The Behavioral Observations Podcast with Matt Cicoria

What happens when an organization responds to a productivity problem by lowering its billable-hour requirement? In Session 340 the Behavioral Observations Podcast, Matt Linder, Chief Operating Officer of First Children's Services, and Founder and CEO of Desired Effect Coaching Solutions, joins me to discuss an organizational challenge that will be familiar to many ABA providers: high BCBA turnover, low morale, and a compensation system built around demanding billable-hour expectations. Matt describes how the existing system required BCBAs to average 28 billable hours per week and included consequences for falling short of those expectations. At the same time, the organization was experiencing substantial BCBA turnover, with 31 BCBAs leaving over an 18-month period. Rather than simply increasing pressure to meet productivity expectations, Matt helped redesign the system. The organization lowered required billable hours by approximately four hours per week while maintaining salaries, and introduced a positive reinforcement-based bonus system that allowed BCBAs to earn additional compensation for exceeding their targets and supervising behavior technicians. How did this all work out? Tune in to hear how making these somewhat counterintuitive changes substantially reduced turnover and increased productivity. During our conversation, Matt and I discuss: Why the original compensation and productivity system was creating problems. How turnover costs helped make the business case for changing the system. The decision to lower billable-hour requirements while maintaining BCBA salaries. Shifting from punitive contingencies to a bonus system based on positive reinforcement. Creating a transparent compensation calculator so employees could see how the new system would affect their earnings. The importance of employee feedback and trust during organizational change. Monitoring for unintended consequences when changing performance contingencies. Why financial and productivity measures aren't sufficient without meaningful measures of clinical outcomes. Developing career ladders and leadership opportunities for RBTs. Lessons for behavior analysts who want to begin doing OBM work. Matt also discusses several initiatives currently underway at First Children's Services, including improved measurement of clinical outcomes, an RBT career ladder and mentorship system, and the integration of newly acquired private schools. Toward the end of the conversation, Matt offers a useful starting point for behavior analysts interested in OBM: identify clearly what you're trying to accomplish, determine how you're going to measure it, and then use behavioral principles to evaluate whether the changes you make are actually producing the outcomes you want. Resources: First Children's Services: firstchildrenservices.com Careers at First Children's Services Matt Linder: [email protected] Abernathy (2009): Walden Two Revisited: Optimizing Behavioral Systems Abernathy (1996): The Sin of Wages: Where the Conventional Pay System has Led Us, and How to Find a Way Out Binder (2024): The Value in Focusing on Work Outputs Sponsor shoutouts! Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout! Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out here. HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years. Rethinking Resilience: Join The Behavioral Toolbox International on November 10th for a one-day virtual conference focused on building schools where students and staff can adapt, recover, and thrive. Featuring Adithyan Rajaraman, Steven Ward, Paulie Gavoni, and more, this event offers practical strategies for supporting students, educators, and school systems, along with 7 BACB CEUs. Register on BehaviorLive and use promo code BEHAVIORNAV15 to save $15!

