The Innovation Show

"Narcissists do draw people in. They start with really appealing visions — and then the wheels come off." About 2% of people are narcissists. Among CEOs, it's roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman — Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and one of the world's leading scholars of organisational culture — joins Aidan McCullen to explain why narcissistic leadership is so often mistaken for visionary leadership, and how to tell the two apart before one wrecks your company. Drawing on her widely cited article with Stanford's Charles O'Reilly, "Transformational Leader or Narcissist?", and her new book Making Organizational Culture Great, Jennifer separates the grandiose vision we admire from the exploitation that comes attached to it. This episode follows directly on from the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile — because Jobs is one of the case studies. In this conversation, Jennifer reveals: Why a narcissistic CEO's pay quietly pulls away from their team's over time — and what that gap really measures The single interview question that exposes a narcissist: "Who did you bring along with you?" Why Steve Jobs ended his career with 13 senior leaders who'd stayed 13 years — and what that says about him How "grandiose vision" and "narcissism" overlap on a Venn diagram — and where they split The "dark triad" that turns confidence into damage: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism Why narcissistic CEOs file far more lawsuits — yet win no more of them The counter-intuitive team move: group your narcissists together Why narcissism's damage to a culture is "sticky" — it lingers long after the leader leaves How to shield yourself when you can't leave — and when to look for the exit Why chaos and uncertainty are a narcissist's favourite weather Chapters 00:00 Cold open: how narcissist CEOs pull away from their teams 02:00 Welcome Jennifer Chatman, and the Steve Jobs connection 04:00 Kalanick, Holmes, Trump: the quotes that give a narcissist away 05:00 Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists — and how they draw you in 07:00 The delayed damage: pay, credit, and the dark triad 16:00 The one question that exposes a narcissist 19:00 Risk, lawsuits, and the denial of failure 24:00 Ethics, collaboration, and the sticky cost to culture 27:00 How to protect yourself, and Making Organizational Culture Great (Timestamps follow the transcript markers — shift after the final edit.) About the Host Aidan McCullen, 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI/disruption/innovation/change, host of The Innovation Show, author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Links: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen About the Guest Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer. With Stanford's Charles O'Reilly she wrote the widely cited article "Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destroy Organizations and Institutions," and with Glenn Carroll she is the author of Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026). Link: https://www.jenniferachatman.com About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Making Organizational Culture Great, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Connect: Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

This week's guest is David Rogers, Columbia Business School professor and author of Digital Transformation Playbook. We discuss digital transformation strategy, AI in business, disruptive innovation, platform business models, network effects, and leadership in the age of AI. If you're navigating digital transformation or AI strategy, this episode is essential listening. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:35 Meet the Digital Transformation Expert 01:38 Impact of the Digital Transformation Playbook 05:40 Evolution of Digital Transformation 07:24 The Role of AI in Digital Transformation 09:21 Frameworks and Theories of Disruption 09:38 The Story of Encyclopedia Britannica 16:59 Understanding Business Disruption 24:44 Disruptive Business Model Map 33:12 Understanding Network Effects 34:41 Same Side vs. Cross Side Network Effects 38:01 The Challenge of Competition in Platform Businesses 42:21 The Importance of Platform Business Models 46:13 Four Types of Platform Businesses 49:19 Platform Business Model Map 54:28 Value Train Analysis 01:02:22 The Evolution of Digital Transformation Find David: https://davidrogers.digital/about/

In this episode, Aidan McCullen welcomes Kevin Evers, editor at Harvard Business Review Press and author of There's Nothing Like This: The Strategic Genius of Taylor Swift. Together, they explore how Taylor Swift built not just a music career—but a global business empire. From fearless reinvention and blue ocean strategy to her mastery of fan engagement and brand evolution, Taylor Swift's rise is a masterclass in innovation, leadership, and vision. Learn how her career mirrors the strategic moves of top businesses, and what leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators can take away from her story. Tune in for: The psychology and strategy behind Swift's career decisions How she shaped fan culture and digital engagement Lessons in brand authenticity, creative growth, and leadership What businesses can learn from Swift's reinvention and market disruption Whether you're a Swiftie, strategist, or business leader, this episode offers sharp insights into how to turn art into lasting impact. Find Kevin: https://www.nothinglikethisbook.com

In this episode, we sit down with Gary Klein, author of Seeing What Others Don't, to explore the fascinating science behind insights and how organizations can foster smarter thinking and innovation. Klein dives deep into over 120 real-world stories he's collected—ranging from Daniel Boone to Napoleon—and explains the two powerful triggers behind most breakthroughs: connections and anomalies. Discover how organizations often suppress insights, and why a focus on predictability and perfection can kill innovation. Learn about his new concept of Insight Audits and how leaders can shift their environments to better capture the power of spontaneous insight. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:27 Guest Introduction: Gary Klein 00:59 Collecting Stories of Success 02:19 The Down Arrow vs. The Up Arrow 04:43 Investigating Insights 05:38 Themes of Insight: Connections and Discrepancies 07:10 Historical Models of Insight 09:16 Organizational Barriers to Insight 11:17 The Perfection and Predictability Traps 15:06 Case Studies: Missed Discoveries 25:14 The Garden Path Phenomenon 32:30 Insight Audits in Organizations 36:48 Ideas That Escape: Case Studies and Suppression 37:27 The Battle of Midway: Intelligence and Strategy 41:38 The 1973 Yom Kippur War: Ignored Warnings 47:23 Napoleon's Tactical Genius at Toulon 50:58 Creative Desperation: The Mann Gulch Fire 58:42 Yellow Fever: The Mosquito Hypothesis 01:06:46 Daniel Boone: Abandoning the Project Plan 01:10:47 Conclusion and Resources Find Gary here: https://www.shadowboxtraining.com/our-team/people/gklein/ Find Seeing What Others Don't: The Remarkable Ways We Gain Insights here: https://amzn.to/4qNlekq Don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review if you enjoy these deep dives into cognitive science, decision-making, and innovation. More at theinnovationshow.io Gary Klein, insight generation, organizational innovation, decision making, cognitive psychology, seeing what others don't, leadership, business strategy, Aidan McCullen, the innovation show