Unravelling

In the first episode of Unravelling’s three-part Pride Month series, Mary and Kurt examine the realities of so-called conversion "therapy," which many survivors, advocates, and researchers more accurately describe as conversion practices. These are not legitimate therapeutic interventions, but harmful efforts designed to change, suppress, or deny a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity.Mary speaks with Dr. Lucas Wilson, an interdisciplinary scholar of history, religion, gender, and sexuality at the University of Toronto Mississauga and editor of Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivor Stories of Conversion Therapy. Drawing on both his academic research and personal experience, Dr. Wilson explores the many forms conversion practices can take, from church-led programs and family interventions to efforts carried out by licensed professionals. He shares his own story of seeking conversion therapy while attending Liberty University, driven by evangelical teachings that framed queerness as something that needed to be corrected.He describes the lasting psychological and spiritual consequences of these experiences, including the shift from feeling guilt about specific actions to developing deep shame and self-hatred. He emphasizes that conversion practices remain an ongoing reality today, including at institutions he once attended, and connects contemporary anti-LGBTQ+ movements to longer histories of scapegoating and authoritarian ideology.Dr. Wilson calls on communities, allies, educators, and faith leaders to remain vocal in opposing these practices and supporting those who have been affected by them.Links:Resources: Born Perfect, The Trevor ProjectBuy the book: Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors’ Stories of Conversion TherapyMore about Dr. Lucas Wilson

In this very special episode of Unravellling, hosts Kurt and Mary step into the world of Table Top Role Playing Group Therapy (Collaborative Role-playing Integrative Therapy) using the world of Dungeons & Dragons, they explored in the previous episode. Guided by therapists and dungeon masters Vinny and E, and joined by producers Andrew and Hans, they create their own D&D characters, each tied to a personal interpersonal growth goal. I reflect on the tension between choosing traits that feel familiar versus ones that stretch them, and how imagination, storytelling, and role play can open up new possibilities for understanding and changing real‑life patterns. This is the first of a two-part adventure inviting listeners to witness, and maybe try for themselves, how tabletop role playing games can become a powerful tool for mental health and self-discovery.Also, congratulations to Unravelling as this is episode 50!!!LinksCreate your own D&D characterChange the Narrative Therapy - Vinny DehiliAdvance Psychotherapy Practice - E. MertenSubscribe to Vinny and E's Substack

Bipolar disorder is a term many people have heard, but it is often misunderstood. This episode of Unravelling takes a closer look at what bipolar disorder really is and how it shows up in people’s lives.Kurt speaks with Matt Dove, PMHNP-BC, FNP-C, a dual-certified nurse practitioner in family medicine and psychiatric mental health at the Brattleboro Retreat. Their conversation explores the full picture of bipolar disorder, including depression, mania, and hypomania, and how the illness can affect sleep, energy, thinking, relationships, and daily life. They also discuss why the condition is frequently misdiagnosed, how symptoms can overlap with other mental health concerns, and why it can take years for some people to receive the right diagnosis.Matt shares insights from his clinical work and talks about treatment options such as mood stabilizing medications, the importance of sleep, and the role of therapy and supportive relationships in recovery. He emphasizes that bipolar disorder is treatable. Many people living with it build stable and meaningful lives, and recovery and repair are possible even after difficult episodes

This episode of Unravelling explores how grief unfolds not only within us but also in community. Kurt interviews Nikki, creator of the Instagram project Dad’s Vinyl Stash, which she began after the death of her father, Bobby, a passionate and deeply private drummer with a vast record collection. By sharing his albums one by one, Nikki continues her relationship with him through the music he loved. She reflects on growing up with a father whose drumming and records formed the soundtrack of her life, and how songs from artists like Pat Benatar, Def Leppard, Robbie Robertson, Cigarettes After Sex, and Beach House now bring him instantly to mind. She also shares the lesson her father taught her about sitting back and simply listening, a practice that now shapes how she approaches grief.Nikki explains why she chose to share such a personal process publicly and how the community around Dad’s Vinyl Stash has become a place where others reflect on their own losses. Together, they explore how music, memory, and storytelling can help people stay connected to those they love while creating space for healing.Follow Dad's Vinyl Stash on Instagram

