The Human Risk Podcast

We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours?Episode Summary My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure.In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing. Guest BioDr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act.Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy07:00 – What games are (and why they matter)10:00 – Achievement vs striving play13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement32:00 – Quantification and loss of context36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics54:00 – Designing better scoring systems58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point01:02:00 – Choosing your own game01:06:00 – Final reflections and closingRelevant LinksThi’s personal website – https://objectionable.net/His faculty page - https://profiles.faculty.utah.edu/u6021584The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/457380/the-score-by-nguyen-c-thi/9780241653975Thi on Bluesky – https://bsky.app/profile/add-hawk.bsky.social

What lessons does a religious protest that led to an uprising in 1549 have to do with human risk?At first glance, not very much. It’s easy to see it as a distant historical event — something about religion, kings, and a very different world. But as my guest, Professor Mark Stoyle explains, the Western Rising of 1549 is far more than that. It’s a powerful example of what happens when authority imposes change without understanding how people will react. Episode Summary This episode started on a train journey to Exeter, where I was due to give a talk. Looking for a local story to make my presentation more relevant, I stumbled across a battle that had taken place just outside the venue in 1549. The more I read, the clearer it became that this wasn’t just history, it was a case study in compliance, behaviour, and unintended consequences.Guest ProfileMark is a historian and leading expert on what he calls the Western Rising of 1549. In this conversation, we explore how sweeping religious changes imposed by those in power triggered resistance, how small incidents escalated into a major rebellion, and why identity, belief, and emotion played such a critical role. Along the way, we discuss how history is written (and biased), why changing language can provoke outrage rather than acceptance, and what this story reveals about leadership, risk, and human behaviour today.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: a compliance failure in 154901:00 – The train journey to Exeter02:00 – Discovering the rebellion04:00 – Why this is a human risk story05:15 – Introducing Professor Mark Stoyle07:30 – Setting the historical context10:00 – Power, authority, and instability13:30 – What triggered the rising17:00 – Why language change caused outrage22:00 – Early resistance and local incidents25:00 – The tipping point: violence begins29:00 – How the rebellion spreads33:00 – The siege of Exeter37:00 – How history is written by the victors41:00 – Crushing the rebellion45:00 – Cultural consequences and language loss48:00 – Lessons for today52:00 – Polarisation and modern parallels57:00 – Final reflections In this episode we discussKey Topics Why imposed change can trigger resistanceHow small incidents escalate into major crisesThe role of identity, belief, and emotion in decision-makingWhy language and culture matter in complianceHow authority can misjudge human behaviourThe dangers of polarisation and “us vs them” thinkingWhy compromise becomes impossible in extreme positionsHow history is shaped by those who winThe unintended consequences of leadership decisionsWhat a 16th-century rebellion teaches us about modern riskGuest ProfileMark Stoyle is Professor of History at the University of Southampton. He specialises in Tudor rebellions, the English Civil War, and the history of witchcraft. Originally from Devon, his work on the Western Rising of 1549 draws on decades of research and a deep personal connection to the region where these events took place.Links The Western Rising of 1549, Mark's book - https://yalebooks.co.uk/book/9780300276886/the-western-rising-of-1549/Mark's University of Southampton profile page - https://www.southampton.ac.uk/people/5wyxqy/professor-mark-stoyleMark's publisher profile: - https://www.worldturnedupsidedown.co.uk/team/mark-stoyle/

What Can a Cocktail Teach Us About Curiosity and Creativity? At first glance, documenting Negronis around the world might sound like a frivolous hobby. But could a simple cocktail become a vehicle for curiosity, experimentation and creative thinking? On this episode, I speaks with geopolitical strategist Marc A Ross about an unusual passion project: ordering and documenting Negronis wherever he travels. What began as a casual habit has evolved into a magazine-style project called 50 Negronis, capturing cocktails from elegant bars to chaotic airport lounges. Along the way, the project has revealed something deeper about travel, culture and the value of experimentation. But as the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear this episode isn’t really about cocktails. Instead it’s about how curiosity leads to discovery, why creative side projects matter, and how experimentation can enrich both our professional and personal lives. Curiosity Starts With Small ExperimentsMarc’s Negroni project began almost accidentally. While travelling frequently for his work as a geopolitical strategist, he started ordering Negronis and photographing them. What made the idea interesting wasn’t a search for the perfect drink.Instead, Marc documented the entire experience — the great cocktails, the mediocre ones, and the truly terrible ones. That curiosity created a lens through which to experience the world differently. Bars became places for conversation, experimentation and discovery, and the project grew into a collection of stories from cities across the globe. Creativity Through PlayA key theme of the conversation is the importance of playfulness. Marc deliberately avoids treating the project too seriously. The photos are simple smartphone snapshots, the documentation is intentionally loose, and the goal isn’t perfection.That approach mirrors how many creative projects evolve; by removing the pressure to produce something “definitive,” the project becomes an experiment. And in the process, it becomes easier to create, learn and iterate. Authenticity, Communication and Personality We also explore how side projects can sharpen professional skills. Marc argues that communicators, leaders and even politicians should experiment creatively and share aspects of their personality. Authenticity matters. Whether it’s documenting cocktails, running unconventional events, or experimenting with new formats, people connect more with ideas that feel genuine. Sometimes the most powerful way to communicate is simply to follow an idea that genuinely interests you.