For Love & Money

EPISODE OVERVIEW What if the biggest obstacle to creating change in your organisation isn't a lack of resources, effort, or intention — but the questions you're asking? That's the central challenge Hildy Gottlieb has spent 30 years answering, and it cuts right to the heart of what purpose-driven leadership actually requires. Hildy Gottlieb is a futurist, social scientist, and the developer of Catalytic Thinking — a question-based framework for systems change published in the Stanford Social Innovation Review and used by nonprofit leaders, social entrepreneurs, and purpose-driven businesses around the world. Over three decades working with community organisations, Hildy and her partner Dimitri Petropolis made a confronting discovery: the tools most organisations rely on to pursue change — strategic planning, resource development, board governance — were never designed to create the world we want. They were designed to maintain the world we have. In this conversation, Hildy unpacks the deceptively simple maths behind why most change efforts stall, walks us through the seven questions of Catalytic Thinking, and makes a compelling case for why the most important thing a purpose-driven leader can do right now — in business, nonprofit, or social enterprise — is dream bigger, not smaller. Listeners can expect actionable ideas for leaders in nonprofit, social enterprise and business who want to move from reactive fixes to ambitious, inclusive change — starting with one simple shift: change the questions, change the world. WHO THIS EPISODE IS FOR This episode is for you if you're a CEO, nonprofit leader, social entrepreneur, sustainability or ESG leader, or anyone responsible for organisational strategy and culture who: Wants to move beyond incremental, reactive change toward genuine systems change Is grappling with how to embed purpose more deeply into how your organisation plans and operates Leads teams and wants to unlock more creativity, inclusion, and collective ownership Is navigating a difficult external environment and looking for a framework that builds resilience and hope alongside action Is curious about what inclusive leadership and stakeholder-centred strategy actually looks like in practice ABOUT HILDY GOTTLIEB Hildy Gottlieb is the co-founder of Creating the Future and the developer of Catalytic Thinking — a framework for social change rooted in neuroscience, mathematics, and economics. Her work has been published in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, and her SSIR article on Movements vs. Organizations was selected to open their ebook Essentials of Social Innovation: Transforming Leadership — and directly inspired the design of the Community Centric Fundraising movement. Hildy is a TEDx speaker and the author of multiple books used as texts in undergraduate and graduate programs around the world. With her partner Dimitri Petropolis, she co-founded the world's first Diaper Bank, sparking a movement across North America and earning a Points of Light Citation from President Bill Clinton. She helped develop the Masters degree program in Community Leadership at Duquesne University (pron. Dew-cáyne), where she and Dimitri taught as professors, and has lectured at institutions including UC Berkeley and the University of Waikato in New Zealand. Her forthcoming book, How to Create the Future, distils 30 years of research and demonstration projects on what actually creates lasting change. WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE Why love isn't just welcome in business — it's essential to good decision-making, and why its absence leads to what Hildy calls 'really dumb decisions' How Hildy and Dimitri moved from commercial real estate to founding a social change movement — and what values drove that journey The five-year wake-up call: why doing nonprofit strategic planning 'the right way' produced good reputations but no community change The maths that changes everything: why less bad does not equal good, and what the number

Episode Overview What does it mean to redefine wealth — not as accumulation, but as enoughness?And what happens when you build a life and a career around community, purpose and shared humanity instead of individual achievement? In this profound and compelling conversation, I speak with Sandy Blackburn, one of Australia’s leading voices in social impact and the founder of Social Outcomes and Impact Culture Australia. Sandy spent 15 years living and working in South Africa during the final years of apartheid and the emergence of democracy — years that shaped her identity, worldview and lifelong commitment to social change. She shares the lessons those years taught her about community, belonging, and Ubuntu — the African philosophy meaning “I am because we are.” We explore what Western cultures have lost in their worship of individualism, how business can rediscover its collective heartbeat, and why “enough” might be the most radical idea in the purpose economy. Sandy also takes us inside her new venture, Impact Culture Australia, and the next frontier for purpose-driven organisations: embedding impact deeply into their culture, systems and ways of working. This is a rich, layered, deeply human conversation about what really matters in business — and in life. In This Episode We Explore Sandy’s perspective on whether there is a role for love in business Her extraordinary journey living in South Africa during the last violent years of apartheid How Ubuntu reshaped her understanding of identity and connection What Western cultures lose when individualism is elevated above community The deep lessons she learned about