Ill Conceived

***TICKETS TO OUR JULY 2 SHOW IN CHICAGO ARE ON SALE! GET YOUR TICKETS NOW BY CLICKING HERE!!!!*** While natalism as a political project has its proponents, few heads of state have been willing to attempt to use the full force of the state to raise birth rates. However, one leader does stand out: Hungary's recently-ousted prime minister, Viktor Orbán. This week, June and Josh take a look at Orban's 16-year term as PM, the effects of his policies, and the ways that right-wing authoritarianism in Europe both mirrors and partners with similar movements in the United States. ***WANT MORE ILL CONCEIVED? Every other week, we release B-side supplements to the main episodes where we read your e-mail responses and discuss things further. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE WORLD FAMOUS MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: Viktor Orbán, the former prime minister of Hungary. AUDIO CLIPS: 1:08:34 – Marco Rubio speaking in Budapest in February 2026, declaring a "golden era" in relations between Hungary and the United States 1:14:09 – JD Vance calling Donald Trump at an April 2026 Viktor Orban election rally in Budapest SOURCES: How Viktor Orban hollowed out Hungary’s democracy How Viktor Orbán’s Hungary Eroded the Rule of Law and Free Markets Hungary’s opposition struggles to beat Viktor Orban’s stealth autocracy Home Building Allowance for Families Viktor Orban’s pro-natalist policies are not working In a state of necessity. How has Orban changed Hungary Hungary passes constitutional amendment to ban LGBTQ+ public events Hungary Ends Legal Recognition for Transgender and Intersex People Hungary’s ongoing demographic decline: an increase in birth rates is the only hope Authoritarian Populism in Disguise: Orbán’s Anti-Worker ‘Pro-Worker’ Regime Hungary races to build border fence as migrants keep coming Orbán rejects the European Union’s migration agreement and defends keeping asylum seekers out of EU territory Conference of U.S. conservatives opens in Orban’s Hungary Hungary offered €30,000 to couples having 3 kids—but its birth rate has still fallen to a record monthly low Vance, after rallying in Hungary for Orban, says he wasn’t surprised by the autocrat’s defeat Hungary: Prime Minister Viktor Orbán announced a seven-point family protection action plan Hungary’s New Leader Reveals Viktor Orbán Was Paying CPAC Here's why American conservatives are heading to Hungary for a big conference At CPAC, Hungary’s Orban decries LGBTQ+ rights, migration What one country's experiment says about attempts to boost birth rates Farewell To Hungary, And To Europe FOLLOW THE SHOW: Website: illconceivedpodcast.com Bluesky: ‪@illconceivedpodcast.com Tumblr: @illconceivedpod FOLLOW JOSH: Website: joshboerman.com Bluesky: @bosh.worstpossible.world Other podcast: The Worst of All Possible Worlds Stream: Traditional Scrench FOLLOW JUNE: Bluesky: @junlper.beer Other podcast: Kill The Computer Writing: June's Substack ILL CONCEIVED THEME SONG BY: Caleb (Linktree / Bluesky)

On January 30, the U.S. Department of Justice released over 3 million pages of new information about Jeffrey Epstein. Among these documents are thousands of new emails detailing Epstein's links to technologists and academics in the world of evolutionary biology, eugenics, and artificial intelligence. This week, Josh and June dig into the history of Epstein's connections with these people and discuss how his bizarre plans for his own offspring reflect the ideas and objectives of the tech natalist agenda. ***REMINDER: WE HAVE A PATREON! Every other week, we release B-side supplements to the main episodes where we read your e-mail responses and discuss things further. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and human trafficker, wearing a Harvard university sweatshirt. One month after being indicted on federal child sex trafficking charges in 2019, Epstein was found dead in his jail cell, leaving his likely thousands of victims without justice for the crimes he committed. SOURCES: “Harvard closes evolution center after finding connections to Jeffrey Epstein” by Edward Helmore (The Guardian, March 27, 2021) “Martin Nowak Sanctioned for Jeffrey Epstein Involvement” by Lydialyle Gibson (Harvard Magazine, March 25, 2021) “How Jeffrey Epstein Captivated Harvard” by Michael Massing (The Nation, July 24, 2023) Harvard report concerning Jeffrey Epstein’s connections to Harvard University “Professor Corina Tarnita on the Epstein Files: ‘I Wish I Had Never Known Him’” by Lia Opperman (Princeton Alumni Weekly, February 10, 2026) “Jeffrey Epstein Raked In $200 Million After Legal and Financial Crises” by Matthew Goldstein and Steve Eder (The New York Times, October 3, 2019) “Epstein files reveal deeper ties to scientists than previously known” by Dan Garisto (Nature, February 6, 2026) Epstein testimony before the Economic Development Commission, USVI “Jeffrey Epstein: International Moneyman of Mystery” by Landon Thomas Jr. (New York Magazine, October 28, 2002) “Jeffrey Epstein files shed light on ties to Santa Fe Institute scientists” by Clara Bates (Santa Fe New Mexican, February 11, 2026) “Jeffrey Epstein E-mails Reveal Depth of Ties to High-Profile Scientists” by Dan Vergano (Scientific American, November 13, 2025) “The DIY designer baby project funded with Bitcoin” by Antonio Regalado (MIT Technology Review, February 1, 2019) “Jeffrey Epstein Hoped to Seed Human Race With His DNA” by James B. Stewart, Matthew Goldstein and Jessica Silver-Greenberg (The New York Times, July 31, 2019) “Why did Jeffrey Epstein cultivate famous scientists?” by Dan Vergano (Scientific American, January 20, 2026) “Jeffrey Epstein had a 'Frankenstein'-like plan to analyze human DNA in the US Virgin Islands, and it reportedly pulled in $200 million” by Erin Brodwin (Business Insider, October 4, 2019) “Texas GOP politician Don Huffines plans Christian retreat at Zorro Ranch” by Clara Bates (Santa Fe New Mexican, February 16, 2026) “Former MIT scientist funded by Epstein made racist and sexist claims in private emails” by Kate Selig (Boston Globe, November 21, 2025) “New Mexico House unanimously enacts Epstein ‘truth commission’” by Danielle Prokop (Source NM, February 16, 2026) “How Jeffrey Epstein Bought His Way Into An Exclusive Intellectual Boys Club” by Peter Aldhous (Buzzfeed News, September 26, 2019) “How Epstein Infiltrated the Silicon Valley Network Behind Trump’s New Tech Order” by Nafeez Ahmed (Byline Times, December 3, 2025) “How Epstein Channelled Race Science and ‘Climate Culling’ Into Silicon Valley’s AI Elite” by Nafeez Ahmed (Byline Times, December 5, 2025) DIRECT LINKS TO EPSTEIN FILES QUOTED IN THIS EPISODE: Exchange between Epstein and Stephen Kosslyn where Epstein requests the name of a psychologist for a 15-year-old girl Epstein’s pitch t

An increasingly popular childbirth option for couples who cannot easily naturally conceive is to utilize a surrogate who gestates and births the pregnancy on behalf of the intended parents. And as of late, surrogacy is also being used by some especially wealthy people, particularly in the tech industry, as a way for them to avoid pregnancy altogether. This week, June and Josh look at the history of surrogacy, the moral disagreements among the religious right about the practice, and some of the ethical and legal complications that can result. ***REMINDER: WE HAVE A PATREON! Every other week, we release B-side supplements to the main episodes where we read your e-mail responses and discuss things further. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: Cindy Bi, a venture capitalist who attempted to give birth via surrogacy. When the pregnancy resulted in a stillbirth, Bi sued her surrogate and went to the press to disparage her further. AUDIO CLIPS: 1:15:47 – Epic Church promotional "About Us" video 1:22:49 – Ben Pilgreen, pastor of Epic Church, delivering a sermon called "What Maturity Demands" SOURCES: Man into Woman: An Authentic Record of a Change of Sex (1933) The History of Surrogacy: A Legal Timeline Baby M and the Question of Surrogate Motherhood Surrogacy Laws: The Best States For Compensated Surrogacy Severe Maternal and Neonatal Morbidity Among Gestational Carriers: A Cohort Study Americans want biological children but prefer adoption to surrogacy The Difference Between Love and Surrogacy Gestational Surrogacy Success Rates Common issues with surrogacy and IVF Surrogates 20 years on: long-term psychological health, contact with surrogacy families, and thoughts and feelings about post-birth contact The Baby Died. Whose Fault Is It? The billionaire obsession with surrogacy Christianity Was “Borderline Illegal” in Silicon Valley. Now It’s the New Religion The Chinese Billionaires Having Dozens of U.S.