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On the show
From 17 epsHosts
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Recent episodes
Jennifer Chatman — Transformational Leader or Narcissist?
Jun 24, 2026
Unknown duration
Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile, Part 2: NeXT's Failures, Pixar's Lifeline and the Road Back to Apple
Jun 15, 2026
Unknown duration
Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary
Jun 10, 2026
1h 19m 17s
AI Is Rewiring Organizations — McGrath, Osterwalder, Amla & Sheikh
Jun 3, 2026
55m 59s
Eric Ries — How to Build an Incorruptible Organisation
May 27, 2026
34m 45s
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| Date | Episode | Topics | Guests | Brands | Places | Keywords | Sponsor | Length | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 6/24/26 | Jennifer Chatman — Transformational Leader or Narcissist? | "Narcissists do draw people in. They start with really appealing visions — and then the wheels come off." About 2% of people are narcissists. Among CEOs, it's roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman — Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and one of the world's leading scholars of organisational culture — joins Aidan McCullen to explain why narcissistic leadership is so often mistaken for visionary leadership, and how to tell the two apart before one wrecks your company. Drawing on her widely cited article with Stanford's Charles O'Reilly, "Transformational Leader or Narcissist?", and her new book Making Organizational Culture Great, Jennifer separates the grandiose vision we admire from the exploitation that comes attached to it. This episode follows directly on from the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile — because Jobs is one of the case studies. In this conversation, Jennifer reveals: Why a narcissistic CEO's pay quietly pulls away from their team's over time — and what that gap really measures The single interview question that exposes a narcissist: "Who did you bring along with you?" Why Steve Jobs ended his career with 13 senior leaders who'd stayed 13 years — and what that says about him How "grandiose vision" and "narcissism" overlap on a Venn diagram — and where they split The "dark triad" that turns confidence into damage: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism Why narcissistic CEOs file far more lawsuits — yet win no more of them The counter-intuitive team move: group your narcissists together Why narcissism's damage to a culture is "sticky" — it lingers long after the leader leaves How to shield yourself when you can't leave — and when to look for the exit Why chaos and uncertainty are a narcissist's favourite weather Chapters 00:00 Cold open: how narcissist CEOs pull away from their teams 02:00 Welcome Jennifer Chatman, and the Steve Jobs connection 04:00 Kalanick, Holmes, Trump: the quotes that give a narcissist away 05:00 Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists — and how they draw you in 07:00 The delayed damage: pay, credit, and the dark triad 16:00 The one question that exposes a narcissist 19:00 Risk, lawsuits, and the denial of failure 24:00 Ethics, collaboration, and the sticky cost to culture 27:00 How to protect yourself, and Making Organizational Culture Great (Timestamps follow the transcript markers — shift after the final edit.) About the Host Aidan McCullen, 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI/disruption/innovation/change, host of The Innovation Show, author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Links: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen About the Guest Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer. With Stanford's Charles O'Reilly she wrote the widely cited article "Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destroy Organizations and Institutions," and with Glenn Carroll she is the author of Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026). Link: https://www.jenniferachatman.com About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Making Organizational Culture Great, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Connect: Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen | — | ||||||
| 6/15/26 | Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile, Part 2: NeXT's Failures, Pixar's Lifeline and the Road Back to Apple | Steve Jobs sold barely 100 computers a month at NeXT — and told his team they'd sell 100,000. This is the decade everyone skips. Author Geoffrey Cain joins Aidan McCullen for part two on Steve Jobs in Exile, the story of the wilderness years between Jobs' 1985 ousting from Apple and his return. Cain reframes the NeXT era not as a triumphant hero's journey but as a cascade of failure, ego and self-sabotage that quietly forged the leader Jobs became. In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals: Why the "reality distortion field" stopped working the moment the $6,500 NeXTcube shipped How Jobs sabotaged an IBM deal that could have made NeXTSTEP, not Windows, the