The Kirkpatrick Podcast

Most organizations are confident they have data. Loads of it. But in this episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa sits down with psychometrician and data-analytics professor Dr. Anna Lissitz to ask the uncomfortable question: is it the right data — and is it telling you the truth? Anna, who wrote the triangulation chapter in Building a Culture of Evaluation, makes the case that a single metric — measured one way, at one moment, from one perspective — simply cannot tell the whole story. Worse, the data leaders feel most confident about is often the data that just confirms what they already believed. Together they unpack why completion rates and satisfaction scores feel safe but hide poor performance, what separates valid data from merely available data, and how triangulation turns shaky numbers into decisions you can stand behind. In this episode: • Why "we have lots of data" and "we have good data" are not the same thing • The difference between valid data and available data — and why it matters • How triangulation protects you from false confidence and confirmation bias • Why a low survey response rate is itself a finding, not a dead end • Where AI helps with evaluation — and where it can quietly mislead you Ready to stop studying evaluation and start building it? The Kirkpatrick® Builder Certification is a hands-on, live-online program where you design a complete set of evaluation instruments across all four levels — for your own initiative. The founding cohort runs Sept 28–Oct 2, 2026. Learn more and register at kirkpatrickpartners.com. Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Ask executives whether they act on the feedback they get from employees, and 85 to 95% will say absolutely. Ask the frontline the same question, and the score drops by 30 to 50 points. That gap is the heart of this episode. Vanessa sits down with Dr. Benjamin Granger, Chief Workplace Psychologist at Qualtrics, a contributor to her book Building a Culture of Evaluation and author of A Leader Worth Following. Together they unpack one of the most persistent findings in Ben's research: most leaders aren't failing to act on feedback — they're failing to communicate the action they took. The connection between what people said and what changed never gets made explicit, so employees conclude nothing happened at all. That, Ben argues, is the real driver of survey fatigue. It isn't that surveys are too long (though many are). It's "survey-in-action fatigue" — people stop responding because they never see their input go anywhere. Close the loop, and engagement follows. Key takeaways: the action gap is usually a communication gap; people stop responding when they never see results; closing the loop builds the trust a culture of evaluation depends on; and even the work you can't publicize still needs to be communicated. Connect with Dr. Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-granger-7147991b/ Grab his book, A Leader Worth Following: https://a.co/d/0bHdxAUB Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members. 👉 Learn more and apply Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply. 👉 Learn more Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