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – A cocktail as a conversation starterIntroduction; why Negronis might seem like an unusual topic for a podcast about human behaviour and yet… 02:00 – Recording in Sundance, UtahMarc describes the Brigadoon gathering and its focus on conversation rather than traditional conference formats. 04:00 – The origins of the NegroniMarc explains the history of the cocktail and why it remains a classic drink. 07:00 – The “50 Negronis” projectA disappointing airport Negroni sparks the idea of documenting the drinks Marc encounters while travelling. 10:00 – Capturing cocktails around the worldMarc explains how he photographs the drinks and records the ingredients when possible. 13:00 – Cocktail culture and experimentationThey discuss how bartenders experiment with ingredients and create new variations. 18:00 – Why the details don’t matterThe project becomes less about recipes and more about stories, places and experiences. 22:00 – Learning through experimentationChristian reflects on how creative side projects can help people learn and explore new ideas. 30:00 – Lessons for communicators and politiciansMarc explains why authenticity and personality matter in leadership. 37:00 – Staying curious and having funThe conversation turns to persistence, creativity and the value of pursuing ideas simply because they’re interesting. 42:00 – Where to follow Marc’s workMarc shares details about Brigadoon events and his geopolitical newsletter. Links Caracal Global, Marc’s consultancy and advisory firm - https://www.caracal.global/Brigadoon, Marc’s series of lovingly curated events - https://www.brigadoon.live/ Marc on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcaross/ Marc’s previous appearance on the show - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/marc-ross-on-communication-strategy/ Sundance Mountain Resort - https://www.sundanceresort.com/

What happens when someone runs with a business idea they've heard as a thought experiment on a podcast? Can a business have an expletive in its name? And is it possible to run a business that sells a single very specific product?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by Charlie Hurst, Tom Noble and Will Sudlow — the founders of Flat White or F*ck Off*, a coffee brand inspired by a thought experiment by friend of the show,Rory Sutherland. The concept is simple: sell one thing — flat whites — and if you want something else… the answer’s in the name. ⚠️ *Given the name of the business, this episode contains a lot of swearing!Within four months of hearing the idea on Jamie Laing’s Great Company podcast, they’d banded together — having never met but being isnpired to give the business a go — built a brand, grown an audience of tens of thousands, and served 1,500 flat whites in a single day at a London pop-up. Most people would've treated Rory's idea as an interesting thought experiment. But Charlie, Tom and Will decided — with Rory's blessing — to actually build it.In an extended conversation, we explore what it means to:Build a brand before you have a productGrow an audience before you open a shopShare your financials publiclyDeliberately polarise rather than pleaseDiscover why Charlie, Tom and Will spent £22,000 on a one-day loss-making pop-that served as a live experiment; part marketing, part proof of concept, part behavioural case study.We discuss why constraint can be liberating, why queues affect perceived quality, how social proof shapes demand, and why narrowing your audience can be more powerful than trying to attract everyone.This isn’t just a story about coffee. It’s about conviction, creative constraint and what happens when you deliberately ignore conventional business wisdom.Guest Bios Charlie HurstDesigner and brand builder. Charlie created the original visual identity for Flat White or F*ck Off after seeing Rory’s idea online.Tom NobleEntrepreneur and digital builder. Tom documented the entire journey in public, helping grow the brand’s audience before a single coffee was sold.Will SudlowCo-founder of experiential agency The Impossible. Will brought production expertise to turn the idea into a large-scale pop-up event.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – From Thought Experiment to Real Business: why this is more than a coffee story. 03:00 – Hearing Rory’s Idea: how Charlie, Tom and Will discovered the concept and decided to act on it.08:00 – Building in Public: growing an audience before having a physical product; documenting everything online.15:00 – One Product Only: why selling just flat whites is a strategic constraint — and a behavioural signal. 