The Wargame

As the world becomes more uncertain and the UK rethinks its approach to defence, we've launched the Sky News Defence Insider app to give subscribers exclusive access to insights and analysis, put your questions directly to the experts and get special access to live events.As listeners of The Wargame, we thought you might be interested.Click HERE to sign up.3 month free trial for new customers. Cancel before trial ends to avoid charges. After free trial, subscription auto-renews at standard charges (currently £14.99 per month / £134.99 per year). Cancel anytime effective from next billing date.

This episode explores a global battle of values between China and leading democracies over issues like Hong Kong, Taiwan and Xinjiang.It’s being fought with an array of covert weapons, from cyber attacks and information operations to economic coercion and even something called “lawfare”.Allegations of such behaviour are made and denied by both sides, which of course is to be expected - in the grey zone.Guests:Tom Tugendhat, Conservative MP, chair of the Foreign Affairs CommitteeMatthew Turpin, visiting fellow, Hoover InstitutionCharlie Parton, former British diplomat, senior fellow at the Royal United Services InstituteDr Shi Yinhong, Director of the Academic Committee of the School of International Studies and US Research Center of Renmin University in BeijingNathan Law, pro-democracy activist from Hong KongJulie Marionneau, research fellow, Policy ExchangeFreddy Lim, Taiwanese politician, lead singer of heavy-metal band ChthonicAlexander Downer, former Australian foreign ministerPuma Shen, assistant professor at National Taipei UniversityChinese embassy in London – via email statementCredits:Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes Edited and produced by Chris ScottProduction support from Michael GreenfieldThe head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

In their first joint interview, the director of the UK spy agency GCHQ and the top general in charge of cyber operations for the military talk about how the UK is using the power of cyber to push back against adversaries with the creation of a whole new National Cyber Force.Jeremy Fleming and General Sir Patrick Sanders also reveal new details about how the UK used offensive cyber in the fight against Islamic State, attacking the terrorist group’s ability to fly drones, use their mobile phones and spread online propaganda.We also hear from a woman who was once described as the UK’s best offensive cyber spy.Sally Walker has since left GCHQ and says she is choosing to speak out – now she’s once again a member of the public – to help generate a wider debate about the cyber grey zone.Interviews:Jeremy Fleming, director of GCHQGeneral Sir Patrick Sanders, commander of Strategic CommandSally Walker, cyber expertTobias Elwood, Conservative MP, chair of the defence select committee and former foreign officer and defence ministerCredits:Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes Edited and produced by Chris ScottProduction support from Michael GreenfieldThe head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

This episode looks at the grey zone weapon of hacking information – like private emails or documents – and then leaking it online to try to influence people or damage reputations.It is a tactic Russia’s military intelligence agency, the GRU, is accused of using to target the US presidential election in 2016 and the French election in 2017.Moscow has denied involvement.Sky News journalist Deborah Haynes also talks about how she was impacted in a suspected hack and leak against a British organisation that ran a programme, called the Integrity Initiative, aimed at countering suspected Russian disinformation.Interviews:Paul Chichester, director of operations at the National Cyber Security CentreChris Donnelly, founder of the Institute for Statecraft“Hawk”, a Lithuanian man, who volunteers as an “elf” to fight the online “trolls”Keir Giles, author of a handbook on Russian information warfare for NATO, senior consulting fellow at Chatham HouseThomas Rid, professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University, author of Active Measures – the secret history of disinformation and political warfareBen Nimmo, head of investigations at GraphikaCredits:Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes Edited and produced by Chris ScottAdditional voice provided by Matt SteeleThe head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

This episode seeks to explain what the grey zone is. It includes a warning from General Sir Nick Carter, the head of the UK’s armed forces, and Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, about the danger of ignoring attacks in this murky space, while Lieutenant General Graeme Lamb, a former director of UK special forces, warns: “We’re being boiled like a frog!”Sky News journalist Deborah Haynes then travels to Salisbury with the widow of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko to visit the site of one of the most high profile grey zone attacks – the poisoning of another ex-Russian agent, Sergei Skripal, and his daughter Yulia.Lord Mark Sedwill, a former national security adviser, talks about how he led the UK’s response to nerve agent poisoning and the fake news that followed.Finally, Eliot Higgins, founder of the investigative website Bellingcat, describes how he and his team revealed the true identities of the Russian military intelligence officers named by the UK as prime suspects in the attempted assassination. Russia denies involvement.Interviews:General Sir Nick Carter, chief of the defence staffBen Wallace, defence secretaryLord Mark Sedwill, former UK national security adviser, former cabinet secretaryLieutenant General (retired) Graeme Lamb, former director of UK special forcesMarina Litvinenko, widow of former Russian spy Alexander LitvinenkoEliot Higgins, founder of the investigative website BellingcatColonel Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, former commanding officer of the UK’s Joint, Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear RegimentCredits:Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes Edited and produced by Chris ScottProduction support from Sophia McBride and Victoria SeabrookAdditional voices provided by Cayetano DelgadoThe head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris