated multiple at-risk rural regions and identified Texas’s Southeast Coastal Corridor as the strongest pilot market for transformation. Their proposed solution, the Wellness and Health Insight Model (WHIM), combines shared digital infrastructure, telehealth-enabled emergency diversion, and targeted patient engagement to reduce avoidable emergency room utilization, lower readmissions, and curb uncompensated care. The episode explores how WHIM’s regional governance model, interoperable data systems, and five-year financial pro forma translate innovation into measurable impact—projecting more than $8.4 million in cost avoidance while positioning rural hospitals for long-term sustainability beyond federal grant funding. This conversation is a masterclass in how strategy, technology, and regional collaboration can move rural hospitals from survival to sustainability—and how the next generation of healthcare leaders is already building scalable solutions. Guest Bios Zhen (Elena) Shi Zhen (Elena) Shi is an MBA candidate at Syracuse University with concentrations in Finance and Supply Chain Management. With a background in agricultural science and applied data analytics, her work has focused on using digital tools to improve productivity and sustainability in rural systems. She brings a strong strategy and operations perspective to healthcare innovation and consulting.🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/zhen-shi-170666326 Alexandra Perry Alexandra Perry is a dual M.S. in Biotechnology and MBA student at Syracuse University specializing in the intersection of clinical care, innovation, and business strategy. With hands-on experience as a medical assistant and medical scribe, she brings firsthand insight into patient workflows and healthcare operations. She plans to pursue a career in biotechnology and medical device patent law.🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-perry-1715b7220 Allison Hellman Allison Hellman is a dual MBA and Master’s in Biotechnology student at Syracuse University focused on life science consulting and healthcare strategy. A former licensed biology educator and two-time case competition winner, she led the financial modeling and governance design for the Fleming competition–winning rural healthcare strategy.🔗 http://linkedin.com/in/allison-hellman-6936baa2 Xiaoying Feng Xiaoying Feng is a marketing PhD candidate at Syracuse University whose research examines consumer behavior, artificial intelligence, and emerging technologies. With prior training in biomedical engineering and experience analyzing large-scale emergency medical services data, she contributed behavioral science and patient engagement insights to the team’s rural healthcare solution.🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/xiaoying-feng-b11a32192/ Celso Perez Mayo Celso Perez Mayo is a Master of Business Analytics student at Syracuse University with a background in supply chain management and optimization modeling. His experience spans analytics consulting, cost-performance modeling, and humanitarian logistics, bringing a systems-level perspective to healthcare sustainability challenges.🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/celso-perez-mayo-b46b54262/ Podcast Credits Host & Editor:Dr. Ginger RayaFounder of Healthspark and a healthcare strategy leader focused on innovation, systems transformation, and the future of care delivery. | 47m 21s | ||||||
| 9/11/25 | ![]() Innovating for Impact: Entrepreneurship and Health Innovation with Dr. Joshua Ortiz-Guzman | In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Joshua Ortiz-Guzman — scientist, entrepreneur, and systems builder — whose work spans biotechnology, clinical research, environmental innovation, and space technology. As Director of Clinical Research at Rio Grande Urology, Joshua leads groundbreaking cancer research in underserved communities, integrating clinical trials, real-world data, and biomarker discovery. He is also the founder of Prodigy Cells Labs, developing advanced biobanking and precision medicine platforms; Aurum Tech, engineering microbes for regenerative agriculture, waste transformation, and space-based protective systems; and Minos Life Tech, a consulting firm helping bridge science, business, and policy. His ventures have gained congressional support, SBIR funding, ISS National Lab recognition, and strategic partnerships across government and industry. We explore Joshua’s journey from advancing gene therapy at Texas Children’s Hospital to building interdisciplinary frameworks that drive real-world solutions for human and planetary health. This conversation is packed with insights on innovation, entrepreneurship, and the future of healthcare technology. 🎧 Audio Editor: Keerthi Bhoda 🔗 Connect with Dr. Joshua Ortiz-Guzman:Website: ProdigyCells.com | Aurumbio.tech | Minoslifetech.comInstagram: @joshuaortizguzmanTwitter/X: @Jpit3LinkedIn: Joshua Ortiz-Guzman, PhD | 33m 12s | ||||||
