The Human Risk Podcast

Who determines what 'good' Compliance actually looks like? The obvious answer is regulators (and in some jurisdictions) prosecutors. But what if it were the regulated Firms themselves? That's the idea behind purpose-driven compliance, which I'm exploring on this episode.Episode Summary To explore this, I'm joined by Veronica Root Martinez, Professor of Law at Duke University School of Law, to explore a deceptively simple but unsettling idea: 100% compliance is impossible. While we often behave as though perfect compliance is the goal — and in some safety-critical domains it must be — most organisational compliance involves humans. And humans make mistakes. Things get missed. Context changes. Stuff goes wrong.So if perfection isn’t realistic, the real question becomes: how do organisations decide what really matters? The traditional answer has been to look outward — to regulators, enforcement authorities, and in some jurisdictions (particularly the US), prosecutors. Their priorities, expressed through sentencing guidelines, enforcement actions, and settlements, end up defining what “good” compliance looks like. Veronica challenges that logic. She argues that this gets things the wrong way round. Instead of letting enforcement priorities dictate behaviour, she makes the case for purpose-driven compliance — where organisations set their own priorities based on their purpose, values, and actual risks, rather than chasing shifting regulatory expectations. Along the way, the conversation explores culture, human judgment, psychological safety, technology, experimentation, and why “best practice” can sometimes make things worse rather than better. This episode is for anyone who writes rules, enforces them — or simply has to live under them.Guest BiographyVeronica Root Martinez is a Professor of Law at Duke University School of Law, where she researches corporate compliance, ethics, and organisational culture. Her work on purpose-driven compliance challenges enforcement-led models and explores how organisations can set priorities based on their own purpose, values, and risks.Before entering academia, Veronica practised as an associate at a large law firm in Washington, DC, where she worked on regulatory and white-collar matters — experience that strongly informs the practical orientation of her research.LinksProfessor Veronica Root Martinez – Faculty Profilehttps://law.duke.edu/fac/martinezVeronica on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-root-martinez/Purpose-Driven Compliance (paper discussed in the episode)https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6078766AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – 02:00 | “Because they said so”Christian reframes compliance as a universal human experience — not just a professional discipline — and introduces the problem of rules justified solely by regulatory expectation.02:00 – 05:30 | Why 100% compliance is impossibleVeronica explains why modern organisations cannot realistically achieve perfect compliance when humans are involved — and why pretending otherwise creates problems.05:30 – 10:30 | Tolerated misconduct and cultural driftHow allowing “small” rule-breaking can escalate into bigger issues, drawing on behavioural ethics and real-world corporate failures. 10:30 – 14:30 | Risk, prioritisation, and what really mattersA discussion of risk-based thinking, irrecoverable vs recoverable errors, and why organisations — not regulators — are best placed to set priorities. 14:30 – 18:30 | Enforcement swings and resilienceWhy compliance programmes built around enforcement trends are fragile, expensive, and reactive — and how purpose-driven approaches create stability. 18:30 – 23:30 | Innovation, uncertainty, and guardrailsWhy regulators are always behind innovation — and how values-based guardrails help employees make decisions in uncharted territory.23:30 – 30:30 | Technology, AI, and the human in the loopThe limits of automation, the danger of over-reliance on tech, and why human judgment remains essential.30:30 – 36:30 | Rules, loopholes, and malicious complianceHow overly detailed rulebooks create loopholes — and why purpose and principles offer a better basis for accountability.36:30 – 40:30 | The Costco exampleA powerful illustration of simplicity: four ethical principles that employees can actually understand and use.40:30 – 45:30 | Training, regulators, and unintended consequencesWhy blanket training requirements often miss the mark — and how enforcement agreements can accidentally undermine effectiveness.45:30 – 52:30 | Measuring culture and compliance effectivenessMoving beyond counting inputs to assessing outputs, including psychological safety, Speak Up systems, and cultural indicators.52:30 – 57:30 | Experimentation and learningWhy failed interventions aren’t failure — they’re information — and why compliance should be treated as an evolving experiment.57:30 – End | Reclaiming responsibilityA closing reflection on extrinsic motivation, “because I said so,” and why purpose-driven compliance offers a more human, defensible, and sustainable way forward.

