The Peaceful Parenting Podcast

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Jennifer Anderson, registered dietitian and founder of Kids Eat in Color, shares how parents can help kids develop a healthy relationship with food and their bodies—without shame, restriction, or diet culture. Plus, practical tips for school lunches and making family meals easier and more affordable.Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.We talk about:03:00 What does a healthy relationship with food and our bodies look like?05:00 Protecting kids from body image and weight concerns07:00 Boys, body image, and the pressure to look “ripped”09:00 Talking to kids who are worried about being in a bigger body12:00 Helping kids develop a healthy relationship with food14:00 Treats, limits, and avoiding shame or moralizing around food21:00 Can kids really regulate how much they eat?24:00 Neurodivergence, interoception, and mindful eating30:00 Emotional eating, comfort, and food as connection32:00 Simple strategies for packing school lunches37:00 Feeding a family when time, money, and energy are limited39:00 Why simple dinners are good enough42:00 Jennifer’s book and pre-order bonuses44:00 The parenting advice Jennifer wishes she’d known earlierResources mentioned in this episode:* Jennifer’s Book Feed Them Well: A Guide to Raising Healthy, Confident Eaters* Search “Kids Eat in Color” to find Jennifer on all social media platformsConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the fall for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Jennifer Anderson, nutritionist and founder of Kids Eat in Color. Jennifer has a new book coming out all about helping kids develop a good relationship with food and with their bodies. That’s what we’re talking about in today’s episode.Along the way, we also touched on some great tips for packing school lunches and making meals easier and more affordable. There’s so much conflicting information out there about feeding kids, and with their physical and mental health at risk, knowing what to do can be very stressful for parents. I love Jennifer’s common-sense and relaxed approach to eating and feeding, and I hope you do as well.If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can help us out not only by sharing it, but by leaving a review and a five-star rating in your podcast player app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode. If you’d like to support us even more, you can become a supporter on Substack to help us offset the cost of making the show. We’ll put a link in the show notes.Okay, let’s meet Jennifer.Hey, Jennifer. Welcome back to the podcast. This is your second time with us.Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me.Sarah: Yeah, I’m so excited. You have a new book coming out, so maybe you could introduce yourself and then tell us about your new book, which is available for pre-order and coming out in September. We will link to that in the show notes, but tell us a little bit about who you are and about your new book.Jennifer: Sure. I’m a registered dietitian. I have two kids who have not been easy to feed, and I’m the founder of Kids Eat in Color and the CEO of Better Bites. I’m so excited to have this book coming out. It’s called Feed Them Well: A Guide to Raising Healthy, Confident Eaters for Life. I just cannot wait for parents to have this resource.Sarah: Amazing. You were telling me before we started that the focus of your book is having kids have a healthy relationship not only with food, but with their bodies. Maybe we could start out by talking about—obviously, this could be a very long conversation—but some of the top things you’ve found that are really helpful, sort of dos and don’ts, in terms of having kids have that healthy relationship with food.And also, what do you mean when you talk about a healthy relationship with their bodies? Maybe that’s a two-part question.Jennifer: Yeah. I love that you framed it as a two-part question, because it is kind of a two-part question, but I feel like that’s only because in English we don’t have a way to describe the fact that these things are deeply connected in us.When I think about a healthy relationship with food, I want to make sure kids know how to take care of their bodies. They know what a balanced diet looks like. They’re able to enjoy food, whatever kind of food it is. And also, we want kids to be able to really appreciate and live in their bodies, experience life through their bodies, and not have this deep what’s called internalized weight bias, where thin is the ideal. Thin is what everybody is shooting for. You should either be worried about how thin you are or trying to get thinner. That is a soul-sucking way of living when we’re so focused on weight and diet culture.So we want to give kids another option. We want to give kids the ability to really appreciate their bodies, and yet we also want to do so in a way that they’re still able to care about the health of their bodies in a way that’s healthy, as opposed to just diet culture.What I call this is embodied independence, where kids are