Insomnia Coach® Podcast

Casaundra’s insomnia first showed up in college. From then on, it would come and go during periods of stress. After getting married, insomnia showed up and this time it didn’t go away. Before long, Casaundra would notice a feeling of anxiety as soon as her head hit the pillow. Nights started to feel like a battle. In an effort to fix her sleep, Casaundra tried blackout curtains, headphones, melatonin, medication, no screens, less water, strict routines, and even six kiwis before bed. The more she tried to control sleep, the more sleep seemed to control her life. In this episode, Casaundra shares how things changed when she started making life bigger than insomnia. As sleep got less attention, her evenings opened up. Her days opened up. She reclaimed her identity — and sleep took care of itself. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: ​Okay, Casaundra, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Casaundra: Thank you for having me. I’m super excited. Martin: Great to have you on. Let’s start right at the beginning as always. When did your sleep problems first begin, and what do you think caused those initial issues with sleep? Casaundra: Yeah, it’s been a long journey. I feel like, you know, as a kid I slept fine for the most part, but then you get to college and I think my like first bout of insomnia was probably like stress induced, it was like I was TAing for a class, I was training for a marathon. I was trying to keep really high grades and, and doing all these things. Casaundra: I’m like, I think I was just at the max and like it was just leading to me not being able to sleep because I was about all these things and all these projects and things to do. And so I think the stress kind of built and then that just started this like evolving journey of cycles of insomnia. Casaundra: So it would like come in different waves. Right. I remember leading my first team at work and. Going into another insomnia cycle. And that was like the first time I ever was put on Trazodone. then, you know, it went away. I think it would kind of ebb and flow, right? Like, oh, I, I would figure it out and it would go back to normal and then it would come back. but I had some really big life changes in like 20 22, 20 23. my, my grandmother who had raised me, had, had died. I had a relationship end that I’ve been in for years. And from all that I was also moving back to my home state, Ohio. And so you cram all of those things into a month and any normal person would probably struggle with sleep, but to me it wasn’t normal. Kind of put me into like this really bad insomnia cycle, right? And so I went back on Trazodone and it was like a year on Trazodone, which is a really long time to be on something like that. Then I finally like, we, we probably can talk more about how that went and what happened in it, but it kind of resolved a little bit. Casaundra: And then I married and I just went into like the hardest cycle of insomnia. And you know, for me it was like we didn’t live together before marriage. And so like having a person in my bed after I had just gotten my sleep, what felt like back on track was really like stressful to my body, I think. And it just was like, he could sleep anything all night long from like 8:00 PM on. And I was like trying to go to bed with him and like, you know, be married and, you know. Not stay up alone. And it just led to me trying even harder to sleep. And so those are, I think it’s been an ongoing thing, but those are kind of the most recent things. Martin: So there were these ups and downs. Maybe then you either adapted or you pulled back a little bit and then sleep had the chance to get back on track. Martin: But it felt like as time went on, when the sleep disruption showed up, it kind of morphed into its own thing. Like it didn’t respond quite as well to the changes that you made, the, the adaptions that you made, the efforts that you made to get things back on track. And then it soon became the main problem rather than all the actual stresses which had once triggered it. Casaundra: Absolutely. Sleep was like the number one thing on my mind during those times in my life, despite like all the other craziness in my life which just made it even more consuming. Martin: Was there such a thing as like an average night back then? If there was, what was it like? Casaundra: When I had that second to last bout of insomnia, where it was after all of those life changes, it was like, that was different because I had just gotten off Trazodone, but I like stopped like. did a hard stop. I didn’t taper, which to anyone listening, please don’t do that. Casaundra: Talk to your doctor about how to get, you know, taper down on medicine. But it kind of sent me into like, I wasn’t sleeping at all. Like there were two nights straight. I was like, did not sleep. And now I can look back at it and know it was probably the medicine. And there was probably nothing wrong with me outside of the fact that I stopped taking medicine inappropriately without tapering. But that was really hard. And so was really extreme in which the average night was like not sleeping. Where like my most recent bout was when I, you know, just got married and adjusting to living together and sleeping in the same bed. An average night was like, okay, I’m really tired. My husband’s going to bed, and I lay down and immediately just wake up. Right. It was like the adrenaline or the fight or flight. Like as soon as my head hit the pillow, I was immediately stressed and anxious about what that night was going to bring based on everything that I had experienced every night before that. Martin: Would you find that as the night was approaching you, maybe you were downstairs watch TV or doing whatever you’re doing, and you felt like sleepiness showing up, you felt like really drowsy, really sleepy, and then you went off to bed and then suddenly you felt wide awake. Casaundra: Yeah, and it was kind of a mix. Like I would be anxious, but I could feel tired, like I knew I was getting sleepy. Mm-hmm. But as soon as I felt sleepy, I got anxious, and as soon as I felt like I could go to bed, I put down my head on the pillow and it was, yeah. Complete anxiety about sleep and stress. Martin: It was like that problem solving brain just fires up and it starts to predict what the night is gonna bring or it starts to prepare you for the battle or the struggle that experience tells you is about to show up. Casaundra: Battle is such a good word for that. That is truly how it felt like so many nights. Martin: Anyone listening to this is gonna be all too aware that insomnia isn’t just a struggle that happens at night, and it also affects the days as well. I’m curious to hear from you when you found yourself in this struggle, what, what were the days like for you at that time? Casaundra: I think the biggest issue for me during the days was actually like the anxiety and like consuming thoughts around sleep. So for me, I like, I think I was like in such a high fight or flight and like high adrenaline mode that I didn’t feel tired, like I felt wound up despite not even, you know, consuming a ton of caffeine or doing anything crazy. Casaundra: I felt on edge all day and like I kind of looked at it like a blessing, like, thank God I can get through my days, but my mind was constantly consumed with researching sleep. What else could I do? What are people, what’s the new fad for getting to sleep and how could I adjust to make sure that I could go to sleep that night? Martin: A phrase associated with people struggling with insomnia is tired but wired. So it’s like you feel a real sense of tiredness or fatigue during the day, but at the same time you’re, you’re just completely wired, really alert. And like you shared, it can help get you through the day and in other ways it can also work against you perhaps if you kind of harness that energy to engage in ongoing problem solving and research, which is completely understandable ’cause you’ve identified a problem that you want to fix. But as we’ll probably explore a little bit more as the conversation progresses, it ends up consuming your attention and the focus of your day is no longer on doing the stuff that matters. Martin: It becomes on fixing this problem. Casaundra: And that’s exactly what happened to me. So it started with just those consuming thoughts, but then it completely changed what my evenings looked like and what I did and how I prepared to do all those things that I was researching. Martin: So connected to that. Moving on from that, what kind of things did you try in an attempt to get sleep back on track to deal with all these thoughts and these feelings that were showing up? Casaundra: I really feel like I did everything, and I’m sure you know, someone said something different, but I truly felt like anything that I read or someone told me, I was like. Open to try anything. Like I was so desperate that I would do anything to get my sleep back on track. And so it started with like environmental changes, right? The blackout curtains. Very expensive noise canceling like headphones for sleep because I lived in an apartment and I swore, well, like if something, just like, if I couldn’t hear anything and nothing could wake me up, then for sure I would sleep. And you know, it started with melatonin, but I had been on Trazodone before and eventually after that, those like sleepless, like absolutely sleepless nights, it led to Ambien after going to a sleep doctor and specialist. And oh my gosh. I feel like one of my coworkers was like, Casaundra, have you ever tried Kiwis? Like my boyfriend, he eats Kiwis before bed, like six Kiwis, and makes him go right to sleep. I’m like, oh my gosh. Kiwis must be magical. No. It turns out they just have like, they, you know, help you produce melatonin. And after I knew that, I’m like, I shouldn’t even waste my time because melatonin does nothing for me. But there was like several nights I ate six Kiwis every night. I have not had a Kiwi since. I, I’ve tried different foods, not eating before bed, phones for like, no phone, tv, anything screen related for like three hours before bed. It was to the point where I literally would stop drinking water at 6, 6 30 so that I wouldn’t have to get up to use the restroom during the night because I swore that was keeping me up. Right. If I didn’t have any more water, then I would, you know, not struggle to go to sleep. And then, you know, I was. also impacted my social life, right? I had a bible study that we would meet on Wednesdays starting at seven, which even now, like even after all of this, I don’t love late plans, but I really got anxious about anything starting at seven because that’s when my nighttime routine needed to start. That’s when I needed to like settle and not be excited. Casaundra: So the fact that I went and get home until 10 and showered and ready for bed until 11 was really stressful for me. So yeah, if, if you can name it, I tried it and you know, in that first bout where I wasn’t sleeping at all, I did like a CBT-I app. But it kind of missed the mark on the control piece or like how you’re thinking about it. Like they obviously had some pieces of that, but it was just still felt more like controlling you know, just knowing that sleep will eventually come and the more I try to control it, the less it’s going to work. Martin: There’s something, all of those things that you just share with us, they all have something in common, right? And it’s just this understandable attempt to control sleep to make a certain amount or a certain type of sleep happen. And that completely makes sense because you identified sleep as a problem. Martin: You are a problem solver. You wanted to fix it. So you put effort into trying to fix it. And where it sounds like you noticed you were getting stuck was no matter what you were trying, no matter what you were doing, it just wasn’t having the desired result. So that just led you to doing more, doing more, trying harder, trying harder, and your actions just became dominated by serving sleep rather than serve you and the life you want to live. So not only did you find the actions were creating more struggle, they were also kind of pulling you away from who you are and who you wanted to be and the life you wanted to live. Casaundra: Absolutely. I felt like a different person even, and especially that being like the first year that I was, or like first few months of being married, like I’m sure my husband was like, Who did I marry? Because everything we did, everything I ate, everything was about how could I sleep? And, you know, he slept like a rock. And I know it’s this cruel thing that, you know, all of us just marry someone that, you know, can sleep when we can’t sleep. he would, you know, be sleeping in bed and he’s the type of person that nothing bothers him. He could be woken up and go right back to bed. And so, like there were nights where I would just wake him up, just sobbing, right? Casaundra: Just absolutely sobbing and so frustrated and so angry, like so, so angry that I couldn’t sleep and he would just scratch my back and, you know, try and help me get back to sleep. And, and two minutes later he’d be asleep and I would still be awake. And it was just all consuming my whole personality. My whole church group knew about it. Casaundra: Like I was just the insomniac. Martin: It’s like it takes over your identity, your sense of self, who you are. Casaundra: Absolutely. Martin: I’m, I’m curious to know, did you ever ask your husband at that time, like what he did, like what his secret was to just sleeping in the way he did? Casaundra: You know, I, I never really asked him then because it was just like, he just went to sleep. Like no matter what, he would just, you know, be on his phone, do whatever, and he just went to sleep. But now, like, after your course, someone’s like talking to me about sleep or telling me to try something, you know, if we’re talking about my history with insomnia, and I’ll be like, well, like, you know, you sleep well. Casaundra: Like, what do you do? Sleep? So I didn’t ask him, but now I ask people that all the time when they’re like recommending something, because a lot of times they’re like, oh, I don’t do anything. I just, you know, go to sleep. And so. But it was something like, through your course, I, I realized so much. I’m like, oh my gosh, the kid’s doing nothing and it just comes to him and he’s not a kid. Casaundra: He’s a six seven grown man. But yeah, it was infuriating, also hopeful. Like I knew if he could sleep doing nothing and I could sleep. just wasn’t, which really made me feel like something was wrong with me for the longest time until I worked through a lot of things in this course. Martin: That’s the insight right there, isn’t it? If we do know someone who is a fantastic sleeper. When we’re struggling with insomnia, it often tends to be a, a bed partner or a, or a spouse if we’re in that situation, and you just kind of get a, a blank look when you ask someone who doesn’t struggle with sleep, like what they do to make that sleep happen, because the answer is they don’t do anything. Martin: And that can reveal opportunity and a new way forward if we feel like what we’re doing at the current time is keeping us stuck or not working for us. Martin: I think you touched upon it a little bit earlier, but I’m curious to know, you know, as you were doing all this problem solving and trying all these different things to get your sleep back on track, especially these things that you, you know, read about online that is shared with such confidence that this is the thing that will fix your sleep. When you tried those things and it just wasn’t working for you, what was that experience like? Casaundra: For me it was really difficult because I’ve always been like happy and you know, optimistic and able to look at things like with a glass like half full. with sleep, it was the first time I had some of those really dark thoughts. Like I felt not only alone, but hopeless, but also like. A different length, like level of anger that I’d never felt before. Casaundra: But part of that like came to a head and like literally wishing I was in the hospital or wishing something so bad would happen to me that I had to go to the hospital to be like put to sleep. And, you know, it’s amazing what a lack of sleep and all this trying and all these things that you’re doing when they don’t work make you feel when you can’t get to the result that you’re wanting. Casaundra: Like I had never been more desperate in my life. And, you know, as someone who loves your life and, and wants to live it to the fullest and was really scary to have those thoughts of, well, if I could just put an end to this whole not sleeping thing. And that was really eye-opening too for me. Like, I was like, wow, like I, I need some help and I need a way out of here. Martin: It is really difficult and it’s. It’s not just about the problem of sleep, not happening as you want it to. It’s about all the stuff that gets added on top. You know, all the, all the trying to fix the problem and that, that repeated experience of, I’m trying this, this isn’t working, I’m trying this, this isn’t working. Martin: You can just feel as though you’re completely out of options and that there’s no way out. It feels just, it just feels like you’re trapped. Casaundra: Absolutely. And everything else in my life, I’ve been able to work hard enough, right? hard enough at school, get the scholarship, work hard enough at X, Y, Z, like get the promotion, like in life. So many things in life, like you’re able to control that way. And it was really hard for me for this to be. Something I couldn’t control. So it was, it was a lot of growth there for me as well, which I’m sure we can talk about later in terms of just kind of this being a process in which learning that control isn’t the best option in every situation. Martin: Since you had already tried so much at this point, when you came across my website or my work, what made you think that there was something different here or something worth trying? Casaundra: I can remember finding your podcast on Spotify. Like any person, like struggling to sleep. I was like, let’s get a puppy. And so, you know, I had a puppy. I wasn’t sleeping even more because of the puppy, and I was taking him on a walk and was just searching on Spotify for insomnia, you know, solutions. Casaundra: And I, I found your podcast and I had already done the other like CBT-I app before this. And so I kind of recognized some of the things that you were talking about within that. But then there was this like resounding piece that everyone who shared their stories was sharing and it was this like relinquish of control. Like it doesn’t have as much weight on my life. And that felt really like encouraging and like hopeful because it was consuming so much of my life that I’m like, this seems different. Martin: First of all, it felt different, but it was also in that context of, here are people talking about my experience, they’re describing the kind of things that I am going through, that I’m struggling with. So if this is something that these people found useful, maybe it’s something I’ll find useful too. Casaundra: Yeah, and it was like, oh my gosh, like I felt like I found like the Disneyland of people who struggle with insomnia, and it was like the first time I saw heard actual stories of people working through insomnia that. It sounded so much like myself, right? And you find like certain episodes and you’re like, wow, this person’s so much like me and like my story. Casaundra: And on those bad days I would just like replay it, right? And now to this day, you know, it’s amazing how quickly you forget. But I can’t remember the name of that podcast, but I remember the hope that it gave me on my really hard days that there was a way out and people just like me found that. Martin: What showed up for you when you identified this theme of relinquishing control? Because after all, you were so invested in trying to fix this problem, and now you’re hearing, well, maybe the way to fix it is to give up this control. Like what did that feel like as, as an option or as a suggested way forward? Casaundra: You know, it was actually so hard, like as the person that’s used control, not in a negative way, but just in a, hey, in our circle of control in our lives, we can get to places we’ve never been, accomplish things we’ve never done, escape generational cycles, and I had done all that, right? And so for me, this idea that if I just stopped controlling it kind of scary, right? Casaundra: Like it, it was just born to the brain for me at least, right? It was something I’d always, I just always worked hard and if I, I work hard, it, it, it gets the result that I need. But then there was the second piece of it, right? So the first piece was like a shift from how I usually think. the second piece was, what does that actually mean? Casaundra: Like, I think part of me was kind of like angry, like, okay, like. Just stop trying to control it. Sounds really easy, except when you consider the human brain and how we focus on things that are important to us and, and how we want to improve it naturally without even realizing it when it’s negatively impacting us or how our body wants to protect us, right? Casaundra: So this thought of, oh, I’ll just stop controlling it frustrating because I’m like, but how, do I control, how do I stop, you know, controlling this or trying to control? So a lot of mixed emotions. Martin: The two big ones being hope and fear at the same time. You raise a really good point. How do I do this? Like, how do I put this into action? How do I relinquish control? What do I do instead? Because I have to do something. I can’t just do nothing. So I’m curious to hear from you what kind of things you did to put this whole idea of relinquishing control or moving away from resistance. Martin: How did you put that into action? Casaundra: It takes a long time, right? And that’s something like even by the end of your course, I wasn’t like, healed, right? It was like I wanted to be, heck, week one. I wanted to be. But it’s just not how it works because I just had to keep doing little things each week to make my life outside of