What lies behind Romance Fraud? Romance fraud is one of the fastest-growing forms of fraud worldwide, and one of the most emotionally devastating. It’s also one of the most misunderstood.On this episode, I’m speaking to Becky Holmes, author of the bestselling book Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love With You. Becky didn’t become interested in romance fraud through victimhood or research. She stumbled into it during the pandemic after being approached by scammers online — and instead of ignoring them, she decided to wind them up. What began as a joke — sending absurd messages, inventing ridiculous scenarios, and pushing scam scripts to breaking point — turned into something much more serious. Through humour, Becky uncovered the psychological mechanics of romance fraud: how trust is built, how isolation and gaslighting work, and why believing you’re “too smart to fall for it” is often the most dangerous belief of all.In this conversation, we explore why laughing at scammers is not the same as blaming victims, why romance fraud closely mirrors patterns seen in abusive relationships, and why shame — not stupidity — keeps people trapped. We also talk about humour as a gateway to learning, the limits of victim-focused storytelling, and the uncomfortable truth that none of us are immune. This is a funny conversation in places. And then it isn’t. This is not the first time the Human Risk Podcast has explored romance fraud. On a previous episode, I spoke with Anna Rowe, a victim of romance fraud, about the profound emotional and psychological impact of being deceived by someone you believed you loved.In this episode, we discuss:Why romance fraud is a psychological scam, not a technical oneHow humour can expose manipulation without mocking victimsThe striking parallels between romance fraud and abusive relationshipsIsolation, gaslighting, and shame as tools of controlWhy “it would never happen to me” is such a dangerous beliefThe role of AI, deepfakes, and evolving scam tacticsWhy fraud literacy matters — and why people don’t seek it out until it’s too lateThe emotional cost of online exposure and harassmentWhat institutions, platforms, and society still get wrong about fraudGuest ProfileBecky Holmes is an author, speaker, and writer specialising in fraud, online manipulation, and digital harm. Her first book, Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love With You, explores the world of romance fraud through humour, storytelling, and lived experience.Her second book, The Future of Fraud, examines how scams are evolving in a world shaped by AI and digital identity. Links and resourcesBecky’s first book Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love With You - https://share.google/fKQ6qCL1l8Ygl1ey2The Future of Fraud her second (out April 2026) - https://share.google/fKQ6qCL1l8Ygl1ey2Becky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beckyholmeshatesspinach/Becky on Instagram: Becky Holmes (@deathtospinach)Becky on Twitter/X: https://x.com/deathtospinach?Becky’s book agent profile: https://www.curtisbrown.co.uk/client/becky-holmesPrevious Human Risk Podcast episode with Anna Rowe on being a victim of romance fraud: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/anna-rowe-on-romance-scams/AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – Why romance fraud mattersChristian explains why the podcast is returning to romance fraud, linking this episode to an earlier conversation with victim Anna Rowe (linked in the show notes).02:00 – How Becky Holmes got into romance fraudBecky describes how being approached by scammers during lockdown — and deciding to wind them up — accidentally turned into deep expertise.05:00 – When jokes expose the scriptAbsurd replies, fake crime scenes, and the moment Becky realised scammers weren’t reading messages, just following scripts.09:00 – Laughing at scammers, not victimsWhy humour can highlight manipulation without blaming those who fall victim — and how the book shifts from comedy to something much darker.14:00 – Romance fraud as psychological abuseThe parallels with abusive relationships: isolation, gaslighting, shame, and why people stay, return, or fall again.21:00 – “It would never happen to me”Why believing you’re too smart to fall for romance fraud is often the biggest risk of all.28:00 – What the media gets wrongVictim-focused storytelling, ignored systems, and why AI, deepfakes, and scam scripts matter more than headlines.36:00 – Fraud literacy and preventionWhy people don’t seek out information about fraud until it’s too late — and how humour can be a gateway to awareness.45:00 – The personal cost of online exposureOnline harassment, cyberflashing, and the emotional toll of spending years inside the systems you’re critiquing.55:00 – What’s next for BeckyUpcoming books, speaking work, and where to find her online.