independent. They know all the things they need to do, and they’re also embodied. They’re living in and experiencing their bodies.When we think about what we want to do and what we want to not do, we want to model what we want kids to do, ideally, and this is in every single area of parenting, including eating. That’s where the independence comes from. We’re modeling, and we’re also providing the boundaries and opportunities for them.I always tell parents, “You are in charge of your restaurant at home. You’re the head chef. You’re going to set when your restaurant hours are, you’re going to set what’s on the menu, you’re going to set all these things.” As you’re doing that, you are teaching your child what is part of a healthy lifestyle.On the other side, we’re thinking about their relationship with their body. We want to minimize internalized weight bias, and that means we’re not discussing body sizes or body shapes. We’re not weighing ourselves in front of our kids. One of the most powerful things you can do as a parent is to not discuss your body size or shape and not discuss any weight-loss attempts at any point, if that’s something you ever engage in. Those two things are huge risk factors for disordered eating and eating disorders. If we could just not do that, that would actually be huge.Sarah: I feel like that’s actually a real gift my mother gave me. She never talked about her weight or diets or her body, really, at all. And I feel like I’m one of the few people I know who—I’ll say at least until perimenopause recently—had no body-image issues for my whole adult life. I think that really did stem from being raised without that being a thing that people were talking about.Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. It was discussed in the groups that I grew up in. At the same time, my parents were like, “No, you are not allowed to look at beauty magazines or teen magazines.” I don’t remember really pushing back on that as a teenager, but now I am so grateful because, whether it’s social media now or teen magazines or so many other things, so many of them are focused on body image: how thin you are, how to get thin, how to stay thin, all this stuff. And that stuff is just toxic.Sarah: Yeah, and it used to just be for girls, right? And now boys are—I have so many clients who’ve said their son wants a six-pack, and they’re eight or nine years old and won’t take off their shirt to go swimming.Jennifer: My kids are right now into parkour, and it’s interesting to watch because we’ve been very careful about what we’ve said about them. They’ve recently started talking about six-packs and strong cores and all that because, in reality, my son is like, “I need a stronger core because that will help me flip better.” And he’s 100% right that his core strength is going to determine his success in this sport in a lot of ways.At the same time, getting ripped is not the phrasing that I would really prefer because so much of that is focused on image, right? And yet this is what they’re hearing. My kids are 11 and 13, but it really started last year, when they were 10 and 12, where they’re just kind of being exposed to these ideas of fitness.So when we think about kids understanding this, yeah, we have to have them understand their physical fitness, and then we also have to help them understand that it’s not about looks. It is about how we feel. It’s about what we can do. It’s about how we can serve people. It’s about so much more than just how we look.So as I think about my kids getting ready to do these things and doing these things, I’m going to continue to focus on, “This will help you flip,” not, “This will help you look ripped.”Sarah: Talk a little bit more about some of the dos and don’ts about the healthy relationship. We’ve sort of focused on our bodies. Actually, you know what? Before you do, I want to ask you about something else first, so we’ll stay on that for another second.If you have a child who is in a bigger body and they’re concerned to obsessed about being in a bigger body and feeling like that’s, quote, “bad,” how do you talk to them about that?Jennifer: So I think the first thing is—and I have a framework in the book that, even though it’s kind of cheesy, I call the LOVE framework—we want to listen. We really want to listen, and then we want to validate. Because if a kid is coming to us and saying, “I’m fat. I want to lose weight,” one, we don’t really know what they mean by that. We don’t know where that came from. Are they being teased? Did they hear something? Are their friends all trying to lose weight? We have to listen and understand.And then we have to say, “Yeah, you feel like you want to lose weight. You’re feeling bad right now. You’re telling me that your body is rounder than your friends’.” As we validate, we want to use neutral, factual language. If they’re describing their body in negative terms, we don’t want to say, “Oh no, you’re wrong,” because that’s not right, and it’s also not bad to be in a bigger body. And so if we’re like, “Oh, no, no, no, you’re not fat,” that’s not helpful because