privilege, belonging and bearing witness How South Africa taught her the real meaning of “enough” Why so many corporate leaders privately feel unfulfilled The “golden hour” of township life — and what it reveals about authenticity and humanity The origins of Social Outcomes and the creation of Impact Culture Australia Why impact measurement is no longer enough — and why culture is the next frontier How flexible, trust-based business models can create richer lives What Sandy hopes the sector will look like in the next three years About Sandy Blackburn Sandy Blackburn has four decades of experience working in social change, organisational development, capacity building and culture change in Australia and internationally, including extensive work in community and organisational development in pre- and post-apartheid South Africa. Her autobiographical book, Holding Up the Sky: An African Life, captures her 15 years living through one of the most tumultuous and transformative periods in South Africa’s history — a journey that profoundly shaped her identity, worldview and commitment to social justice. She is one of Australia’s leading thought leaders in social impact and is the founder of Social Outcomes, and more recently Impact Culture Australia. Before founding these organisations, Sandy was Head of Social Innovation at Westpac, where she created the Organisational Mentoring Program — mobilising hundreds of employees to support for-purpose organisations to build their capacity, a systemic need that is notoriously underfunded. Through this work, and through Social Outcomes, Sandy has worked closely with many hundreds of for-purpose organisations, developing a deep understanding of the sector’s strengths and development needs. Sandy is also co-founder of Impact Investing Australia, sits on the NAB Foundation’s Investment Committee, and serves on multiple for-purpose boards. She is a sought-after speaker, bestselling author, and holds a Masters Degree in Adult Education. Connect With Sandy Website: Social OutcomesImpact Culture AustraliaLinkedIn: Sandy Blackburn

In this insightful and forward-looking conversation, Shirley Chowdhary joins Carolyn Butler-Madden to explore what modern governance and leadership look like in an age defined by rapid change, technology and social transformation. A seasoned board director, Chair and former CEO, Shirley shares her belief that good governance underpins everything— from commercial outcomes and productivity to culture and trust. She discusses the urgent need for boards to embrace diverse thinking, lived experience and inclusive leadership, and explains why the next frontier of effective governance lies in AI as a collaborative thinking partner. Shirley also reflects on her own non-linear career across law, finance, Indigenous education and board leadership — including how her lived experience across cultures has shaped her resilience, empathy and approach to leadership.From advancing women in political leadership to preparing boards for an AI-driven future, this is a conversation about courage, foresight, and the human intelligence behind great governance. 💡 Key Themes The changing face of governance: why inclusion and diversity of thought matter more than ever AI as a governance tool — the opportunities and risks of boards using AI for decision-making The importance of feedback, trust and positive intent in effective board culture Non-linear careers and the freedom to prioritise family, learning and different goals at different stages of life Women for Election and the need for greater representation in political and organisational leadership The balance between commercial imperatives and social impact — why the best boards ask, “Should we?”, not just “Can we?” 👤About Shirley Chowdhary Shirley has extensive leadership experience in corporate law and governance, alongside cultural and strategic change. She is an outspoken advocate for women’s leadership and diverse voices, and is a seasoned Non-Executive Director, Chair, and former CEO with substantial international experience. Shirley has a proven record of partnering with diverse communities and driving values alignment at board and organisational levels. Throughout her work, Shirley maintains a priority on commercial returns and stewardship, whilst balancing diverse stakeholder interests and prioritising customer confidence. She has a current research focus on how boards can adopt AI as a collaborative thinking partner to enhance judgment, improve productivity in the boardroom, and strengthen governance decision-making. Her work responds to growing expectations on directors to lead with foresight and confidence, supporting responsible innovation while maintaining trust, transparency and alignment with emerging regulatory frameworks. Shirley is currently the Chair of Women for Election and an external member of the University of Sydney Senate People & Culture Committee. She sits on the Advisory Boards of Propel Group, an organisation empowering boards and C-Suites to ‘get social media right’ in moments that matter, and Mentor Walks, providing mentoring to over 12,000 women across Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Canada and Dubai. Her previous board roles include being Deputy Chair of YMCA NSW, Chair of the Australian Institute of Architects, and non-executive director on the boards of the Australian Associated Press and Northrop Engineers. Career highlights include being in private practice at Cleary Gottlieb in New York and Tokyo, Regional Counsel for JP Morgan Investment Management, and CEO of the GO Foundation, an NFP founded by Adam Goodes and Michael O’Loughlin of Sydney Swans fame. She lived and worked for a decade in Japan, and has worked internationally across Asia, North America, Europe and Africa in the listed, private and for-purpose sectors. She has also hosted two series of the Women’s Agenda Leadership Lessons podcast and written a biography for a WW2 POW. In 2024, she was awarded an Honorary Doctorate of Letters from the University of Sydney for her contribut

In this episode of For Love & Money, I speak with Jeremy Meltzer, Founder and CEO of i=Change, Australia’s fastest growing impact marketing platform. Jeremy has built partnerships with over 400 brands – from Camilla and Clarins to law firms and hospitality businesses – raising more than $12 million for NGOs and impacting the lives of over 2 million people globally. At the heart of i=Change is Jeremy’s passion for empowering women and girls, tackling gender-based violence, and creating a more sustainable world. 👤 About Jeremy Meltzer Jeremy Meltzer is Founder & CEO of i=Change, Australia's fastest-growing impact marketing platform that bridges the worlds of businesses and impact. In partnership with over 400 brands like Camilla, Ginger & Smart, National Tiles, Clarins - and now law firms and hospitality business, i=Change has raised over $12 million and counting for NGOs, $1 at a time, impacting the lives of over 2 million people in Australia and globally. With a focus on empowering women & girls and mitigating climate change - and delivering value back to businesses for their giving, i=Change is leading a purpose-driven business movement. i=Change has won 4 x Australia Post ORIAs (2023, 2022, 2019), NORA’s ‘Best All-Round Sustainability Partner’ (2023), is a certified B-Corp and was voted one of 50 most innovative start-ups in Australia. i=Change uniquely leverages business to create impact, by engaging businesses pragmatically, creating system change from within - and ultimately a new business model. Jeremy believes it is critical we engage business to fund NGOs in Australia and mostly, across the developing world, where funding can provide up to 5X social return on investment - and that we see NGOs as equal partners in security and development. This helps ensure our nearest neighbours can have their basic needs met - and the opportunity to thrive - at a time when foreign aid has been so drastically cut, it is now more essential than ever. 🔍 In This Episode We Explore: The deeply personal experiences in Cuba that opened Jeremy's eyes to the prevalence of gender-based violence – and why he couldn’t walk past it. His journey from olive oil entrepreneur to impact tech founder with no tech background. Why businesses must move beyond profit-first thinking, and what authentic partnerships between brands and NGOs can achieve. How purpose and profit are not opposites, but mutually reinforcing drivers of innovation, loyalty, and growth. The vision for i=Change by 2030 – raising over $30 million annually to create systemic, measurable impact. This is a conversation about what business can and must become when it integrates love, compassion, and human values into its DNA.

Episode Summary What does it take to turn outrage and opposition into legitimacy and consent? In this episode, we explore that question with one of the world’s leading authorities on social licence and legitimacy. My guest, Katherine Teh, is the founder of a pioneering social purpose company that’s rewriting the rules of mining—transforming the industry’s most polarised conflicts into powerful opportunities for inclusive, ethical development. You’ll hear how this consent-based model is unlocking stranded assets, accelerating approvals, and delivering long-term value for people, planet, and business. We explore: The power of empathy in business—even in high-stakes, high-conflict sectors. Why legitimacy isn’t a compliance issue, but a foundation for resilience and profit. The real meaning of social licence—and why it’s vital to the net zero transition. How the “DAD” model (Decide, Announce, Defend) is being replaced with “DAVE” (Declare dilemmas, Acknowledge issues, unify Vision, Evaluate). Why partnering with Indigenous communities is essential to ethical growth. This is a conversation about reimagining what development can look like when business begins with humanity, listens deeply, and leads with purpose. Guest Bio Katherine Teh is a strategist, reformer, and changemaker whose work has helped reshape some of the world’s most complex and contested industries—from mining and renewables to public policy, agriculture, and pharmaceuticals. Katherine Teh is one of the world’s foremost authorities on social licence and legitimacy. For over three decades, she has worked at the intersection of sustainability, governance, and public trust—bringing sharp clarity where others see only risk. Her ability to align fractured interests and rebuild trust has made her a trusted adviser on more than $200 billion in major projects around the globe. But Katherine’s story begins far from the boardroom. Driven by an early ambition to become a war correspondent, she rose quickly through the ranks of journalism—becoming the youngest female A-graded journalist in Australian history. At 29, she led one of the country’s most influential gender justice campaigns, mobilising over one million women to reframe gendered violence as a workplace safety issue—more than two decades before the #MeToo movement swept the world. Since then, she has led national and international public dialogue processes on polarising issues, designed innovative products and business models to solve systemic problems, and helped industries navigate outrage, restore legitimacy, and