world's operating system The airport moment he abandoned his own salesman in front of 800 IBM engineers Why he killed Ross Perot's pipeline to the CIA, NSA and Pentagon with five words: "I don't like the feds" How a Daffy Duck demo blew up a Disney deal worth thousands of computers Why Tim Berners-Lee built the entire World Wide Web on a single NeXTcube in 1990 How the creators of Doom were turned away because Jobs "didn't like games" The advisor's warning Jobs ignored for a decade: "your assets have feet" Why putting on a grey suit to sell enterprise software was the moment he finally grew up The random mid-level phone call — not Jobs' idea — that put him back on the road to Apple Chapters: 00:00 Think beyond use cases 00:38 Sponsor message 01:03 Part two begins 01:54 NeXT revenge era 03:48 Reality distorts back 04:56 Cube launch hype 05:59 Sales reality check 06:48 Founder market lesson 08:04 The hero–shithead rollercoaster 12:09 Carrot and stick leadership 13:25 Assets have feet 14:57 Co-founders depart 17:50 Buggy cube problems 18:53 Writing the donut hole 19:57 Canon investment drama 21:33 IBM deal sabotage 25:40 Ross Perot fallout 28:13 No feds market 28:48 Disney deal blow-up 31:03 NeXT powers the web 32:32 Doom and missed gaming 33:28 Lesson for AI builders 35:32 Motorola dumps NeXT 38:40 Rock bottom pivot 40:07 Enterprise sales Jobs 43:34 WebObjects breakthrough 48:06 Pixar vindication 51:05 Phone call to Apple 54:47 Wrap up and sponsor About Geoffrey Cain: Geoffrey Cain is an author and investigative journalist. His book Steve Jobs in Exile chronicles the NeXT and Pixar years, and he also wrote Samsung Rising. Website: https://geoffreycain.net Substack (The Burner Files): https://geoffreycain.substack.com X: https://x.com/Geoffrey_Cain About The Innovation Show: The Innovation Show is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for extra content and webinars. Connect: Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Substack: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen About the Author Geoffrey Cain is an author and investigative journalist, and the author of Steve Jobs in Exile and Samsung Rising. https://geoffreycain.net — https://geoffreycain.substack.com About the Host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen | — | ||||||
| 6/10/26 | Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary✨ | Steve JobsNeXT+4 | Geoffrey Cain | AppleNeXT+2 | — | Steve JobsNeXT+8 | — | 1h 19m 17s | |
| 6/3/26 | ![]() AI Is Rewiring Organizations — McGrath, Osterwalder, Amla & Sheikh✨ | AI in organizationsinnovation+3 | Rita McGrathAlexander Osterwalder+2 | Kyndryl InstituteWix+7 | — | AIbusiness strategy+5 | — | 55m 59s | |
| 5/27/26 | Eric Ries — How to Build an Incorruptible Organisation✨ | business ethicsorganizational integrity+4 | Eric Ries | Long-Term Stock ExchangeIncorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great+2 | — | incorruptible organizationmission drift+5 | — | 34m 45s | |
| 5/20/26 | ![]() Bruce Vojak — Identifying, Developing and Managing Serial Innovators (Part 3 of 3)✨ | serial innovatorsinnovation management+3 | Bruce Vojak | SAICUniversity of Illinois College of Engineering+1 | — | serial innovatorsinnovation+5 | — | 1h 12m 40s | |
| 5/14/26 | ![]() Bruce Vojak — Navigating the Politics of Breakthrough Innovation (Part 2 of 3)✨ | breakthrough innovationorganizational politics+3 | Bruce Vojak | OlayBreakthrough Innovation Advisors+2 | — | innovationpolitics+3 | — | 56m 18s | |
| 5/13/26 | ![]() Bruce Vojak — The Hourglass Model of Breakthrough Innovation✨ | Hourglass Innovation Modelbreakthrough innovation+5 | Bruce Vojak | Oxford University PressSerial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms | — | innovationHourglass Model+5 | — | 13m 27s | |
| 5/7/26 | ![]() Bruce Vojak — Serial Innovators: The Hidden Power Inside Mature Firms (Part 1)✨ | innovationbusiness strategy+3 | Bruce Vojak | Procter & GambleSerial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms | — | serial innovatorsbreakthrough innovation+3 | — | 1h 24m 42s | |
| 4/27/26 | ![]() Jeff & Staney DeGraff — The Art of Change (DeGraff Trilogy Finale)✨ | innovationchange management+3 | Jeff DeGraffStaney DeGraff | Operation Warp SpeedSears | — | innovationchange+5 | — | 1h 22m 51s | |
Want analysis for the episodes below?Free for Pro Submit a request, we'll have your selected episodes analyzed within an hour. Free, at no cost to you, for Pro users. | |||||||||
| 4/22/26 | ![]() Creativity Is a Skill: Jeff & Staney DeGraff on the C.R.E.A.T.E. Method (Clarify to Evaluate)✨ | creativityinnovation+3 | Jeff DeGraffStaney DeGraff | — | — | creativityinnovation+5 | Kyndryl | 51m 13s | |
| 4/15/26 | ![]() Innovation Isn't Harmony—It's Conflict | The Innovation Code Explained✨ | innovationconflict+3 | Jeff DeGraffStaney DeGraff | The Innovation Code | — | innovationconflict+3 | — | 57m 22s | |
| 4/8/26 | ![]() AI and the Octopus Organization: Autonomy, Distributed Intelligence, and Faster Decision-Making✨ | AIorganizational structure+4 | Stephen WunkerJonathan Brill | L'OréalDeep Invent | — | AIOctopus Organization+5 | — | 44m 29s | |