we’re just invalidating their whole experience, and we’re also reinforcing the idea that fat is bad.Instead, we want to be like, “Oh yeah, you’re right. I’ve noticed that in our family, we all have softer tummies. We all have rounder tummies.” When we’re using basic descriptive language that’s not negative, we help them reinterpret their body in a way that is more neutral, where we can then eventually move away from this judgment of body size and shape to an acceptance of body size and shape, where that’s just not part of what we’re talking about. It’s just like, “Oh, it’s neutral. This is just a body,” and let’s move on to something more interesting.And then, after we’ve listened and validated, we really want to see if there’s something that we need to take action on. We’re saying, “Okay, do I need to help my child learn coping skills for being bullied? Do I need to talk to the school? Do I need to talk to their friend’s parents? What is my role now in figuring out what needs to happen? Is my child showing signs of having disordered eating? Have they put themselves on a diet?”Those are the sorts of things where you want to take it seriously. If they’re restricting themselves from different foods or they’re doing things to try to change the size of their body, then is the time to involve a professional. Whether it’s a counselor, an eating disorder therapist, their doctor, whoever it is, that is the time. I know it’s hard when we think, “Oh my gosh, my kid potentially has disordered eating or an eating disorder.” That can fill parents with a lot of guilt and fear and shame and all that sort of thing. Don’t let that stop you from getting your child help as soon as possible.Sarah: Yeah, this is not a DIY project.Jennifer: Yeah, it’s not. Now, of course, you can be DIY-ing it all the way up to that point, but at the point where you see a big red flag, go bring somebody else in.Sarah: So what are some tips for helping kids have a healthy relationship with food?Jennifer: I love to talk about food factually, the same way we would talk about bodies. It’s like, “Oh, these are the names of foods. They’re hard, they’re crunchy, they’re savory, they’re sweet, they’re delicious,” as opposed to this sort of, “These are healthy foods, and these are not healthy foods.”It adds a level of complication that is too simple and also contributes to a very rigid perspective of food and eating. Potentially, that can even leak over into how people think of their bodies.Sarah: Yeah, because it just occurred to me—I was reflecting before, when I was thinking of questions to ask you—that I do know someone who talks to their child about, “We have to eat healthy food before we eat the unhealthy food.” And why would you ever want to tell your child that you’re giving them something unhealthy anyway? “Have this dangerous toy.” You know?Jennifer: Yeah. “Don’t play with the dangerous toy until you’ve played with the safe toy.” I completely agree with that, and I think it comes from a very well-meaning place where, again, we’re wanting to pass on this information that empowers kids to nurture their bodies for the rest of their life.So it’s all coming from a good place. We just have to think that kids will internalize this sort of, “Wait a second. You’re giving me all this healthy food, but then we have this unhealthy food. Why are you giving me unhealthy food? And also, am I bad if I eat this unhealthy food? Should I feel guilty? Should I feel afraid of it?” There are a lot of things that kids can take from these conversations.Now, it doesn’t mean that if you’re using this language, you have ruined your child or you have given your child an eating disorder. I am telling you, kids are not that easy to ruin. And you can give them new skills, though, which is just to understand every food does something different in your body, and we can listen to our body to find out what’s right for us. Because let’s say you have an allergy. Yeah, there are some foods that are truly unhealthy. You’re going to have a really bad reaction. And there are also foods where, if you eat too much of them—and this is truly just about every food, including water—if you eat too much of it, you can also become unhealthy.You can’t just live on broccoli. I promise you. That’s not healthy. And we see this in people who become really obsessed with healthy eating. They become very unhealthy. They’re unable to maintain their physical and mental health and social health. It affects all their relationships. So I like to get away from this unhealthy/healthy thinking.And it is so healthy to be able to sit down and enjoy a bowl of ice cream. We’re visiting my parents right now, and my two kids had these big bowls of ice cream, and also the two baby cousins, who are two and not even quite one yet, my mom was giving them ice cream too. I was like, “This is such a grandma move right now.”But here they are, they’re all together enjoying their ice cream, and the two-year-old had sprinkles for the first time. It was just this really amazing bonding moment. I don’t want my kids, in the back of their heads, to