-Born Babies Via Surrogate Artificial womb robot promises cheap surrogacy but sparks deep ethical fears Silicon Valley wants to help me make a superbaby. Should I let it? Suggestion to use brain stem dead women's bodies for surrogate pregnancies sparks huge backlash Regulation of Genetic Tests Perspectives on Surrogate Motherhood FOLLOW THE SHOW: Website: illconceivedpodcast.com Bluesky: ‪@illconceivedpodcast.com Tumblr: @illconceivedpod FOLLOW JOSH: Website: joshboerman.com Bluesky: @bosh.worstpossible.world Other podcast: The Worst of All Possible Worlds Stream: Traditional Scrench FOLLOW JUNE: Bluesky: @junlper.beer Other podcast: Kill The Computer Writing: June's Substack ILL CONCEIVED THEME SONG BY: Caleb (Linktree / Bluesky)

Big data controls our lives like never before, and few people are more responsible than Peter Thiel, the billionaire cofounder of Palantir who made the bulk of his fortune by investing early in Facebook. But it turns out that beyond his obsession with data, Thiel is equally fixated on the end times, the rise of the Antichrist, and the recent trend of declining birth rates in the West. This week, Josh and June try to figure out why Peter Thiel has the worldview he does and how it bears out in his investments in natalist technology. CHECK OUT OUR RECENT PODCAST GUEST APPEARANCES! June on A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein talking with Ashley St. Clair about her history with, and regrets about, the right-wing propaganda machine Josh on Have You Seen This? talking about the movie Catch My Soul Josh on Reserved Recommendations talking about the Christian musical group Newsboys ***REMINDER: WE HAVE A PATREON! Every other week, we release B-side supplements to the main episodes where we read your e-mail responses and discuss things further. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: Peter Thiel in a 2016 address to the Republican National Convention. Born in Germany, Thiel spent the bulk of his childhood in an apartheid settlement in South West Africa. After graduating from Stanford and briefly attempting a career in law, Thiel co-founded PayPal, Palantir and numerous venture capital funds, also making a critical early investment in Facebook that now represents the core of his fortune. AUDIO CLIPS: 59:59 – Peter Thiel talks about the Antichrist in a Mercatus Center interview about political theology 1:24:12 – Peter Thiel talks about demographic collapse in an episode of The Joe Rogan Experience FURTHER READING: "The Real Stakes, and Real Story, of Peter Thiel’s Antichrist Obsession" by Laura Bullard (Wired, September 30, 2025) SOURCES: "No Death, No Taxes" by George Packer (The New Yorker, November 20, 2011) "How the roots of the ‘PayPal mafia’ extend to apartheid South Africa" by Chris McGreal (The Guardian, January 26, 2025) "South‐West Africa City Remains ‘More German Than Germany’" by Henry Kamm (The New York Times, October 30, 1976) "Quote of the Day: PayPal Co-Founder on Sullivan & Cromwell Stint" (Bloomberg, May 24, 2016) "Peter Thiel is totally gay, people" by Owen Thomas (Gawker, December 19, 2007) "What Does Palantir Actually Do?" by Caroline Haskins (Wired, August 11, 2025) "‘ELITE’: The Palantir App ICE Uses to Find Neighborhoods to Raid" by Joseph Cox (404 Media, January 15, 2026) "Jeffrey Epstein Invested With Peter Thiel, and His Estate Is Reaping Millions" by Matthew Goldstein (The New York Times, June 4, 2025) "Concern Grows Around Billionaire Peter Thiel’s Period-Tracking App" by Maggie Harrison Dupré (Futurism, September 11, 2022) "Surveillance Titan Peter Thiel Invests Millions in New Anti-Feminist Menstrual Tracking App" by Kylie Cheung (Jezebel, September 6, 2022) "Would You Wear a Period-Tracker Funded by Peter Thiel?" by Jessica Valenti & Kylie Cheung (Abortion Every Day, November 11, 2025) "With backing from Thiel, Recharge Capital launches $200M women’s health investment vehicle" by Catherine Shu (TechCrunch, June 15, 2023) "Rhea reaps $10M more led by Thiel" by Kate Park (TechCrunch, May 30, 2024) FOLLOW THE SHOW: Website: illconceivedpodcast.com Bluesky: ‪@illconceivedpodcast.com Tumblr: @illconceivedpod FOLLOW JOSH: Website: joshboerman.com Bluesky: @bosh.worstpossible.world Other podcast: The Worst of All Possible Worlds Stream: Traditional Scrench FOLLOW JUNE: Bluesky: @junlper.beer Other podcast: Kill The Computer Writing: June's Substack ILL CONCEIVED THEME SONG BY: Caleb (Linktree / Bluesky)