sleep bigger than the sleep issue. And so like, that’s what it started to feel like to actually stop trying to control it, was to build up my life outside of sleep so that it just got less attention. And by giving it less attention, it got less control and sleep could kind of move in. And so, know, a few things, you know, mindset was huge, right? Casaundra: Just realizing and hearing and seeing the facts about like, I’m not gonna die because I’m not sleeping like I will survive. Like, that was a big one for me. Like, just hearing that and knowing like, I’m gonna be okay. Like all of these, you know, statistics that I’m seeing like does not mean that I am not going to be well, and plenty of people live long healthy lives without, you know, eight, nine hours of sleep. Casaundra: And so that was part of the mindset, like realizing it wasn’t going to hurt me and so I, I didn’t need to fix it. realizing I could just. Go about my days, right? Like I didn’t need to think about it like sleep was going to come. That that simple sentence of our bodies are going to sleep when they need to provided so much rest for me it, I no longer was like, I’m not going to sleep. I’m like, well maybe it’s not tonight, but it will, it will come eventually. Like I can’t this up forever and so it will come. And so those were a few things or a couple things that stuck out to me in like the mindset shift and then you get into like what actions, right? Casaundra: So the mindset kind of made room for new actions to come into play for me which sounds like trying to sleep, but it was like all actions to actually stop trying to force sleep. Like, so the first one I think that gets introduced is the sleep window, right? And this was like life changing for me, right? Casaundra: And I had done sleep for, I just, I hadn’t had that mindset shift, so it didn’t mean anything, you know? And so you can first have that mindset shift, then these things can come in and actually be effective. And so the sleep window, like I remember the first night was like excited, right? Like I was like, I have so much time to get stuff done. Casaundra: Like I’m a maximizer, right? And that goes into the problem solving all this stuff. And so the idea that, you know, I could cook and clean and do a hobby and take my dog Teddy on a walk, and I could just keep doing all these things until like 9:00 PM because I didn’t need to start a bedtime routine at like 6 30, 7, whatever time it was that night. so. That sleep window gave me more time in my day and I felt like, wow, like this is exciting. And, you know, started doing more yoga in the evenings afterwards and I had more time for my Bible study reading and shows if I, you know, wanted to stay up and watch it. ’cause I was actually allowed to, like, there were no rules, like everything before was, you can’t do this and don’t spend any time in your bedroom. Casaundra: Like, I loved my bedroom. Like, it was so aesthetic and pretty, and I would never spend any time in it because of all these rules I had in place around the, you know, they say like, the bedroom can only be for three things. And that’s like, you know, sleep, we can all use our imagination on the second one and then sickness, right? Casaundra: And so now I could just hang out in my bedroom. I could sit on my bed, I could watch a show if I wanted to, if I was really like just really needing to rest because other people did that, right? Like my husband could literally be on his phone, watch a horror film, like the craziest things before bed, and then like fall asleep. So like I could now, I had permission to do that. so the first action was kind of that sleep window, right? And it gave me a lot of freedom and just like time and what I could do and when I could do it. And also just, I wasn’t spending three hours trying to go to bed. Like part of the thing with getting married to my husband is that he likes to go to bed early, which I do too, but like he is an extreme degree of like. Eight 30, he can get in bed. And for most of us, that’s not good. And if we still to this day, like he’ll be like, I’m so tired, I’m gonna go to bed. I’m like, I’m gonna read because I am not tired yet. And I know that if I try to go to bed before I’m even naturally sleepy, like it’s probably not gonna be a good thing for me, even though I don’t say I struggle with insomnia anymore. So that was kind of all things into the sleep window. And then, you know, I dropped all the behavioral and environmental things. Casaundra: Okay. I have, I lied a little bit. I still like use the earplugs, but only because now it’s just like a comfort thing. I don’t feel like I need them. If I forget them, it’s no big deal. It’s just like. I kind of imagine like a kid with a stuffed animal, it’s just like, oh. It’s like, okay, bed. so it’s like there’s no attachment to needing those, but I don’t take melatonin. Or I didn’t then. Right. It’s part of the change of knowing it wasn’t helping. Don’t take any of the harder, like Ambien that I was prescribed, and I just, I don’t have to eat six Kiwis and that’s really nice. So a lot of things have kind of let up on the behavioral and environmental changes and I can hang out with my friends, like, what a blessing in life. And so that’s kind of the environmental, behavioral and then you get to just like, well, everything wasn’t just fixed, right? And so what happens when I’m still awake at night and I can’t sleep even after that wake window ends and I’m allowed to, you know, go to bed. And there came in like. The just experiencing being awake. And so I, I took pieces from everything, right? I would go back to the mindset of sleep’s eventually going to come, I could use any of those, you know, tools or hobbies that I used to kind of relax during my sleep, like before my sleep window started. So I could do that if I wasn’t sleeping. But I could also just let the thoughts be and thank them for being there without them being so infuriating, right? I was no longer angry about being awake. I could just be awake. And I, I think one of my favorite things too, from the course was like, so much freedom in how you do these things. Like you would say, Hey, you can stay in bed if that’s comfortable still. And I love that because I hate getting outta bed when I am cold or it’s like. I don’t know. I just love being cozy in bed. So like the permission to just staying in bed as long as that’s still serving me mm-hmm. Really went a long way. Casaundra: So those were a few of the things. I think there were definitely other things but those are some of the big things that impacted my recovery. Martin: Something that really stood out for you. I think one of the first things you said was, which kind of encompassed everything that you shared, I started to make my life bigger than sleep. Those actions that we were talking about earlier, that when they’re so focused on serving sleep, serving insomnia, you took them back. Martin: Those actions started to once again serve you. So you were, you know, reading more, you were doing yoga, watching tv, doing your Bible studies. The sleep window helped with that because it was one of those actions that moved you away from the chasing after sleep. You recognized that the amount of time you were allotting for sleep each night wasn’t really serving you. Martin: It was kind of setting you up for long periods of being awake in bed during the night. So by compressing that down and more closely matching it with the amount of sleep you’re currently getting, there was more opportunity for you to do these things that mattered. It opened up all this additional time that you had available to do things that served you and the life you wanted to live, and that in turn helped reduce the influence of sleep in your life. Martin: It was still there, like sleep or insomnia was still there, but now it was one of many things rather than the only thing. And like you touched upon that didn’t mean that suddenly there was this miraculous transformation and that sleep was happening exactly as you wanted it to, or the, all these difficult thoughts, difficult feelings, stopped showing up. Martin: But it’s got you started on this new way forward where you were reclaiming your life, where life was becoming bigger and opening up again. And I’m curious to hear a little bit more about how you were addressing all the thoughts and the feelings that show up at night. You know, especially when sleep isn’t happening as you want it to happen. Martin: You said that something changed there, where you kind of gave permission for those thoughts to exist. You even thanked them for showing up and that in turn kind of reduced how they were affecting you. Martin: What would you say to someone that might be sitting here listening to this thinking I can’t possibly open up or accept those things ’cause they’re really difficult. And it’s just the idea of opening up to them in itself is really scary. Casaundra: It is really scary, right? Because you’re like, I have fought this so hard, like, why would I, and, you know, invite them in. But it, it takes the power away, right? And, and they can’t hurt you, right? The more you let them in, the less they actually hold over you. I, I, I remember my thoughts would just kind of swirl and ruminate and, and keep going, but when I would actually like. Let them in and observe them and see what they were telling me, which is that sleep is important. And of course I have important things coming up in my life. Or you know, I wanna sleep for a certain reason. Telling me all these things were important to me. I could just thank them because I was like, yes, this is important. Casaundra: Thank you for showing me that. It is important, but I’m gonna let you go now. Right. And I, I don’t remember if it was part of the course or, and I think it probably was, but I would just like imagine them like going out the window, right? Like the breeze would kind of pull them out the window. And I think maybe some people would do like, you know, flowing down water or something. And just that visual, even though it sounds really silly, helped me to just kind of watch them go, right? I let them come in, I let them stay. We had a good talk, but now they could go and they might come right back. Sometimes they just like come around the window and start knocking on the door. And you’re allowed to just do the same thing. I found like if I didn’t let them in, it actually made it worse. And I actually just kept ruminating over what I thought it was going to be. And this has helped me in like other areas of my life too, right? I can sometimes be anxious about, you know, driving on the highway, right? And what if something bad happens to me? Casaundra: And just like recognizing, well, okay, that’s a really small chance that would happen, and what’s the worst thing that could happen, right? I go to be with Jesus and my family’s taken care of because all the things I’ve put in place, okay, that’s actually not that bad, right? And so it’s helped me in other ways too, of like not just insomnia, knowing, oh yeah, I’m gonna be fine tomorrow. Casaundra: Like no matter how tonight goes, I’m going to be fine. I’m gonna do all the things that I need to do no matter what. Martin: It sounds like you found it helpful to recognize that your brain wasn’t working against you. That all these thoughts and these feelings that were showing up, many of which can be really difficult to experience, don’t come from your brain working against you. It comes from your brain, like reminding you of what’s important, reminding you of what matters, looking out for you. Martin: And that in itself just acknowledge being aware of that, that my brain isn’t an adversary can help support you in responding differently with less resistance. Casaundra: Oh yeah. Even like to this day, you know, if I have a rough night or I’m just not sleeping as easy as sometimes I do. It’s like, oh yeah, like I’m, I was so excited about this new podcast I found, or something at work that’s happening, and so it’s like, oh yeah, like I’m excited or I’m stressed. Like this makes total sense. And you’re like, okay, yeah, maybe I don’t sleep the best at tonight, but it’s just because of X, Y, Z, not because I’m broken, not because I need to change anything or I can’t sleep. None of that’s true. It’s just the things that are now filling up my life. Martin: The approach that you took that you found helpful, which, which to summarize, it sounds like it was, first of all, just kind of acknowledging what your brain was telling you. Maybe thanking it for looking out for you, then being more of an observer of whatever these thoughts and these feelings were. Martin: You shared that as you did that it kind of lifted the weight of them a little bit, but you did notice that sometimes they would drift off, but then sometimes they would also come back. How did you respond to that experience of them coming back? Because I think often what can happen is when we practice this new approach of opening up, reducing our resistance, and we notice, wow, these thoughts, these feelings are losing their power. Martin: They’re losing their influence. Oh, they’re disappearing. When they come back, suddenly it can feel like uhoh, the brain goes into alert. This is another one of those things that’s not working. Now we have to do something different. I’m just curious to hear what your experience was like with that and how you responded. Casaundra: Yeah, I would love to say that every time I came back, I just did it all again and it worked just fine. The reality is sometimes they come back and it’s, it’s even more scary, right? Because there’s a part of insomnia that when little pieces that remind you of it come back into your life or a thought comes back up and it’s not easy. It’s like scary, right? Like you’re like, is tonight gonna be that night? Or is, you know, you start. Can start having negative thoughts about it. And so that did happen sometimes, right? Casaundra: I didn’t spend as much time in that really dark place. Right. Which was a really scary place for me. Remember, because it’s not who I am. I was so much kinder to myself, right? It, it didn’t have as much weight. I, I didn’t feel like I was broken or that it was my fault. was just the nature of, you know, being human. Martin: Were there any other changes that you wanted to mention or share that you found helpful on this journey of moving away from the struggle with insomnia? Casaundra: Yeah, I think one for me that sometimes just kind of gets looped into like the sleep window thing was the buffer zone. So having that hour before bedtime to just do tasks that were not only just enjoyable and like full of life, but also more relaxing and the way of just like signal signaling to my body that I was preparing for sleep without controlling it. Right? Just doing a little bit more relax. And I honestly still use this like out of all the techniques. This idea of a buffer zone of, Hey, I know I’m a person that’s really sensitive to my environment, right? Casaundra: My husband to this day can, you know, do what he does, but I know I need like a half an hour, an hour to just kind of relax and let my body be as it kind of prepares to feel naturally sleepy so that I am going to bed tired. so that zone or the idea that you have a window of time right before bed to just kinda relax and do things to bring you joy, really helped me. Martin: Setting aside some time to unwind and just do things that you personally find relaxing and enjoyable rather than giving yourself a rule that I’ve gotta be home an hour before I go to bed, and I’ve gotta spend an hour making myself relax, making myself feel sleepy, and making myself have the best possible chances of making sleep happen. Casaundra: Oh yeah, absolutely. Like now, sometimes it’s like five minutes, right? I’ll be like, well, I’m just gonna like wind down and I open the book and I’m like, oh, I am so tired. Close the book and go to bed. And other times where it’s like, oh, I’m really finding that’s enjoyable and that turns into more time, but it’s never something that has to start at 9:00 PM and it’s, you know, never something. Casaundra: I feel like, oh my gosh, if I don’t have this, then I’m not going to be able to sleep. Martin: And, and that’s the difference there, isn’t it? Because as we talk about any of this stuff for example, a buffer zone or like a time to unwind, where we can set the stage for struggle is with our intention. So if the intention with something like a buffer zones to make sleep happen, that might be an action that doesn’t really serve us. Martin: If the intention with the buffer zone is to just set aside some time in the evening that might have once been filled with struggle and effort and trying to just be a period of time where we can do whatever we want, something that we find enjoyable, relaxing, pleasant, that can be productive, then that can be useful, then that can be a workable thing to do. Casaundra: The intent changed so much for me and like not trying to force sleep and at first you, you’re gonna kind of be lying to yourself maybe for, you know, some people I, I’ll speak for myself, but at first it was like, my intent is not to sleep. Like, not to force sleep, but my intent was definitely to go to sleep at first. Casaundra: But it, it involves and so you kinda have to lie and, you know, kind of trick your brain for a little bit occasionally to start actually believing that. And that might not be true for everyone, but as a control freak, like you might start off like just speaking a different truth over your body than is actually going on. Martin: Something we touched upon earlier was about, you know, how in the insomnia struggle isn’t just a nighttime problem, it it, it’s a 24 7 problem. It goes into the days as well. And a change that you made with your days was to just really focus your attention on actions that served you, that were important to you, that mattered to you, rather than what might make a certain amount or a certain type of sleep happen. Martin: Something else that can make these days more difficult too, are the thoughts and those feelings that can show up. You know, the anxieties, the worry and the time traveling that from the brain, like predicting what the night is gonna be like tonight or what previous nights were like, and that in turn could just make things. Martin: More difficult and it makes it harder to do those things that matter. I’m curious to hear from you if you practiced anything or had this way of dealing with all those thoughts and feelings that would show up during the day. What did you find was a workable way to deal with them at that time? Casaundra: It was kind of just like, you know, noticing and observing it. It was kind of like the abbreviated version of what I would do at night, right? Casaundra: Like, I would observe what was happening, kind of ground myself back to my day and then just move forward. And I, I can’t remember it as much because I feel like my life was so busy, like between work and everything, the moment that I stopped you know, being so consumed about researching what could make me sleep, it gave me a lot more freedom in my days. Casaundra: But that being said, like I definitely still had to redirect. And this is the same exercise when I was saying help me with like, being in the car and driving. It’s kind of that similar thing of like, notice what you’re feeling and let it be and observe it, and kind of grounding yourself and what’s actually happening around you. Martin: It comes down again to less resistance. And every time you got that opportunity to practice developing that skill of reducing your resistance it kind of strips them of their power and their influence. You are better able to refocus. So you are noticing, first and foremost whatever thought and feeling was showing up. Martin: Then you are opening up, dropping that resistance, allowing it to be with you, and then just noticing or refocusing on where you are. What you were doing or what you wanted to be doing, even when that thought is still there. So your goal isn’t to kind of get rid of it. Although sometimes when we lower that resistance, it does make it easier to flow, to come and go, but it was just to refocus your attention when those thoughts and feelings showed up. Martin: So they didn’t kind of jerk you around so much. Casaundra: And so many times I would be like halfway through the exercise and it would already start kinda working, right? I’d be like, oh yeah, and I’m, now, I’m gonna think about this without planning on it, right? Instead of it just like coming at me so hard with me trying to push it away, like I definitely am the person to like push away negative. Casaundra: And so these like exercises helped a lot with me not pushing it away, but allowing it to come even though it was scary. Martin: You make a good point there that this stuff can still feel scary. It’s not about trying to make something not scary or trying to make a thought or a feeling disappear. It’s just about acknowledging or accepting that your experience seems to suggest that these thoughts and feelings and emotions are out of your direct control. Martin: There’s no magic switch that you can flick to turn them off. So continuing to try might be making them more difficult. So how about we respond in a different way? And that different way is really easy for us to talk about. It’s certainly a lot easier than putting it into practice, but with practice, we can develop this skill in experiencing all this difficult stuff with less of a struggle so it doesn’t have quite so much power and influence over us. Martin: How long would you say that it took for you to get to a point where it felt like you weren’t just in this endless struggle with sleep, you know that you were out of the struggle, you could live your life independently of sleep, no matter what kind of thoughts, no matter what kind of feelings were showing up. Casaundra: Like I said at the beginning of the call, like I wanted it to be week one, and I’m sure everyone listening is like, man, I, I hope it’s week one of this course. But for me, it, it really took like a month or two after, like, I can’t remember the exact time or date because once it stops being so big, you kind of stop remembering it, and so. For