25:00 – The Pop-Up Experiment: erving 1,500 coffees in a day; spending £27,000 as a marketing investment.35:00 – Polarisation & Backlash: criticism, online sceptics and why not being for everyone is the point.50:00 – Perception, Queues & Behaviour: what they learned about speed, quality signals and social proof.01:05:00 – Risk, Conviction & Entrepreneurship: why building something in public is both terrifying and liberating.01:20:00 – What Happens Next: scaling, experimentation and staying true to the core idea. LinksRory on Jamie Laing’s Great Company podcast - https://shows.acast.com/great-company/episodes/rory-sutherland Flat White or F*ck Off - https://flatwhiteorfckoff.com/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/flatwhiteorfckoff/TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@flatwhiteorfckoff/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/flat-white-or-fck-off/ The co-foundersTom on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasnoble1992/ Charlie on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlie-hurst-715364150/Will on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/willsudlow/Ask The Impossible - https://asktheimpossible.com/Rory's appearances on this show:https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/ https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-paul-craven-on-alchemy-magic/ https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/ https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley-paul-craven-at-abbey-road-part-one/

Who determines what 'good' Compliance actually looks like? The obvious answer is regulators (and in some jurisdictions) prosecutors. But what if it were the regulated Firms themselves? That's the idea behind purpose-driven compliance, which I'm exploring on this episode.Episode Summary To explore this, I'm joined by Veronica Root Martinez, Professor of Law at Duke University School of Law, to explore a deceptively simple but unsettling idea: 100% compliance is impossible. While we often behave as though perfect compliance is the goal — and in some safety-critical domains it must be — most organisational compliance involves humans. And humans make mistakes. Things get missed. Context changes. Stuff goes wrong.So if perfection isn’t realistic, the real question becomes: how do organisations decide what really matters? The traditional answer has been to look outward — to regulators, enforcement authorities, and in some jurisdictions (particularly the US), prosecutors. Their priorities, expressed through sentencing guidelines, enforcement actions, and settlements, end up defining what “good” compliance looks like. Veronica challenges that logic. She argues that this gets things the wrong way round. Instead of letting enforcement priorities dictate behaviour, she makes the case for purpose-driven compliance — where organisations set their own priorities based on their purpose, values, and actual risks, rather than chasing shifting regulatory expectations. Along the way, the conversation explores culture, human judgment, psychological safety, technology, experimentation, and why “best practice” can sometimes make things worse rather than better. This episode is for anyone who writes rules, enforces them — or simply has to live under them.Guest BiographyVeronica Root Martinez is a Professor of Law at Duke University School of Law, where she researches corporate compliance, ethics, and organisational culture. Her work on purpose-driven compliance challenges enforcement-led models and explores how organisations can set priorities based on their own purpose, values, and risks.Before entering academia, Veronica practised as an associate at a large law firm in Washington, DC, where she worked on regulatory and white-collar matters — experience that strongly informs the practical orientation of her research.LinksProfessor Veronica Root Martinez – Faculty Profilehttps://law.duke.edu/fac/martinezVeronica on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-root-martinez/Purpose-Driven Compliance (paper discussed in the episode)https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6078766AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – 02:00 | “Because they said so”Christian reframes compliance as a universal human experience — not just a professional discipline — and introduces the problem of rules justified solely by regulatory expectation.02:00 – 05:30 | Why 100% compliance is impossibleVeronica explains why modern organisations cannot realistically achieve perfect compliance when humans are involved — and why pretending otherwise creates problems.05:30 – 10:30 | Tolerated misconduct and cultural driftHow allowing “small” rule-breaking can escalate into bigger issues, drawing on behavioural ethics and real-world corporate failures. 10:30 – 14:30 | Risk, prioritisation, and what really mattersA discussion of risk-based thinking, irrecoverable vs recoverable errors, and why organisations — not regulators — are best placed to set priorities. 14:30 – 18:30 | Enforcement swings and resilienceWhy compliance programmes built around enforcement trends are fragile, expensive, and reactive — and how purpose-driven approaches create stability. 18:30 – 23:30 | Innovation, uncertainty, and guardrailsWhy regulators are always behind innovation — and how values-based guardrails help employees make decisions in uncharted territory.23:30 – 30:30 | Technology, AI, and the human in the loopThe limits of automation, the danger of over-reliance on tech, and why human judgment remains essential.30:30 – 36:30 | Rules, loopholes, and malicious complianceHow overly detailed rulebooks create loopholes — and why purpose and principles offer a better basis for accountability.36:30 – 40:30 | The Costco exampleA powerful illustration of simplicity: four ethical principles that employees can actually understand and use.40:30 – 45:30 | Training, regulators, and unintended consequencesWhy blanket training requirements often miss the mark — and how enforcement agreements can accidentally undermine effectiveness.45:30 – 52:30 | Measuring culture and compliance effectivenessMoving beyond counting inputs to assessing outputs, including psychological safety, Speak Up systems, and cultural indicators.52:30 – 57:30 | Experimentation and learningWhy failed interventions aren’t failure — they’re information — and why compliance should be treated as an evolving experiment.57:30 – End | Reclaiming responsibilityA closing reflection on extrinsic motivation, “because I said so,” and why purpose-driven compliance offers a more human, defensible, and sustainable way forward.