In Session 324, Dr. Paulie Gavoni and Steve Ward join me to discuss what resilience actually looks like from a behavior science perspective — and why many well-intentioned adult responses can unintentionally teach avoidance instead of persistence. We center our conversation around their book, S.H.I.T. Happens: Building Resilient Children in a Fragile World, which reframes resilience not as a personality trait or motivational slogan, but as a set of learnable repertoires shaped by the environments adults design We talk about: Why resilience is a behavioral repertoire, not a mindset or personality trait The hidden ways adult anxiety shapes children's learning environments How overprotection and pressure both undermine skill development Designing "successful struggle" so kids contact reinforcement for effort Everyday moments — homework, sports, emotional setbacks — as resilience practice The adult's role as guide, not rescuer or drill sergeant Teaching recovery instead of avoidance Scaling challenges to build confidence and persistence Why discomfort is information, not danger This discussion emphasizes practical decision-making: how small changes in adult behavior can create conditions where children learn to try again, persist longer, and experience the satisfaction of overcoming something difficult. Whether you're a practitioner, educator, or parent, this episode highlights how resilience is built through repeated opportunities to struggle safely — and why those opportunities matter more than we often realize. Resources mentioned: Paulie and Steve's book Assent & Trauma Informed Care: A Call for Nuance in Behavior Analysis Motivational Interviewing: Getting Educator Buy-In (course) Adaptive Intelligence: The Evolution of Emotional Intelligence Through the Proven Power of Behavior Science Paulie's other books Kind Extinction: A Procedural Variation on Traditional Extinction The Four Leadership Hats: Applying Behavioral Science to Leadership and Supervision (Session 321 with John Guercio) The ACT Matrix: A New Approach to Building Psychological Flexibility Across Settings and Population Session 313: Client Assent in Behavior Analysis: Balancing Autonomy and Clinical Progress (Ethics CE available) Sponsor shoutouts The School Behavioral Solutions for Special Educators & Behavior Analysts. The Behavior Toolbox Conference is a one-day, high-impact professional convening that brings together experienced practitioners and leaders from across education and behavior science to share what actually works in schools. It's taking place virtually through BehaviorLive on March 5th, 2026, and will be available on-demand for those who can't make it on the day of the event. Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout! CEUs from Behavioral Observations. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out here. HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.

En este episodio, Miguel conversa con María Sánchez, una profesional con un impacto notable en la formación de analistas de conducta en España y Latinoamérica. La charla gira en torno al Behavioral Skills Training (BST) o Entrenamiento de Habilidades Conductuales: qué es, cómo se aplica en la práctica y por qué sigue siendo una de las herramientas más efectivas para entrenar tanto a profesionales como a familias. María comparte su recorrido profesional, que comienza en Inglaterra en un centro para niños con autismo y evoluciona hacia su trabajo en PECS, donde encontró su vocación inesperada en la supervisión y formación de otros profesionales. Trabajó en la capacitación de profesionales en Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Costa Rica y España, observando de primera mano el poder transformador de la comunicación aumentativa, especialmente en niños no verbales que comienzan a desarrollar estructuras de lenguaje más complejas. Durante la pandemia, y tras el cierre inicial en Italia, María reinventó su práctica y creó 360 Online, un proyecto de formación remota para garantizar que profesionales en regiones aisladas pudieran acceder a entrenamientos RBT e IBT de calidad. Desde entonces, ha formado a cientos de estudiantes a través de clases sincrónicas, colaboraciones con centros en Latinoamérica y sesiones a distancia altamente prácticas. Miguel y María profundizan en el procedimiento BST —instrucciones, modelado, juego de roles y retroalimentación—, explorando cómo implementarlo eficazmente con adultos, cómo dar feedback específico sin sobrecargar, y cómo equilibrar correcciones con reconocimiento positivo. También dialogan sobre las ventajas y desafíos de entrenar a distancia, la importancia ética de proteger la privacidad de clientes y familias, la necesidad de fomentar ambientes de aprendizaje seguros y empoderadores, el rol del telehealth en la generalización de habilidades y las demandas formativas reales en España y Latinoamérica, donde muchos profesionales tienen apenas una o dos horas semanales para cumplir con las 40 horas requeridas. Antes de cerrar, María ofrece consejos esenciales para quienes están en el campo del análisis de conducta, subrayando la importancia del trabajo en equipo, la práctica deliberada y la humildad profesional. BOP in English: BST with María Sánchez In this episode, Miguel speaks with María Sánchez, a professional with a remarkable impact on the training of behavior analysts across Spain and Latin America. The conversation centers on Behavioral Skills Training (BST)—what it is, how it is applied in practice, and why it remains one of the most effective tools for training both professionals and families. María shares her professional journey, which began in England at a center for children with autism and later led her to her work with PECS, where she unexpectedly discovered her passion for supervision and professional training. She provided training to professionals in Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Costa Rica, and Spain, witnessing firsthand the transformative power of augmentative communication, especially in nonverbal children who begin developing more complex language structures. During the pandemic—and after the initial shutdown in Italy—María reinvented her practice and created 360 Online, a remote training project designed to ensure that professionals in isolated regions could access high-quality RBT and IBT training. Since then, she has trained hundreds of students through synchronous classes, collaborations with centers across Latin America, and highly practical remote sessions. Miguel and María dive into the *BST procedure—instructions, modeling, role play, and feedback—*discussing how to implement it effectively with adults, how to provide specific feedback without overwhelming, and how to balance corrections with positive reinforcement. They also explore the advantages and challenges of remote training, the ethical importance of protecting client and family privacy, the need to foster safe and empowering learning environments, the role of telehealth in skill generalization, and the training demands faced in Spain and Latin America, where many practitioners have only one or two hours per week to complete the required 40 hours. Before wrapping up, María shares essential advice for those in the field of behavior analysis, emphasizing teamwork, deliberate practice, and professional humility.