| 4/1/26 | ![]() Split the Pie: Barry Nalebuff on Fair Negotiation, Game Theory, and Better Deals✨ | negotiationgame theory+4 | Barry Nalebuff | YaleCoca-Cola+1 | — | negotiationgame theory+5 | — | 58m 04s | |
| 3/24/26 | ![]() Nokia Saw iPhone Coming - So What Went Wrong?✨ | disruptionbusiness model+4 | Timo Partanen | NokiaApple+4 | — | NokiaiPhone+6 | — | 56m 43s | |
| 3/18/26 | ![]() Nokia's Comeback Explained: Emotion, Strategy & Boardroom Decisions✨ | Nokiabusiness strategy+4 | Quy HuyTimo Vuori | NokiaINSEAD+1 | — | Nokiastrategy+5 | Kyndryl | 1h 03m 49s | |
| 3/10/26 | ![]() Everyone Thinks the iPhone Killed Nokia. They're Wrong!✨ | NokiaiPhone+5 | — | NokiaApple+1 | — | NokiaiPhone+8 | — | 1h 04m 38s | |
| 3/5/26 | ![]() Who Killed Nokia? How Fear and Emotion Derail Strategy, Innovation, and Truth-Telling.✨ | Nokia's collapsefear and emotion in leadership+3 | Quy HuyTimo Vuori | INSEADAalto University+1 | — | Nokiasmartphone battle+5 | — | 55m 31s | |
| 2/23/26 | ![]() The Spectacular Rise and Fall of BlackBerry with Jacquie McNish✨ | BlackBerry historyleadership psychology+4 | Jacquie McNish | Research In MotionBlackBerry+3 | 9/11 | BlackBerryinnovation+6 | — | 1h 19m 48s | |
| 2/18/26 | ![]() Corporate Innovation Strategy: Return Maps, Managing Up & Forecasting with Chuck House | Why does corporate innovation fail so often — even with talented teams and strong ideas? In this episode of The Innovation Show with Aidan McCullen, intrapreneur and innovation veteran Chuck House returns to explain why innovation dies when projects, programs, and strategy aren't clearly connected — and why executives often misjudge innovation timelines because they're optimizing established businesses. Chuck breaks down the 4 intrapreneur traits (curiosity, perspective, resilience, and comfort with data) and the overlooked career skill that makes or breaks intrapreneurs: managing down AND managing up. Learn how to build team trust, navigate organizational politics, make "invisible work" visible, and persuade decision-makers to keep the right bets alive. He also challenges traditional project review approaches (IRR, cost/schedule targets, early sales projections) and introduces his practical alignment tool: the Return Map — a living, cross-functional view that integrates investment, revenue, and profit over time, assigns accountability across functions, and forces iterative re-forecasting as reality changes (slips, market windows, manufacturing costs, and sales forecasts). In this episode Why innovation feels like "snakes and ladders" inside large organisations Steve Jobs as a blueprint: iPod → iTunes → iPhone as a strategic cycle Managing up: credibility, trust, and navigating corporate politics Why HQ metrics can kill risky projects too early Brunnergrams vs strategy: what engineering tracking misses How Return Maps improve alignment, accountability, and forecasting Teaser: a future conversation with Kodak digital camera inventor Steve Sasson Sponsor: Kyndryl | — | ||||||
| 2/11/26 | ![]() Digital Transformation Playbook (10 Years On) AI, Disruption & Platform Strategy with David Rogers | This week's guest is David Rogers, Columbia Business School professor and author of Digital Transformation Playbook. We discuss digital transformation strategy, AI in business, disruptive innovation, platform business models, network effects, and leadership in the age of AI. If you're navigating digital transformation or AI strategy, this episode is essential listening. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:35 Meet the Digital Transformation Expert 01:38 Impact of the Digital Transformation Playbook 05:40 Evolution of Digital Transformation 07:24 The Role of AI in Digital Transformation 09:21 Frameworks and Theories of Disruption 09:38 The Story of Encyclopedia Britannica 16:59 Understanding Business Disruption 24:44 Disruptive Business Model Map 33:12 Understanding Network Effects 34:41 Same Side vs. Cross Side Network Effects 38:01 The Challenge of Competition in Platform Businesses 42:21 The Importance of Platform Business Models 46:13 Four Types of Platform Businesses 49:19 Platform Business Model Map 54:28 Value Train Analysis 01:02:22 The Evolution of Digital Transformation Find David: https://davidrogers.digital/about/ | — | ||||||
| 2/3/26 | ![]() Behind the Music: The Strategic Genius of Taylor Swift Part 2 with Kevin Evers | In this episode, we explore the strategic brilliance of Taylor Swift with Kevin Evers, author of There's Nothing Like This. From genre-shifting reinventions to billion-dollar tours, Taylor's evolution isn't just musical—it's a masterclass in brand, resilience, and audience engagement. 🎯 We cover: The pivot from country to global pop dominance How Taylor handled public backlash & the Kanye/Kardashian controversy Her savvy response to the streaming revolution Ownership battles over her masters and how it reshaped the industry Building the Eras Tour as a pinnacle of fan-first strategy What businesses can learn from Taylor's "anti-fragile" mindset Whether you're a fan, a founder, or fascinated by the music business, this is a powerful look at how strategy meets stardom. 🔗 Learn more about Kevin's book: nothinglikethisbook.com 🎧 Subscribe and leave a review to support the show! https://thethursdaythought.substack.com | — | ||||||
