When Will They Learn?

This episode’s theme is “neuroscience!” Actually, it’s not, but it comes up a few times. Greg and Caiti kick things off by unpacking a recent article discussing potential limitations of cognitive load theory. They talk about where these sit within the current cognitive load theory research.The conversation then takes an unexpected turn into information theory. What is information? Can meaning actually be transmitted? And what is the meaning of meaning? Expect a detour into entropy, whether it might have a role to play in cognitive load theory, and an unexpected (brief) defence of PowerPoint.Finally, Greg and Caiti dive into the much-discussed attainment grouping report from the Education Endowment Foundation and University College London on mathematics grouping. What do the findings genuinely tell us? What are the limitations? And, most importantly, what should teachers and school leaders actually do when thinking about how to group students?Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?Get in touchGreg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Beyond Cognitive Load Theory - by Dr Peter Ellerton, PhD* The Conversation Article [comment section]: Teaching how to think is just as important as teaching anything else* Beyond Cognitive Load Theory: Why Learning Needs More than Memory Management - Published Paper* The Transmission Trap: What information theory tells us about teaching - Christian Moore Anderson* OSF | Cognitive load theory and informational entropy - Greg Ashman Unpublished paper* Student Grouping Study | EEF and UCL* Caiti’s Substack summary of the EEF and UCL Report - attainment grouping & the eef/ucl report: choose your casualtyAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In a funny episode complete with robotic pigeons and disturbing AI-generated images (see below), Greg and Caiti look at some of the more popular conversations in the education world right now. Starting off with a discussion around gamification and broader technology use in the classroom, they consider the role of schools and the impacts of trying to appeal to student interests in a contrived way in the classroom. They then switch to a research theme for the remainder of the episode, starting off with a discussion about Professor John Hattie’s research, in light of recent allegations about plagiarism in his work. The conversation centres on the research methodology used and flaws within this. Finally, they draw on a presentation that contrasts the ‘Science of Learning’ with the ‘sciences of learning’: what they mean for ‘fun’ in the classroom, teacher professional judgment and education research in general.Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?Get in touchGreg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* You Can’t Game Your Way to a Real Education - The New York Times* Professor John Hattie from the University of Melbourne School of Education probed over plagiarism | Herald Sun* ‘Defending John Hattie’ - Greg’s Substack, Filling the Pail* Balancing structured instruction with creative freedom: Navigating the path to effective and joyful learning - University of Melbourne Presentation* ‘most likely. most students. most of time’ - Caiti’s Substack, The Disruptive Educator* Greg’s Tweet about the ‘bodymind’:Acknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti dive into some of the biggest conversations currently shaping education, unpacking what the research says, and what it’s not saying. In this episode, they explore the role of knowledge in reading comprehension, positioning a knowledge-rich curricula as central to teaching comprehension. The conversation then turns to “transliteracies” and the teaching of poetry, examining what sits beneath these ideas and what they might mean for classroom practice.Finally, they talk about research in mathematics education, discussing whether or not the methodology used in some of the most influential research in this space actually proves what it set out to - or anything at all. Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?Get in touchGreg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* An important and solemn communiqué from me - by Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* OTRs: Pure gold for engagement - Bronwyn Ryrie Jones* Five arguments against explicit teaching - Filling The Pail* Putting strong evidence to good use - EduResearch Matters (AARE)* Escape Oppression Now: Disrupt the Dominance of Evidence-Based Practice - EduResearch MattersAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti finally tackle the topic of AI in education, responding to a blog post published by BERA about using AI to mark student homework. They explore how teachers might use AI in practice and what its growing role could mean for our education system.Next, they discuss an episode of the podcast Let's Talk Teaching, unpacking what differentiation actually means, how it is often interpreted in schools, and the potential risks when it’s implemented poorly.Finally, they turn to the Australian context, discussing the news that universities have offered places in initial teacher education programs to around 500 students with an ATAR below 50, and what this might mean for the profession.Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?Get in touchGreg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Reimagining homework with artificial intelligence in secondary education: Managing teachers’ workload and protecting students’ leisure | BERA* Tailored teaching: Practical strategies to support every learner - Monash Education* Hundreds of school-leavers offered teaching spots with ATARs of less than 50Acknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti respond to recent discussions on The Balance podcast between Dr Catlin Tucker and Dr Pete Liljedahl about ‘Building Thinking Classrooms’. They examine how key claims do or don’t align with evidence from cognitive science. They then unpack a recent opinion piece by John Cole for the Australian Association for Research in Education’s blog, asking who gets to decide what counts as ‘best practice’ in teaching.Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?Get in touchGreg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Building Thinking Classrooms: The Balance Podcast by Dr Catlin Tucker with Dr Peter Liljedahl* ‘Setting the Standards: Who chooses ‘best practice’’ by John ColeAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com