think, “Oh my gosh, I shouldn’t have eaten that much ice cream,” or, “I shouldn’t have eaten that ice cream,” or, “That was unhealthy for me.” I just don’t want that for them.Sarah: Yeah. You want to enjoy the food that you’re eating, no matter what the food is. So how do you talk about it then? I’ve heard some people say “sometimes food,” like, “This is food that we don’t eat every day.” How do you talk about or differentiate?Jennifer: You can model that, and I like to do what’s called predictable parenting, where you’re just going to be really consistent about whatever you’re going to do, and you’re going to help your kid get in touch with their hunger and fullness cues. So you’re going to serve them meals, but you’re also going to be like, “Sorry, you can’t have a snack right now because dinner’s in 30 minutes.”You’re going to have a really predictable routine of meals, and that has the purpose of developing their embodiment, which is actually being able to tune in and listen: What is going on inside of my body? What does it need? How do I respond to it? One thing you do is just have an eating routine. That actually goes a really long way in helping kids have a good relationship with food.Then you want to talk about food neutrally, and you want to model what a balanced diet looks like. If you really own your role as the restaurant owner, you’re not going to be making multiple meals. You’re going to be making one meal for the family, in most cases, and you’re always going to make sure there’s at least one food on there that your child’s comfortable with. It doesn’t have to be their absolute favorite food, but it’s got to be something that they’re comfortable with.Sarah: Something they’ll eat.Jennifer: Yeah, something they’ll eat, in most cases. Although kids are eating eggs several times a week for their whole life, and then one day my son’s like, “I don’t like eggs. I’ve never liked eggs.” I’m like, “That’s just so not true.” So you never know, which is why I say something they’re comfortable with, something that they almost always eat.Then you can model what a balanced diet looks like. You’re probably not going to serve candy for meals. Maybe you add a little candy onto a meal or snack, and that’s a strategy people often use, and that’s fine. But you’re going to show that every single meal—or most meals—has a fruit or a vegetable. I like to think of it in terms of a protein food that also has fat, an energy food, which is a carbohydrate-rich source, and then also color, which is fruits and/or vegetables. That’s kind of how I think of a balanced meal.We want to model that for kids for most of their meals and most of their snacks. They will absorb what that means. And so without saying anything, without being like, “Oh, this is a sometimes food. This is an always food,” you’re going to show them that it’s only there sometimes.Sarah: Right.Jennifer: And you’re also going to show them that other foods are there all the time. Now, as kids go out, they’re going to get hyped up on candy and sweets. It’s not like these are going to be, quote, “neutral foods.” They’re not. Maybe when they’re in preschool, but by the time they’re six and in school, with friends and parties, they know that these other foods are different. They know.On social media, I’ve heard, “Oh, we can never restrict kids. We can never say anything that suggests they’re different.” I’m sorry. Hyper-palatable food—meaning candy, things with added sodium and sugar and fat—they are so different.Sarah: Right. Your brain knows they’re different.Jennifer: Yeah. The kids know they’re different. So we don’t have to hide the fact that we know they’re different. We can also set some limits, but we just want to be consistent about them. Like, “Oh, you can have two cookies.” Sometimes we might want to give kids more cookies. You might even say, “Hey, I want my kid to be able to choose how many cookies they have.” That’s all totally fine, and it’s all within the bounds of something that’s going to help kids have a healthy relationship with food and their bodies.Sarah: I mean, I guess it depends, too, on the access, right? Like you were saying, you’re the executive chef of your restaurant. What we did, which I think worked pretty well, was we only occasionally had—I’d buy ice cream once in a while, and we’d eat it until it was gone. Or we’d have chips once in a while, or we’d make cookies once in a while. They sort of had, not 100% free access, but everybody would eat it, and then it would be gone, and then we wouldn’t have that stuff in the house anymore.But the funny thing is—I mentioned to you before that two out of my three kids have been moved out of the house for a while—and I figure now my 19-year-old, I can buy chips and she can decide to eat them or not. So they come home and they’re like, “When did we become a chips household?” I feel like at a certain point you can just have in your house whatever you want and your kids are adults. But it’s hilarious because they’re like, “And bacon? When did you start buying bacon regularly?”Jennifer: Right. And I think ultimately they’re