Recorded at the 2025 Brattleboro Literary Festival, Kurt White speaks with author, designer, and Creative Director of The Atlantic, Peter Mendelsund. Their conversation centers on Mendelsund’s book Exhibitionist: 1 Journal, 1 Depression, 100 Paintings, an unconventional work that pairs personal journal entries with paintings created during a period of severe depression. Through vivid, abstract imagery and unfiltered reflection, Mendelsund explores the lived experience of depression, including its loneliness, alienation, shame, and the difficulty of sharing suffering with loved ones. He speaks candidly about bipolar depression, suicidal ideation, the limits of creativity as a coping mechanism, and the life-saving roles of therapy, medication, and human connection. The conversation reflects on the slow work of getting through each day, the courage it takes to ask for help, and the possibility of greater openness and compassion on the other side of despair.Links: Peter Mendelsund's websitePaintings by Peter MendelsundExhibitionist and other books by Peter Mendelsund Brattleboro Literary FestivalIf you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. Dial or text 988 in the US and Canada to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.

This episode explores how the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. continues to shape conversations about mental health. Mary speaks with Kurt and special guest Dr. Nnamdi Pole, who for the past five years have collaborated on annual MLK Day presentations at the Brattleboro Retreat, a mental health hospital in Vermont. The live events draw directly from King’s speeches and writings to examine racism as a central mental health issue. From King’s 1967 APA keynote, where he challenged psychologists to stop pathologizing Black communities and instead confront the psychological damage of racism itself, to his framing of racism as a societal “poison,” the conversation traces how King’s ideas remain urgently relevant amid contemporary racial conflict and political polarization.They preview an upcoming MLK Day presentation focused on derogatory speech in inpatient settings, using King’s own words as a guide for naming harm, supporting staff, and shaping compassionate but clear institutional responses. Throughout, the discussion returns to King’s enduring challenge-- a commitment to love and hope, even, and especially, in difficult times.Links:MLK's speech at the APA's 1967 Convention in Washington, D.C.I Have a Dream Speech Where Do We Go From Here?

In this special roundtable episode, Unravelling turns its focus to the complex intersection of politics and mental health. Hosts Kurt and Mary are joined by clinicians Sarah Turbow and Dr. Geoff Kane, and researcher and professor Dr. Nnamdi Pole, for a conversation on how political identity, policy, and power shape our inner lives and the lives of the patients clinicians serve. The panel examines how social and political forces enter the therapy room, from the psychological toll of polarization and systemic inequities to the loss of agency many individuals experience in response to policy decisions.The panelists reflect on their own clinical experiences navigating political differences, examining how therapists can acknowledge political stressors without compromising the therapeutic alliance. They debate the ethics of neutrality versus self-disclosure and raise broader questions about the role of mental health professionals in engaging with public health, social responsibility, and efforts to address the systemic conditions that shape mental health.If you enjoy Unravelling, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to us and tell you friends about us!And listeners, take note! We always want to hear from you with reactions, topic ideas, stories or other suggestions. Send us an email, an old fashioned voice message, or a voice memo by using unravel@brattlebororetreat.org or by calling 802-258-POD3 (802-258-7633)!

In part three of our special series, Architecture of the Self, Kurt sits down with neuroscientist and pioneer in the world of psychedelic research, Dr. Gül Dölen, to explore the concept of “critical periods,” unique windows when the brain is most open to learning and change. Dr. Dölen explains how these periods shape everything from language and social behavior to habits and personality, drawing on decades of research that reveal why early experiences hold such lasting power.The conversation explores how and when these windows can reopen: naturally, after injury, or through Dr. Dölen’s discovery that psychedelics like MDMA, ketamine, psilocybin, and LSD can create a state of heightened plasticity in the adult brain. She also discusses why environment, support, and therapeutic integration are essential for turning that plasticity into meaningful growth and healing.Join us for a look at the future of medicine, mental health and the new possibilities for healing, growth, and lasting change at any stage of life.Links: dölenLAB: exploring critical periods, psychedelics, and the social brain