What lies behind Romance Fraud? Romance fraud is one of the fastest-growing forms of fraud worldwide, and one of the most emotionally devastating. It’s also one of the most misunderstood.On this episode, I’m speaking to Becky Holmes, author of the bestselling book Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love With You. Becky didn’t become interested in romance fraud through victimhood or research. She stumbled into it during the pandemic after being approached by scammers online — and instead of ignoring them, she decided to wind them up. What began as a joke — sending absurd messages, inventing ridiculous scenarios, and pushing scam scripts to breaking point — turned into something much more serious. Through humour, Becky uncovered the psychological mechanics of romance fraud: how trust is built, how isolation and gaslighting work, and why believing you’re “too smart to fall for it” is often the most dangerous belief of all.In this conversation, we explore why laughing at scammers is not the same as blaming victims, why romance fraud closely mirrors patterns seen in abusive relationships, and why shame — not stupidity — keeps people trapped. We also talk about humour as a gateway to learning, the limits of victim-focused storytelling, and the uncomfortable truth that none of us are immune. This is a funny conversation in places. And then it isn’t. This is not the first time the Human Risk Podcast has explored romance fraud. On a previous episode, I spoke with Anna Rowe, a victim of romance fraud, about the profound emotional and psychological impact of being deceived by someone you believed you loved.In this episode, we discuss:Why romance fraud is a psychological scam, not a technical oneHow humour can expose manipulation without mocking victimsThe striking parallels between romance fraud and abusive relationshipsIsolation, gaslighting, and shame as tools of controlWhy “it would never happen to me” is such a dangerous beliefThe role of AI, deepfakes, and evolving scam tacticsWhy fraud literacy matters — and why people don’t seek it out until it’s too lateThe emotional cost of online exposure and harassmentWhat institutions, platforms, and society still get wrong about fraudGuest ProfileBecky Holmes is an author, speaker, and writer specialising in fraud, online manipulation, and digital harm. Her first book, Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love With You, explores the world of romance fraud through humour, storytelling, and lived experience.Her second book, The Future of Fraud, examines how scams are evolving in a world shaped by AI and digital identity. Links and resourcesBecky’s first book Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love With You - https://share.google/fKQ6qCL1l8Ygl1ey2The Future of Fraud her second (out April 2026) - https://share.google/fKQ6qCL1l8Ygl1ey2Becky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beckyholmeshatesspinach/Becky on Instagram: Becky Holmes (@deathtospinach)Becky on Twitter/X: https://x.com/deathtospinach?Becky’s book agent profile: https://www.curtisbrown.co.uk/client/becky-holmesPrevious Human Risk Podcast episode with Anna Rowe on being a victim of romance fraud: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/anna-rowe-on-romance-scams/AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – Why romance fraud mattersChristian explains why the podcast is returning to romance fraud, linking this episode to an earlier conversation with victim Anna Rowe (linked in the show notes).02:00 – How Becky Holmes got into romance fraudBecky describes how being approached by scammers during lockdown — and deciding to wind them up — accidentally turned into deep expertise.05:00 – When jokes expose the scriptAbsurd replies, fake crime scenes, and the moment Becky realised scammers weren’t reading messages, just following scripts.09:00 – Laughing at scammers, not victimsWhy humour can highlight manipulation without blaming those who fall victim — and how the book shifts from comedy to something much darker.14:00 – Romance fraud as psychological abuseThe parallels with abusive relationships: isolation, gaslighting, shame, and why people stay, return, or fall again.21:00 – “It would never happen to me”Why believing you’re too smart to fall for romance fraud is often the biggest risk of all.28:00 – What the media gets wrongVictim-focused storytelling, ignored systems, and why AI, deepfakes, and scam scripts matter more than headlines.36:00 – Fraud literacy and preventionWhy people don’t seek out information about fraud until it’s too late — and how humour can be a gateway to awareness.45:00 – The personal cost of online exposureOnline harassment, cyberflashing, and the emotional toll of spending years inside the systems you’re critiquing.55:00 – What’s next for BeckyUpcoming books, speaking work, and where to find her online.