Are we losing our ability to think critically as we rely more on AI?Episode SummaryMy guest is social psychologist Dr Guy Champniss to explore the role of behavioural science in business and the emerging challenges of AI in the workplace. We discuss why behaviour change is so hard to sell, the myth that behavioural science is only needed when everything else fails, and how organisations often overlook the human factors in transformation. Guy brings deep insight into how behavioural science is perceived inside organisations—often as a last resort when more traditional methods fail. We examine why that is, and how a better understanding of human behaviour can actually de-risk strategy, improve engagement, and lead to more successful outcomes. We also explore the psychology of AI: how we trust it, how we interact with it, and what we might be losing in the process. From loss of credibility and collaboration among employees, to the risks of over-automation and cognitive offloading, the conversation raises timely questions about what kind of future we're building, and how prepared we really are.You'll hear thoughtful takes on the challenges of selling behavioural science, powerful metaphors to help reframe the debate, and real-world examples from the classroom to the call centre. If you’re curious about the intersection of technology, psychology, and organisational behaviour, this is a must-listen.About Guy Champniss Dr Guy Champniss is a social psychologist and behavioural science practitioner. He teaches at IE Business School in Madrid and consults through Meltwater Consulting. Guy’s current work focuses on how AI is changing human behaviour in organisations—particularly its impact on trust, agency, and critical thinking. He’s also worked extensively in the sustainability space, helping businesses drive lasting behavioural change.AI Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] – Intro to Dr Guy Champniss and sets up the discussion around behavioural science and AI.[00:03:30] – Behavioural Science’s Struggle for AcceptanceWhy it’s often brought in too late and why it needs itself to be sold effectively.[00:10:00] – Organisational Blind SpotsHow businesses resist behaviour-led approaches and prefer short-term fixes.[00:17:30] – From Sustainability to AIGuy’s journey into exploring the psychology of AI at work.[00:24:00] – AI and Human CredibilityWhat happens when AI performs better than people, and how that undermines trust. [00:30:00] – Trust and Bias in AIWhy we trust AI more when it agrees with us and the dangers that brings.[00:38:00] – AI’s Impact on CollaborationHow automation can quietly erode teamwork and critical thinking.[00:45:00] – Students and AIWhat AI use in classrooms reveals about thinking, learning, and shortcuts.[00:52:00] – The Real Future of WorkWhy it’s not AI replacing jobs—but people who know how to use it.[00:56:00] – Language, Labels, and ResponsibilityThe power of how we talk about tech and what it signals.LinksMeltwater Consulting, Guy's firm - https://www.meltwater-consulting.com/drguychampnissGuy on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/guychampniss/His academic profile at IE Business School - https://rhe.ie.edu/speaker/guy-champniss/Guy's research - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Guy-ChampnissMcKinsey article on AI in Contact Centres - https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/operations/our-insights/the-contact-center-crossroads-finding-the-right-mix-of-humans-and-aiOnora O'Neil BBC Reith Lectures on A Question of Trust:Recording: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00ghvd8Transcript: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/radio4/transcripts/20020427_reith.pdfv

We all intuitively know that hypocrisy is a bad thing. But what if it isn’t a flaw, but a feature? But maybe the real problem isn’t hypocrisy, it’s how we think about it.Episode SummaryOn this episode, I'm talking to Dr Michael Hallsworth, a leading behavioural scientist and the author of The Hypocrisy Trap. We explore a topic that’s instantly recognisable but not often properly understood. Hypocrisy is something we’re quick to spot in others, slow to acknowledge in ourselves, and often design around as if it were avoidable or inherently wrong. What Michael reveals — through personal stories, behavioural experiments, and a careful unpacking of what hypocrisy really means — is that our judgments of hypocrisy say more about us than about the people we’re criticising. In fact, hypocrisy isn’t just common; it’s structurally baked into how we navigate competing priorities, conflicting values and real-world trade-offs. And sometimes, paradoxically, a little hypocrisy might even be useful.That makes it incredibly relevant to human risk. In compliance, ethics, and organisational culture, we tend to assume people should act consistently with what they believe, and we often penalise them when they don’t. But as Michael explains, this assumption can lead us to build systems that are brittle, punitive or out of touch with how people actually behave. This conversation challenges that frame and offers a more human — and more effective — way of thinking about inconsistency, trust and moral judgment.Guest Biography - Michael HallsworthDr Michael Hallsworth is Chief Behavioural Scientist at the Behavioural Insights Team (BIT), where he applies behavioural science to policy, organisational design and real‑world behavioural change. He describes himself as someone “helping people apply behavioural science to real‑world problems” and is the author of The Hypocrisy Trap: How Changing What We Criticise Can Improve Our Lives.At BIT, Michael has led numerous projects spanning government and private sector domains, bridging rigorous academic research with