| 1/28/26 | ![]() The Strategic Genius of Taylor Swift with Kevin Evers-esv2-96p-bg-10p | In this episode, Aidan McCullen welcomes Kevin Evers, editor at Harvard Business Review Press and author of There's Nothing Like This: The Strategic Genius of Taylor Swift. Together, they explore how Taylor Swift built not just a music career—but a global business empire. From fearless reinvention and blue ocean strategy to her mastery of fan engagement and brand evolution, Taylor Swift's rise is a masterclass in innovation, leadership, and vision. Learn how her career mirrors the strategic moves of top businesses, and what leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators can take away from her story. Tune in for: The psychology and strategy behind Swift's career decisions How she shaped fan culture and digital engagement Lessons in brand authenticity, creative growth, and leadership What businesses can learn from Swift's reinvention and market disruption Whether you're a Swiftie, strategist, or business leader, this episode offers sharp insights into how to turn art into lasting impact. Find Kevin: https://www.nothinglikethisbook.com | — | ||||||
| 1/21/26 | ![]() From Rambling to Impact The Power of Making a Point | 📘 Guest: Joel Schwartzberg, author of Get to the Point & The Language of Leadership In this episode, we cut through the noise and get straight to the point—literally. Communication expert and author Joel Schwartzberg returns to discuss the art and science of clarity in communication. Whether you're a leader, innovator, speaker, or simply want to stop rambling and start resonating, this episode is packed with practical, game-changing advice. We explore: Why having a clear point is the cornerstone of influence How to sharpen your message with Joel's "I believe" and "XY" tests The power of pausing, volume, and emotional contagion in speech How to handle interruptions with grace and still deliver your message Real-life analysis of effective speeches (including a powerful moment from Demi Moore) The role of AI in crafting and questioning your communication Sticking the landing: how to end your message with lasting impact 💡 If you've ever struggled to communicate a big idea or felt your message wasn't landing—this episode is your ultimate toolkit. 🔗 Show Notes & Resources: Joel's website: joelschwartzberg.net Book: Get to the Point (Updated 10-Year Anniversary Edition) Sponsored by: Kyndryl.com Innovation Show https://thethursdaythought.substack.com | — | ||||||
| 1/14/26 | ![]() Unlocking the Power of Insights with Gary Klein | Insights and Innovation | In this episode, we sit down with Gary Klein, author of Seeing What Others Don't, to explore the fascinating science behind insights and how organizations can foster smarter thinking and innovation. Klein dives deep into over 120 real-world stories he's collected—ranging from Daniel Boone to Napoleon—and explains the two powerful triggers behind most breakthroughs: connections and anomalies. Discover how organizations often suppress insights, and why a focus on predictability and perfection can kill innovation. Learn about his new concept of Insight Audits and how leaders can shift their environments to better capture the power of spontaneous insight. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:27 Guest Introduction: Gary Klein 00:59 Collecting Stories of Success 02:19 The Down Arrow vs. The Up Arrow 04:43 Investigating Insights 05:38 Themes of Insight: Connections and Discrepancies 07:10 Historical Models of Insight 09:16 Organizational Barriers to Insight 11:17 The Perfection and Predictability Traps 15:06 Case Studies: Missed Discoveries 25:14 The Garden Path Phenomenon 32:30 Insight Audits in Organizations 36:48 Ideas That Escape: Case Studies and Suppression 37:27 The Battle of Midway: Intelligence and Strategy 41:38 The 1973 Yom Kippur War: Ignored Warnings 47:23 Napoleon's Tactical Genius at Toulon 50:58 Creative Desperation: The Mann Gulch Fire 58:42 Yellow Fever: The Mosquito Hypothesis 01:06:46 Daniel Boone: Abandoning the Project Plan 01:10:47 Conclusion and Resources Find Gary here: https://www.shadowboxtraining.com/our-team/people/gklein/ Find Seeing What Others Don't: The Remarkable Ways We Gain Insights here: https://amzn.to/4qNlekq Don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review if you enjoy these deep dives into cognitive science, decision-making, and innovation. More at theinnovationshow.io Gary Klein, insight generation, organizational innovation, decision making, cognitive psychology, seeing what others don't, leadership, business strategy, Aidan McCullen, the innovation show | — | ||||||
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