This episode is the first in a series of four episodes that we are calling "the architecture of the self" wherein we explore human development, genetics and epigenetics, memory and trauma, and, today, diagnosis and the delineation of "normal" and "abnormal" in the field of mental health. These episodes can all be listened to on their own, but each of them is exploring contributions from medicine, psychiatry, and psychology to shed light on the complicated question of how we become who we are. Kurt speaks with Smith College Professor Emeritus Randy O. Frost, whose decades of teaching, research, and publication experience -- as well as his participation in working groups which helped revise diagnostic criteria (for Hoarding Disorder, though that topic is not the focus today) -- make him the perfect person to help us unpack what "diagnosis" in mental health IS and ISN'T, from historical, research, and cultural perspectives. In a special "in-studio" sit down, they dive deep into this topic from the code of Hammurabi to DSM-5 and set the table for the series of episodes to come!Bio:Dr. Randy O. Frost is the Harold and Elsa Siipola Israel Emeritus Professor of Psychology at Smith College. He is an internationally recognized expert on obsessive-compulsive disorder and hoarding disorder and has published more than 200 scientific articles, books, and book chapters on these topics. Dr. Frost has served on the Scientific Advisory Board of the International OCD Foundation (IOCDF), and has been co-editor of the Hoarding Center on the IOCDF website. He has co-authored several books on hoarding including Buried in Treasures: Help for Compulsive Acquiring, Saving, and Hoarding. Buried in Treasures received a Self-Help Book of Merit Award from the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapy in 2010. This book is the backbone of the Buried in Treasures Workshops that have been found to produce significant improvements in hoarding behaviors and are now running in many locations around the world. He has also published the Compulsive Hoarding and Acquiring Therapist Guide and client Workbook. All three of these books are in their second editions. His book, Stuff: Compulsive hoarding and the meaning of things, was a finalist for the 2010 Books for a Better Life Award. Stuff was also a New York Times Bestseller and named a Must-Read Book for 2011 by Massachusetts Book Awards. Stuff has been translated into 4 languages. His newest book, Hoarding Disorder: Comprehensive Clinical Guide, was published in June of 2022. His work has been funded by the IOCDF and the National Institute of Mental Health. He was awarded a Lifetime Achievement Award for excellence in innovation, treatment, and research in the field of hoarding and cluttering by the Mental Health Association of San Francisco. He has also received a Career Achievement Award from the International OCD Foundation for his work on hoarding and a Distinguished Contribution Award from the New England Psychological Association. He has given hundreds of talks and workshops on hoarding. His research has been featured on numerous radio and TV news shows including Dateline, CBS Morning News, Today Show, Good Morning America, 20/20 Downtown, BBC News, Fresh Air, The Infinite Mind, and the Canadian Broadcasting Company’s The Nature of Things.

In this episode, Kurt sits down with guest Dr. Stephanie Jarvi Steele, a clinician and researcher who has extensive experience and knowledge about "non-suidical self-injury". In this detailed and thought provoking interview, she helps unravel common misperceptions about NSSI, including it's differentiation from suicidal behavior, and its complicated relationship to suicidal thinking. We discuss myths about the topic - like that there is a contagion effect to discussing it or sharing information about it - as well as the varying groupings of motivation for those who engage in this behavior. Resources:Cornell resources are excellent through the Self-Injury and Recovery Resources programNAMICrisis line info (if someone is struggling with urges/thoughts/etc)Dr. Steele referred at an article of hers about contagion we discussed, and generously wanted to let folks can also email her directly at ssteele@smith.edu for the full paper.Dr. Steele's faculty page at Smith CollegeDr. Steele Bio:Dr. Stephanie Jarvi Steele is an Assistant Professor in the Psychology Department at Smith College. Dr. Steele directs the Behavioral Assessment of Self-Injury Lab (BASIL), which aims to further elucidate risk factors for self-injurious thoughts and behaviors. She regularly teaches undergraduate classes on Abnormal Psychology, Personality Disorders, and a seminar on high-risk behaviors in psychological disorders.Dr. Steele is a licensed clinical psychologist in Massachusetts; she earned her Ph.D. in clinical psychology at Suffolk University in Boston and completed her predoctoral clinical internship at the Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University, followed by a postdoctoral fellowship at Boston University. Dr. Steele has published extensively on the topic of non-suicidal self-injury, or "NSSI", for more than a decade, and is currently working on projects related to NSSI and self-disugst, and understanding NSSI among parents.