going to grow up. They’re going to decide what they have in their house, and you’re going to decide what’s in your house. We just want to kind of get them to that point where they can enjoy all foods without any guilt.Like, yeah, you made cookies and you enjoyed them together, and then that was that, and then you didn’t have them around for a while. You weren’t sitting there saying, “Oh, well, cookies are bad for you, and so we only have them sometimes.” No, cookies aren’t bad for you. They’re only bad for you if you’re eating so many cookies that it’s pushing out all the other food that you need.Sarah: Yeah. So that reminds me of why I brought that up, which was that you can’t really ask kids to self-regulate, in my opinion—tell me what you think—if that food is available all the time in your house. Most kids, I think, would have cookies all the time if the cookies were just freely available 24/7. So I don’t know. Tell me what you think about that.Jennifer: Yeah, this is a great question. If you go on social media these days, you’ll see people who are like, “Kids can totally regulate. Kids know when they’re hungry and full. Kids can listen to their hunger and fullness cues.” After doing so much research for this book and also having parented—I don’t have as much experience as you, but I’m at 13 years—I agree some kids can regulate, but a lot of kids cannot.And here’s the reason. It’s because, again, that hyper-palatable food has a different effect on their brain than other foods. And if it was an ultra-processed food, meaning it’s a food that was kind of created in a factory or the recipe was designed by a multinational snack corporation, they have done so much research to find out the exact recipe that’s going to make people eat the most of it, override their hunger and fullness cues, and therefore buy more of it.Sarah: Or even their enjoyment cues. Like people eating things and eating, and they’re not even really enjoying it anymore.Jennifer: They are overriding their body, and I think it’s unfair to ask children to try to regulate that and to put that on them. Again, some kids are good at this, and if that’s one of your kids and that’s just how they work, fine. That’s fine. You don’t have to set limits.The key, whether we’re letting kids eat as much as they want or we’re setting limits, isn’t whether we’re setting limits or not. It’s how we’re setting the limits. So if I want to set a limit on cookies, what I want to say is, “We’re all having two cookies today,” and that’s it. I’m not saying, “Because it’s a sometimes food,” or, “Because it’s bad for you,” or, “Because if you eat too much you’re going to gain weight,” or, “Because you don’t have self-control.” I’m not saying any of those things.What the research has shown, and what’s just been observed, is that kids who have a higher weight hear more of these qualifications from their parents: “Because of this,” “Because you...” “Because that’s just too much.” That part is where you’re adding on guilt, shame, and worry, and that’s what we want to avoid. So when we just say, “Hey, everybody’s having two cookies,” that’s just the facts. I’m going to enforce it, but I’m not adding anything to it. It’s in the addition that we run across problems.Sarah: Right. More like moralizing. That makes so much sense. I like how you said some kids can regulate and some kids can’t, in terms of the amount that they’re eating and the kinds of food that they’re eating, because I really did follow all of that sort of intuitive feeding advice for kids. And I did have one child who really had a hard time regulating whether they’d eaten enough, or eating past the point of fullness, and the things that they wanted to eat.It wasn’t until I discovered through some research the connection between ADHD and feeding and found that there are some kids where you can sort of let them more intuitively know what their body needs and wants, and other kids you have to teach mindful eating, which is what we found really solved the issue. Because I was afraid to say anything, you know, because I didn’t want to make this kid feel bad about themselves or their body. But as soon as we had a way to talk about it that was about mindfulness rather than that sort of intuitiveness—I don’t know if you see those two things as different, but that’s sort of how I came to think about it.Jennifer: Yeah. So here’s the thing with intuitive eating. It was a model, and it’s the name of a book. It was a model designed for adults—a very specific group of women, in fact—to come out of diet culture and to get back in touch with their bodies. Of course, that’s a huge simplification, but it was never designed for children.And you may have heard of the division of responsibility in child feeding. That was also designed by a dietitian and eating disorder therapist for the purpose of helping private-practice eating disorder clients—children. But the thing is, that’s a very specific group of people in both cases. So to take a model that was designed for a specific group and now say this is applicable to all children, I don’t think is fair. It’s