me, it was like ending the course and letting it not even be that big in my life. Right? Like there were a lot of tools I needed to learn, right? And all the videos and the how-tos, like all of those were so important and I needed to have all of those in my tool belt. But after that, I just needed more time to, to use those without a focus on it. Casaundra: Right? And as soon as I, I didn’t have those things that I needed to watch or do every week, the less and less sleep became a big deal and the farther I got away from thinking about it as much as I was. And so I would say about a month or two, probably after I finished maybe a little bit more it really kind of start to settle and the idea of, you know, no night is ever perfect, but I really didn’t feel like I was an insomniac anymore. Casaundra: I kind of felt just like a human with sleep. Martin: What did progress look like for you? What were your measures of progress? What told you that you were heading in the right direction? Casaundra: I think for me it was like the weight on me about my sleep. Like, did I wake up thinking I didn’t get enough? Or how big of an influence is this going to have? So, like early on that was really big for me. Like the progress within your course was measured by how was I feeling in my day and could I go about my day without this being bigger than the rest of my life? Casaundra: And so that was it. And as much as I wanna say that I, you know, didn’t look at the amount of sleep I was getting as like tracker of progress, you kind of do it naturally, but it wasn’t like. I need more sleep. It was just like, huh, wow. Casaundra: Like I slept really well last night. I didn’t do anything. So I think you kind of just notice it throughout your life anyways without putting too much of an emphasis on it. It really just also let me be a different person, right? Like my husband got back the person that he lost when we were first married, and I was struggling with insomnia. Martin: It was interesting hearing you share what your markers of progress were because you didn’t really say in there, oh, the nights when I got like seven hours of sleep, I knew that was progress. Martin: Or eight hours of sleep or six hours. There was no number of hours of sleep. You didn’t even describe the type of sleep. And that’s insightful because I think that for as long as we are measuring progress based on sleep, which, our experience, if we’ve been struggling with it, probably tells us is out of our control. Martin: Then it sets the stage for that ongoing struggle. But your markers of progress, as you were reflecting were, you know, I was just noticing sleep wasn’t a big deal. It wasn’t as big a deal. It was losing some of its power or some of its influence. It was more about what, what am I doing with my life? Like, what am I doing day to day? Martin: Are my actions serving me? Do they reflect my values? Do they reflect the life I wanna live? Are my actions moving me in the direction that I want to be heading? Martin: I think you summarized it as well towards the end. You know, I, I got my life back, you know, I am the person that I want to be and all of those things are a ction based. They’re all things that you can control. It’s so helpful to use things like that as measures of progress rather than what kind of sleep am I getting from night to night. Casaundra: Absolutely. And I think like, you know, even hearing on other people like them share on the podcast, it was, it was more about that too, right? Like it’s a beautiful thing of like, this is the power of not holding so much control over sleep. Martin: One more question about progress whilst we’re on that subject. Did you find that as you were practicing these new skills, that it was like every single day or every single night was just kind of like better than the previous one? Or about the same of, did you notice there were ups and downs? I’m just curious what the journey looked like for you in terms of progress. Casaundra: That’s probably two steps forward, one step back kind of thing. I, I, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say, yeah, it was just smooth sailing from course on out. Like, that wasn’t my experience either, right? Every, every night looked a little bit different and some made me fearful that I was starting over at the beginning. Casaundra: But everything I learned taught me that, hey, that’s not the actual truth. Like this is normal and it will get better the more you keep working on these tools. So were definitely a lot of setbacks, but the mental mind shift, like the shift in mindset just makes it where it’s not as big of a deal. Martin: I’m curious to know what it was that kept you moving forward when those setbacks happened, especially those, the initial setbacks early on, you know, you’re noticing the progress. Then you have like your first kind of setback, or you notice you have that awareness that you’re getting pulled back into the struggle or that you are struggling again. Martin: How do you kind of reset or refocus and continue moving forward when that happens? Casaundra: It always would start with like the reminders. Like I, I would remind myself, I know sleep’s coming, like I know that this isn’t the truth over my life. But then comes like the motivation of like why I keep going, right? So what gets me to keep going, but then why is, is more of a, I just wanted my life back. Casaundra: Like, I hated being awake at night and wondering how the rest of the entire world had their lights off and were sleeping, and I just wanted to be that person with their lights off. And so I knew if I just kept putting one foot forward every day, I was bound to get there no matter if I had to go back a little bit every once in a while. Martin: It sounds like you found it helpful to remind yourself of why it’s important for you to respond in a certain way. Why this idea of reducing resistance, focusing on workable action actions that matter to you why that’s important, why it matters, and that’s what helped you stay focused on continuing to do the things that mattered and keeping you moving in the direction you want it to be heading. Casaundra: Absolutely. Martin: What would you say that you’ve learned from this whole experience and in what ways do you feel that you’ve grown from it, if any. Casaundra: Yeah, no a lot and summarize maybe two. So for me, like the perception of insomnia and, and what it actually is, and it’s, it’s shifted for me now. It’s not so much of a problem ’cause I know sleep’s going to come and if there is a disturbance in my sleep, it, it’s that, right? That word right there disturbance. Casaundra: It’s just something disturbing my sleep instead of insomnia or this like chronic thing that can’t be overcome. And so there’s a big perception change around what insomnia even is. And, then the second thing is just control, right? I, it has really helped me not try to control other things in my life. Just like with sleep, you know, there’s other things that kind of work the same, right? Stress or, I am trying to think of another good example, but stress is kind of the only other one I can think of that’s as similar. Like the more you focus on it, the worse it might get and sometimes you just have to let it go and it’s really helped me with that. Casaundra: Anxiety probably is another great example, honestly, better. So it’s really helped me with letting those things go and, and changing how I approach control. Casaundra: I wouldn’t wish insomnia on my worst enemy, but at the same time, I’m like so thankful for what I found and what I learned in your course and how it’s enabled me to react so differently to things that feel so impossible. Martin: I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken at your day to come onto the podcast. I do have one last question for you, and then it’s this one. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, they’re beyond help, that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them? Casaundra: I would say, you know, our creator God, designed sleep, and it’s going to come eventually. And the more you can relinquish control of trying to get sleep by filling your life with joy regardless of what the nights look like and the more energy you spend bringing that effort and attention to those things that fill up your life, the less you’re going to be controlling your sleep, and then the more you will. Martin: thank you again for coming onto the podcast, Casaundra. It’s really appreciated. Thank you. Casaundra: Thank you so much. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Please share this episode!

Courtney’s experience with insomnia didn’t start overnight — but when it hit, it hit hard. Looking back, she could see some early signs. As a child, she was sensitive to her environment. New places, travel, small changes — sleep didn’t always come easily. But it wasn’t something that took over her life. That changed in 2020. With a new baby, the stress of the pandemic, family tension, and untreated anxiety, everything began to build at once. Then the nights started to change. She began waking up in the early hours of the morning, wide awake. At first, it was confusing. Then it became frightening. The moment she noticed she wasn’t asleep, panic would take over. Her heart would race. Her body would react as if something was wrong. Nights became something to fear. Sleep became something she felt she had to make happen. She tried everything — supplements, routines, changes to her environment, and eventually medication. But nothing brought consistent relief. Her days started revolving around sleep. Avoiding things. Planning everything around the night ahead. Trying harder, doing more — all in the hope that sleep would finally come. But the harder she tried, the more difficult it became. What began to shift things for Courtney wasn’t another strategy — it was a different way of understanding what was happening. A realization that nothing was broken. That her body already knew how to sleep. And that the struggle itself might be what was keeping her stuck. From there, things didn’t change overnight. It took time. Practice. Setbacks. Learning how to respond differently to difficult nights and the thoughts and feelings that came with them. But slowly, something began to change. She started trusting her body again. Sleep became less of a battle. And instead of her life revolving around sleep, she was putting more of her energy into the things that mattered to her each day — and insomnia lost its power and its influence. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Courtney, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Courtney: Thank you very much for having me on. Martin: It’s great to have you on. Let’s start right at the beginning as always. When did your sleep problems first begin, and what do you feel caused those initial issues with sleep? Courtney: So I think what caused the insomnia battle that I dealt with was some background things that got, had, had gone on in my life. For example my mom has always struggled with sleep, so I have wondered if there’s a genetic component to that. Even as a kid, I’ve just always been more sensitive to my environment. Courtney: For example if I went to a friend’s house, I wouldn’t sleep very well. There was times I’d have my mom come and get me because I wasn’t sleeping. Probably get really anxious if the, if we’re traveling, I don’t sleep well, if the room is too hot, I don’t sleep well. Just things like that. Just very sensitive to shifts in my environment. Courtney: And then in 2020 is when I began my battle with insomnia. What also added into that was just some unhelpful beliefs about sleep that I just picked up from the media. Courtney: For example, like I feel like there’s a lot of times that they’ll do a study or they’ll release an article that doesn’t tell the full story, but is enough to cause fear in you about insomnia. So for example, if someone doesn’t get seven to nine hours a night, that could lead to whatever catastrophic thing or. Courtney: Insomniacs are, you know, shown to struggle with, you know, fill in the blank there. So I had that kind of fearful mindset already. And then yeah, you just add in. My husband and I had our first child in 2019. Around that time I was struggling with an un untreated anxiety disorder, and I was trying to muscle my way through that. Courtney: And then, as you know, the years progressed. We had some family and relational tension and my husband has some job changes due to the pandemic that happened, let alone the pandemic itself and the fear around that. So there was just a lot of lifestyle changes at that time that I think I had a hard time with, and I just never slowed down to kind of process that or make space for that. Courtney: And I think my body was trying to communicate that to me through anxiety, but I just didn’t slow down to listen. And then it, it. Overflowed into a, a sleep disorder or insomnia right around 2020. And I’ve struggled with that for quite a few years and finally I’m in a better place where I feel like I can talk about it having been on the other side of it. Martin: So it sounds like for you, concern or a focus or issues with sleep was always something that was kind of with you, maybe perhaps more in the background. It would show up every now and then, but then in 2020 around then there was lots of change going on. Lots of stresses, lots of different stuff happening and so the sleep issues resurfaced, but this time it felt different. Courtney: Yes. There was just a few nights that I started waking up at like 3:00 AM just wide awake. And I was like, huh, this is weird. And then it started getting more and more frequent, and there was a few nights that I did not sleep at all. And what shifted was my focus on it and my fear around it. So I started becoming very fearful, like, what is wrong with me that I can’t sleep? So as that fear grew, I started to become more fearful of nighttime. Courtney: And it was on the week of Halloween. There was a few nights that I, I didn’t sleep at all. Like, I would lay down at night and I, I lay there for maybe about 15 minutes or so, and it’s like, as soon as I was aware, oh, I’m not sleeping yet, I would instantly have a panic attack. I mean, I was sweating, my heart was racing. Courtney: I was in full panic mode. I had my, I called my dad up ’cause he lives, you know, nearby. And my husband stayed with our son and I had him take me to the emergency room at about 3:00 AM just panic stricken. Courtney: And I didn’t even know, I just, I needed help and I didn’t know where to go. So he took me there and I mean, I went in and I was just like, I just can’t sleep. I, I can’t sleep. And I’m sure they thought. You know, I was on something ’cause they ran a full drug screen and of course that came back clean. I was just panic stricken, severe anxiety. Courtney: But it probably looked to them like I was taking a stimulant of some kind. ’cause how else, like, would I end up there? Not able to sleep. But unfortunately, like they didn’t really have any answers for me. I remember talking with the nurse and just telling her my story and she acknowledged, she’s like, you’ve been through a lot of life change and, you know, that can contribute to this. Courtney: But there was no real like, help. I think they gave me two Benadryl and I think that made me doze off for an hour in the ER while I was waiting to be discharged. And I think that only came from the fact that they were treating me for something like they were taking care of me. So I feel like I could like come down a little bit and then went home and I don’t think I slept the rest of the night after that. Courtney: The next morning I think I crashed on the couch for maybe an hour, and then the following Thursday, I ha ended up having my husband take me into the emergency room. ‘Cause we had stayed at my parents’ house that night and so they were with my son and my husband took me in and I was again just begging them to help me sleep. Courtney: Prior to that I was able to get in with the local psychiatrist’s office and I think I went to them that Thursday and, you know, they gave me medication and they gave me an anti-anxiety medic medication. And then also she called it a heavy hitter sleep medication. I think it was Restoril, which is an older generation drug. Courtney: And I was like, okay, this will do it for me. And she was pretty confident. She’s like, well, you know, put you on this for a very limited time, maybe two weeks. And we’ll see how that goes. So I went home that Thursday night and I took it and it didn’t help. And I, so I can’t even tell you the fear, the shame, the confusion of, they gave me a heavy hitter as she put it, sleep medication. Courtney: And that was not enough to help me sleep. So hence, I, I ended up back in the ER and all they could do was give me another dose of that, just because I think you were allowed to take two and that was the maximum. So I, from then on, I was taking the maximum dose of that much longer than the two weeks. And so I felt completely just weak, broken alone, confu, I mean, anything you can think of in a dark season like that, I felt it because I was like, this is not helping. Courtney: Like this is the strongest that they have and this is not enough to knock me out, like, what is wrong with me? Martin: Well that was a really difficult situation that you were going through. And so the way it sounds like it was different, apart from the obvious in terms of the visits to the emergency room, was when the sleep issue showed up. Martin: This time around, they, they felt different. Like you were waking up during the night and sleep just wasn’t getting back on track like it was in the past. So that led to some understandable concern ’cause you’re a human being. But then the more that concern raised. Perhaps there was like more pressure to make sleep happen, more effort to make sleep happen more trying. Martin: And then that in turn just made it more difficult until it reached this crescendo where you’re just kind of, you can’t try any harder. And then we’re told, well, this, this is the most powerful medication we have. This will make sleep happen. And when that isn’t working, especially after you’ve been told that, then you’re feeling really alone out of options. Martin: Confused, scared, as you said, you can feel broken and it just makes it just even so much more difficult and scary. Courtney: Yes. And so what even made it worse was I was back in the psychiatrist’s office a few days later and I think she was very concerned that I had to take the maximum dose. And that it wasn’t helping. Courtney: So on top of that, on top of the anxiety medication, on top of the heavy sleep medication, she prescribed a anti-psychotic, not because I was psychotic, but because it was also used off-label as a a sleep to induce sleep. So she’s like, maybe this com, you know, combined with the Restoril, will help you go back to the one pill, the one dose, and then you don’t have to take the two. Courtney: We can get you off of it faster. Well, I wish that was the case, but I still had to take the two, I had to take the anti-psychotic and I was on it longer than the two weeks. So then that snowballed into fear of dependency on the medication. And I will say I was dependent on it because it got to a point where if I even thought, okay, maybe I can try to not take it tonight, I would instantly have anxiety. Courtney: So. After, after, you know, the, the hospital trips and the trips to the, the psychiatrist, I, the medicine did help temporarily. There was a couple nights that knocked me out for like 10 hours. So I was taking everything that they gave me and I, I got some sleep, but it was like, one night would be 10 hours and then the next night, you know, I might get four hours and then another night I would make that up, like my body would sleep longer. Courtney: So it was kind of like a rollercoaster of sleep. I just had the hardest time getting balanced again. Martin: So it sounds as though you felt just really dependent on all these different medications. But at the same time you felt that this was just unsustainable, like continuing to take this much medication, especially when it wasn’t even generating consistently good sleep for you. Martin: But as far as you are concerned, you had no other options. Courtney: Exactly, yes. And so it was hard because the, the other feelings, it wasn’t just about the sleep anymore. So there was nights that I would get up and just go for a walk around our neighborhood at like 3:00 AM And I, I remember thinking, this is like so weird how like, physically I am up walking in the dark when everybody else is asleep and I should be asleep, but I can’t. Courtney: And then emotionally I’m in the same place. Like I’m dealing with something that no one around me knows what to do with. I, you know, I remember talking to family and friends and even my husband just like, you know, they were telling me, oh, have you tried melatonin? Have you tried lavender? Have you tried CBD oil? Courtney: And I’m like, yes, I’ve done all of it. But they just, they don’t know. And I remember my husband saying maybe try not to think about it. And so then I’m like, okay, maybe he’s right. Courtney: Maybe I just need to not think so much about it. And that’s when I was, I lay down at night and I would try to control my thoughts and I would try to, I started changing my environment because I was of course researching everything, being a problem solver. And I’m like, okay, so I need to, you know, wear the blue light glasses. Courtney: I need to not drink coffee afternoon. I need to do all, all of the things that, you know, I’m sure many people have talked about with you that you’ve discussed on your channel that other people have done. Like I did all of them, but the intention behind them was to induce sleep. So every time I did those things, it backfired. Courtney: And I think those things are, can be helpful if you’re trying to relax your body. If you’re trying to. I was actually just talking to my dad about this. He asked me about like a, a sleep supplement. I’m like, well, if you’re trying to, you know, support your body, great, but I think it can backfire. If you’re trying to induce sleep, if the goal is to make