Are we losing our ability to think critically as we rely more on AI?Episode SummaryMy guest is social psychologist Dr Guy Champniss to explore the role of behavioural science in business and the emerging challenges of AI in the workplace. We discuss why behaviour change is so hard to sell, the myth that behavioural science is only needed when everything else fails, and how organisations often overlook the human factors in transformation. Guy brings deep insight into how behavioural science is perceived inside organisations—often as a last resort when more traditional methods fail. We examine why that is, and how a better understanding of human behaviour can actually de-risk strategy, improve engagement, and lead to more successful outcomes. We also explore the psychology of AI: how we trust it, how we interact with it, and what we might be losing in the process. From loss of credibility and collaboration among employees, to the risks of over-automation and cognitive offloading, the conversation raises timely questions about what kind of future we're building, and how prepared we really are.You'll hear thoughtful takes on the challenges of selling behavioural science, powerful metaphors to help reframe the debate, and real-world examples from the classroom to the call centre. If you’re curious about the intersection of technology, psychology, and organisational behaviour, this is a must-listen.About Guy Champniss Dr Guy Champniss is a social psychologist and behavioural science practitioner. He teaches at IE Business School in Madrid and consults through Meltwater Consulting. Guy’s current work focuses on how AI is changing human behaviour in organisations—particularly its impact on trust, agency, and critical thinking. He’s also worked extensively in the sustainability space, helping businesses drive lasting behavioural change.AI Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] – Intro to Dr Guy Champniss and sets up the discussion around behavioural science and AI.[00:03:30] – Behavioural Science’s Struggle for AcceptanceWhy it’s often brought in too late and why it needs itself to be sold effectively.[00:10:00] – Organisational Blind SpotsHow businesses resist behaviour-led approaches and prefer short-term fixes.[00:17:30] – From Sustainability to AIGuy’s journey into exploring the psychology of AI at work.[00:24:00] – AI and Human CredibilityWhat happens when AI performs better than people, and how that undermines trust. [00:30:00] – Trust and Bias in AIWhy we trust AI more when it agrees with us and the dangers that brings.[00:38:00] – AI’s Impact on CollaborationHow automation can quietly erode teamwork and critical thinking.[00:45:00] – Students and AIWhat AI use in classrooms reveals about thinking, learning, and shortcuts.[00:52:00] – The Real Future of WorkWhy it’s not AI replacing jobs—but people who know how to use it.[00:56:00] – Language, Labels, and ResponsibilityThe power of how we talk about tech and what it signals.LinksMeltwater Consulting, Guy's firm - https://www.meltwater-consulting.com/drguychampnissGuy on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/guychampniss/His academic profile at IE Business School - https://rhe.ie.edu/speaker/guy-champniss/Guy's research - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Guy-ChampnissMcKinsey article on AI in Contact Centres - https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/operations/our-insights/the-contact-center-crossroads-finding-the-right-mix-of-humans-and-aiOnora O'Neil BBC Reith Lectures on A Question of Trust:Recording: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00ghvd8Transcript: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/radio4/transcripts/20020427_reith.pdfv

We all intuitively know that hypocrisy is a bad thing. But what if it isn’t a flaw, but a feature? But maybe the real problem isn’t hypocrisy, it’s how we think about it.Episode SummaryOn this episode, I'm talking to Dr Michael Hallsworth, a leading behavioural scientist and the author of The Hypocrisy Trap. We explore a topic that’s instantly recognisable but not often properly understood. Hypocrisy is something we’re quick to spot in others, slow to acknowledge in ourselves, and often design around as if it were avoidable or inherently wrong. What Michael reveals — through personal stories, behavioural experiments, and a careful unpacking of what hypocrisy really means — is that our judgments of hypocrisy say more about us than about the people we’re criticising. In fact, hypocrisy isn’t just common; it’s structurally baked into how we navigate competing priorities, conflicting values and real-world trade-offs. And sometimes, paradoxically, a little hypocrisy might even be useful.That makes it incredibly relevant to human risk. In compliance, ethics, and organisational culture, we tend to assume people should act consistently with what they believe, and we often penalise them when they don’t. But as Michael explains, this assumption can lead us to build systems that are brittle, punitive or out of touch with how people actually behave. This conversation challenges that frame and offers a more human — and more effective — way of thinking about inconsistency, trust and moral judgment.Guest Biography - Michael HallsworthDr Michael Hallsworth is Chief Behavioural Scientist at the Behavioural Insights Team (BIT), where he applies behavioural science to policy, organisational design and real‑world behavioural change. He describes himself as someone “helping people apply behavioural science to real‑world problems” and is the author of The Hypocrisy Trap: How Changing What We Criticise Can Improve Our Lives.At BIT, Michael has led numerous projects spanning government and private sector domains, bridging rigorous academic research with operational behavioural insight. His work is characterised by practical translation of behavioural science and an upfront acknowledgement of human complexity — the grey zones rather than the simple binaries.His new book brings this lens to the topic of hypocrisy, exploring how our judgments of double standards shape behaviour, institutions and trust in counter‑intuitive ways.AI-Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] Intro and framing of hypocrisy as a human behavioural risk[00:01:00] Why hypocrisy runs