Moral panic about masturbation and pornography is nothing new, but in the wake of Donald Trump's re-election, numerous conservative groups—many of whom have deep ties to the natalist movement—have started to ring the alarm bell once again. This week, June and Josh take a look at the early history of fear of masturbation, then jump forward to the present day to see how the Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA) reflects many of these paranoias and introduces problems of its own. There's also a pretty significant detour into talking about the Zootopia abortion comic, if that's your thing. ***REMINDER: WE HAVE A PATREON NOW! We record bonus mailbag episodes and release them at the beginning of each week. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: John Harvey Kellogg, a physician who founded the Kellogg Company with his brother Will in Battle Creek, Michigan in 1906. Kellogg believed that bland food such as unsweetened corn flakes could aid in reducing the urge to masturbate. He also was a notable eugenicist and co-founded the Race Betterment Foundation in 1914 to discourage interracial relationships. AUDIO CLIPS: 16:07 – Tucker Carlson talks to Milo Yiannopolous about homosexuality FURTHER READING/LISTENING: The Worst of All Possible Worlds episode about Every Young Man's Battle (Apple Podcasts / Spotify / YouTube) The Zootopia abortion comic SOURCES: The Age-Gated Internet Is Sweeping the US. Activists Are Fighting Back The far right’s crusade against porn is a red herring – it’s actually a crusade against progress Re-Victimized: When Sexual Assault Gets Uploaded to Porn Platforms The Disturbing True Story of Kellogg’s Anti-Masturbation Cereal How Project 2025 Tries to Demonize LGBTQI+ People—and Why It’ll Fail Nick Kristof and the Holy War on Pornhub Delete history: Pornhub changed the world, but its empire faces a reckoning Internet Censorship Bills Wouldn’t Help Catch Sex Traffickers Project 2025 Tracker Age verification regulations in the United States of America Hack of Age Verification Company Shows Privacy Danger of Social Media Laws Press release about the passage of KOSA from the office of Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-MD) IHOPKC founder committed sexual abuse, misconduct against 17 women, investigation finds Melissa McCarthy Apologizes for Supporting Charity with Anti-LGBTQ Past FOLLOW THE SHOW: Website: illconceivedpodcast.com Bluesky: ‪@illconceivedpodcast.com Tumblr: @illconceivedpod FOLLOW JOSH: Website: joshboerman.com Bluesky: @bosh.worstpossible.world Other podcast: The Worst of All Possible Worlds Stream: Traditional Scrench FOLLOW JUNE: Bluesky: @junlper.beer Other podcast: Kill The Computer Writing: June's Substack ILL CONCEIVED THEME SONG BY: Caleb (Linktree / Bluesky)

Charles Murray & Richard Herrnstein's 1994 book The Bell Curve caused tremendous controversy on its publication by positing a link between intelligence and race. But this certainly wasn't the first time someone had made this argument, nor would it be the last. This week, Josh and June take a look at the foundation of the eugenics movement in North America, track its close relationship with the development of IQ testing, and discover some surprising links to German, Italian, and American fascism. ***REMINDER: WE HAVE A PATREON NOW! We record bonus mailbag episodes and release them at the beginning of each week. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve. Murray, a Harvard and MIT-trained political scientist, is strongly opposed to social welfare programs and has made dismantling the welfare state a central goal of his project. He has been in residence at the American Enterpise Institute since 1990 and currently holds the F. A. Hayek Chair Emeritus in Cultural Studies there. SOURCES: “Christianity and Eugenics: The Place of Religion in the British Eugenics Education Society and the American Eugenics Society, c.1907–1940” by Graham J. Baker (Social History of Medicine, 2014) “The Pioneer Fund: Financier of Fascist Research” by Steven J. Rosenthal (American Behavioral Scientist,1995) “The Pioneer Fund: Bankrolling the Professors of Hate” by Adam Miller (The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, 1994) “Revealed: International ‘race science’ network secretly funded by US tech boss” by David Pegg, Tom Burgis, Hannah Devlin and Jason Wilson (The Guardian, October 16, 2024) “A Company Says It Can Predict Your Baby’s IQ Before Birth. But Where’s the Science?” by Darren Orf (Popular Mechanics, August 7, 2025) The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Charles A. Murray and Richard Herrnstein (Free Press, 1994) Predatory Data: Eugenics in Big Tech and our Fight for an Independent Future by Anita Say Chan (University of California Press, 2025) “The Pronatalism of Silicon Valley” by Emma Waters (The Heritage Foundation, August 22, 2024) “The influencers who want the world to have more babies - and say the White House is on their side” by Stephanie Hegarty (BBC, April 1, 2025) “The Education of a Libertarian” by Peter Thiel (Cato Unbound, April 13, 2009) FOLLOW THE SHOW: Website: illconceivedpodcast.com Bluesky: ‪@illconceivedpodcast.com Tumblr: @illconceivedpod FOLLOW JOSH: Website: joshboerman.com Bluesky: @bosh.worstpossible.world Other podcast: The Worst of All Possible Worlds Stream: Traditional Scrench FOLLOW JUNE: Bluesky: @junlper.beer Other podcast: Kill The Computer Writing: June's Substack ILL CONCEIVED THEME SONG BY: Caleb (Linktree / Bluesky)

The White House will likely soon release a large set of documents about convicted pedophile and human trafficker Jeffrey Epstein further detailing the depths of his crimes. Alongside this, a line of rhetoric seems to be developing in certain right-wing circles: although what Epstein did was morally abominable, not all of it was criminal, and it's certainly categorically different from preying on "real children." But what exactly is childhood, and why are certain reactionaries making this argument now? This week, June and Josh look into the history of the concept of childhood in the United States to try and figure out why. ***REMINDER: WE HAVE A PATREON NOW! We record bonus mailbag episodes and release them at the beginning of each week. Come check us out at Patreon.com/illconceived!*** ***WE WANT YOUR THOUGHTS FOR THE MAILBAG! Send an email with feedback about this week's episode to illconceivedpod@gmail.com*** EPISODE ART: Richard Hanania, a writer and online right-wing personality whose work includes 2023's The Origins of Woke, published by HarperCollins under their Broadside Books imprint. Hanania is a co-author of Project 2025, previously wrote for white supremacists publications under the pen name Richard Hoste, and recently wrote about how pedophilia is a moral panic. AUDIO CLIPS: 3:11 – Megyn Kelly speaking about Jeffrey Epstein in a recent episode of The Megyn Kelly Show 1:05:01 – "Jailbait," a song released by Olivia Nuzzi under the pseudonym "Livvy" in 2009 when she was 16 years old 1:14:32 – Neil Sedaka performs "Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen" on American Bandstand in 1963 FURTHER LISTENING: The Worst of All Possible Worlds episode about Fireproof (Apple Podcasts / Spotify / Pocket Casts) SOURCES: Republican Wants to Loosen Child Labor Laws Why is the teen birth rate falling? Child Labor Laws - Facts and Misconceptions Injuries, death and abuse: The disturbing reality behind Ohio’s rollback child labor laws A Brief History of Education in the United States Epstein files: Who else was mentioned? Hulk Hogan Awarded $115 Million in Privacy Suit Against Gawker The U.S. Fertility Decline Is Not Due to the Drop in Teen Pregnancies Age of Consent Through the Years in the United States. Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles" FOLLOW THE SHOW: Website: illconceivedpodcast.com Bluesky: ‪@illconceivedpodcast.com Tumblr: @illconceivedpod FOLLOW JOSH: Website: joshboerman.com Bluesky: @bosh.worstpossible.world Other podcast: The Worst of All Possible Worlds Stream: Traditional Scrench FOLLOW JUNE: Bluesky: @junlper.beer Other podcast: Kill The Computer Writing: June's Substack ILL CONCEIVED THEME SONG BY: Caleb (Linktree / Bluesky)