yourself sleep, that can be very problematic. Courtney: And that was my case. So it was just a very lonely place of people suggesting things and telling me things, and I’m like, I’ve done all of it. None of it works. Something’s wrong with me. Like I, I remember thinking my, something in my brain must have just broke. And when you look online about insomnia outside of the community that you have created, there’s not, there’s nothing that’s helpful. Courtney: So it was just, it was a very lonely place of trying to navigate this until I came across your channel. Martin: You made an insightful point there that all the things that you did for as long as the intention was to make a certain amount or a certain type of sleep happen. It was going to backfire because sleep is out of your direct control. Martin: But when you were going through this struggle, was, was that insight present? Like did you realize at the time that the more your intention was focused on trying to make sleep happen the more you seemed to struggle? Or was it more of a case of I’ve just gotta keep trying, sooner or later I’ll find something that works. Courtney: Yes. So initially I think I was just so frazzled that I was trying anything and everything, and I mean, I, it took me quite a while to come across your channel. I was looking at different, I was researching things, I was looking at different videos and for me personally, my faith is very important to me. Courtney: So I was looking thing, looking for things through that lens. And the first thing that I came across that was even a little bit helpful was there’s, there was this guy who was talking about his struggle with insomnia, and he talked about the importance of surrender. Courtney: And just for him, you know, he talked about just surrendering everything to God and giving up and not trying so hard. And that was enough for him. And I’m like, okay, I can, you know, I can do that. I can surrender. And, you know, I did have a night where I was like, all right, you know, if I’m never gonna sleep again, I can’t help it. Courtney: Like, I, I give up and, you know, but for me, and that helped for a little bit. The surrender or the acceptance did help for a little bit. But for me, I just, I needed more information. I’m someone who, I, I love to know the why behind why I’m doing things. I love to, you know, learn as much as I can. And so when I finally stumbled across your channel, you explained everything with the why behind it, why in insomnia develops, why your body’s doing what it’s doing, why your efforts are failing. Courtney: And I’m like, okay, this is, this is filling in the gaps that I have needed in order to move forward. Martin: Mm. So perhaps it’s education, perhaps that educational component of it. A greater understanding of where insomnia comes from, what keeps it alive, what gives it power and influence just felt reassuring. Martin: Now things started to make sense for you. Maybe you didn’t feel broken anymore. You realized that you weren’t broken, you were just stuck. And I think you made a good point too, because when we hear people talk about surrender or acceptance. That, that can be a new option that’s available to us. And like you said, you experimented with it but without that kind of understanding on, you know, why is this helpful? Martin: How is this helpful? It can make it harder to commit to that kind of approach. Courtney: Exactly, exactly. And so it was frustrating because like, everything that I was looking into felt like just a bandaid. And it, it, it was hard because the things that I was doing was not helping, like, it wasn’t addressing the root cause. Courtney: And, you know, I, I did everything I could. I had, there were nights my husband would stay up with me to talk with me. I had people praying for me. I was praying about it, like trying all the supplements and nothing like, you feel just helpless. You’re like, I’m doing all the right things. And in my mind, or in the way we’ve learned in our culture is if you try harder. Courtney: You will get results. Well, I’ve learned with anxiety and I’ve learned with insomnia, the opposite is true. The harder you try, the more your body’s like this is not gonna work very well. So it took me a while to get to that point, but I feel like once I did there was so much more freedom and I was able to take that pressure off. Martin: One thing that you touched upon earlier was how this wasn’t just an issue at nighttime, it would also be present in the daytime as well. When you were still tangled up in this struggle, how was this affecting your days? Courtney: It consumed my thoughts. So in the morning, okay, so for example, nowadays, like if I’m having a rough day and maybe I didn’t sleep well, I will tell my husband, Hey, you know, I’m having a rough day. Courtney: I didn’t, I maybe slept, you know, four or five hours, just bear with me. But back then. I would get up in the morning and be like, telling everybody, oh my gosh, I only slept two hours tonight. Last night I only slept an hour. I didn’t sleep at all. I was telling anybody and everybody just desperate. And my entire day looked like cultivating the day to support the night. Courtney: So not drinking coffee after noon, as I mentioned. Not over exerting myself because I didn’t wanna overstimulate myself to keep myself awake at night. There were times I stayed at home more often and just kind of avoided the things that I normally enjoy. I started worrying about what I was eating. Courtney: I started worrying about like how much screen time I had. I started worrying about how much I was outside. You know, anything that you can think of. Like I was doing all of that in order to try to provide myself the best opportunity to sleep that night. And it never worked. Martin: It’s almost like sleep or insomnia was in charge of your decisions each day. Martin: And so all your actions were intended to serve sleep rather than serve you and the life you wanted to live. And so not only was this kind of maintaining that struggle because none of that stuff really had much influence on sleep anyway, but it was making things even more difficult because then you’re getting pulled away from doing the stuff that’s important. Martin: Doing the stuff that matters, like through no fault of your own because you’re a problem solver, you’re trying to fix this. But it’s just a, a really clear illustration of how easy it is to get pulled into this struggle. And to find it consuming your attention, consuming your life, and just becoming increasingly more difficult the more you try to deal with it. Courtney: Yes, exactly. And it’s, it is just, it’s crazy how you can’t, like, you can’t even help it. It’s not like you’re intentionally trying to do that. You’re just trying to survive in that moment, and that’s what happens. Unfortunately, that’s the opposite of what needed to happen. So it’s just, it’s, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Courtney: It is such a confusing and lonely and just disorienting space to be in when you’re struggling with insomnia to that level. And then on top of that, it took me a while to realize that like the, the brain fog or forgetfulness or irritability or whatever I was struggling with during the day wasn’t necessarily because of the sleep that I lost. Courtney: It was because of the anxiety that was consuming me as well. Martin: Yeah, it’s, it’s just so difficult, isn’t it? Um, You mentioned that you listened to a podcast episode where someone talked about moving away from the, trying, from trying to make sleep happen, and that kind of prompted you to explore a new approach. Martin: So as you dove into that, and now as you reflect on that journey, what were some of the changes that you made to your way of approaching sleep and responding to insomnia and other thoughts and the feelings that can come with it that helped you move away from the struggle and got you to where you are today? Courtney: So definitely the education behind your videos, like the, the early videos that you’ve posted. I found that so helpful because I remember it was like a big breath of fresh air when you said something like insomnia is not the same thing as sleep deprivation. Therefore it doesn’t have the same effects and. Courtney: The second thing was your body is wise in that it will make up the sleep that you need through deep sleep. And even if you’re not getting the full eight hours that you would like to get, your body’s going to get the sleep then it needs. So it allowed me to kind of take a step back and be like, whoa, if I just, if I just let my body do what it is designed to do, maybe I can get back on track. Courtney: And so, yeah, just the, the, the initial moments of just surrendering to that and letting go and trusting the physiologic, the physiology of my body is what helped me to kind of loosen my grip a little bit. But I will say unfortunately for, well, in my mind, unfortunately it took a lot longer than I would’ve liked it to. Courtney: I would call that week of no sleep traumatic for me. I, I don’t use that term lightly, but I say that because I’ve come to learn that our bodies keep the score of things like they remember. And there are nights even now, you know, five years later where if I, I’ll be okay for a night or two, but if I go a little bit, you know, maybe three days more of just struggling, those, those fears start to creep back in. Courtney: And my body, it’s almost like I’m back in 2020 and I’m like, oh, okay, are we going back here? And that’s where, you know, for me, it helps to get out of bed to kind of separate myself from that environment and then go back downstairs. And I found coloring before bed during those times to be really helpful. Courtney: So I’ll get like an adult coloring book with like, you know, the intricate designs and I will sit there and color and that calms my body down. But allow, it also allows those thoughts to just be there, but I don’t have to pay attention to them. Something else that has been helpful is if I’m really struggling with like thoughts, I would just get my phone out real quick and I will just journal ’em. Courtney: I will just type ’em all out and there’s been nights I can’t even finish, finish journaling before I fall asleep. So there’s different, you know, tools and things I can do now to support myself to not go back to that place. But it took me a very, very long time. And a lot of, you know, I’ve heard the term relapses or setbacks or however you look at it, you can look at it as like, okay, this isn’t just another opportunity to take care of myself. Courtney: This is another opportunity to try to implement what I’ve learned and grow and teach my brain through behavior that I can move past this point. You know, I don’t have to go back to 2020, but it, it takes a long time. At least it did for me. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. I always like to think of this different approach as being skills-based. Martin: And so like with any skill, it’s gonna take time to get better at that skill, and it’s gonna require a lot of practice, a lot of ongoing practice. And there are gonna be times where it feels that that practice is useful and helpful. And there’s gonna be times when it feels like that practice isn’t doing anything. Martin: But what matters is just continuing to get the practice in if developing this new skill. Is important to you. And I like how you shared the, the educational component of it was just so reassuring that you learned that you don’t need to intervene with sleep. Like you don’t need to do anything to make it happen. Martin: Your body wants to take care of that by itself. So that just immediately takes so much of the pressure off, right? You don’t have to do anything anymore. With that, once you’ve got that understanding, I mean, is that, is that what that felt like for you? Courtney: Oh, yes. And it’s interesting how like. And the health circle of things like, you know, sleep gets grouped in with like, if you want to eat healthier, do all these things. Courtney: If you want to exercise, do all these things. If you wanna be healthier, do all these things. And then sleep gets thrown in there, like, make sure you’re getting your seven to nine hours. Make sure you’re practicing sleep hygiene and it gets grouped in there. But that’s the only thing that doesn’t work with effort. Courtney: So it took me a long time to unlearn that, that okay, sleep’s the one thing I can just, you know, take, take my hands off of it. And I found that to be true with other people that I’ve known. It seems like the best sleepers I knew were the people that like could sleep by the, like my husband could sleep by a campfire outside, like, no, doesn’t need anything. Courtney: And so it’s those people that don’t even try that seem to sleep the best. Martin: Yeah. And that’s another great insight, isn’t it? Is just looking to what other people are doing. Especially those people that seem to have no issue or concern around sleep. They get great nights almost every night. What are you doing to make that happen? Martin: You ask that question, you kind of get this dumbfounded look right as they try and figure out what they’re doing, because the answer is they’re not doing anything. They’re just setting time aside for sleep to happen, and that’s it. So perhaps all this messaging around sleep, you know, get seven to nine hours of sleep. Martin: Maybe it should be make time for sleep, you know, make sufficient time for sleep. The issue is the people who are reading that kind of advice are the people who are struggling with sleep and then, and people with insomnia are often allotting even more time than necessary for sleep. And then setting themselves up for more wakefulness at night. Martin: So it’s, it again, it’s just so easy through no fault of our own, to just get pulled into this struggle with the kind of messaging around sleep that is predominant. Courtney: Yes. Yep. And then you add in the, the, like the fear behind it. Like the fear-based, if you don’t do this, this will happen. So then you feel even worse. Courtney: Like if I don’t, if I don’t get sleep soon, something bad’s gonna happen to me. So that’s why like during that week, I remember at one point I told my husband, I’m like, I just want them to admit me to the hospital. Check me in, send me up to, you know, the mental health floor wherever I need to go, and just, can they just knock me out? Courtney: Can I just sleep? Just to get, you know, get back into sleeping again. Because I thought if I don’t do that, I’m, my health is gonna self-destruct. Like this is harmful to my body, which puts you into fight or flight even more. And then, yeah, just the shame of, like I said, like walking out at night and looking around at the world and it’s dark and everybody’s sleeping and you’re like, what’s wrong with me? Courtney: Like, something’s wrong with me, that I’m not like everybody else, that I can’t sleep. And so that’s a whole nother component to this is those thoughts that creep in when you do lay down at night. And for the longest time I was just trying to control them. Like, don’t think about that. Think about something else. Courtney: Like try to be calmed down. I was trying to breathe, you know, do all the things and I learned, you know, through, you know, your resources that just letting those thoughts be there and let ’em float away, you know, just don’t get too over involved with them. That can relax your body. So you can go to. And then, yeah, another thing that was kind of counterintuitive was the sleep restriction, but that I think had the biggest impact for me is because I was trying to allot aot of time for sleep, but I was going to bed at like nine o’clock and I’d lay there for an hour and a half and that would just increase the anxiety to where I’m like, okay, what’s the minimum sleep I can get? Courtney: And so I would go to sleep at like, or I’d go up at like 10 or 10 30 when I noticed my eyes were actually drowsy and I would lay there and some nights I would fall right asleep. If I didn’t, I got back up and came downstairs. But that is what helped me to actually be tired enough to go to bed. But again, the message is, well, you have to, you know, you have to make sure you’re getting enough sleep, so you have to go to bed early. Courtney: And it just, it creates such a mess for people. I, ugh, I just feel bad for anyone going through it right now because I know I, I’m not too far removed to forget what that feels like. Martin: Absolutely. And it comes down against that theme of the more we chase after sleep, the more elusive it becomes. Martin: You mentioned that one thing that was really helpful for you was to open up a little bit more to whatever thoughts and feelings were showing up compared to trying to fight them, avoid them, resist them, control them, reason with them or anything else with them. And I think the, for a lot of us, this idea of opening up to what can be really scary, difficult, and uncomfortable thoughts and feelings can itself feel really scary, difficult, and uncomfortable. Martin: What was your experience like with that? What showed up for you when you first heard of this approach of opening up to this, these really difficult thoughts and feelings? Courtney: Oh my goodness. I just, I instantly flashed back to just laying there in bed with all these crazy thoughts in my head, but making time to allow that. Courtney: And I just remember thinking like, oh my goodness, if I do this, like, I’m gonna end up even worse. Like, I’m gonna end up even further into insomnia if I allow all this, all these feelings, and I don’t do something to try to calm them down. And it, it makes so much sense because as I’ve learned with anxiety slash insomnia, it’s that the more you try to control things, the worse it gets. Courtney: Because your anxious response is to get you to do something like it. Your body thinks it’s in danger. So the more you respond with trying to grab a hold of it and like do something, it’s gonna get worse. Where if you just kind of say, all right, I’m okay. I’m gonna lay here as uncomfortable as I am. Courtney: This is terrible, but I’m just gonna lay here and let them be. I’m gonna let these feelings be here over time they do pass. So it took, again, it takes time. I still have to practice that, but I’m much better at it than I was. But it does take time. Martin: it is definitely an ongoing practice. I think to get better skilled in experiencing the full range of human thoughts and feelings with less resistance making space for them to exist. I’m curious to hear from you what that first night or what the first few nights were like when you tried to practice this new approach of making space for that stuff to show up compared to that default response of resistance. Courtney: So it was. It was very, again, I would say a rollercoaster in those hours of like, you know, 10 30 to seven or whatever, I was in bed. Like initially I would be like, okay, this is uncomfortable, but I’m gonna try this. And I would try it and I would fit, I, I would feel myself relaxed and I would calm down. And then a new thought that would really jar me would come in or a new feeling. Courtney: And I’d be like, and then I’d have to do it again. So it was constantly, constantly grabbing a hold of those thoughts and being like, okay, you know, I’m just gonna let this be here. I don’t have to believe this, you know, this is what my body’s feeling, but my brain. And it helped for me to separate myself a little bit or create some distance between my, my identity and my brain. Courtney: Like my brain is the one, you know, churning out all these crazy thoughts. ’cause my body doesn’t feel safe right now. And that’s okay. That’s okay. But I am safe. I’m just gonna lay here. That would work and then I’d have to do it again. So it was a lot of rep repetition over and over. It wasn’t like a one and done, like tonight’s the night, I’m gonna challenge my thoughts or allow them to be there, or you know, breathe and calm down and I’m good. Courtney: It was repetition over and over again. Martin: That’s where I think a lot of us can give up because we can still have that, whether it’s, maybe it’s a little bit hidden away in the background or more of a covert goal of I’m practicing this in order to get rid of these thoughts and these feelings. So every time they kind of pop back you’re like, ah, this isn’t working. Martin: So I’m curious to hear from you with that very common experience of, I opened up to the thoughts, they felt like they were starting to lose their power. I got a little taste of how this could be helpful, but then again, another one would come in and I’ll be back to square one again. What prompted or motivated you to keep up with that practice to feel as though this was an approach that you wanted to commit to and develop skill in? Courtney: I would see incremental progress. Like I would see little glimmers of hope that I was working my way out of this. So, for example, like I said, with the emails, like I did see through the, the email practices I was putting into place, I would see incremental progress there. And I would do that with the thoughts as well. Courtney: And then there was a point where I, I just kept going back to, well, I can’t go back to the way it was because that got me nowhere. So there were weak moments where I’m like, I just needed, you know, I need to go back to trying harder, trying all the things, or maybe I should try different sleep medication. Courtney: And I would be like, well that didn’t get you anywhere. That’s not getting to the. So I think I would love to say it was this big, profound moment of like, breakthrough, but it really was just incremental progress that I saw in myself. Like I’ll never forget the one night I was sitting on the couch and I was drowsy because I had implemented sleep restriction and I was color, I was doing something calming before bed. Courtney: My husband and I had the TV on. I was just coloring and my eyes got drowsy. And I was like, normally at this time I’m getting hypervigilant. Like I’ll be tired during the day, but then nighttime comes and I’m wide awake. So when I got drowsy, that gave me hope. And so there were more things like that that happened along the way. Courtney: And then I remember nights where the thoughts weren’t as bad and I was like, okay, here’s my next step. So I, I saw little bits of progress along the way that kept me going. Martin: Yeah, you got like little hints that this was an approach that held some promise. You started to feel more sleepy as the night approached or as bedtime approached compared to more alert. Martin: And with those thoughts and those feelings, they were still showing up. But every now and then, perhaps they felt a little bit less powerful or a little bit less influential. Martin: We have to fight, we have to put effort into sleep. What medication can we explore? But you harnessed your experience. You drew on your superpower of self-reflection and your experience told you that that stuff doesn’t work. So. Your brain is suggesting that’s a route we should carry on pursuing. But you recognize it’s doing that ’cause it’s doing this job. Martin: It’s doing its job of looking out for you. But you knew from experience that that approach wasn’t getting you closer to where you wanted to be, so you wanted to stay committed to this approach of less resistance and building that skill and experiencing all this stuff with less of a struggle. Courtney: Exactly. Courtney: Yes. And I think when you mentioned the struggle, like my laying, laying in bed at night had become a place of struggle and just it felt like I was battling all night with my mind. And so I tried to make a point of not making my bed that place anymore. Courtney: So when I’m having those nights, I get outta bed and I come downstairs and I’ll journal or color or what have you, and try to do all that there, and then go back to bed when it’s calmer. Martin: So you withdrew from the battleground when you found yourself getting pulled into that fight. And this is another thing that some people can struggle with because they’re like, should I get out of bed? Martin: Should I stay in bed? And my answer is always, well, it’s really up to you. It doesn’t matter if you stay in bed or get out of bed. What matters is, are you engaged in a battle? And if you are, how might you withdraw from that battle? So you might want to color or read or watch TV in the living room, or you might want to do that in bed. Martin: It really doesn’t matter. What matters is you’re awake and you’re not fighting. You’re doing something other than battling away, struggling more, making things more difficult. Courtney: Yes. And that, you know, there’s that. I’ve read that somewhere. There’s a rule, you know, you don’t use your bed for anything but sleep because you don’t wanna create an association. Courtney: Well, on good nights, I can color in my bed, I can watch a show. I can read and I, there’s nights I can’t even get through a paragraph and I set it down, I’m out so I can, I can do activities in my bed and not associate it with anything. Courtney: But the night that, like you said, it is a struggle, I gotta get out of bed. I gotta go do that somewhere else. Because that is part of, I, how I think that that habit became created with insomnia is I would lay down at night in instant panic because my body was like, well this is, this is associated with the panic place. Courtney: You know what I mean? So that was a learning curve too. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. It, listening to you share that experience, really, you kind of just played around with some of this, this stuff, right? You gave it a try with an open and a curious mind. And with this understanding. You’re thinking, I’m just gonna see what I take from this. Martin: What am I gonna learn from this? Because we’re always gonna learn something from what we do. And so you’ve really learned what was a helpful way forward for you, and that kind of gave you that motivation or that impetus to keep you moving in that direction. So to, to bring this together, what you, what you’ve shared as the most helpful things was the educational component. Martin: You know, really understanding where insomnia comes from, what keeps it alive. And in short, it’s really all of our attempts to get rid of it. Ironically what keeps it alive. And you also learned how easy it is to get drawn into the struggle. And so when you are struggling, it’s not because you’re broken. Martin: It’s just because what you are understandably doing is you’re just kind of pumping insomnia full of oxygen in effect. You know, it is just kind of feeding the beast through no fault of your own. You found it really helpful to go to bed when you were sleepy, like finding it hard to stay awake rather than going to bed based on what time it was at night. Martin: And that led to less time awake or less time awake for potential struggle. You found it helpful to be aware or to cultivate an awareness of when you were struggling at night, when you were getting pulled into that battleground and with that awareness, you then chose to respond in a different way. So instead of putting effort into sleep fighting or avoiding thoughts and feelings, you’d do some coloring or you’d do some reading and you found it helpful most of the time to get outta bed to do that. Martin: And you found it helpful to practice opening up to whatever thoughts, whatever feelings are showing up, even though you might not want them to show up, there they are. You’re acknowledging them and you’re just allowing them to come and go to flow, to be an observer of them. And one way you did that, that you shared was you would just journal them, you would write them down, not as a way to kind of reason with them or change them, unless I’m wrong, in which case please correct me. Martin: But just as a way to acknowledge them. And it was almost a way that you were putting into practice this idea of opening up to the thoughts and feelings, just writing them down. Courtney: Yes. Yep. And I will say, yeah, it was both like there were nights I would journal just to get the thoughts outta my head. ’cause then they’re not spiraling while I’m laying there. Courtney: And there were nights that I would have old fears come back, like the old thoughts that I would write them down and then challenge them. Like for example. I feel like if I don’t sleep, I won’t be able to function tomorrow. And then I would be like, well, actually that’s not true because you have had many good days on, two hours, no hours of sleep. Courtney: And so for example, like a month ago, I had the first all night, or I’ll call it, you know, I was all night. I haven’t had one of those nights in years, but my husband and I were leaving for the airport that morning, I think at three 30. And so I was wired from packing and tra we were getting ready to travel. Courtney: I knew I, we had our flight we had to catch. So I gave myself a lot of compassion, like, this makes sense for you. Like, you know, this is, you’re about to travel. It’s the first time we left our boys at home. So there was a lot there. Like it made sense why my body would react that way. And yeah, you know, I, I think maybe I napped on the plane. Courtney: I don’t remember, but I tried not to pay too much attention to it and. Again, it was the first all nighter in years that I’ve had where I didn’t sleep all night long, but it was okay. Like I, we got there, we had our full day. I think I, we came back and I did take like an hour and a half nap or something, and then we went on with our evening and that night my body made up the sleep. Courtney: So I can have really good days, like if you’re struggling with insomnia, you can have normal days, you can function fine even if you don’t get sleep. So back to the thoughts, there was a lot of thoughts that I was able to challenge with the educational component that I found through your videos, which was very helpful. Martin: Yeah, I’m, I’m glad you mentioned that there are still times when sleep isn’t perfect or exactly as you want it to happen, because when we’re struggling, we might have that as our goal. You know, we just have a great night of sleep every single night. But the truth is that no human being has a great night of sleep every single night. Martin: The difference now is when sleep doesn’t go as you might want it to. It’s not this huge focus of your attention. It’s not something that creates a huge, difficult struggle and pulls you away from the life you want to live. Now it’s more like water off of a duck’s back. You know, it comes and it goes, and then you are moving on from it. Martin: It really has just lost all of its power and influence over you. And I do want to emphasize, you used the phrase self-compassion. And I think that’s huge because when we are struggling, we can be so hard on ourselves and mean to ourselves, and that doesn’t make things any easier. So giving ourselves some grace, some kindness can be immensely powerful. Martin: You discovered that thoughts are thoughts. They’re not more than thoughts. They’re not less than thoughts. They’re thoughts. So they’re not facts. Sometimes they might be true, but sometimes not. They’re not a reflection on who you are as a person. Martin: They’re not always an accurate prediction for the future. They’re not always an accurate reflection of the past. They’re thoughts. And so by listening to your thoughts being more open to them, it kind of came with that bonus that you were able to recognize, Hey, some of these thoughts aren’t even true. Martin: This thought is telling me that tomorrow is gonna be a disaster, but hang on a minute. The other day I had no sleep and I had a great day, or I had a good day, or an okay day. So you notice that with that acceptance, there’s a reminder that thoughts are nothing more or nothing less than thoughts, and you’ve got that separation too between your thoughts and your body. Martin: One thing you shared with us a little bit earlier was that as you practiced opening up, especially at first when it feels really scary, like what’s gonna happen if I start allowing these thoughts and these feelings to come in? It feels really uncomfortable. It can feel more and more intense. Then something happens, it kind of reaches a peak at some point, and then it kind of flows back down again. Martin: And you realize that even though it can feel really scary, really threatening your body is lying in the bed or on the couch in a safe place. So even though it feels very unsafe physically, you are safe. So with that openness and acknowledgement, you also got that reminder or that awareness that your thoughts are separate from your body. Martin: There was that detachment there, and that in turn can reduce some of their power and influence too. Courtney: Yes, and that’s something like I think with anxiety in general or insomnia, is like for someone like me who is, like I said, a recovering perfectionist type, the type A. You can have the bar set really high to where your idea of progress or success is. Courtney: I will never have a rough night again. I will not struggle with, you know, scary thoughts. My thoughts will balance out. I will be peaceful all the time, and that’s just not realistic, nor is that life and so much of our anxiety or other emotions or our body just responding to life. And so life is not perfect and that would be my encouragement to anyone struggling with it is maybe lower the bar a little bit. Courtney: I had to lower it many times to where, like I mentioned earlier, my idea of progress was just when my eyes got drowsy, like nowhere near a full night of sleep. But I was just happy with that. And so you can build on that versus trying to get your thoughts to be what you want them to be. Get your body to do what you want it to do all the time. Courtney: Because then what if that’s your standard? What happens when you do have a rough night, a couple, you know, down the road or a couple months, a couple years, for example? How are you gonna respond to that? So I even had that challenge last night. I had, you know, some troubling thoughts pop into my head and at first I was like, oh geez. Courtney: And I was really kind of dwelling on ’em, and I’m like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Just because I’m thinking it doesn’t mean it’s true, you know, separate a little bit. So it’s still a practice. But that I think is a huge part of insomnia is the thoughts that, that come in during those late nights when you’re, you feel like you are the only one awake in the world or in your neighborhood or wherever, and it’s dark and you are alone with the loud, intense thoughts and you just feel like you’re, you’re crazy. Courtney: You’re nuts because you can’t move past it. And really, like you said, you’re not broken. It’s just the dynamic of the situation. But you can separate and you can challenge them or write them down and. It will peak and it will, it will pass At some point. It will pass. Courtney: In the beginning, and I’m sure anyone who has struggled with this, can attest to this, that the beginning of anxiety is such a lonely place. And you feel so alone, like I mentioned, but then you start to hear from other people, especially on your channel. And it, it’s mind boggling to me how. Courtney: Insomnia starts and progresses is almost like a formula. Like we’re not alone because it almost plays out identically person to person, regardless of their job, where they live, if they’re a parent or not, if they’re married or not, if they’re male, female. It’s amazing to me how similar everyone’s experiences. Courtney: So you’re, it’s not, it’s not you, it’s the insomnia, if that makes sense. Or the response to it. Martin: One thing that you touched upon was how we’re measuring progress as we’re on this journey away from the struggle. Martin: Because for as long as we are measuring progress on sleep or what thoughts and feelings are showing up, we might be setting the stage for more struggle because our own experience probably tells us that we can’t directly control those things. So if we’re measuring how well we’re doing against something we can’t control there’s just so much potential to still be in that quicksand and not be free from the struggle. Martin: Looking for action based markers of progress can be more helpful. Like, am I doing more of the stuff that matters? Are the decisions I’m making more related to what I want to be doing or how I want to be protecting sleep or preparing for sleep? There’s so many potential markers of progress out there, but focusing on action based markers of progress can be really helpful because it keeps us focused on what is in our control. Martin: Which are our actions. Courtney: Yes. I remember like in the thick of it, there were days where I had said that, you know, the sleep consumed my thoughts. And I, I was walking around like a zombie in this in the sense of, all I thought about was I didn’t sleep last night. I probably won’t sleep tonight. And just like feeling so jealous of all my friends and family, like they’re sleeping with no problem. Courtney: Like, this is not my life right now. This is horrible. And now I, there’ll be nights I don’t sleep well and it’s like, oh yeah, I forgot I didn’t sleep that great last night. Okay. You know? It’s not always like that, but more often it is. And like I can look at my day and be like, oh, I had a great day. I laughed a lot. Courtney: I had a lot of joy. The weather was beautiful. I exercised, you know, I had a great day despite what my night looked like. Martin: There’s just so much in your life beyond sleep. Sleep is still a part of your life, but it’s not the main part or a huge part of your life anymore. It’s just one thing of many things. Martin: How long would you say it took for you to practice this new approach of less resistance, less effort, not trying to control sleep, thoughts, feelings, to get you to a place where you felt that you left the struggle behind, that you can now live your life independently of sleep, and even in the presence of whatever thoughts and feelings might choose to show up? Courtney: So let me see. For me, I think my full. Severe anxiety struggle was about two and a half to three years. So I had that, you know, under my belt before implementing these, these strategies. I wanna say it probably took me about six months, give or take to, to where I, I didn’t feel burdened by it anymore. Courtney: Now I will say the nights or the episodes I would have where I would have a couple nights in a row, I would start to get a little weary again and a little doubtful and a little nervous, but I would get through those. So despite those, or setting those to the side, I would say about six months. Martin: I’m really glad that you emphasized that there was still ups and downs along the way. It doesn’t mean that over the course of that six months, every day or every night was incrementally better than the previous ones. There were sometimes when things felt really good and other times where it felt like, oh, I’m getting pulled back into the struggle again. Martin: But what mattered was you just kept on with that practice. You acknowledged what was happening. Maybe you were being a bit kinder to yourself when you noticed that maybe you were getting pulled back into the struggle again and just refocusing your attention on acting in a way that you wanted to act in response, acting in a way that you knew was gonna be moving you closer or in the direction that you wanted to be heading. Courtney: Yes, yes. I remember in the thick of it too, like wondering how long it was gonna take me to feel better. And I remember hearing someone say, oh, it takes as long as it takes. And I was so frustrated by that. ’cause I’m like, I just want a number. Like, is this gonna be like a year? Is it like six months? Like what am I? Courtney: But it does, I mean, everybody’s different. Your body handles it differently. Like mine remembers very vividly what happened. So I, that I wouldn’t say presents a challenge, but like I said, I have to be more mindful than someone else might. So everybody’s different. But yeah, it’s just keeping in mind where you want to go and keep. Courtney: Keep going through what you’ve learned and holding close to the va, what you value about your life, and allowing the space and the compassion for the upsets or, you know, setbacks or whatever you would like to call those. Martin: How were you able to be patient with yourself when no doubt you wanted progress to happen like immediately, which is human nature. How did you practice being patient and just staying committed to the practice? Courtney: Yes, that was very challenging. Even with anxiety in general, I still struggle with being patient with myself initially because I do, like I said, I have unfortunately high standards for myself that I always have to lower. And so the nights of, you know, bad sleep or a really anxious day, I just constantly had to be like, okay, you know, I can’t, I can’t control this. Courtney: I just have to accept it. I will get through this. Like this will pass. Just constantly refocusing. But yeah, it was very hard because there’s so many days, even now with different things, I’m like, man, I’m still struggling with this aspect of something, or I haven’t moved past this yet. And again, that’s the initial response. Courtney: But then I have to, you know, kind of be mindful of that and respond with, I’m growing. Life is not perfect. Progress is not linear. And that kind of helps with the patience part. But it is very challenging, I will say that. Martin: So it sounds like when you felt impatient you reminded yourself that you are on a journey. Martin: You are learning that you are growing that you’re heading in the direction you want to be heading. And on any journey there’s gonna be ups and downs. What matters is just continuing on the journey if it feels like that journey matters. Courtney: Yes. One thing that like was frustrating for me is like, I would hear different success stories and of anything, like, you hear success stories or you read about ’em, and people don’t always share that they’re still working through things. Courtney: Sometimes it’s just like, oh, I struggle with this thing now I’m here on the other side of it, and life is great. So when you are like me and you’re still working through different things, it’s hard not to see that as a sign of failure and understand that that is the normal, it’s normal to ebb and flow and you know, like you said, sleep is not perfect. Courtney: It can’t be controlled, so you can’t gauge your progress off of that. Martin: Yeah, that’s a good reminder that we are never gonna reach this perfect end point moment in our life where everything is perfect for the rest of time. When we’re struggling, we often feel like, if only I can get rid of this one obstacle, then everything will be perfect. Martin: But the reality is once one obstacle goes away at least one more is gonna show up because life is a journey and that journey involves many obstacles. Courtney, I’m curious what would you say an average night is like for you these days? Courtney: Oh, I would say most nights I probably, I don’t know, I wander upstairs around like 9 30, 9 45, you know, and then I’ll get in bed and my husband will, I have chat real quick, and then he passes out within 30 seconds, which is amazing. Courtney: But I will grab my Kindle, read. It depends how tired I am. Read maybe a paragraph, maybe a page, and I’m out. Around 10 o’clock, 10 30, and I get up about six or six 30. And yeah, sleep. Sleep pretty good. I would say. Martin: I think what really stands out for me there is that there’s no kind of mention of, well, I come home I, I turn all the lights down in my house, I make sure the thermostat is set to a certain temperature. Martin: I put on some blue blocking glasses. I drink some warm milk. You know, there’s, there’s just nothing there. It was just, I wander up to bed I talk to my husband for a bit, I read and then I get outta bed in the morning. There was just like nothing else. There’s none of that effort. None of that trying, none of the, the rules, none of the rituals. Courtney: Yeah. And I’ll say, you know, there are a couple, you know, nights here and there where like recently I was anxious in general about different things, and I was like. Struggling with some night sweats and just feeling on edge and maybe some vivid dreams. And so I got up and came downstairs and just got some water