not evidence-based, and it’s something that I’ve really had to do a lot of thinking about over the past two years.Also, seeing so many kids grow up over the years and helping so many families in the Better Bites programs and things, I’ve been thinking, yeah, this model of always letting your child decide how much to eat, or how much to eat of what foods, actually is not great for many kids.Sarah: Yeah, it wasn’t great for one of mine.Jennifer: Neurodivergent kids especially, whether it’s ADHD or autism or something else, sometimes don’t have as strong of a sense of interoception. And this is true even of some neurotypical kids.Sarah: Yeah.Jennifer: So the interoceptive sense is the ability to tell: Am I hungry? Am I full? Do I have to go to the bathroom? Am I hot? What is going on inside of my body, and do I know how to respond to it? Do I know how to make sense of that experience?Some people describe being anxious as being very, very hot. Like, what do you do if you’re very, very hot? They have to learn over time, “Oh, that also means I’m anxious. Therefore something is worrying me. Therefore I need to address the thing.”So for a lot of kids, we have to walk them through that experience. One of the most powerful ways we can do that is by narrating our internal experience, where we’re saying, “Oh, I’m cold. You see these goosebumps on my arm? That’s telling me I’m cold, and I’m kind of shivering. I’m going to put on something else. Oh, that makes me feel warm.”Or, “I hear my stomach grumbling, and I feel empty, and I feel kind of grumpy. That’s telling me I’m hungry, and so I’m going to plan to eat a snack. I have snack in 15 minutes,” or, “It’s time for a snack right now.” And then as I’m sitting at the table, saying, “Oh, you know, I’m starting to feel my tummy fill up.” At some point you’re like, “Ah, I’m feeling full now. I’m going to stop eating.”But like you’re saying, for some kids, we actually have to teach them explicitly. Some of these kids are going to have a harder time potty training. They may have a harder time learning a lot of things and how to respond to their body because they have to be taught explicitly.Fortunately or unfortunately, that kind of falls to us to help them because we’re the ones who are with them so much of the time, and they’re most likely to be relaxed around us and able to learn. The more we can narrate our experiences—although that can be exhausting, I know—the more they can start to make those connections.Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. And I think also the interoception thing that you mentioned is really a big part of it. Then there’s also that eating can be very regulating in terms of the chewing action and being able to differentiate hunger from boredom. There are so many things that some people or children just know, and some people or children need to be, as you said, explicitly taught those things.Jennifer: Yeah. It’s just something that they don’t know, and their body doesn’t automatically make those connections. And that’s so true, especially with chewing.If you find your child is eating a lot when they’re bored or when they’re lonely or when they have negative feelings or hard feelings, one of the things you can really fall back on is your eating routine, where you’re like, “Okay, we’re going to eat our meals at these times. We’re going to eat our snacks at these times.” It kind of keeps everybody on the same page in terms of when we’re eating.And then it’s a little bit harder to say, “Oh, I’m going to use food to help my kids soothe themselves,” because that’s really tempting when we know, “Hey, if I just give them a snack, they’re going to calm down.” I’m definitely a big fan of occasionally using food as a pick-me-up because what a great tool. We could be feeling bad, and then we can eat something, and all of a sudden we can feel so much better.Sarah: My daughter this morning had to have some blood work done, and she texted me, “The blood work hurt my arm so much. My arm is just killing me, and so I bought myself an almond croissant to feel better.”Jennifer: Ah.Sarah: I said, “Great self-care.”Jennifer: Yes. Great self-care. At the same time, if that’s our only tool, then we’re in trouble. And so I think we have to kind of help our kids. I’m never down on somebody, or myself, for eating just for the purpose of feeling better or just for the purpose of enjoyment. We think about receiving meals from people in tricky times in our lives, or eating something that someone gives us even when we’re not hungry. It can still build connection and be such an uplifting experience.Sarah: Well, and food is so nurturing, too. Again, before we started our recording, I was telling you how my 22- and 25-year-olds, who don’t live at home anymore, I really use food as a way to show my care and love for them when they no longer, quote, “need it,” right? Like making them food.Once last year, I made a lasagna and took a picture of it and sent it to them and called it “son bait.”Jennifer: That’s right.Sarah: So yeah, food really is nurturing. And I think what I’ve come to think