In Session 320, I sit down with Landon Cowan and Tiffany Kodak to talk about an area of behavior analysis that doesn't get nearly enough attention: professional (or "soft") skills. We spend a lot of time in our field teaching and refining technical, clinical, or "hard" skills—and for good reason. But far less time is devoted to the interpersonal, communication, and problem-solving skills that ultimately determine how effective we are as clinicians, supervisors, and collaborators. In this conversation, Landon and Tiffany share their research aimed at identifying, defining, and measuring these professional skills, along with some eye-opening findings about where skill gaps exist. 🔍 What We Cover in This Episode How hard skills differ from professional (soft) skills in behavior analysis Why professional skills are so difficult to define, measure, and systematically teach How Landon and Tiffany developed a comprehensive professional skills survey for behavior analysts The challenges of survey design, including question format, length, readability, and pilot testing Results from a survey completed by 189 ABA supervisors, including: Which skills supervisees demonstrate most frequently Which skills supervisors rate as most important for career advancement A significant gap between the importance of problem-solving skills and how often they're actually demonstrated Why solution-based problem identification and independent problem solving emerged as key areas for improvement A surprising finding that many supervisors report feeling confident teaching these skills despite identifying major skill deficits How Behavioral Skills Training (BST) can be used to effectively teach professional skills Why the field needs clearer operational definitions and better data collection to build a stronger literature base Practical advice for BCBA trainees and early-career BCBAs around self-assessment, feedback, and ongoing professional development 🎯 Key Takeaways This episode reinforces something many of us already suspect: professional skills matter—a lot. In many cases, they're just as important (if not more important) than technical expertise when it comes to supervision, leadership, and long-term success in the field. Developing these skills requires intentional training, honest self-reflection, and a commitment to continuous learning. My hope is that this conversation helps push our field toward doing a better job of teaching, measuring, and valuing the skills that make behavior analysts more effective in the real world. Resources and Links Dr. Kodak's faculty page at Marquette University. Dr. Cowan's LinkedIn page. Cowan and Kodak (2024). Professional Skills for Behavior Analysts: A Survey on the Proficiency and Importance of Hard and Soft Skills. LeBlanc, Taylor, and Marchese (2019). The Training Experiences of Behavior Analysts: Compassionate Care and Therapeutic Relationships with Caregivers. Taylor, LeBlanc, and Nosik (2018). Compassionate Care in Behavior Analytic Treatment: Can Outcomes be Enhanced by Attending to Relationships with Caregivers? The Stone Soup Conference (use promo code PODCAST26 to save at registration). Sommers-Flanagan and Sommers-Flanagan (2023). Clinical Interviewing. Carroll, Preas, and Paden (2022). Training supervisors to provide performance feedback using video modeling with voiceover instructions: A replication. Sponsor shoutouts! Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you've struggled with software that's buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you're not alone. That's why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more! Frontera. Consider taking a demo of Frontera's Assessment Builder and see how the ethical application of AI technologies can help you serve clients and save you time! Your first assessment report is free. And if you use code BOP25 you'll get an additional five assessments for just $100. So head to fronterahealth.com to check it out! The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26! The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25. CEUs from Behavioral Observations. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out here.