operational behavioural insight. His work is characterised by practical translation of behavioural science and an upfront acknowledgement of human complexity — the grey zones rather than the simple binaries.His new book brings this lens to the topic of hypocrisy, exploring how our judgments of double standards shape behaviour, institutions and trust in counter‑intuitive ways.AI-Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] Intro and framing of hypocrisy as a human behavioural risk[00:01:00] Why hypocrisy runs deeper than just “saying one thing and doing another”[00:02:00] Discussion of how organisations treat moral consistency — and the limitations of that approach[00:03:00] Michael’s background, BIT and the genesis of his book[00:04:00] Defining hypocrisy: the three‑part structure[00:06:00] The two‑fold meaning: false image vs double standards[00:07:00] Michael’s personal story with his daughter + the context of “PartyGate”[00:09:00] Historical roots: Freud’s view on civilisation and hypocrisy[00:11:00] Why hypocrisy is a social judgement rather than purely behavioural[00:13:00] When calling out hypocrisy becomes counterproductive in change efforts[00:15:00] Real‑world examples: politics, business, everyday life[00:17:00] The phenomenon of ‘do‑gooder derogation’ and why consistent people make us uneasy[00:20:00] Hypocrisy as a strategic accusation in social media and organisational life[00:22:00] The behavioural science of induced hypocrisy and what it tells us about change[00:25:00] Honest vs. relatable hypocrisy: shifting the narrative[00:28:00] Michael outlines three categories for navigating hypocrisy[00:30:00] His reflections on writing the book and the surprises he uncovered[00:34:00] Balancing moral integrity with public perception and stakeholder expectations[00:36:00] Hypocrisy in corporate ESG: the tension between expectation and action[00:39:00] Managing contradictions among stakeholders: the inevitable trade‑offs[00:41:00] Experiment results: private hypocrisy and moral judge[00:44:00] The paradox: why we prefer people who are ‘inconsistent but principled’ over ‘consistent and bland’[00:46:00] Authenticity vs inauthentic leadership — and the hypocrisy dimension[00:48:00] Is this a practical manual for “how to do hypocrisy well”?[00:51:00] Final reflections: hypocrisy isn’t always about morality—sometimes it’s about signalling, trust and change[00:54:00] Michael’s hope for what the book can achieve and closing thoughts[00:57:00] Wrap‑up, thanks and behavioural nudge for the listenerLinksMichael's website - https://www.michaelhallsworth.com/The Hypocrisy Trap – https://www.thehypocrisytrap.com/Behavioural Insights Team - https://www.bi.team/Michael's IT profile – https://www.bi.team/people/michael-hallsworth/'Partygate' explainer - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59952395

What can war teach us about how the human brain really works? And why is human decision-making a more significant factor than military strength in wars?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I'm exploring how the human brain truly manifests in conflict—and what that reveals about everyday decision-making. Dr Nicholas Wright, a neurologist-turned-neuroscientist who advises the Pentagon Joint Staff, joins me to discuss his new book Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain. In our conversation, Nick explains why fear is functional, how “will to fight” can outweigh superior force, and why democracies remain capable of catastrophic decisions. He also explains how perception operates as a controlled hallucination anchored to reality rather than a simple sensory feed, and why that distinction matters for strategy, leadership, and risk. Moving from fruit flies to front lines, Nick shows how simple neural chemicals regulate aggression, how the brain’s grid cells create literal maps to navigate danger and opportunity, and how both biological and organisational models can mislead when mistaken for reality. The discussion ranges from 1940 France to Kyiv, from Stalingrad to Gaza, and from deception as a vice to deception as a civic virtue.Nick makes a compelling case for metacognition — the ability to think about one’s own thinking— as the conductor of the brain’s internal orchestra and argues that wisdom—not merely cleverness — must be deliberately designed into leaders and into the next generation of artificial intelligence.We end with practical insights: cultivating “better ignorance,” inviting real dissent in the spirit of Churchill, and creating deliberate spaces for reflection like (I'm delighted to report) long train journeys.Guest Biography Dr Nicholas Wright, MRCP, PhD, is a neuroscientist researching the intersections of the brain, technology, and security at University College London, Georgetown University, and the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington, DC. He also serves as an adviser to the Pentagon Joint Staff. Beyond academia, Wright leads projects connecting neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and strategy, and has advised the Pentagon Joint Staff for more than a decade.He consults on AI for SAP and edited Artificial Intelligence, China, Russia, and the Global Order (Air University Press, 2019).His latest book, Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain, is published by St. Martin’s Press (US) and Pan Macmillan (UK).AI_Generated Time-stamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction [00:01:00] Nick Wright’s journey from neurologist to defense advisor, applying neuroscience to strategy and AI.[00:04:29] How evolution shaped the human brain for survival and combat — we’re “built to win or survive a fight.”[00:05:59] Fear as a vital yet double-edged emotion; anxiety as a side effect of peace.