| 8/14/25 | ![]() Leveling the Playing Field: Negotiating Physician Salaries with Ethan Nkana | In this episode of Healthspark, we sit down with Ethan Nkana — attorney, MBA, and founder of Rocky Mountain Physician Agency — to talk about why doctors deserve the same contract advocacy as professional athletes. Drawing from his unique path from hospital administration to “talent agent for doctors,” Ethan shares how he helps physicians level the playing field in salary and contract negotiations, the biggest threats he sees to physician autonomy, and where innovation can drive real change in healthcare. Whether you’re a doctor in training or a seasoned physician, this conversation will give you practical insights to protect your value and your future. Audio Editor: Keerthi Bhoda 📞 Connect with Ethan Nkana:Call/Text: 720.471.0059📱 Instagram: @physicianagency📘 Facebook: Ethan Nkana JD MBA🐦 X (Twitter): Rocky Mountain Physician Agency official account (linked via RMPA.co)💼 LinkedIn: Ethan Nkana / Rocky Mountain Physician Agency▶️ YouTube: Rocky Mountain Physician Agency channel (linked via RMPA.co) 💻 Website: RMPA.co | 27m 34s | ||||||
| 7/10/25 | ![]() Breaking the Stigma: Mental Health & Healing | Celeste Nevarez, MC, MPH, LPC-S Chief of Clinical Services at Emergence Health Network Celeste Nevarez is a dedicated mental health professional and healthcare leader, currently serving as the Chief of Clinical Services at Emergence Health Network in El Paso, Texas. With over a decade of experience, she has significantly contributed to the mental health sector, particularly in addressing impact of trauma. Celeste holds a Master of Counseling degree from Arizona State University and a Master of Public Health degree in Healthcare Management from UTHealth Houston. Her dual expertise in counseling and healthcare management allows her to bridge the gap between mental health and healthcare systems, fostering a holistic approach to community well-being. Celeste is also an accomplished educator, having taught courses in mental health counseling and psychology at the University of Texas at El Paso and El Paso Community College. Through her work, Celeste continues to champion the importance of public health literacy, accessible mental health services, and the integration of trauma-informed care practices, making a lasting impact on the El Paso community. Connect with Celeste 💼 LinkedIn: celestenevarezlpcs https://www.linkedin.com/in/celestenevarezlpcs/ Lead audio editor: Lily Villarreal | 21m 31s | ||||||
| 6/12/25 | ![]() Airing It Out: Humor, Healing & Reinvention | A raw, hilarious take on life, leadership, and reinvention! Former hospital CEO Allie Trimble Lozano joins us to share her deeply personal journey—from divorce and career upheaval to self-discovery and empowerment. 🎙️😂 💬 Honest, bold, and inspiring—don’t miss this one!#WomenWhoLead #SelfGrowth #HealthSparkPodcast Today I’m talking to Allie Trimble Lozano about healthcare leadership, personal growth, and what it really means to lead with authenticity. Allie is a former CEO of multiple hospitals across Texas, a nurse, and a dedicated mother with over 20 years in healthcare. She rose to executive leadership in her 30s and discovered a deeper calling: building strong teams, fostering connection, and driving meaningful change. Now an acclaimed author and sought-after speaker, Allie uses humor and honesty to inspire others to embrace resilience, challenge the status quo, and lead with confidence. Through speaking and leadership coaching, she helps women and professionals transform workplace culture and step fully into their leadership potential. Connect with Allie:🌐 Website: www.allietrimblelozano.com📸 Instagram: @allietrimblelozano💼 LinkedIn: allie-lozano-19351b58 Audio Credits: Lead audio editor: Richard Martinez Second editor: Lily Villarreal | 23m 27s | ||||||
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| 5/8/25 | ![]() AI & the Law: Navigating Healthcare’s Legal Frontier | ⚖️ AI is reshaping healthcare—are the laws keeping up? Lawyer & tech expert Alex Shahrestani breaks down the legal landmines of AI in medicine, from privacy risks to ethical dilemmas. 