deliver long-term value. In 2002, she founded the world’s first social licence agency—developing a methodology that combines strategic foresight, stakeholder alignment, and social impact design to turn opposition into durable, earned support. Today, as Executive Chair of Spektrum, Katherine leads a new kind of critical minerals company—one that does development differently. By partnering with Indigenous communities and applying consent-based models, she and her team are unlocking stranded assets, accelerating approvals, and creating nature-positive regional futures. Katherine is on a mission to transform not just who development is done with—but how it’s done, and what it leaves behind. She builds systems that restore legitimacy, resolve conflict, and demonstrate that ethical, inclusive development isn’t a trade-off—it’s the foundation for resilience and long-term success. She’s an entrepreneur. An activist. A visionary. And a woman who’s never waited for permission to lead. Resources & Links: Learn more about Spektrum: https://www.spektrumdevelopment.com/ Connect with Katherine on LinkedIn: Katherine Teh Book Mentioned: Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman More for You: Explore how purpose-led business can drive systemic change:👉 thecauseeffect.com.au Grab your copy of For Love & Money—and help protect rainforest with every sale:📗 Buy the book

Episode Summary: In this episode of the For Love and Money podcast, In this episode, Carolyn Butler-Madden speaks with Patricia Occelli, Director of Community and Customer Experience at Woollahra Council. Patricia shares the story of how doing the work to create a unifying purpose transformed the Council’s vision, culture, and strategic direction. What began as a challenge to create a meaningful customer experience strategy evolved into a whole-of-organisation transformation—fuelled by purpose and a deep commitment to community. Patricia reflects on the pivotal moments, the leadership challenges, and the lasting cultural shifts that followed. This is Part 1 of a two-part series on Woollahra Council’s purpose-led transformation. Part 2 features General Manager, Craig Swift McNair, sharing his perspective on the transformation process. What You’ll Learn in This Episode How a unifying purpose can drive whole-of-organisation transformation Why purpose is essential in local government and public service How to bridge silos and shift culture with a shared North Star The difference between customer service and customer experience What it takes to embed values that guide everyday behaviour How the council has seen results in both internal culture and community engagement Key Themes Discussed The transformational impact of a unifying purpose Bridging organisational silos with a shared North Star Driving cultural change in complex public environments The role of language, values, and tone of voice in public service Why brand archetypes matter for councils and community connection How purpose-aligned strategy drives both internal and external outcomes Stay tuned for Part 2, Episode 82, where Carolyn speaks with Craig Swift-McNair, Woollahra Council’s General Manager, to further explore the leadership behind this transformation. Guest Bio Patricia Occelli is the Director of Community and Customer Experience at Woollahra Council, leading customer experience, communications, community engagement, cultural and arts initiatives, and Woollahra Libraries. With over 35 years of leadership in the human services sector, Patricia has driven transformation across local and state government and the for-purpose sector. She is passionate about social justice and delivering high-quality services that make a real difference in people’s lives. Her expertise spans service integration, cultural reform, customer-centric design, and staff engagement. She has successfully led ICT transformations, governance frameworks, and operational efficiencies—all while fostering empowered employees and engaged communities. A strategic leader, Patricia is committed to shaping innovative, sustainable, and impactful services. Links and Resources Woollahra Council Vision, Mission & Values: Woollahra Council Website Connect with Patricia Occelli on Linkedin Carolyn Butler-Madden: LinkedIn | The Cause Effect Learn more about the For Love & Money Podcast

Episode Summary In this inspiring episode of the For Love & Money Podcast, Carolyn Butler-Madden speaks with David Ferreira, Head of Marketing at wholesale bakery Bob & Pete’s, about their transformative journey toward becoming a purpose-led business. What started with one passionate junior marketer asking the tough questions—“What are we doing for our community and our planet?”—has evolved into a deeply embedded purpose strategy that permeates every part of Bob & Pete’s operations. From waste reduction and food donations to employee engagement and redefining sustainability in the food industry, David shares the real, raw and practical story of how purpose—“Baking Things Better”—became the foundation for stronger culture, deeper customer relationships, and sustainable profit. This episode is a must-listen for business leaders, marketers, and purpose-driven professionals seeking to integrate meaningful impact with business performance. What You’ll Learn in This Episode ✔ How Bob & Pete’s uncovered and activated their business purpose: “Baking Things Better”✔ The surprising origins of their purpose strategy—and the impact of one junior employee’s bold questions✔ How purpose drives decision-making across safety, sustainability, and innovation✔ The creation of the Foodbank Donut and how it's helped provide nearly 60,000 meals