[00:08:26] Origins of the book Warhead and cultural perceptions of its title.[00:09:39] Why war remains relevant; critique of overconfidence in peace and Pinker’s “Better Angels” thesis.[00:12:01] Lessons from France’s WWII defeat — cognition and morale outweigh material strength.[00:14:41] Ukraine’s resistance as an example of will to fight; psychology as a decisive factor.[00:15:42] Creativity and emotion as essential tools in decision-making; the brain as an orchestra balancing logic and instinct.[00:18:10] What fruit flies reveal about aggression and shared neural circuitry with humans.[00:21:13] Structure of Warhead — using neuroscience to reinterpret history and warfare.[00:26:37] Mental models and how the brain simulates reality to guide choices.[00:30:37] Perception vs. reality — the brain generates, not records, the world we see.[00:35:31] The “uncanny valley” and prediction errors — why imperfect mimicry unsettles us.[00:36:17] Moral symmetry in conflict — both sides perceive their cause as just.[00:38:00] Deception and fog of war — manipulating human perception as a timeless weapon.[00:41:00] WWII story of René Carmille — lying as moral resistance.[00:43:59] Social media, attention, and the loss of reflection — the modern “disease of abundance.”[00:45:41] Wisdom versus cleverness — Churchill’s reflective habits and valuing dissent.[00:48:11] “Better ignorance” and intellectual humility as foundations of wise leadership.[00:51:26] Cognitive diversity, AI, and the need to embed wisdom—not just intelligence—into machines.[00:58:28] From WWII to China today — the enduring need for wisdom in navigating global conflict.LinksNick's website - https://www.intelligentbiology.co.uk/WarHead Nick's book - https://www.intelligentbiology.co.uk/booksNick on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-d-wright-bba3a065/If you liked this episode, you might also like my discussion with Dr Mike Martin - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/dr-mike-martin-on-war-politics/

What if the biggest AI risk isn’t bias or data, but human behaviour itself? How might AI impact the people using it and what does that mean for how we design solutions and deploy the technology?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by a returning guest. Richard Chataway is a behavioural science expert and strategist who joins me to explore how we can design AI systems that truly work for humans. Richard brings a unique lens to the conversation, combining insights from advertising, government policy, and behavioural science to unpack the human drivers that shape how we build and interact with AI. We discuss everything from cognitive biases and persuasive tech to the ethics of design and how these hidden forces influence our relationship with intelligent machines.During our conversation, Richard explains the importance of context and behavioural frameworks in making AI more ethical, effective, and human-centric. We explore real-world examples of effective and ineffective design, examining where intentions diverge from outcomes and what can be done to address these discrepancies. Richard shares fascinating insights from his book "The Behaviour Business" and his experience in both the public and private sectors, offering a practical yet thought-provoking look at what it really means to design for behaviour in the age of AI.Whether you’re an AI sceptic, enthusiast, or simply curious about how technology intersects with human behaviour, this episode offers a compelling exploration of the invisible levers shaping our digital lives. From nudging with intent to avoiding manipulation, Richard helps us understand how behavioural science can make the future of AI more aligned with our values and less prone to unintended consequences.Guest BiographyRichard is a Behavioural Scientist, Author and Podcaster who heads up the Behaviour Change Team at Concentrix, a Fortune 500 global technology and transformation company, working with around 2000 brands globally in over 70 different countries. He is also the founder of Communication Science Group and a former board member of the Association for Business Psychology. His book The Behaviour Business is a bestselling guide to deploying Behavioural Science within organisations to solve a wide range of problems. vAI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – Intro: Designing AI for humans01:25 – Welcome back Richard Chataway03:15 – Behavioural science meets AI05:20 – Why we lie more to bots07:05 – Judgement, distance & dishonesty09:10 – When design invites bad behaviour11:30 – Fraud as a design problem13:40 – The “Computer says no” effect15:25 – When neutrality helps disclosure17:15 – The empathy paradox19:05 – Data bias & unequal outcomes21:30 – When to keep humans in the loop23:40 – Behavioural science as AI insurance26:00 – When efficiency erodes trust28:20 – Friction, fairness & feedback30:05 – AI and the frontline worker33:00 – Redefining jobs, not removing them36:10 – New skills for an AI world39:00 – Beyond efficiency: meaningful work41:45 – Leadership: ask “should we automate?”44:10 – Practical design principles47:30 – The myth of full automation50:20 – Augment, don’t replace53:00 – Case studies from Concentrix56:40 – Making AI ethics actionable59:20 – The next five years of human-centred AI1:02:00 – Closing reflections1:04:30 – Where to find Richard1:06:00 – Outro & related episodesLinksRichard on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-chataway/Richard's book The Behaviour Business - https://behaviourbusiness.com/Richard's previous appearance on the show - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/richard-chataway-on-the-behaviour/Concentrix - https://www.concentrix.com/Richard at Concentrix - https://www.concentrix.com/contributor/richard-chataway/