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Sarah Frampton, who conducts research on, amongst other things, improving how we teach, learn, and organize information using behavior-analytic strategies. We explore her career journey, her research on graphic organizers and the Cover, Copy, Compare (CCC) strategy, and the broader implications for stimulus equivalence, educational technology, and effective teaching. In This Episode, You'll Learn: How Sarah's unconventional path led her from economics and psychology into Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA). Why note-taking and structured learning strategies, like CCC, matter for retaining and applying complex information. How stimulus equivalence principles can enhance learning beyond direct instruction. Insights from Sarah's research combining CCC with graphic organizers, including practical takeaways for educators and learners (see Frampton, Vesely and Jackson, 2025). How visual learning tools and educational technology can improve engagement and retention. Strategies for training learners to use these approaches independently and effectively. Highlights From Our Conversation: Sarah's Path Into ABA Sarah shares how a thesis requirement and a Craigslist job posting led her to ABA, including formative experiences working with Dr. Alice Shillingsburg at the Marcus Autism Center. These experiences sparked her interest in efficient, broadly applicable learning strategies. Why Note-Taking Strategies Matter We discuss the value of graphic organizers and the Cover, Copy, Compare (CCC) strategy: Graphic organizers visually display relationships between concepts. CCC is a structured, active-response method that strengthens memory, similar to flashcards. Sarah emphasizes how behavior-analytic techniques can support higher-order thinking processes often considered "cognitive." CCC and Stimulus Equivalence Sarah walks through stimulus equivalence with clear examples, showing how teaching certain relations can produce broader learning without direct instruction. She also highlights a study where CCC and graphic organizers helped learners prepare for tests—even under intentionally challenging conditions. Graphic Organizers in Action Key findings from Sarah's research: Learners who drew more structured organizers performed better. Teaching organizer use during test conditions did not hinder performance. Visualizing relationships among stimuli predicted task success. Training Learners to Use These Strategies Sarah outlines her training sequence, including pre-tests, video instruction, practice with familiar material, and application to abstract stimuli. A core goal was strategy generalization—ensuring learners could apply CCC to new material independently. Fig. 1 from Frampton, et al. (2025) Fig. 2 from Frampton, et al. (2025) Research Findings Most participants quickly mastered abstract relations and passed post-tests after brief training. Notably, all participants used the CCC strategy—some even more meticulously than required. Educational Technology, Engagement, and Mediation Participants reported the educational technology intervention was easy to use and helpful, contrasting with high dropout rates in similar studies. Sarah also describes how participants naturally used private verbal behavior, such as naming stimuli or creating stories, to aid learning. Visual Learning Tools in ABA We discuss the broader application of visual supports—graphic organizers, flashcards, handwriting—and their role in enhancing learning efficiency for both adults and children with autism. Looking Ahead Sarah previews her upcoming presentation at the Verbal Behavior Conference, covering generative learning and assessment tools. We also explore how collaboration and community can reduce burnout and increase long-term job satisfaction in ABA in the "advice for the newly-minted" segment. Resources & Links Session 287: BiDirectional Naming with Caio Miguel. Session 80: Verbal Behavior and Relational Frame Theory, with David Palmer and Josh Pritchard. Shillingsburg, et al. (2016). A Preliminary Procedure for Teaching Children with Autism to Mand for Social Information. Frampton and Linehan (2024). The effects of a training package to teach note taking on the formation of equivalence classes. Sponsor shoutouts! Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you've struggled with software that's buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you're not alone. That's why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more! Frontera. Consider taking a demo of Frontera's Assessment Builder and see how the ethical application of AI technologies can help you serve clients and save you time! Your first assessment report is free. And if you use code BOP25 you'll get an additional five assessments for just $100. So head to fronterahealth.com to check it out! MindBodyBehavior's Certified Health Coach Program. If you're a BCBA looking to use your ABA skills to help people live healthier lifestyles, learn how to do it the right way, with expert instruction, mentoring, and guidance from Sarah Burby. Better still, podcast listeners can save $$$ by using the code BOP10 at check out. Click here to learn more! The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26! The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.