🎙️🤖💬 A must-listen for healthcare innovators! #AIinHealthcare #LegalTech #HealthSparkPodcast Today I am talking to Alex Shahrestani about his innovative work at the intersection of law and technology! Alex is a multifaceted professional with a robust background in both legal and technological fields, making him a thought leader and advocate for integrating emerging tech into the legal domain. He earned his JD from the University of Texas School of Law, which perfectly complements his deep insight into high-tech issues and complex legal frameworks. Specializing in data privacy, cybersecurity, intellectual property, and the regulatory challenges posed by artificial intelligence and blockchain technologies, Alex has dedicated his career to examining how these advancements impact societal norms and legal ethics. He has been involved in numerous initiatives aimed at bridging the gap between technology and the law, actively contributing to academic and professional discussions on current trends and future directions. In addition to his influential work behind the scenes, Alex is a dynamic public speaker and educator known for making complex legal and technological concepts accessible to a broad audience. His efforts not only foster dialogue between tech innovators and legal practitioners but also advocate for policies that balance technological progress with essential legal principles. 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/promise.legal 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/promise-legal/ 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/promise.legal/ 🐦 Twitter: https://x.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fpromiselegal 🎮 Discord: https://discord.com/invite/vwJpYNHuVb Audio Credits: Lead audio editor: Lily Villarreal Second editor: Richard Martinez | 35m 25s | ||||||
| 4/10/25 | ![]() Leading with Heart: A CEO’s Journey in Healthcare | What does it take to lead in healthcare? Former hospital CEO Allie Trimble Lozano shares her journey of running microhospitals, building strong teams, and transforming patient care. 🎙️💼💬 Get inspired—listen now! #Leadership #HealthcareCEO #HealthSparkPodcast Today I am talking to Allie Trimble Lozano about her journey in healthcare leadership, personal growth, and empowering others to lead with authenticity! Allie is a former CEO of multiple hospitals across Texas, a nurse, and a dedicated mother with over 20 years of experience in healthcare. Rising to executive leadership in her 30s, she discovered that her true passion lies in building strong teams, fostering connections, and driving meaningful change in the industry. Now an acclaimed author and sought-after speaker, Allie inspires others to embrace resilience and lead with authenticity. Through her speaking engagements and leadership coaching, she empowers women and industry leaders to cultivate transparency, transform workplace culture, and confidently step into leadership roles. Connect with Allie:🌐 Website: www.allietrimblelozano.com📸 Instagram: @allietrimblelozano💼 LinkedIn: allie-lozano-19351b58 Audio Credits: Lead audio editor: Richard Martinez Second editor: Lily Villarreal | 24m 43s | ||||||
| 3/12/25 | ![]() AI for Good: Transforming Healthcare Responsibly | 🚀 Generative AI is changing healthcare—are we ready? Former global tech leader and AI strategist Rebecca Gonzalez reveals the risks, rewards, and responsibilities of AI-driven medicine. 🎙️🤯💬 Tune in for the future of healthcare! #AIRevolution #HealthcareTech #HealthSparkPodcast Today I am talking to Rebecca Y. Gonzales about her journey in the world of technology and responsible AI! Rebecca is the Chief Customer Officer at The Cantellus Group, where she helps organizations translate technology into business value and social impact. With a career spanning over two decades in the tech industry, she has a deep expertise in harnessing advanced technologies like artificial intelligence while ensuring ethical and responsible implementation. Before joining The Cantellus Group, Rebecca was the Global Head of Enablement at the Generative AI Innovation Center at Amazon Web Services. In this role, she led global initiatives focused on leveraging AI to drive innovation and create meaningful solutions for customers worldwide. She has dedicated six years to responsible technology, advising enterprises on how to deploy AI while respecting human rights, mitigating bias, and reducing harm. Her passion lies in empowering others to use AI for positive change. Rebecca’s career also includes leadership roles at Dell Technologies and Advanced Micro Devices, where she specialized in business development, alliances, and consulting management. She is a sought-after speaker on responsible AI and the impact of technology on marginalized communities. Rebecca holds a bachelor’s degree in journalism from SMU, a Managerial Certificate from McCombs Business School at UT Austin, and Certificates in Responsible AI from both MIT and Harvard. She and her husband split their time between Austin, TX, and Lisbon, Portugal. Connect with Rebecca: 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebeccaygonzales/Rebecca Y. GonzalesCantellus Website: https://www.cantellusgroup.com/Cantellus Group Audio Credits: Lead audio editor: Lily Villarreal Second editor: Richard Martinez | 38m 05s | ||||||
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