and sat for a minute and went back up to bed. Courtney: And those are the nights that, like I said, I just had to be more mindful that, you know, maybe through my anxiety, my body’s trying to tell me to slow down or pay attention to something. But it’s not an indication now of like, oh, something, you’re gonna go back there. You’re doing something wrong. It’s because I know most nights are like what I just told you prior to that. Martin: You’ve got a normal human brain that’s gonna generate anxiety and all different thoughts and feelings from time to time. Now they’re just not pulling you into so much of a struggle. You’ve got that skill in your back pocket now to kind of acknowledge them to make space for them. Martin: To be kind to yourself and to not feel as though you have to do anything with them because they are thoughts and they are feelings. And ultimately you get to choose how to respond to them. Courtney: Yeah. And that’s something that is super beneficial about this insomnia journey is not only have I learned to how to relate to my thoughts at nighttime, but during the day, ’cause there’s, you know, during the day I’ll just be going through my day like anybody else would. Courtney: And I’m sure anyone can relate when you get a crazy thought that pops into your head and you know, before it could really jar me and it could cause anxiety or something like that. But now I’m just like, oh, okay, that’s just a thought. Like, doesn’t mean it’s true. So the benefit I think of this insomnia journey is it can benefit all areas of your life. Courtney: You learn some skills that can apply to everything. Martin: As you become less of an opponent to certain thoughts and feelings, they become less distracting. So they can show up during the day. You are able to just quickly acknowledge them and refocus on where you are, what you’re doing, what you want to be doing, rather than, you know, the magnifying glass comes out and you’ve got some, a pair of tweezers and you’re kind of looking through that thought and it’s just the whole focus of your attention. Martin: And you miss out on the whole world around you. You’re missing out on where you are and what you’re doing. Courtney: Yes. Yep. Exactly. Same as like the insomnia monster, if you will. The more attention you give to it, the more it grows. And same with those thoughts that pop into your head. The more attention you give to them, the more they can get, they can really grab a hold of you and then you’re dwelling on them. Courtney: I just remembered, I never shared how I was able to get off the sleep medication because that can be a huge source of shame and like struggle is the sleep medications themselves. So coming from someone who was on three and I, and that was just at one time, like there was a lot of adjustments, made a lot of changes. Courtney: What did it for me was tolerating those uncomfortable thoughts because I told myself, okay. As I try to decrease my dosage and wean off of this, this is gonna create some really uncomfortable feelings and thoughts and I, it’s okay. This is expected. So it did. And as I expected that to happen, I was kind of prepared for it and I was able to sit with that and over time it got a lot better and I was able to challenge the thoughts that like would say, well you still need sleep medication. Courtney: And I would be like, well no. ’cause I took half a dose last night and I slept really good. So that was huge for me, was able to get off of those through challenging and tolerating the thoughts. And thankfully I haven’t had, I haven’t had to take a sleep aid in, gosh, three or four years I think. So it’s possible if you feel completely like gripped by sleep medication, it is completely possible to get off of it and sleep well. Martin: I’m really glad you touched upon that because we talked about so much good stuff. I feel that that kind of got a little bit lost because you were telling us right at the start that you just felt trapped in this life of medication dependency almost. It felt like you had to take this medication even though you knew it really wasn’t giving you the kind of results you wanted, but you felt like you had no alternative to it. Martin: So was it a case that you got some practice in first with this approach of lowering that resistance to being awake at night, lowering the resistance to the thoughts and the feelings, and then as you started to feel as though you were building that skill, then you started to tackle them moving away from the medication. Martin: Like what, what was the start of that journey like for you of moving away from the medication? Courtney: I had enough self-awareness then to know, okay, I need to get some of these practices under my belt and be, you know, comfortable with them before I try to make a big change like that. Because as I mentioned, there were nights I would try to think about, okay, maybe I could not take that medicine tonight, or maybe I could decrease the dose and instantly I would be like panicking. Courtney: And I was like, okay, okay, so let’s tackle this first. And then once I realized like those strategies were working and I, the one night I was feeling drowsy before I even took my medicine, that was an indication, okay, I don’t need the sleep medication to induce drowsiness. So that was the first step and then I was able to build on that later on. Courtney: And then I think what also really helped was one of your videos talking about how or I had read, maybe you shared it, there was a study that talks about how sleep medications what on average give you 40 extra minutes of sleep or something like that. I had read, it wasn’t even anything significant and I’m like, why am I taking this medicine if I’m trying, if on average it helps you gain an extra, you know, however many minutes of sleep and I’m awake all night anyway. Courtney: So it was just a logical, like, this is not actually helping me. So it was that combined with the, the step taking the building on each step that I took. Martin: Was it a long process for you of moving away from the medication or did it happen quite quickly? Courtney: It was a very gentle, slow, prog, slow process for me, and I knew it would have to be just because of how, like I, how I handled change in general. Courtney: But especially with that, I was like, Ugh, I’m just gonna give myself a lot of grace and a lot of time and yeah. Yeah, I was able to get off of it, but for me it took a while. Martin: Did you have that temptation as you were moving away from the medication, reducing your dose, that you’re starting to feel more confident and, yeah, I don’t need this medication to make sleep happen and then may be a really difficult night shows up and then your problem solving brain fires up and it’s like, well, we need to go back to the medication. Martin: Was, was that something you experienced and if it was, how did you respond? Courtney: Yes, those old thoughts would creep back in and I would be like, oh, you know, ready to go back to that. And I had to challenge that. Like, no, this didn’t help you before. You will get through this. You don’t need them, you don’t actually need them to sleep. Courtney: So those were the thoughts that I would have to challenge. I couldn’t just, you know, write ’em down like I would actually have to challenge them. But yeah, much like my body remembers what happened, the old thoughts are very much there to, so I would have to. Re just be, make, be mindful of that, that it’s gonna be, it’s gonna take a while. Courtney: My body remembers that, and therefore those thoughts might come back again. Martin: You reminded yourself of that conflict that can happen between our problem solving brain and our experience, maybe like the wise mind perhaps. So your problem solving brain was like, no, we need to go back to the medication. Martin: And it’s so easy to listen to that problem solving brain because it serves us really well in so many areas of life. But not all the time. And you drew on your experience and you reminded yourself that, you know, I’ve got this bank of evidence here that tells me that I don’t need medication to make sleep happen. Martin: That sleep can happen without it. With less of it, I can feel drowsy. So there’s what my problem solving brain is saying isn’t always true in effect. And it was helpful for you to remind yourself of that. What does it feel like now that you’ve eliminated that medication from your life and that you are sleeping and living your life independently of that? Courtney: Oh man. It, it’s just so freeing to be out of, out of that place. I didn’t ever think I was gonna get out of, I thought once I’m dependent on medication, like I, I don’t even know how I would be able to get out of this, this place, but I did. And also, like, it just, it’s so much more trust for my body. Like my body knows what to do and I can just, I can trust it to do that. Courtney: So that has been cool that I don’t need to intervene. So again, a lot of freedom. Martin: Courtney, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening to this and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, that maybe they are the one person that’s truly broken, they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. Martin: What would you say to them? Courtney: Like if they’re already watching this, they’re already on your channel. Like just try to stick to these videos and drown out anything else, because that can be very confusing and you can easily fall back into, well, maybe I need to try that supplement, or maybe my sleep problems related to that. Courtney: Like just keep it focused on the educational content here, as well as the success stories that you’ve shared on here. Because like we said, you know, it’s a common theme through everyone that has struggled with insomnia and we all have come to the same place maybe a little bit differently, but we’re essentially on the other side of that big battle that we had. Courtney: So that should give people hopefully a lot of hope that. There’s, this is where the space is to heal from insomnia. So try to drown out other advice or articles or videos. You know, it can get very confusing and it can make you feel a lot worse. You are not alone by any means, and as many people have been where you’re at, I have as well, and I, I thought I was the exception. Courtney: I didn’t ever think that I would be where I’m at today with how much medication I was on, how many doctor’s appointments I had to go to, how much sleep I had lost. I, I was in such a dark pit that I didn’t think I would ever get out. And if you’re willing to give yourself time and have self-compassion, you will get out. Courtney: And, and don’t feel bad if you know you’re someone like me where you, you, your, you know, your prayer life isn’t working or you feel like it’s not working, or all the supplements you’re taking are not working. It’s not you. And. It’s okay to be there. Like it’s okay to not be okay, but you do have a lot of hope in this entire channel here that you’ve provided and the videos, the testimonies is proof that there’s hope and you can be one of the people talking about your story. Courtney: So hanging there, it’s, it’s awful. It’s really, really hard. Like, I, I don’t want to glaze over that. I wouldn’t wish insomnia on anybody. It is a very, very dark and scary place. But you, there is so much hope. Martin: Thanks again for the time you’ve taken out for your day to come onto the podcast and to share your experience, your insights, your journey, your transformation. Martin: I just know is gonna help a lot of people. Courtney, so thank you. Courtney: Thank you for having me. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Please share this episode!

Before insomnia entered Abbie’s life, sleep was effortless. She’d never had to think about it. She fell asleep quickly, stayed asleep, and moved through her days without giving sleep much attention at all. It was simply there — reliable and unremarkable. That changed in the fall of 2021 after a short illness. One sleepless night turned into another, and before long, sleep became the center of everything. What started as confusion quickly grew into anxiety and pressure. Each night felt like a test. Each morning felt heavier. As the nights passed, fear took over — fear of being awake, fear of not functioning, fear that something was permanently wrong. Like many people facing insomnia, Abbie did what made sense. She tried to fix it. She went to bed earlier and earlier. She canceled plans. She followed strict routines. She tried supplements. She searched for answers. And each attempt came with hope — followed by disappointment when sleep didn’t show up. Over time, life began to shrink around sleep, and the struggle only intensified. Days became just as difficult as nights. Her mind stayed locked on one question: Am I going to sleep tonight? Anxiety filled the hours. Dread set in as evening approached. Even when she was exhausted, her heart raced and her thoughts refused to slow down. What began to shift things wasn’t a new fix — it was a change in how she responded. Abbie started noticing that withdrawing from life wasn’t helping. Staying in bed wasn’t restoring her energy. And fighting her thoughts wasn’t bringing relief. Slowly, she began doing something different: showing up to her life even when sleep felt uncertain. She experimented with staying up later instead of trying to force sleep. She returned to the gym. She made plans. She studied. She lived — without waiting for sleep to cooperate. And over time, something important changed. Sleep became less of a battleground. Her thoughts lost their grip. And trust — in herself and in her body — started to rebuild. In this conversation, Abbie shares what it was like to move through insomnia, how her relationship with sleep changed, and why easing the struggle — not fixing sleep — made all the difference. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay. Abbie, thank you so much for taking the time out for your day to come onto the podcast. Abbie: Yeah, thanks for having me. Great to be here. Martin: Let’s start right at the very beginning. When did your issues with sleep first begin and what do you feel caused those issues with sleep? Abbie: Yeah. It was fall 2021, so like almost four years ago, which is crazy because it feels so vivid in my memories. Abbie: But I had gotten sick, I think it was like the cold or a flu or something, just like a normal sick, and I wasn’t able to sleep which was really jarring for me at the time because prior to this sort of period of insomnia, I had been a really great sleeper. Like I, had my whole life I had basically like. Abbie: I never really thought much about sleep. I fell asleep immediately. I stayed asleep. Yeah I had gotten sick, I wasn’t able to sleep. And then I remember the next night I was like, okay, tonight’s the night like, I have to sleep. So I was already, like putting that pressure on sleep it has to be tonight. Abbie: And so that kind of started, I would say like the feedback loop of okay, I am stressed about sleep. The more I stress about sleep, the less I’m gonna sleep. Yeah, I think I was also dealing with just like a period of more heightened anxiety in my life at the time too. I was applying to graduate school and taking, the admissions tests for that and so maybe it was just like, kinda like the perfect storm. Abbie: I was like, okay, if I’m gonna get better, I need to sleep. I think it was also like, this was the first time in my life I had experienced a sleepless night. And so it was just like, that was really uncomfortable, like laying there awake all night. The longer you’re awake, the more stressed you’re getting, your heart’s kind of beating fast. Abbie: Like the whole thing was just uncomfortable and new for me. So I was like I don’t want that to happen again. I better sleep tonight. Abbie: I feel like each night I wasn’t sleeping, I was just getting more and more anxious about sleeping. I think I was like a week in at that point and I had probably slept two hours each night and I was like, what is going on? Abbie: Am I ever gonna sleep again? And yeah, I mean it was, I would fall asleep around four or 5:00 AM and then be back up again at 6:00 AM for work. And yeah it was just super uncomfortable and yeah, anyone who’s. Insomnia knows how stressful it is. Abbie: It was like, every hour that passes, I’m like, okay, I gotta get up in what, in three hours, two hours, one hour. And then, just this intense desire to stay in bed in the mornings. I think to see if you’re tired and you haven’t slept, and you’re like, all I wanna do is stay in bed. Abbie: I do think, like looking back, I think having my work routine and schedule was like really hard at the time, but really beneficial in some ways because I couldn’t just sit in bed and all day and try to go back to bed and I had to get up and get out and go to work. And that was also ended up being, I think, a good distraction. Abbie: At least for like the eight hours a day I was working. I wasn’t thinking about sleep. I think that was positive. Martin: What about that day, those days when you didn’t have any work obligations? Were things different then? Abbie: Yeah, I would definitely I think early on I would definitely, stay in bed all morning, like trying to quote unquote rest or see if maybe I could eventually fall asleep. Abbie: And just like really dreading the day because I had slept it all and I was like, Ugh, another day I’m gonna be really tired all day. It’s gonna be so bad. Like kind of those typical anxious, catastrophic thoughts of I just, I don’t wanna do the day. Like I didn’t get any sleep. So if there was, if I didn’t have work and nothing was like forcing me outta bed, I think it was, it would’ve been hard. Martin: So at this point. Things are really difficult as you’ve just described. And when we face difficulties in life or problems in life, we look to solve them. Martin: So what was your next step? What other things were you trying to do to get your sleep back on track and get yourself back to where you used to be? Abbie: Yeah, I think I was trying everything. One of the things I started doing early on was like, canceling all my plans and I would get off work and, as soon as I was done with work like the dread and the anxiety about sleeping that night would kick in. Abbie: And so I would be like, okay, I gotta go home. I gotta make dinner and I gotta get in bed. So I was like, my bedtime was becoming earlier and earlier even though I just, I wasn’t tired. And I think I was also pretty much trying every sleep supplement out there that there is like about a month in, I think I’d seen my doctor and she had prescribed me I think it was like Ambien or something, and I never ended up taking it, but I did try every over the counter supplement, magnesium, melatonin, all the things. Abbie: And I would get like really excited like, okay, this is gonna be the thing, like this is gonna work for me. And then every time it didn’t, it was like a letdown of okay, it was like more evidence in my mind that, my sleep is broken and there’s nothing out there that’s gonna fix it. Martin: I think a lot of people are gonna identify with that. Martin: And all the things you shared are completely logical to try, right? If we want more sleep to happen it’s almost ground into us that we go to bed earlier, that it’s important to go to bed early get more sleep, give sleep that opportunity to show up. And there can be, it can be, it’s almost like we can become really enthusiastic or we can just try so hard that it backfires on us to the point where we do less with our lives and sleep then grows in importance. Martin: It becomes more of a focus. So it’s almost like we’re up in the stakes. It becomes even more important for us to perform sleep and then when it doesn’t happen as we want it to. You did a great job of just describing what that’s like yourself. We can just, it feels, it can feel like a personal failure and it can reinforce perhaps this belief that there is something uniquely wrong, that maybe our sleep system is somehow broken. Martin: But the truth of the matter is, it’s. Perhaps it’s all the ongoing efforts and the trying, which now exists when it never existed before, when we slept fine, that might be the true source of the problem. Abbie: Yeah, definitely. And I think yeah, along the lines of just like trying everything to control sleep, I was like doing all the sleep hygiene, things like that were recommended. Abbie: Like I was no screens before bed. Like I just, I had this whole routine of I got a no caffeine, no alcohol, blah, blah, blah. That was just like adding more and more things when, like you just said in the past I had no sleep routine. Like I was, I would pass out on the couch watching TV and go to bed. Abbie: So yeah, I think that’s exactly right. Martin: Often as we’re engaged in this pursuit of sleep, we end up removing things from our lives that, either give us meaning or are enjoyable. And that could be something like we, we might give up coffee altogether, for example, even though that’s something we really enjoy. Martin: We remove that from our lives. We remove TV from our lives. We remove going out with friends late at night from our lives. And so our sleep generally stays the same because sleep doesn’t really care about any of that stuff. But at the same time, our situation has gotten worse because we’re taking all of that stuff away in order to serve sleep. Martin: And it just makes us, it can make us just feel trapped in this just endless spiral of more difficulty and a less joy from life. More withdrawal and more struggle. Abbie: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think that was my experience. The more I. I stopped my usual routine. The worse, I think the worse that it got, for sure. Abbie: Which is counterintuitive at the time I was like, I can’t be out until 10 o’clock, like I gotta be in bed. And that ended up being one of the things that I, that down the road really helped me was actually staying out late and doing things late at night and doing all these things despite not being able to sleep. Martin: I’m curious, you mentioned earlier that you went to the doctor and they gave you a prescription for the Ambien, but you didn’t end up