deeper than just “saying one thing and doing another”[00:02:00] Discussion of how organisations treat moral consistency — and the limitations of that approach[00:03:00] Michael’s background, BIT and the genesis of his book[00:04:00] Defining hypocrisy: the three‑part structure[00:06:00] The two‑fold meaning: false image vs double standards[00:07:00] Michael’s personal story with his daughter + the context of “PartyGate”[00:09:00] Historical roots: Freud’s view on civilisation and hypocrisy[00:11:00] Why hypocrisy is a social judgement rather than purely behavioural[00:13:00] When calling out hypocrisy becomes counterproductive in change efforts[00:15:00] Real‑world examples: politics, business, everyday life[00:17:00] The phenomenon of ‘do‑gooder derogation’ and why consistent people make us uneasy[00:20:00] Hypocrisy as a strategic accusation in social media and organisational life[00:22:00] The behavioural science of induced hypocrisy and what it tells us about change[00:25:00] Honest vs. relatable hypocrisy: shifting the narrative[00:28:00] Michael outlines three categories for navigating hypocrisy[00:30:00] His reflections on writing the book and the surprises he uncovered[00:34:00] Balancing moral integrity with public perception and stakeholder expectations[00:36:00] Hypocrisy in corporate ESG: the tension between expectation and action[00:39:00] Managing contradictions among stakeholders: the inevitable trade‑offs[00:41:00] Experiment results: private hypocrisy and moral judge[00:44:00] The paradox: why we prefer people who are ‘inconsistent but principled’ over ‘consistent and bland’[00:46:00] Authenticity vs inauthentic leadership — and the hypocrisy dimension[00:48:00] Is this a practical manual for “how to do hypocrisy well”?[00:51:00] Final reflections: hypocrisy isn’t always about morality—sometimes it’s about signalling, trust and change[00:54:00] Michael’s hope for what the book can achieve and closing thoughts[00:57:00] Wrap‑up, thanks and behavioural nudge for the listenerLinksMichael's website - https://www.michaelhallsworth.com/The Hypocrisy Trap – https://www.thehypocrisytrap.com/Behavioural Insights Team - https://www.bi.team/Michael's IT profile – https://www.bi.team/people/michael-hallsworth/'Partygate' explainer - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59952395

What can war teach us about how the human brain really works? And why is human decision-making a more significant factor than military strength in wars?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I'm exploring how the human brain truly manifests in conflict—and what that reveals about everyday decision-making. Dr Nicholas Wright, a neurologist-turned-neuroscientist who advises the Pentagon Joint Staff, joins me to discuss his new book Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain. In our conversation, Nick explains why fear is functional, how “will to fight” can outweigh superior force, and why democracies remain capable of catastrophic decisions. He also explains how perception operates as a controlled hallucination anchored to reality rather than a simple sensory feed, and why that distinction matters for strategy, leadership, and risk. Moving from fruit flies to front lines, Nick shows how simple neural chemicals regulate aggression, how the brain’s grid cells create literal maps to navigate danger and opportunity, and how both biological and organisational models can mislead when mistaken for reality. The discussion ranges from 1940 France to Kyiv, from Stalingrad to Gaza, and from deception as a vice to deception as a civic virtue.Nick makes a compelling case for metacognition — the ability to think about one’s own thinking— as the conductor of the brain’s internal orchestra and argues that wisdom—not merely cleverness — must be deliberately designed into leaders and into the next generation of artificial intelligence.We end with practical insights: cultivating “better ignorance,” inviting real dissent in the spirit of Churchill, and creating deliberate spaces for reflection like (I'm delighted to report) long train journeys.Guest Biography Dr Nicholas Wright, MRCP, PhD, is a neuroscientist researching the intersections of the brain, technology, and security at University College London, Georgetown University, and the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington, DC. He also serves as an adviser to the Pentagon Joint Staff. Beyond academia, Wright leads projects connecting neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and strategy, and has advised the Pentagon Joint Staff for more than a decade.He consults on AI for SAP and edited Artificial Intelligence, China, Russia, and the Global Order (Air University Press, 2019).His latest book, Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain, is published by St. Martin’s Press (US) and Pan Macmillan (UK).AI_Generated Time-stamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction [00:01:00] Nick Wright’s journey from neurologist to defense advisor, applying neuroscience to strategy and AI.[00:04:29] How evolution shaped the human brain for survival and combat — we’re “built to win or survive a fight.”[00:05:59] Fear as a vital yet double-edged emotion; anxiety as a side effect of peace.[00:08:26] Origins of the book Warhead and cultural perceptions of its title.[00:09:39] Why war remains relevant; critique of overconfidence in peace and Pinker’s “Better Angels” thesis.[00:12:01] Lessons from France’s WWII defeat — cognition and morale outweigh material strength.[00:14:41] Ukraine’s resistance as an example of will to fight; psychology as a decisive factor.[00:15:42] Creativity and emotion as essential tools in decision-making; the brain as an orchestra balancing logic and instinct.[00:18:10] What fruit flies reveal about aggression and shared neural circuitry with humans.[00:21:13] Structure of Warhead — using neuroscience to reinterpret history and warfare.[00:26:37] Mental models and how the brain simulates reality to guide choices.[00:30:37] Perception vs. reality — the brain generates, not records, the world we see.[00:35:31] The “uncanny valley” and prediction errors — why imperfect mimicry unsettles us.[00:36:17] Moral symmetry in conflict — both sides perceive their cause as just.