The Zeitcast with Jonathan Martin

What was supposed to be a conversation about Advent, turned into the kind of surprise that Advent portends—where the strange wonderful thing that you didn’t know that you needed, just kind of happens to you out of nowhere. A vulnerable conversation between friends still not entirely sure what they want to be when they grow up about aging, creativity, what we want to do with what we still have left in the tank, the second half of life….and yes, ultimately, Advent too. We hope you enjoy this minor Christmas miracle of a conversation with our friend Scott Erickson, an artist, author, and performance speaker who is creating a visual vocabulary for the spiritual journey.

Yes we did simply mash up the respective titles of BZ and Jonathan's Advent books, lol! Some things just go together, like Batman and Robin, peanut butter and jelly, Laurel and Hardy--as much as they both love Advent, how could it be too soon for another collab?! In a conversation that will absolutely get you in the Advent spirit, Brian and Jonathan explore Advent themes of hope, waiting, and the significance of the church calendar. They talk about how the harsh realities of the little town of Bethlehem shape the contours of the story, then and now, and why we need more Mary in our lives. They emphasize the non-prescriptive nature of Advent as a time to wait for God to act, not for us to "act right"/do more. They also talk about the tension between longing as Advent is a time to fully acknowledge the ways the world is not yet made right, and yet also how it is a time to make space for joy. Oh and course, they also talk about Nick Cave and Bob Dylan. Both Brian's book The Anticipated Christ and Jonathan's The Book of Waiting, are available now!

Rolling Stone said that "Brandan Robertson is spreading the good news of an inclusive, modern gospel.” Jonathan has known Brandan all the way since he was still a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago over ten years ago, so what a gift to have this full circle conversation! Brandan and Jonathan talk about why the language of sin still matters despite the misuse, what it means to build bridges in such a polarizing time, and the stubborn persistence of Advent hope against the backdrop of so much chaos in the world. Brandan shares vulnerably about his theological journey from fundamentalism, to being broken open by figures like Richard Rohr, to the recent experience of having a parishioner tell him that he didn't think it was okay for him to be a gay pastor. Brandan also talks about how he deals pastorally and theologically with some of the "clobber texts" that are used against LGBTQ+ inclusion. Brandan is the author of True Inclusion: Creating Communities of Radical Embrace, and known as the "TikTok Pastor" for his inclusive theological content, reaching over 280,000 followers online. He currently serves as the Pastor of Sunnyside Reformed Church in New York City.

"Prophetic" and "pastoral" rarely go together...but they do in Rev. CeCe Jones Davis, which is why THIS is the two weeks later, spiritual postmortem of the election you need in your life! CeCe and Jonathan discuss the challenges of navigating relationships in a divided world and the role of racism and LGBTQIA issues in political discourse. CeCe emphasizes the importance of understanding fear as a driving force in politics, and vulnerably shares why she both decided NOT to vote in this year's presidential election---and then, why she changed her mind. They discuss the challenges of staying engaged with current events while maintaining personal well-being, the significance of accountability in one's vocation, and the necessity of humor in the face of adversity. Cece shares her experiences and insights on how to balance the heaviness of social justice work with the need for personal joy and connection with family. The dialogue culminates in a reflection on maintaining a steadiness of soul amidst turbulence, advocating for a proactive yet patient approach to spiritual engagement.

What on earth does it mean to worship in a time like this!? What does it mean to worship when it feels like the world (and maybe even the church) is ambiguous to you, or even against you? Why is it that some of our neighbors feel a unique kind of grief this election season? How are current political realities connected to larger spiritual realities--and how do we differentiate between these principalities and powers, and our neighbors? Oh and hey, for those of you are involved in any kind of ministry--how would you begin to LEAD a church or community in worship, when there are deep idealogical and political division? After a truly stunning time of worship with Lan Davis Wilson, I was scarcely able to speak coherently yet--but very grateful for this beautiful conversation coming right out of the fire of that experience!

Rev. Benjamin Kremer joins us for a very special Zeitcast, in which he and Jonathan rank the five Bible verses that are the most misused right now, and what's wrong with the whole Trump/King David thing! Along the way, they also talk about the ongoing critique of the prophets over against the kings in the Hebrew Bible, how Jesus fits into that critique, and why it is that even the most liberating texts can be used in the most oppressive ways; as well as what's really going on with Romans 13, and why they are passionate about the essential message of the Book of Revelation (despite all the ways it has been used for harm). This is lively, fire-breathing conversation that will challenge your mind, and hopefully renew your soul!

We are committed to trying to bring the wisest guides we know to help you navigate this very particular moment--and Dr. Drew G.I. Hart is one of the clearest, most insightful prophetic voices we know! Such a tender, pastoral soul, who speaks with such clarity and fierce prophetic fire. In this conversation, Jonathan and Dr. Hart discuss the role of black church as a resource for engagement and resistance, the unique intersection of anabaptist and black church tradition that Dr. Hart occupies, and the challenge of disentangling faith from toxic political identities. They critique the notion of Christianity as a kind of centrism, over against the radical alternative that is Jesus/the way of Jesus--which must be lived out as public prophetic witness. They also discuss the ways that realistically a kind of prosperity theology is baked into the very bones of America. It's a clear critique, but also ultimately a hopeful, constructive, energizing conversation--without calling us to simply bury our collective heads in the sand.