In this episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa Milara Alzate makes a bold claim: your evaluation efforts aren't failing because of your model, your data, or your people. They're failing because of your system. Vanessa reframes the perennial conversation around leadership alignment and evaluation by shifting the focus to system alignment — the processes, tools, incentives, reporting structures, and governance that either enable or block behavior change. Drawing on James Clear's Atomic Habits framework and her own experience building consistent workout and wellness habits, she illustrates how even the most committed people can't perform consistently inside inconsistent systems. Key takeaways from this episode: • Systems — not mindsets alone — determine whether evaluation sticks. If your system rewards activity over outcomes or tracks completion instead of performance, it's designed to fail. • Four common system failures: disconnected processes, misaligned measures, no feedback loops, and undefined ownership of behavior change. • Governance isn't bureaucracy. It's the clarity that answers who owns what, what gets measured, and how data drives decisions. • Kirkpatrick certification alone isn't enough. You also have to build the systems and processes that keep evaluation running — even when your certified person leaves. • A Center of Excellence builds the governance structure that transforms evaluation from an isolated activity into an organizational capability. Learning Impact Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The Learning Impact Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment and get clarity on your next step. Building a Culture of Evaluation Order the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey. 👉 Order the book now Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Most organizations say they want better measurement. They invest in tools, dashboards, and surveys. They ask their L&D teams to prove impact. And yet, nothing really changes. Programs still get evaluated based on completion rates and satisfaction scores. Decisions are still made without clear evidence of behavior change or business impact. And L&D teams remain stuck trying to "prove value" instead of driving it. This isn't a capability issue. It's a leadership issue. In this episode, we unpack a critical but often overlooked truth: evaluation doesn't fail because teams lack skill or effort. It fails because leadership hasn't taken ownership of it as a system for decision-making. Leaders shape what gets measured, what gets discussed, and ultimately what improves. When their questions stay focused on activity metrics, the organization optimizes for activity. When their questions shift to behavior and results, performance follows. This episode challenges leaders to move beyond passive support and step into active ownership of evaluation as a strategic driver of performance. Takeaways 1. Stop asking activity-based questions Shift from "Did people complete it?" to "What changed because of it?" 2. Recognize that metrics follow leadership behavior Your organization reflects what leaders consistently ask, reward, and tolerate. 3. Move from supporting evaluation to owning it Approval and encouragement are not enough. Evaluation must inform decisions. 4. Make evaluation non-negotiable If evaluation is optional, it will always lose to urgency. 5. Align leadership before scaling measurement efforts Without leadership alignment, even the best evaluation systems will stall. 6. Use evaluation to drive decisions—not just report results Stop ineffective programs and double down on what improves performance. If you're serious about connecting learning to business results, this episode will challenge how you think about evaluation—and your role in making it stick. Listen now and subscribe to the Kirkpatrick Podcast for more insights on driving performance and impact. Kirkpatrick Collective If you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world. Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions. 👉 Join the Collective and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity. Learning Impact Maturity Assessment Think your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't. The Learning Impact Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results. 👉 Take the assessment and get clarity on your next step. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Pressure doesn't create failure. It reveals it. In this episode of The Kirkpatrick Podcast, we explore a leadership truth many organizations avoid: when performance breaks down under pressure, the root cause is almost never motivation or intent—it's preparation, practice, and the absence of meaningful evaluation. Our conversation with Ray Resendez, Senior VP of Government Solutions at ELB Learning and a former Army officer, forces a reckoning with how leaders are developed—both in high-stakes environments and in modern organizations. From combat decision-making to business leadership, the throughline is clear: when leaders haven't practiced the behaviors required under pressure, instincts fail and emotions take over. We talk candidly about why most leadership training doesn't translate into performance, how organizations confuse activity with readiness, and why data—not gut instinct—is the missing link in leadership decision-making. We also challenge the assumption that learning automatically equals capability, especially in an era where AI and tools can mask skill gaps rather than close them. This episode matters because organizations today are operating in constant pressure—market volatility, talent shortages, remote work, and rapid change. Leaders are expected to perform flawlessly, yet few are evaluated on the behaviors that actually drive results. Takeaways: Stop assuming leaders will "figure it out" under pressure—unpracticed behaviors collapse when stakes are high. Training without rehearsal and feedback does not create readiness. Emotions and ego are the biggest performance risks when decisions aren't grounded in data. Behavior (Level 3) is the most overlooked—and most powerful—leading indicator of results. Performance dashboards should guide conversations, not punish people. Evaluation is not about proving success; it's about preventing failure. If you're responsible for developing leaders, improving performance, or making decisions that impact others, this conversation reframes what readiness really means. 🎧 Listen to the full episode and subscribe to The Kirkpatrick Podcast for grounded, performance-focused leadership conversations. Pressure doesn't create failure. It reveals it. In this episode of The Kirkpatrick Podcast, we explore a leadership truth many organizations avoid: when performance breaks down under pressure, the root cause is almost never motivation or intent—it's preparation, practice, and the absence of meaningful evaluation. Our conversation with Ray Resendez, Senior VP of Government Solutions at ELB Learning and a former Army officer, forces a reckoning with how leaders are developed—both in high-stakes environments and in modern organizations. From combat decision-making to business leadership, the throughline is clear: when leaders haven't practiced the behaviors required under pressure, instincts fail and emotions take over. We talk candidly about why most leadership training doesn't translate into performance, how organizations confuse activity with readiness, and why data—not gut instinct—is the missing link in leadership decision-making. We also challenge the assumption that learning automatically equals capability, especially in an era where AI and tools can mask skill gaps rather than close them. This episode matters because organizations today are operating in constant pressure—market volatility, talent shortages, remote work, and rapid change. Leaders are expected to perform flawlessly, yet few are evaluated on the behaviors that actually drive results. Takeaways: Stop assuming leaders will "figure it out" under pressure—unpracticed behaviors collapse when stakes are high. Training without rehearsal and feedback does not create readiness. Emotions and ego are the biggest performance risks when decisions aren't grounded in data. Behavior (Level 3) is the most overlooked—and most powerful—leading indicator of results. Performance dashboards should guide conversations, not punish people. Evaluation is not about proving success; it's about preventing failure. If you're responsible for developing leaders, improving performance, or making decisions that impact others, this conversation reframes what readiness really means. 🎧 Listen to the full episode and subscribe to The Kirkpatrick Podcast for grounded, performance-focused leadership conversations. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #PerformanceImprovement #TrainingEvaluation #CultureOfEvaluation #KirkpatrickModel