taking end. Curious to know why that was? Abbie: Yeah. I was really nervous about taking it, but I think what I was really nervous about is that I, that it would work and that I wouldn’t rely on it to sleep and. Abbie: That was like my worst nightmare. It was like, okay, I can suffer and try to sleep and all these things, and if I took this medication and it worked is that gonna be the rest of my life? Am I never gonna be able to sleep again without this medication? So I definitely was like, I think I was really tempted and really close to probably taking it after a month of not sleeping, but I was like yeah, I just wa I didn’t wanna rip the bandaid off, I guess you could say and go down this like spiral of that I felt like I, I couldn’t get back from. Martin: And I think that’s a good illustration of how any effort or anything that we do to try and make sleep happen can so easily backfire. Because if we try something and it feels like it works. We can feel that reinforces this belief or this idea that we need something to generate sleep, that we’re incapable of generating it by ourselves. Martin: And on the other hand, if we try something and it doesn’t work, then we reinforce this belief that we need. We still need to keep looking, that we can’t generate sleep by ourselves, that we failed at that thing or that we failed at sleep. So we’ve got this potential that regardless of the outcome, every time we try, we might be reinforcing this idea or this belief that there’s something wrong with our sleep system, that there’s something wrong with our situation, that something is broken when that’s never the case, as we’ll explore a little bit later in our conversation. Abbie: Yeah, definitely. I think the reliance, like you said on these external things was really big for me early on and that didn’t end up being the solution. Martin: You also made a good point too, that if we do feel like we’re reliant on something, there might be a point in the future where we don’t wanna be reliant on that thing anymore. Martin: So if we haven’t addressed what the real root cause of this issue might be then we are gonna be having to revisit that at some point in the future. So it never really goes away. It’s always gonna be with us. Abbie: Yeah. Yeah. It definitely felt like a short term solution and I was like, I gotta try, I gotta try something else. Martin: People that aren’t too familiar with insomnia will usually only think of insomnia as like a nighttime problem, but when we’ve been struggling with it or we’ve got that experience of struggling with it, we know that it really is a 24 hour problem, right? It affects our nights and it affects our days. Martin: Maybe it affects our days even more than it affects our nights. I’m curious to hear from you. How was this affecting your days? Not only in terms of like you touched upon your, those kind of withdrawal from the activities and doing things that are important to you, but the way your mind was responding. What was that experience like for you? Abbie: Yeah, I would say it was like really intense anxiety. Pretty much from the moment I got outta bed of just these thoughts of am I gonna sleep tonight? And like I had said going to work was a good distraction, but of course I was like exhausted at work and I was like, I don’t know how many more days and nights of this like I can do. Abbie: And you’re just spiraling. Is this permanent? Is this forever? And I think I also developed a lot of health anxiety around it, like I had all these concerns is this gonna have long-term sort of negative consequences on my health? I think, rightfully there’s so much out there about the number one thing you could do for your health and your longevity is sleep. Abbie: And you Google sleep and there’s 15 articles about the negative consequences of not sleeping. And not to say that the science isn’t true. I just think that was like really unhelpful for me at the time of okay, not only is the consequence, like I’m tired and anxious and I, I physically feel bad, but there’s, if this keeps going this is gonna be bad for my health in the long term. Abbie: So I don’t know. All these thoughts were like spiraling all day long. And then as soon as it. I got dark out, like as soon as the sun started to go down I would get this like intense feeling of dread. And yeah. So it was definitely, like you said, an all day thing, not just like a nighttime thing. Abbie: I think at night it was definitely more I’m sitting in bed and my heart is racing and my thoughts are racing and the more you’re trying to sleep, the more your heart is racing. And so it’s like a lot of physical symptoms. And then during the day it was just like a lot of my mind is consumed with, am I gonna sleep tonight? Martin: The messaging around sleep out there is very focused on sleep is very important and I would agree with that. Sleep is very important, just like breathing is very important and we’re still waiting for a study to come out that shows that insomnia causes any health problem or increases risk of mortality. But boy, when you read some of that stuff that’s online, it really does sound like a life or death situation. And when you are already putting so much importance on sleep, it can just make things so much more difficult. Martin: Because it, again, it ups the stakes, right? And you’re gonna put more pressure on yourself to perform sleep. So yeah, I just wanted to emphasize that yes, sleep is important, but the body can generate it by itself just like it generates breathing by itself. And I think a lot of people here listening to this will really identify with how you described what your mind was doing at the time, it was problem solving for you. It was trying to fix this problem. It was brainstorming, and as it was doing that, it was generating lots of difficult feelings, difficult thoughts. It was generating anxiety to ensure that you were giving it attention. Martin: And there’s also that fatigue, right? That sense of exhaustion. And it can just be when you combine that with your mind is just being focused on sleep and generating all these predictions or these stories it can be really hard to focus and to concentrate on doing stuff that matters. Abbie: Yeah. Yeah. Abbie: That, that was definitely my experience. I think, the anxiety is like enough to deal with and then you’re exhausted, and so that’s only feeding it. And you, I just remember feeling okay, if I don’t like. Die from lack of sleep I’m gonna lose my mind. Yeah, it was just a big spiral. Martin: How did you respond to what your mind was doing at the time? Abbie: At the time I had family and friends and a partner who were really supportive and I could confide in and that was great. But I also think unless you’ve experienced insomnia, I still just felt like very alone, in the experience. Abbie: And finding Insomnia Coach was like huge in realizing that I wasn’t alone and that these aren’t unique thoughts and experiences in, in a good way. So yeah, I was trying to cope I think, as best as I could. I was distracting myself. Trying to distract myself at work and yeah, as soon as I realized that the withdrawing from day-to-day activities was making it worse I think that was a really good kind of switch for me in okay, if I can’t sleep, I can’t control the sleep, but I can control my response and I can control what I’m doing. Abbie: So instead of going to bed at 8:00 PM like I’m gonna go and go to the gym. And I, with no expectation that the gym was gonna make me tired, just like I like to go to the gym and I’m gonna, if I’m up anyway, like I’m gonna study for the GRE and do my grad school application. Abbie: So I think, yeah, as soon as I had that mindset shift from withdrawing to. Going back to my normal routine. If anything it, it was a good distraction. Martin: It sounds like you noticed this conflict between some of the thoughts or the stories that your mind was your problem solving brain was telling you as it was trying to fix this problem for you, like you need to withdraw, you can’t do those things. Martin: You need to do less. You need to say, no, you need to go home. All of these things. And compared to your experience, your experience was telling you well, actually withdrawing isn’t making things any better. It’s not making me feel less fatigued or more rested. It’s certainly not making my life any better. Martin: And once you notice that conflict, maybe there was this kinda light bulb moment there that I can hear all these thoughts. I can listen to all these thoughts and stories. I don’t necessarily need to fight them. I just need to respond in a way that’s of my choosing. I get to decide how to respond to these thoughts. Martin: I don’t have to battle with them, struggle with them. I don’t have to let them control me ultimately. I still have the power here. Abbie: Yeah. I do think that was like the first sort of light bulb going off of okay, all of my thoughts and beliefs about anything but about sleep are not necessarily reality. Abbie: I don’t have to believe that, I have this thought, I’m never gonna sleep again. That doesn’t make it true. Or you have this thought like, I need to go home and cancel all my plans and otherwise we’re gonna be exhausted. I was exhausted anyway yeah I do think the realization that I didn’t have to, I guess believe my. Abbie: My thoughts was also like a really big switch for me. Martin: What did it feel like to realize that what your brain might be telling you or what your brain might be saying might not actually be true? Abbie: Yeah, honestly, it felt like a big relief. I and I also think I realize the worse I feel and the more negative the thoughts, the less true my thinking is and the less serious I need to take my thinking. Abbie: So yeah, I think this big relief of there’s a whole reality that exists out in the world and I can always come back to that and whatever my thoughts, my brain are telling me, it doesn’t always match up with what the reality is. And so as soon as I gave myself like, permission to not believe my thoughts, and I still practice this today. Abbie: Like it’s not easy, but you have an anxious thought or something and you’re like, okay, or here’s the alternative and this isn’t true. So yeah, as soon as I gave myself that permission to, to not one take my thinking so seriously and to two not trust it, especially like when I’m feeling down or bad I think yeah, that, that was a huge sort of flip for me and in my kind of journey with insomnia, but also just like my overall mental health journey. Martin: I think it might be human nature to resist what’s difficult or uncomfortable. So for many of us. We will resist anxiety, for example, or try really hard to fight it when it shows up or avoid it from showing up in the first place. As you develop this insight or this light bulb moment that maybe the thoughts aren’t always true, did that change how you were able to respond to them? Abbie: I think the big thing was just like not taking it so seriously like not taking every thought so seriously. And that in turn helped me take some of the pressure off of sleep because if, if I am, my brain is telling me that, if I don’t sleep tonight there’s gonna be all these consequences and blah, blah, blah, then, but if I don’t have to believe that, then it’s not so much pressure that I sleep tonight or the next night or whenever. Abbie: I do think like getting some distance from my own thoughts was also good. Like I, you’re just, I was so in my own head and every thought that came up, I had to follow that train of thought and act on it. When I realized that I didn’t I think I had a lot more freedom to, to actually do the things that felt Right. Martin: So when you found Insomnia Coach, at this point, you’d already been trying lots of different things. What made you think there might be something here rather than it just being yet another one of these things that you’ll probably try and not get much from? What made it feel different? Abbie: Yeah, I think the main thing was there, this sort of like notion that there’s actually nothing to do, I think a lot of other content, like I had mentioned was like, do this, and this before better or don’t do this and this. And when I found Insomnia Coach, I just really, it was the first time I had seen the messaging like, the more we try, the less sleep will come. Abbie: And so I think when I first found it, I was like, it’s like when some, when you’re stressed and someone tells you to calm down, you’re like, yeah, okay. Stop trying. Sure. That I think at the time seemed like pretty much impossible. But yeah, I think the, there was a lot of content in the emails that you sent that was like one, like I mentioned, making me feel like I’m not alone in this and this isn’t unique to me. Abbie: And two. Maybe I can just let go a little bit, like maybe I can stop trying so hard. And there were some other like specific sort of techniques and things that, that you had mentioned that ended up being really helpful for me, which I am happy to talk about. But yeah, I think it was just the permission to stop trying so hard. Martin: If we are able to remember a time when sleep wasn’t an issue or a concern, what were we doing to make sleep happen so well back then? And maybe our own experience can reveal the most valuable insight, which is that sleep was effortless. It required no effort, there were no rules, there were no rituals. It just happened by itself, and that’s really where we want to get back to. Abbie: Yeah. Yeah. I think that sort of idea you’re mentioning about some of the most valuable information being like my own experience. I think that came up again and again it later in my journey with insomnia. Like when I would have like bumps along the road, I would go back to okay, I’ve had insomnia before. Abbie: I pretty much didn’t sleep for like months on end. And I survived, and I. I went to work and I functioned and all these things like that is evidence for me in my mind that I can do it again. And I think what made this like first like intense bout so hard was that I, this was the first time it had happened. Abbie: Like I didn’t have evidence that I could go back to my baseline, but as soon as I had that, like first night of like normal sleep, I think that was really powerful for me to be like, okay here’s your own experience and evidence that it’s possible to sleep. Again. Martin: It really is a learning experience, I think. Martin: And there’s that classic phrase that we don’t know what we don’t know but if we can approach things with some kindness that we aren’t these all encompassing, all seeing individual geniuses, that there are gonna be things that we don’t know. And we can be kind to it to ourselves about that and be curious and be willing to learn or experiment. Martin: There is so much value there because I think that really is what gives us the opportunity to make change happen. Abbie: Yeah, I definitely wish I had been easier on myself when things were at their peak. I think I, yeah, just like the self-talk and like the things you’re telling yourself why can’t I do this? Abbie: My sleep must be broken. It’s all just negative reinforcement instead of positive sort of affirmations for yourself. I think that can be really hard in the moment. But yeah, looking back, I, I think that would’ve been really useful. Martin: It’s amazing how hard we can be on ourselves when things, when we’re experiencing difficulty and struggle, because I like to believe that there’s good in all of us, and I think that most of us, if we were sitting down with a loved one and they were describing exactly what we were going through themselves, we would talk to them in a completely different way to how we talk to ourselves when we are experiencing that exact same thing. Abbie: Yeah. That is so true. I think that’s something I, I’m still working on, like in every situation what would I tell my loved one, or my friend or my family like I would, if the roles were reversed and a friend had come to me with this insomnia problem, like I would’ve been really like concerned and worried for them. Abbie: But of course I wouldn’t have been like. And I would be like, you’re gonna sleep again. Of course you’re gonna sleep again. And I couldn’t tell myself that at the time. Martin: And if nothing else, again, if we pull on our own experience, we can ask ourselves, how does talking to myself in this way? Or how does acting toward myself in this way help? Martin: Is it improving the situation? Is it making me feel better? Is it helping me emerge from the struggle? Or is it making things more difficult? And I’m a big, I’m a huge proponent of us using our own experience as our best guide, because every person is the expert on themselves. I’m not the expert of anyone other than myself. Martin: But what I can do is encourage people to look within themselves and reflect on their own experience. When it comes to so many struggles in life maybe all of them, the answers that we need are already within us. It’s just a case of. Looking for them. And sometimes we need some kind of external influence or source to tease them out, but all the answers are already within us. Abbie: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great point. Martin: Let’s get into the changes that you made, that you found most helpful. What ones would you like to share with us? Abbie: Yeah, the most like tangible thing I did was give myself this sort of like wake window in which I couldn’t go to bed. I think I started with three or 4:00 AM or something, and I was like, I’m not even gonna attempt to sleep. Abbie: I have to stay up until 3:00 AM and then I can get in bed and whatever happens, but like until 3:00 AM I am watching tv, I’m doing something, whatever. And I think this like definitely tricked my brain from I have to sleep, I have to sleep, I have to sleep to, I can’t sleep until this time. Abbie: I think that was like really powerful for me. And, it wasn’t like a cure all, like all of a sudden I was sleeping, but it took probably a month when I was like slowly pushing back this sleep sort of window earlier and eventually I would, it would be like 2:00 AM and I would be like passing out to sleep on the couch. Abbie: And I was like, okay, we’ll push it back to 1:00 AM and midnight. And that was really helpful for me. And something that I used, even once my sleep improved, if I had, a bad night or a bad week, I’d be like, okay we’re going back to this like wake window and tonight I’m up until three and we’ll see what happens. Abbie: So yeah it was totally just a mental thing of telling yourself you need to sleep versus telling yourself you have to stay awake. Which is such a simple thing when you, when I look back, but that was like really transformative. Yeah. And the other thing, like I talked about, I think was just like really returning to my routine. Abbie: So like I, I would hang out with friends after work. I would go to the gym, take, my roommate at the time was like a night shift nurse, so she was up anyway, so I’d be like, let’s go do something. And, I’d be out, it’d be like midnight and I’d be like, okay. That was all time in which I was distracted and not thinking about sleep. Abbie: And then I come home and I found sleek to just be a lot easier as soon as I, yeah, sleep to be a lot easier. When I wasn’t laying in bed at 8:00 PM every night waiting for it to happen. Martin: I think what you’ve shared is a great example of there’s no unique way of doing this that is gonna work or be appropriate for everyone. Martin: It’s about finding what’s helpful for you with the intent, as long as the intention is workable, as long as you’re not trying to control what can’t be controlled. So for you, your intent was to move away from trying to make sleep happen. And as a way of helping you reach that goal, you decided I’m gonna make myself stay awake till 3:00 AM instead of trying to fall asleep, I’m gonna try to stay awake. Martin: And that could be such a powerful mindset shift, right? Because then when we’re trying to stay awake. What might happen differently? What was your experience? How did things change when you went from trying to sleep to trying to stay awake? Abbie: Yeah, I just felt like the, I had a new goal, like my brain had a new problem to solve, and the problem was like, we gotta stay up till 3:00 AM and I gotta find stuff to do until 3:00 AM. Abbie: So that was helpful. And just yeah, taking the pressure off from and getting outta my own thoughts of okay, it’s another hour and I’m outta sleep. It’s another hour and I’m not asleep. And into just a more calm and peaceful state of mind. And then of course once that happens, like I would just, I would fall asleep. Abbie: And even on those nights, like when I. I was trying to make to 3:00 AM and I would like doze off at two or something. I would, the next day I would be like, okay, like what did I do? Like how did I do it? And every night it was like I didn’t do anything, like my body just fell asleep and there was enough sleep drive to, to put me to sleep. Abbie: And then, yeah, as soon as I had, like even I, like I mentioned I was really sleeping like very little. So even when I had three or four hours of sleep a night, that was again, more evidence in my mind that my sleep is not broken and it is possible. So it was that positive feedback cycle, whereas before it had been this negative feedback cycle. Martin: When you weren’t trying to make sleep happen, you were now all of a sudden trying to stay awake. That urge to sleep just became stronger because you’re no longer putting that pressure on or putting the effort in. And that came too with the bonus of, it’s a powerful reminder that your sleep system is still there, it’s still intact, it’s not broken. Martin: You are feeling that sense of sleepiness and a sense of sleepiness isn’t always required for sleep to happen, but it can be a nice reassuring reminder when you feel that sleepiness and the difficulty staying awake. And even if someone is listening to this and they don’t really wanna stay awake until 3:00 AM again, that’s not a requirement. Martin: A lot of people just look to stay awake later than they have been. If they feel like they go into bed earlier and it’s not really doing much for them, then how about we just move it a little bit later? Martin: It’s just a tool that’s there for you to practice if and when you as the expert on yourself, feel is gonna be useful. Abbie: Yeah, definitely. We’re trying to get away from here’s the one thing that’s gonna fix everything and that’s not the case. But I do think anything that can flipped the script in your brain from sleep whether it’s distraction or whether it’s staying up later or whatever, I think can be really useful. Martin: Yeah. And sometimes staying up later can be more appealing than going to bed earlier. If we find that when we go to bed earlier is a lot of tossing and turning and struggling and battling, it can be somewhat of a relief to give ourselves permission to stay out of bed and not go to bed until later. Martin: Whereas on the other hand, someone else listening to this might find that time in bed quite pleasant. In which case, why not go to bed at the time you’ve been going? It really does, again, come down to the individual, but there is that potential opportunity, bonus opportunity there of being able to do something else earlier in the night rather than struggling. Martin: The other helpful change that you’ve said that you made was reengaging in life and doing stuff for example, going to the gym which maybe you were doing less of in response to the difficulties with sleep. And I think maybe a lot of people listening to this can recognize that. Yeah I would love to do all these things that matter to me. Martin: But it just feels so difficult to do that. It maybe, it even feels impossible to do that. I’m curious to know if you had those kind of thoughts, and if so, how did you stay committed or how were you willing to experiment with this idea of still doing some of this stuff, re-engaging in this stuff that matters? Abbie: Yeah, I, I think early on, like fighting the urge to just go home and do nothing was so hard. Like the last thing it did, it felt impossible to think I’m gonna go do something with friends after work, or I’m gonna go to the gym or whatever. And I did kind of shy away from everything for a long time because it was so hard. But I think even like that first time that I made plans after work or went to the gym and realized like, okay, nothing bad happened I’m still just as tired as I was before. It wasn’t, I think also at this point, like my body was in such like fight or flight mode that like nothing, like I just was exhausted and nothing was making it better or worse honestly. Abbie: And so when I realized okay, I can either. Go home and toss and turn in bed all night and feel horrible. Or I can go to the movies after work and then come home and feel horrible. I’m gonna pick the thing that at least gives me a little bit of joy for the time that I’m doing it. And yeah not to say doing any of that, like somehow cured my sleep or anything. Abbie: But I started slowly to like care a little bit less and less that I wasn’t sleeping because it, one of the things I had been telling myself is okay, why is it so bad that I can’t sleep? It’s so bad because I’m not gonna be able to live my life. Abbie: I’m not gonna be able to go to work. I’m gonna get fired. All these things. And when you realize that, okay, these things are not conditional on sleep, like I can still do these things. Despite whether or not I sleep, I think there was a lot of freedom in that. Martin: What did progress for you look like? How did you measure progress? Abbie: I definitely think early on it was still all about sleep and the quality of my sleep. And every night was like either a success or a failure. Like I either slept or I didn’t, and things were very black and white. And I think slowly over time I was able to realize, okay, maybe there’s a little bit less anxiety and a little bit less dread before bedtime because I’m excited to go out with my roommate or to go to yoga or whatever. Abbie: Like eventually I got to the point where success, I think I, I always was gonna like care about sleep, but I definitely got to the point where success was a lot more like. What is my mental state about sleep? Am I wrapped up in this like anxious bald spiral or am I thinking and doing other things with my day? Abbie: So yeah, I think measuring progress definitely changed. Does as time went on. And I do think measuring progress in did I sleep or did I not sleep is, was not useful for me personally. Martin: It makes sense why we would want to measure progress based on how we’re sleeping from night to night because that’s the main problem that we are looking to solve. Martin: And yet it can set us up for struggle ’cause our own experience probably tells us that sleep is out of our control. So I think it can be useful to dig a little bit deeper and ask ourselves. What makes sleep important to me? Why do I want to get rid of insomnia? Martin: And on the surface it can sound obvious, but if you do a little bit of digging, we can often find that it reveals bigger insights that are often more related to, we see this as an obstacle to us living the kind of life we want to live. We don’t have freedom over our lives or power over our lives anymore, and we want that back. Martin: And so when you uncover something along those lines, if that’s something that you do uncover. It can help you redirect your attention towards action. And maybe then your markers of progress become more related to action. And that can be so helpful because action is within your control. So if insomnia is an obstacle to you doing things that matter, or if you’ve started to do some things that matter, maybe then that’s the true progress. Martin: ’cause it’s actually moving you closer to where you want to be, rather than trying to eliminate something which you might not be able to direct your control. Abbie: Definitely true for me that one of the worries with insomnia was like, like I said I’m not gonna be able to go to work, I’m not gonna be able to be successful in a career or maintain my relationships, giving myself evidence that’s not true in the form of well, I’m gonna do these things anyway, was so powerful. Martin: It’s connected to that power and influence all these thoughts and these feelings that show up alongside insomnia have over your life. So you are able to reflect on the fact that they were almost certainly still showing up maybe less over time as you’re less tangled up in them. Martin: But I’m sure they would still show up because they’re natural, normal human feelings and thoughts, but they’re not consuming all of your energy and all of your attention. They’re more like water off of a duck’s back rather than some, rather than this huge pair of stadium speakers right in front of your face just blaring heavy metal music. Martin: They’re just starting to lose some of that power and influence. Abbie: Yeah, definitely. And it’s so interesting to reflect now when I have a period of sleeplessness or something like. Just how now it’s like an annoyance. I’m like that was annoying. I might be tired today. When before it was like, the world is ending, so I think the seriousness at which I view not sleeping has, is definitely definitely lessened, which is good Martin: When it shows up it’s more like a mosquito rather than a huge black bear frothing at the mouth. Abbie: Yeah. Martin: As you were making these changes, was it just a case that things just got progressively better? Martin: Or did you find there were periods when things went well and then there were like these road bumps or setbacks? Was there any kind of patterns you were noticing, or was it all over the place? What did that look like for you? What did that journey look like for you? Abbie: Yeah, definitely was not linear. Abbie: I think about maybe after about six months, I felt like I was sleeping okay, maybe six hours a night in my own bed. But I think sleeping elsewhere or having my partner stay over, traveling, all that stuff was like still really hard for me. And like on one pattern I noticed was like on Sunday nights I really had trouble sleeping because I was like, again, putting pressure, like this is my last night before I have an entire work week to get through. If I don’t sleep tonight, I’m gonna be tired all week. And then by the time like Thursday came, I think sleep was like a lot easier ’cause it just was like, okay, I’m at the end of the week. I’m tired. Abbie: But yeah, I would say it was probably about like a year until I felt like I could really sleep elsewhere, like travel or stay at my parents’ house or anything, and sleep. Abbie: There were definitely bumps along the road and about a year in I ended up going to grad school and that was just like a big change in my life and a period of kind of stress and some of the sleep issues came back and I just went right back to the things that I had worked last time. Abbie: Like I went back to my wake windows and I think it was just so much easier when it did come back because instead of thinking like I, I mean there were some thoughts of oh no, like it’s happening again. But more so there were thoughts of I did this before, I can do it again. And I have better tools now. Abbie: So I think looking back, it was like each bump along the road made things better in a way. ’cause it was like, again, more evidence that these things are gonna ebb and flow, but I’m always gonna return to baseline. Martin: You can’t have those bumps in the road unless you’re moving forward on your journey. Martin: And that’s something we can easily lose sight of. We focus on what hasn’t gone right or we focus on the setback but that wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t within that context of some kind of progress. Abbie: Yeah, I definitely had a lot more gratitude, like going from sleeping one or two hours a night, like every next hour that I was able to sleep. Abbie: Like I was just grateful for. And even now if I consistently will get eight hours of sleep and every once in a while I’ll be like, I need to remember to be thankful for that because there was a period in which like four hours of sleep was like the ultimate goal. So yeah, definitely a good exercise in practicing gratitude too. Martin: I think when the difficult nights show up or when the nights when we get less sleep than usual or what we were hoping for, it’s a reminder that as human beings there are gonna be nights when we have less sleep than we want. Just there will be thoughts that show up and some of those thoughts will feel good, some won’t, some will be helpful, some won’t. Martin: And it really is just a case, like you said, of the ongoing practice. You’ve got that experience at that point of what has helped you. It’s just a case of going back to them or refocusing on them. Because every time you practice, you also get better at them. You gain more skill In all these things that we talked about, you develop more resiliency, you become better at it. Martin: But that doesn’t mean you can reach this ultimate peak of enlightenment when none of this stuff affects you and never shows up ever again. Life doesn’t work that way. There’s like this magnet force trying to draw us back into a struggle. But it’s a case of you’ve got that awareness now of when that’s happening, you know an alternative way to respond. Martin: And you can focus on those action based responses to continue moving forward. As you reflect on the journey that you’ve been on, how has it changed your life? What have you learned from this whole experience? Abbie: When it was happening I remember, like I said, just having these really negative thoughts of this is gonna change my life for the worst. Abbie: I’m gonna have long-term, health or otherwise consequences from this. And not only has that not been the case but also I feel like it, it really has had a positive impact in that. I just feel like a lot more equipped to handle. The ebbs and the flows. There was a point in my life where, you know, thinking about having kids and traveling and all these things that were gonna disrupt my sleep, like really stressed me out. Abbie: And those things are a little bit quieter now that I have this like trust that, that I can handle these things. And I think that extends not just to like insomnia, but other areas in my life like these thought patterns and this mentality like can be applied to any sort of like area of anxiety or just any sort of thoughts that I’m having. Abbie: Yeah, I’ve definitely found it just like mentality shift to be useful in other areas of my life as well. Martin: You’re not the first person to say that, and I completely agree with you. A lot of this stuff that we talk about can really powerfully impact our lives in a positive way. It’s not just a way to respond to insomnia. Martin: The experience can be a real growth opportunity, which sounds crazy when you’re still in the struggle with it, but once you’re able to reflect back on it, what you learn from the experience can be a huge asset. Abbie: Yeah, definitely. I think it, like you said, at the time I would’ve just like totally rolled my eyes that this is gonna be a positive thing in the long run. Okay, sure. But yeah it really has been. Given me a lot of coping skills I think that I can take into the future and into other areas of my life. Martin: Abbie, I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out your day to come on. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening they feel as though they’ve tried everything. They’re beyond help. They’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. What would you say to them? Abbie: I think first I would say you are not alone. And in the nicest way possible, like your anxiety and your insomnia is not special. I remember feeling like that’s great that all these people have found these solutions, but somehow my insomnia is worse and mine is different. Abbie: And these things like peace and returning to this baseline is not possible for me. And the funny thing is that’s what we’re all thinking. That our insomnia, our anxiety is somehow different and special. And yeah, just to say that, me overcoming this also isn’t special. Abbie: That is possible for everybody. And yeah the path might not be linear, but I think it’s possible for everybody and we can’t control sleep, like we’ve been saying. But you can control how you respond and I think that’s the best way forward. Martin: Thanks again for taking the time to come onto the podcast and to share your journey, your experience, all the insights you’ve picked up on the way. Abbie: Yeah. Thanks so much. It was great to talk. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Please share this episode!

Dan had never struggled with sleep — until a stressful period in late 2023 turned his nights upside down. After a panic attack and a couple of sleepless nights, he found himself pacing the house at 2 a.m., clock-watching, and convinced he was broken. Even after medication gave him one long night of sleep, the struggle came roaring back the very next evening. As a highly-skilled problem solver, Dan threw himself into fixing insomnia. He followed strict routines, taped over every bit of light in his room, tried teas and supplements, and skipped work after difficult nights. Yet the harder he tried, the worse things got. Every attempt to control sleep just added more fear, more pressure, and more exhaustion. Things began to shift when Dan stopped trying to control sleep and fight every thought. He started making small, practical changes: limiting nighttime clock-checks, going to bed later at night when he felt sleepy rather than tired, and committing to one meaningful activity each day — even after rough nights. Those actions reminded him that life didn’t have to stop because of insomnia. Over time, Dan learned to respond differently to the thoughts and feelings that used to overwhelm him. He discovered he could notice them without needing to believe them, and he didn’t have to beat himself up when sleep didn’t go the way he wanted. With patience and practice, nights became less of a battle, and his confidence in his body’s natural ability to sleep began to return. Today, Dan isn’t just sleeping better — he feels stronger than before insomnia began. He knows he isn’t broken, he has skills he can always rely on, and he’s living more fully, no matter what his nights bring. His story is a powerful reminder that with time, self-kindness, and small daily steps, it’s possible to stop struggling and regain trust in your natural ability to sleep.

During a trip to Switzerland, Stephanie had a night of no sleep and spent the next day battling panic attacks. Her sleep soon recovered, but that experience planted a seed of fear — a fear of going through another day like that if sleep didn't show up. Months later, when a medical diagnosis and abrupt medication changes disrupted her sleep, that old fear returned — stronger, louder, and harder to ignore. She threw everything at the problem: strict sleep hygiene, medications, rigid rules, new routines. But the harder she fought for sleep, the more relentless the struggle became. Some nights she found herself outside at 3am, wrapped in a blanket, scrolling for answers — exhausted, anxious, and desperate for relief. The turning point didn’t come from a new trick or another pill. It came when she stopped fighting. When she stopped treating wakefulness as a threat and gave herself permission to feel what was already there — the fear, the frustration, the anxiety — without trying to push it away. In this episode, Stephanie shares how letting go of the fight helped her start showing up for her life again. She talks about responding to difficult nights with more presence, more compassion, and more trust in her ability to cope — and how she rebuilt her life one night, one breath, one value-based action at a time. Stephanie’s story is a powerful reminder that recovering from insomnia isn’t about winning the fight. It’s about realizing there was never a fight to win in the first place.

Rebecca never struggled with sleep — until she began working 24-hour shifts as a hospital-based midwife. She cared deeply about her patients, and she made a quiet promise to herself: nothing would go wrong on her watch. That meant staying awake through every shift. Over time, that vigilance seeped into her nights at home. Sleep became something she chased — and then something she feared. Rebecca tried everything: medication, strict CBT-I programs, endless data tracking, a long list of rules. And still, sleep didn’t come. She followed every instruction, but nothing seemed to work — and somewhere along the way, she started to believe that something was wrong with her. That she wasn't doing something right. What changed wasn’t a new pill or a stricter plan. It was her relationship with sleep — and with herself. She began practicing a different approach. She gave herself permission to rest without sleep. To play golf. To laugh with friends. To live with uncertainty and discomfort instead of fighting them. She made room for the thoughts and feelings that once overwhelmed her — and realized they didn’t have to control her life. Sleep didn’t return overnight. But as her days became fuller and her nights gentler, it began to come back — naturally, and with far less struggle. Today, Rebecca still has shorter nights from time to time, as all human beings do. And they no longer define her or limit her. Because she knows: she can still live fully and move forward — no matter what the night brings.

Tim’s insomnia began during a stressful time in his life. At first, it was just a few bad nights but the more he worried about it, the worse it got. The harder he tried to fix his sleep, the more he struggled. Things started to change when Tim learned a new way to deal with insomnia. He realized that trying to control sleep was actually keeping him stuck. So, instead of resisting wakefulness, he began to give it permission to exist. As he stopped following strict sleep rules and gave himself more freedom, Tim learned that being awake at night wasn’t the real problem — it was his response to the fear of not sleeping that made things harder. Over time, as Tim let go of the struggle, sleep showed up all by itself, without him needing to go to war with insomnia night after night. And, when he stopped chasing after sleep and focused on living his life independently of sleep, insomnia lost the stranglehold it once had over his life.

In 2019 Danny was going through a stressful period in his life while also being on a big health and fitness kick. When his sleep started to become a problem, Danny became very concerned and his doctor offered medication. When Danny started to make some lifestyle changes to reduce stress, reduce the intensity of his training, and ensure he was eating sufficiently, his sleep started to improve. Danny felt relief, believing that he'd found the cure — that sleep needed a certain amount of exercise or a certain type of diet to happen. As time went on, Danny found himself increasingly focused on protecting his sleep through diet and exercise. This, in turn, created a lot of sleep-related anxiety — and when really difficult nights returned in 2022, Danny realized that diet and exercise weren't the guardians of his sleep after all. Looking for answers, Danny spent his days troubleshooting and trying to figure out a way forward. Danny discovered that the key to getting his sleep back on track was to reduce the power and influence sleep had over his life. For sleep to be effortless, he needed to move away from putting effort into making a certain amount or type of sleep happen. In this episode, Danny describes the approach he took. It involved committing to actions that mattered to him each day (no matter how small), independently of sleep. It involved identifying and eliminating sleep-related rules and rituals. It involved ensuring his actions served him rather than insomnia. It involved acknowledging all the difficult thoughts and feelings that came with insomnia and being kinder to himself when things were difficult rather than trying to fight or avoid them and being harder on himself. This process wasn't easy. It took commitment, resilience, and effort. It requires ongoing practice. Today, Danny's sleep is back on track. And, when the occasional difficult night shows up, it no longer has any power or influence over him or the life he wants to live.