This is another emergency election edition of the Zeitcast--because I cannot sit on this conversation for five seconds knowing how central immigration is to the choices Americans are making this week--and how central immigration will continue to be long after this week is over. Zeke Hernandez' book The Truth about Immigration is a REVELATION. I wish I could buy one for every single one of you, I wish it were required reading for every person in public life who is providing any commentary around immigration at all. We have all heard rhetoric about immigrants either as victims in need of our saving or of villains that we are in need of saving from. What if the truth is "that immigrants are net positives contributors to everything that makes a society successful?" The truth is that most of us have vague assumptions based on anecdotal stories we've heard or read about immigrants. But data/facts are not partisan, and this should not ultimately be a partisan issue. What if the story the facts actually tell are that we are actually SAFER with more immigration than with less? It is true that we have a deeply broken immigration system in the U.S., and spoiler alert--neither party on the whole is addressing the foundational issues that underwrite the problem. But how much closer could we get to the truth about such things, if we had the resources to sort fact from fiction? Perhaps the most buried truth of them all, is that even with real problems around illegal immigration, whether immigrants are legal or illegal they STILL contribute overwhelmingly positively to the U.S. economy, categorically. Professor Hernandez helps us reckon with the empirical data surrounding immigration, reframing immigration as a matter of self-interest, rather than around either fear or charity. This is a deeply important conversation for every citizen, but especially for people of faith. We wrangle honestly with the tough questions, en route to the truth that on some level we are always circling around--that all hope is local, and the way we can make a difference here ultimately will be made in real life in our real communities with real neighbors. But in order to love our neighbors, surely we must first stop believing lies about them, and bearing false witness against them? I humbly ask that you share this one broadly, and shout it from the housetops if you can.

During this time that I know is very high stakes and thus can be high anxiety for some of us, I specifically wanted to post a couple of resources that would be good for your SOUL--for those moments when you need a bit of shelter from the storm. The conversation I just had with Carlos Rodriguez is monumental, and I hope you will watch/listen to that one if you have not already...but he also preached SUCH a clarifying word for our friends at Simplicity Church (highly recommended if you are ever near Edmond, OK), that I know I needed to hear. Hence the title, "clarity, not certainty." What a mantra for the moment we are in! I especially love it because Carlos speaks not only with great passion, but great humility, taking us on a vulnerable journey with him, rather than calling us up to join him on some kind of mountaintop. He shares his own personal road to identity, family, and belonging, reflecting on his experiences of therapy, and sharing the transformative journey of founding The Happy Givers NGO. It is a brave and beautiful call for action, repentance, and a commitment to serving others, particularly in the context of systemic issues faced by marginalized communities. What a tremendous human and friend--I hope this sermon speaks to your soul as much as it did mine. Warmly, Jonathan

r. Andrew Whitehead (author of American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel & Threatens the Church and Taking America Back for God) is America's leading expert on Christian nationalism--so we couldn't think of a better guest to help us put the wildness of this election in a broader context! Andrew and Jonathan explore the complex intersections of Christian nationalism, race, and politics in the current American landscape, the threats posed by authoritarianism, and the potential for changing minds through empathy and storytelling. They also discuss how Christian nationalism predisposes individuals to support dictatorial leaders. This is an absolutely critical conversation to help keep us sane in the days ahead!

This is a time full of anxiety for many of us...maybe an ideal time to revisit prayer? In this vulnerable, funny, wide open conversation, Jonathan and Savannah talk about their current experience of prayer, the value of liturgy in prayer vs. spontaneity, the role of visuals in prayer, and how they are finding a sense of connection with the divine, now. Jonathan talks about the way ADHD affects the way he communicates to God (and everyone else), and reflects on Savannah's "non-angsty way" of thinking about prayer. They also talk about how perfectly natural it is to simultaneously pray while wondering whether or not any of it is true at all; the moments that ground them again in wonder, and the reason we need the physical embodied presence of real people in our lives, to make the presence of God tangible.

What you are about to see is a wild and sacred thing. Without hyperbole, I truly believe your life is about to change to watch/hear this. The conversation started really happening before we intended to really start recording, so you are dropped right into the thick of it because that is just how it actually happened, no intro. Also you aren't ready...for the HIGHLY UNLIKELY DUET, LOL! If this moves you to the core as it did me, I hope you will consider sharing this one...I believe in everything that happened/is happening here so hard, I want to go door-to-door with this. Multiple times Russ Taff prefaced something with, “I’ve never told this before…,” & this whole time had THAT energy. The words in my head driving away were “dripping with God.” “Don’t meet your heroes,” you say? How about recording with your hero for 2.5 hours in a revelatory, startling conversation, equal parts laughter & tears? Fierce & tender + brute force & frailty + Holy Ghost power has always been Russ Taff’s sound. He’s the greatest gospel singer of all-time (it’s not close), precisely because there is a whole story within the sound, terror & ecstatic joy, agony & freedom, death & resurrection—all in one electric current. Now, he tells the stories between the notes. We talked about how songs like “we will stand” and “praise the Lord” AND the cover from his forthcoming album of The National’s “Demons” (“when I walk into a room I do not light it up…I stay down with my demons”) all come from the same place; & about what it meant to grow up in the home of an alcoholic Pentecostal preacher, born into all that thunder. We talked about addiction & relapse. We talked about the day a pastor dying of cancer, eerily a spitting image of his father, held Russ’ head to his chest, stroked his hair, & spoke the blessing over a weathered son that his father couldn’t give, while he sobbed away the weight of years. I glimpsed the way he represents other fathers now, literally giving that same blessing now to beaten down children of the church who never imagined they’d get that tenderness, authenticity & affirmation—and was almost crushed by the holiness of it. You’ll think I’m just talking that talk until you watch/hear this. It’s devastating, annihilating, will take you apart & put you back together again. I’m not telling you this conversation will be a thing; it IS a thing. Bono-like rock & roll swagger & Father Rohr-like humility…I mean come on, it’s Russ freaking Taff. --Jonathan Martin