[00:38:00] Deception and fog of war — manipulating human perception as a timeless weapon.[00:41:00] WWII story of René Carmille — lying as moral resistance.[00:43:59] Social media, attention, and the loss of reflection — the modern “disease of abundance.”[00:45:41] Wisdom versus cleverness — Churchill’s reflective habits and valuing dissent.[00:48:11] “Better ignorance” and intellectual humility as foundations of wise leadership.[00:51:26] Cognitive diversity, AI, and the need to embed wisdom—not just intelligence—into machines.[00:58:28] From WWII to China today — the enduring need for wisdom in navigating global conflict.LinksNick's website - https://www.intelligentbiology.co.uk/WarHead Nick's book - https://www.intelligentbiology.co.uk/booksNick on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-d-wright-bba3a065/If you liked this episode, you might also like my discussion with Dr Mike Martin - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/dr-mike-martin-on-war-politics/

What if the biggest AI risk isn’t bias or data, but human behaviour itself? How might AI impact the people using it and what does that mean for how we design solutions and deploy the technology?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by a returning guest. Richard Chataway is a behavioural science expert and strategist who joins me to explore how we can design AI systems that truly work for humans. Richard brings a unique lens to the conversation, combining insights from advertising, government policy, and behavioural science to unpack the human drivers that shape how we build and interact with AI. We discuss everything from cognitive biases and persuasive tech to the ethics of design and how these hidden forces influence our relationship with intelligent machines.During our conversation, Richard explains the importance of context and behavioural frameworks in making AI more ethical, effective, and human-centric. We explore real-world examples of effective and ineffective design, examining where intentions diverge from outcomes and what can be done to address these discrepancies. Richard shares fascinating insights from his book "The Behaviour Business" and his experience in both the public and private sectors, offering a practical yet thought-provoking look at what it really means to design for behaviour in the age of AI.Whether you’re an AI sceptic, enthusiast, or simply curious about how technology intersects with human behaviour, this episode offers a compelling exploration of the invisible levers shaping our digital lives. From nudging with intent to avoiding manipulation, Richard helps us understand how behavioural science can make the future of AI more aligned with our values and less prone to unintended consequences.Guest BiographyRichard is a Behavioural Scientist, Author and Podcaster who heads up the Behaviour Change Team at Concentrix, a Fortune 500 global technology and transformation company, working with around 2000 brands globally in over 70 different countries. He is also the founder of Communication Science Group and a former board member of the Association for Business Psychology. His book The Behaviour Business is a bestselling guide to deploying Behavioural Science within organisations to solve a wide range of problems. vAI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – Intro: Designing AI for humans01:25 – Welcome back Richard Chataway03:15 – Behavioural science meets AI05:20 – Why we lie more to bots07:05 – Judgement, distance & dishonesty09:10 – When design invites bad behaviour11:30 – Fraud as a design problem13:40 – The “Computer says no” effect15:25 – When neutrality helps disclosure17:15 – The empathy paradox19:05 – Data bias & unequal outcomes21:30 – When to keep humans in the loop23:40 – Behavioural science as AI insurance26:00 – When efficiency erodes trust28:20 – Friction, fairness & feedback30:05 – AI and the frontline worker33:00 – Redefining jobs, not removing them36:10 – New skills for an AI world39:00 – Beyond efficiency: meaningful work41:45 – Leadership: ask “should we automate?”44:10 – Practical design principles47:30 – The myth of full automation50:20 – Augment, don’t replace53:00 – Case studies from Concentrix56:40 – Making AI ethics actionable59:20 – The next five years of human-centred AI1:02:00 – Closing reflections1:04:30 – Where to find Richard1:06:00 – Outro & related episodesLinksRichard on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-chataway/Richard's book The Behaviour Business - https://behaviourbusiness.com/Richard's previous appearance on the show - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/richard-chataway-on-the-behaviour/Concentrix - https://www.concentrix.com/Richard at Concentrix - https://www.concentrix.com/contributor/richard-chataway/

Why do so many workplaces run on bullshit processes and procedures? And how might Behavioural Science help resolve them?Episode SummaryIn this episode, I sit down with author, speaker and advisor James Healy to explore his book BS at Work — and the everyday nonsense we all recognise inside organisations.James argues that while behavioural science has transformed public policy and consumer behaviour, workplaces have lagged behind. We dig into why leaders keep choosing rituals over results, why nobody seems to ask “does this actually work?”, and how our search for simple answers can make complex systems worse.I ask James to unpack some of his favourite stories, including the strange origins of the DISC personality test — created by Wonder Woman’s inventor, complete with “dominance” and “submission” baked in — and the utterly self-parodying experience he had with e-learning about not cheating on e-learning. 