In this week’s episode of Unravelling, we have a bit of a special episode: a roundtable discussion with our hosts Mary and Kurt, joined by our producers Hans and Andrew, and our guest, Professor Sean Duffy. Sean is a psychologist and Associate Professor of Psychology at Rutgers-Camden, and together, we share a bit of a metaphorical meal of a discussion about something that unites us all: food. We caught up with Prof. Duffy in Paris on Bastille Day, and he was fresh back from the Louvre researching food:s depiction in art. Together we explore questions such as: How food can bring us closer to family, culture, identity, our history? Can we know ourselves through what we eat? Can it help us keep the past alive in us, and give us a felt sense of our personal and cultural identities? Can we know each other better through the sharing of a meal? Join us in this feast of a discussion, as we explore all of this and more.Website for more about Prof. Duffy: https://duffy.camden.rutgers.edu/Resources:High on the Hog

In today’s episode of Unravelling, host Kurt White sits down with Alette Smeulers, Professor of Criminal Law, Criminology, and International Crimes at the University of Groningen in The Netherlands. Professor Smeulers has spent decades trying to answer the question: What is it that makes people perpetrators of mass atrocities, and why do people follow such leaders? Together, they unravel the specifics of the Milgram Experiment, the mental health implications thereof, and what we can learn about ourselves from that field of work and research.Alette is the author of the book “Perpetrators of Mass Atrocities: Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?” (Routledge, 2024), as well as the co-host of a podcast by the same title. She believes that if we understand the true nature and causes of violence and mass atrocities, and understand who the perpetrators are, and why they commit such crimes, we may be in a much better position to prevent such horrific things from happening.First They CamePastor Martin NiemöllerFirst they came for the CommunistsAnd I did not speak outBecause I was not a CommunistThen they came for the SocialistsAnd I did not speak outBecause I was not a SocialistThen they came for the trade unionistsAnd I did not speak outBecause I was not a trade unionistThen they came for the JewsAnd I did not speak outBecause I was not a JewThen they came for meAnd there was no one leftTo speak out for meWebsite: https://alettesmeulers.org/en/home/Book:https://www.routledge.com/Perpetrators-of-Mass-Atrocities-Terribly-and-Terrifyingly-Normal/Smeulers/p/book/9781032568027?srsltid=AfmBOorPR1Ke5X_-mx2P8s8rOqQM19OAGa1xqF8phur7TR3W-bRRlCbWPodcast: https://www.rug.nl/rechten/actueel/in-de-media/podcasts/terribly-and-terrifyingly-normal/?lang=enhttps://open.spotify.com/show/2Bt5Wg5nbekeSo8UBDI5MYhttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/terribly-and-terrifyingly-normal/id1708596464

In the third installment of Unravelling's 2025 Pride series, Mary speaks with Dr. Marley Balasco, an inpatient psychology specialist at the Brattleboro Retreat, about how to support young people as they explore and affirm their gender identities.Dr. Balasco breaks down the difference between gender and sexuality, and offers insight into how children and adolescents come to understand who they are. She highlights the vital role that family support plays in mental health outcomes, and explains why curiosity, validation, and open-mindedness are essential when working with gender-diverse youth.Together, they explore how gender development is a natural and expected part of growing up, and how cultural, societal, and political forces can either uplift or deeply harm young people in the process. Whether you're a parent, provider, educator, or ally, this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and concrete ways to support the well-being of trans and gender-expansive youth.Links -The Trevor Project - The Trevor Project is the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention nonprofit organization for LGBTQ+ young people, providing information and support to LGBTQ+ young people 24/7, all year round. Gender Spectrum - Gender Spectrum's mission is to create a gender-inclusive world for all children and youth. To accomplish this, we help families, organizations, and institutions increase their understanding of gender and consider the implications that evolving views have for each of us.