Most organizations can tell you exactly how many people attended training, how many completed it, and how satisfied they felt afterward. What they can't tell you—at least not with confidence—is whether any of it actually changed performance. And that's not a data problem. It's a leadership problem. In this episode, I challenge one of the most deeply embedded habits in learning and development: measuring what's convenient instead of what's useful. Attendance, completions, and engagement metrics feel objective. They're easy to collect, easy to defend, and easy to explain in a single slide. Over time, they've become the default—not because they answer meaningful business questions, but because they make us feel safe. The danger isn't that we measure activity. It's that we stop there. Activity metrics tell us what happened, not whether it mattered. They can inform design decisions and identify friction in the learning experience—but they can't tell leaders whether people can perform under real conditions, whether work became easier or harder, or whether systems and policies are actually enabling success. When pressure increases—tight timelines, rising risk, slipping performance—leaders don't want reassurance. They want insight. They want to know where performance is breaking down and what to do next. And activity data simply isn't built to answer those questions. In this conversation, I unpack why our reliance on convenience metrics is eroding trust in evaluation—and how the Kirkpatrick Model was never meant to validate activity, but to guide better decisions. Takeaways: Stop reporting data that comforts you but confuses leaders Treat Level 1 and 2 data as design inputs—not proof of success Ask whether interventions made work easier or harder Use evaluation to test assumptions, not confirm habits Shift from volume of data to clarity of insight 🎧 Listen to the full episode to rethink how evidence should actually support performance—and why this shift matters now more than ever. Subscribe to the Kirkpatrick Podcast to continue the conversation. 👉 Join the Kirkpatrick Collective to connect with leaders shaping the future of evaluation. Explore the Kirkpatrick Collective at https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/ Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast.

Some leadership years don't look successful on LinkedIn. They don't come with celebratory posts, impressive metrics, or obvious wins. But those are often the years that matter most. In this reflective, end-of-season episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa Alzate shares why 2025 was intentionally a catalyst year for Kirkpatrick Partners — a year focused on preparation, alignment, and invisible leadership work that set the stage for what comes next. Rather than chasing visible success, 2025 was about slowing down, challenging legacy thinking, and reexamining what learning and evaluation must become in a rapidly changing business landscape. Vanessa candidly reflects on leadership uncertainty, imposter syndrome, and the pressure leaders feel to perform confidence even when clarity is still forming. This episode also explores why L&D can no longer operate in isolation. As organizations face continued disruption, learning must evolve beyond training programs and into a framework for enterprise decision-making, culture, and performance. The Kirkpatrick Model, long known as the standard for evaluating training effectiveness, is being reimagined as a broader operating lens — one that supports how organizations actually make decisions. In this episode, you'll learn: Why some leadership years are meant to prepare, not perform How "invisible work" creates long-term transformation The danger of measuring leadership success only by visible wins Why L&D strategy must move beyond training alone How catalyst years set the stage for disruption As Season 4 comes to a close, Vanessa also shares why Disrupt is the word for 2026 — not as chaos, but as intentional redesign. This conversation is for leaders who feel the tension between what looks successful and what actually builds sustainable impact. 🎧 Listen now, subscribe to the Kirkpatrick Podcast, and join us as we step into 2026 with clarity, courage, and conviction. Explore the Kirkpatrick Collective at https://www.kirkpatrickcollective.com/ Join the movement. Redefine learning. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast.

As the year winds down, most learning leaders are rushing to wrap up programs and close out projects — but Vanessa Alzate challenges you to do something different: pause and evaluate your department. In this episode of The Kirkpatrick Podcast, Vanessa explores how L&D teams can move beyond program-level evaluation and start auditing their entire department to show measurable impact on culture, retention, and organizational performance. Too often, we measure courses instead of influence. We report completions instead of stories. But the real value of learning isn't in attendance—it's in transformation. Vanessa shares how to connect the dots between L&D initiatives and business results, uncover the stories that prove your department's worth, and position learning as a strategic driver of performance and engagement. You'll Learn: Why auditing your L&D department matters more than evaluating individual programs. How to define "value" in business terms leaders care about. Ways to connect learning outcomes to retention and culture metrics. How to balance data with stories that demonstrate real impact. The year-end steps every L&D team should take to prove their worth. 🎯 Key Takeaway: Your leaders don't just want to know what you taught—they want to know what changed because of you. Listen now to learn how to make your department's impact visible, measurable, and undeniable. 👉 Subscribe to The Kirkpatrick Podcast and explore more on how to measure what matters in learning and performance. Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model Watch the Show on YouTube! Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast. #KirkpatrickPodcast #LearningImpact #CultureOfEvaluation #OrganizationalPerformance #KirkpatrickModel