😳We talk context vs. character, box-ticking vs. behaviour change, and why “I don’t know” is often the most honest answer in big organisations. We finish on what to do instead. James doesn’t offer commandments — he offers principles that sometimes even contradict each other, because context matters.Together we make the case for designing environments that make the desired behaviours easier, embracing complexity with humility, and asking better questions — especially when a shiny quick fix is on the table.GUEST BIOJames is an author, speaker and executive advisor who applies behavioural science to organisational problems — with a mission to make workplaces more human. He's also the Founder and Managing Director of The Behaviour Boutique and host of The B-Word podcast, AI-GENERATED TIMESTAMPED SUMMARY[00:00:00] Introduction [00:03:00] James’s path: economics → philosophy → Kahneman & Tversky lightbulb. [00:06:00] The question James asks in orgs: “Does anybody think this will work?” [00:09:00] The missing third answer: “I don’t know” — and why nobody measures impact. [00:10:30] Why people stick with accepted rituals; self-preservation beats candour. [00:13:30] The book’s stance: no silver bullets; principles, not commandments. [00:16:00] Personality tests & categories; the DISC backstory via Wonder Woman. [00:20:00] Humans on continua, not binaries; our craving for neat boxes. [00:23:00] Complexity rising; we cling harder to simplicity and widen the gap. [00:24:30] The brain’s connectome as humility check; limits of two-by-two thinking. [00:27:00] Context > character; orgs try to “fix the individual” instead of the system. [00:29:00] Mixed signals: “be collaborative” vs. incentives and spaghetti systems. [00:34:00] AI and magical thinking; processes are simple “except for all the ways they’re not.” [00:41:00] Call-centre scripts vs. common sense — when design defeats judgment. [00:45:00] Purpose theatre: the Greggs poster and the risk of making things worse. [00:51:00] The e-learning about not cheating on e-learning; incentives and signals. [00:55:00] “Do something” bias (Geldof); why activity ≠ effectiveness in orgs. [01:00:00] Failure as feature; thinking critically beats imported “models.” [01:01:00] Book and podcast details; where to find James. LINKSJames on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-healy-behaviour-boutiqueJames' website for his business The Behaviour Boutique: https://thebehaviourboutique.com/James' Book BS At Work: Why so much of modern work is bullshit and how behavioural science can make it better - https://www.amazon.co.uk/BS-At-Work-bullshit-behavioural/dp/0646719173?ref_=ast_author_dpJames' Podcast The B Word - https://thebehaviourboutique.com/podcast/

Why do cyclists in London run red lights? It's against the law, and yet, if you've cycled, driven or just observed London's cyclists, you'll know that many of them don't stop when there's a red light. Confession time: I'm one of them. Not all the time, but some of the time, and weirdly not when I'm in Munich — the other city I live in — but only in London.The question of why this happens — not just my red light running, but the act in general — is the subject of this episode. Because I think this seemingly simple act can reveal so much about our compliance with rules, our perception of risk, and the way environments shape behaviour.To unpack these insights, I’m joined by Ella Jenkins, Associate Director at Thinks Insight, and Pete Dyson, a behavioural science researcher at the University of Bath and co-author of Transport for Humans. They've been part of a research team on a study commissioned by Lime, the electric bike and scooter company, which explores why cyclists in London behave the way they do.What we discover isn’t about recklessness—it’s about confidence, social signalling, poor infrastructure, and the surprising psychology of compliance. In our conversation, we examine the drivers of red-light running, the effectiveness of different interventions, and what this means for broader behaviour change.Whether you’re a policymaker, a cyclist, or simply someone curious about how our minds and cities interact, this episode offers practical insights into one of the most visible — and misunderstood — forms of everyday noncompliance.Guest BiographiesElla Jenkins is an Associate Director at Thinks Insight, a strategy and research consultancy that helps clients understand human behaviour and deliver change. She led the research project commissioned by Lime to understand why cyclists in London run red lights. With a background in behavioural science and a passion for applying insights in real-world contexts, Ella brings both analytical rigour and empathy to her work.Pete Dyson is a behavioural science researcher at the University of Bath, where he focuses on transport systems and human behaviour. He is the co-author with Rory Sutherland of the influential book Transport for Humans: Are we nearly there yet? and previously served as the Principal Behavioural Scientist at the UK Department for Transport. He's also the current Cycling Mayor for the UK City of Bath.Pete blends practical policymaking experience with a deep understanding of the behavioural levers that shape how we move through the world.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and personal confession about red-light running[00:01:15] Overview of the Lime-commissioned research [00:03:20] Introducing Ella Jenkins and Pete Dyson[00:05:45] The origins and goals of the study[00:09:05] Red-light running as a defensive rather than reckless behaviour[00:12:08] Confidence and frequency of cycling linked to rule-breaking[00:13:14] Perceptions versus reality of who breaks the rules[00:16:32] The role of infrastructure and signal phasing[00:18:54] Social norms and peer influence on cyclist behaviour[00:21:46] Trust in the rules versus lived reality [00:24:20] Designing for behavioural cues[00:28:15] Comparison with other cities like Munich [00:30:58] The emotional context of cycling[00:34:46] Enforcement and views on potential interventions[00:38:12] Habit formation and unintended nudges [00:41:23] The interplay between education and empathy[00:46:49] Final reflections and Christian's closing thoughtsLinksElla on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ella-jenkins/Pete on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pete-dyson-9ba5301b/What drives red light running in London cyclists?, the research we discuss: https://fileserver.britainthinks.com/dl/wH4CcDyRg8bVThinks Insight: https://www.thinksinsight.com/Lime Bikes: https://www.li.me/en-gbTransport for Humans: https://www.transportforhumans.com/Pete's previous appearance on the show talking about Transport for Humans: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/pete-dyson-on-making-transport-more-human/The announcement of Pete as Cycling Mayor of Bath: https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/the-bicycle-mayor-of-bath-pete-dyson/