Episode Overview In this special episode of the Behavioral Observations Podcast, I had the honor of celebrating the 25th installment of the Inside JABA Series. This one was particularly meaningful because it also marks the final appearance of Dr. John Borrero in his role as Editor-in-Chief of The Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis. I invited John to reflect on his three-year tenure—what he learned from reading an enormous volume of manuscripts, how his thinking evolved, and why adapting our language is essential if we want behavior analysis to reach broader audiences. From there, we transitioned into an informative conversation with Dr. Nate Call from Emory University. Nate's recent work focuses on how we can better disseminate applied behavior analysis, not just distribute it. His paper, Scholarship as an Operating Class: Strategies and tactics for increasing dissemination of applied behavior analysis, has already shifted how I think about how our field packages and shares research. In this episode, Nate walked us through actionable strategies for increasing the reach and impact of our work. Key Topics Covered in This Episode 1. John Borrero's Reflections from the Editor's Chair John looked back on his three years as Editor-in-Chief, and I asked him what surprised him most. He talked about: How important clear, accessible language is for dissemination Why behavior analysts must evolve how we communicate without losing our scientific roots Efforts to make JABA papers more accessible through translated articles What it's like to manage a massive editorial workflow and team 2. The Real Difference Between Dissemination and Distribution Nate clarified something that—and I'll admit—I hadn't always thought deeply about: there's a big difference between making your work available and ensuring your work is actually used. Nate described it like: Distribution = scattering seeds Dissemination = preparing the soil so they actually grow He also explained why early-career researchers often focus on distribution out of necessity, and how we can transition to more deliberate dissemination strategies over time. 3. Scholarship as an Operant Class Nate walked me through the framework behind his recent paper. He described scholarly behavior as something shaped by contingencies—just like anything else. We talked about: How individual and systemic consequences shape publishing choices Why some of the most high-impact papers come from individuals rather than large labs Concrete strategies we can use to increase the visibility and influence of our work 4. Boundary Encounters and Second-Generation Innovations I asked Nate about how ideas move between disciplines, and he introduced the concept of boundary encounters. We discussed: Incoming vs. outgoing boundary encounters How second-generation innovations help behavior analysis reach audiences outside our traditional spaces Why these interactions are essential if we want ABA to have a broader societal impact 5. Expanding Our Methodological Toolkit We took a deep dive into methodology and talked about the strengths of single-subject designs—as well as their limitations. Nate made a compelling case for: When behavior analysts should consider Randomized Control Trials, implementation science, or mixed methods Why diversifying methodologies helps us answer questions that matter to educators, policymakers, and grant reviewers What we lose when we rely exclusively on traditional single-subject approaches 6. Participatory Action Research and Social Validity I asked Nate to explain participatory action research, and he shared a powerful example involving first responders and families in crisis situations. He emphasized: The importance of involving stakeholders early How PAR elevates social validity and context Why many federal funders now expect qualitative or participatory components How behavior analysts can begin building these skills, even if it feels unfamiliar 7. Measuring Our Impact More Effectively We also explored how to know whether dissemination is working. Nate and I discussed: Bibliographic network analysis Alt-metric measures The importance of citing intentionally to strengthen high-quality scholarship within the field 8. Nate's Advice for New BCBAs To close the episode, I asked Nate what he'd tell new behavior analysts entering the field. He encouraged them to: Read widely—far beyond behavior-analytic journals Become conversant in different research methods Build collaborations with experts in qualitative, mixed, and implementation-science approaches Think functionally about their own scholarly and professional behavior 9. Resources Mentioned in this Podcast Foxx (1996). Translating the Covenant: The behavior analyst as ambassador and translator Chawla (2020). Science is getting harder to read Critchfield, et al. (2013). A half century of scalloping in the work habits of the United States Congress Klein and Thompson (2025). Abundance The Prisoner's Dilemma Call et al. (2015). Clinical Outcomes of Behavioral Treatments for Pica in Children with Developmental Disabilities Critchfield (2002). Evaluating the function of Applied Behavior Analysis: A bibliometric analysis Inside JABA 18: How to Disseminate Behavior Analytic Technologies (CEU available!) Implementation Science and Participatory Action Research If you're passionate about increasing the influence of behavior analysis—whether through research, writing, teaching, or practice—this episode offers clear, functional guidance for how to do it.