to Australians in need✔ Practical insights on engaging employees and embedding values deeply into business culture✔ The importance of measuring what matters—from waste, power and water usage to employee engagement and customer alignment✔ How being purpose-led helped Bob & Pete’s achieve top-tier results in Gallup’s global employee engagement benchmarks Key Themes Discussed Purpose in Practice: How Bob & Pete’s purpose drives everyday operational decisions, from food safety to packaging and energy use People First: Embedding values across the workforce, from factory floor to leadership, and measuring impact through employee engagement The Power of One: The ripple effect of one young employee’s purpose-fuelled initiative that sparked systemic change Purpose-Driven Innovation: Turning food waste into new products and repurposing bakery waste to benefit the community and environment Strategic Partnerships: The evolution of a deep, meaningful partnership with Foodbank that goes beyond donations Courage and Conviction: Navigating internal pushback to stay true to a long-term purpose-led vision Impact Aspirations: David’s bold vision for reaching 100,000 donated meals through the Foodbank Donut initiative About Our Guest – David Ferreira David Ferreira is the Head of Marketing at Bob & Pete’s, a wholesale bakery supplying quality baked goods to cafés across Australia. With a rich background in FMCG marketing and operations, David brings a deeply human, practical and strategic approach to leading purpose within the business. Over the past seven years, he has championed Bob & Pete’s purpose journey—from guiding the articulation of their higher purpose “Baking Things Better,” to embedding it in their values, operations, and stakeholder relationships. David is a passionate advocate for businesses being a force for good, showing that purpose doesn’t just inspire—it delivers. Connect with David and Bob & Pete's Bob & Pete's website David Ferreira on Linkedin

Episode Summary: In this episode of For Love & Money, Carolyn Butler-Madden is joined by Chris Hudson, Founder & CEO of Company Road, to explore how his own personal purpose has driven his work in catalysing organisational change. Chris shares his journey from childhood to the Ad Agency world, through corporate marketing to entrepreneurship—driven by curiosity and a deep desire to challenge the status quo. They discuss how leaders can embed purpose into their work, create meaningful cultural transformation, and reimagine traditional business models through curiosity, storytelling, and innovation. This conversation unpacks the emotional and strategic aspects of change-making, exploring how work can become more than a means to an end and instead a space for experimentation, personal fulfilment, and systemic impact. What You’ll Learn in This Episode: Discover how Chris Hudson's personal purpose inspires him to drive business transformation, challenge leadership norms, and create innovative workplaces. How personal purpose can lead your work choices and inspire new business ventures. Why curiosity and questioning assumptions are essential for both innovation and leadership. The concept of 'intrapreneurship' and how employees can drive change within organisations. How designing customer experiences can be an experience itself. The parallels between performance in music, art, and leadership at work. How work environments can be stretched beyond conventional structures to foster engagement, creativity, and impact. The need to challenge traditional leadership archetypes and embrace humility in leadership. Why leaders must deeply understand their teams to create productive and fulfilling workplaces. Key Themes Discussed: Curiosity as a Leadership Skill: Chris reflects on how his innate curiosity has inspired his career path and his belief that curiosity is a critical tool for fostering change. Intrapreneurs as Rebels: Chris highlights how intrapreneurs are the 'rebels' of an organisation, pushing against the norm to drive meaningful change from within. Work as an Expansive Concept: The conversation explores how traditional work structures can be stretched and reimagined to create environments that promote innovation, fulfillment, and purpose. The Experience of Designing an Experience: Chris discusses how designing a customer experience can be an enriching experience for the people creating it, not just the end users. The Art of Leadership as Performance: Using music and art as an analogy, Chris draws parallels between great performances and the leadership required to create an engaging work culture. Challenging the Alpha Leadership Model: Chris calls for a shift away from the traditional dominant leadership style, advocating instead for consultative and humble leadership that fosters collaboration. Understanding People to Drive Productivity: Leaders need to invest time in truly understanding their teams to create a work environment that is both high-performing and human-centered. Featured Guest: Chris Hudson – Founder & CEO of Company Road, host of the Company Road Podcast, and an advocate for purpose-driven organizational change. Chris is an Intrapreneurship Coach and Founder of Company Road, a business transformation coaching and consultancy. He formed his business in response to seeing over-niching and specialisation as a significant barrier to change within corporates.During his career, he’s worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally. Chris is also a fellow podcast host. The Company Road Podcast explores what it takes for intrapreneurs to change companies and organisations and inspire personal growth for themselves. I’ve li