about it is, as long as you just don’t do that all the time, right? Have seconds when you’re not hungry because it’s your favorite food, as long as you don’t do that every single time you eat.Jennifer: Yeah. I think having the ability to be flexible goes so far in our well-being. When we’re really inflexible, sometimes our life circumstances call for inflexibility. If we have very tight deadlines for when we can eat and when we can’t eat, or maybe we’re working through a health issue or something like that where we just really have to be a little bit more mindful of what we’re eating, maybe we have a little bit less flexibility.But if we’re out of that season, we’re in a different time, then we can be more flexible during that time. I think the key is we’re not over-moralizing this experience. Instead, we’re enjoying it, we’re participating in it, and we’re learning to connect to real life, not just eating away all of our hard times or avoiding all of our hard emotions or things like that.Sarah: That makes so much sense. Okay, let’s shift gears a little bit. I’m talking to you—I know school has already started in some parts of the country, and it’s starting in the next few weeks in other parts of the country. And with school comes packed school lunches.Jennifer: Right.Sarah: And I think every parent out there is like, “Oh, I’ve got to start making lunches again.” So do you have any sort of hot tips for things that you find—are there ways to cut corners to pack lunches that kids will eat, that are healthy and nutritious, and also don’t take a ton of time or money to do?Jennifer: Sure. So when I’m packing lunches, first I just kind of start with the same formula, which is a protein food, an energy food—which is what I call a higher-starchy carbohydrate food—and then the color, the fruits or vegetables.If you want to really cut corners, get yourself a lunchbox that only has three containers. That’s one of my big tips. A lot of these fancy bento lunches have four, five, six containers of food, and then often people feel pressured to fill it with six different kinds of foods. That’s just a lot for you to think about. I have all the different lunchboxes because it’s part of my job, and we often send ones that have a few more compartments, but that can be stressful. I’ve definitely felt that, where I’m like, “Just give me three containers.”Also think, “Is there something that I can use from dinner or another meal that I made earlier in the week in this lunchbox?” The more you can incorporate that, the better. Or, if you can’t, see if you can make it during your dinner meal. When you’re already in the kitchen, things are already a mess. It might look like a bomb went off in your kitchen, where there’s a half-made lunchbox, there’s a half-made dinner, but if you’re the sort of person who can kind of manage that chaos, then do it then, because then you only have to clean up once. It’s already chaos; you’re just adding a little bit more chaos.And you can also train your kids to help you, depending on your kids, of course. That can be a way for them to help save time for you. And then also kind of lean into maybe a baby carrot or a cucumber that you just chop, chop, or stuff where you’re cutting it up but it doesn’t feel that hard for you.I think so much of what’s hard and easy—I was kind of talking to my Instagram audience about this recently—is individual. Making meatballs to me is a bridge too far. That just feels so hard and tedious. And a lot of people are like, “Oh my gosh, it feels so easy to me.” So I think a lot of this is what feels hard and what feels easy to you, and kind of run with that. Don’t compare your child’s lunchbox to everybody else’s.If your kid is going to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich every day, if you can send peanuts, or a sunflower seed butter and jelly sandwich every day, go ahead. Send them with the same lunch every day if they’re the kind of kid who just needs the same lunch every day. If your kid needs a different lunch every day, obviously that’s a little trickier.But also, if you can say, “Okay, can I use something from dinner?” that can really help. My kids have also learned that they kind of like soup at lunch, and I freeze it in one-cup segments, little portions. They know how to take it out of the freezer, put it in the microwave, heat it up, and put it in the thermos. That’s something that I was able to train them to do.So any prep that you can do outside of it, when you’re already doing something else, is just going to save you a little time. And then if you can also save time with cleanup by doing it at the same time as dinner, that can be really helpful. We have a whole bunch of under-15-minute lunches in my Everyday Lunches e-book, as well as mix-and-match guides.Sarah: Okay, nice.Jennifer: And they can be really fun. I think engaging your kids, too—finding out what are they going to actually eat, asking them questions. “Does this lunch look okay?” If it comes back uneaten, ask them what was wrong with it so that you can kind of iterate on lunches as well.Sarah: I once accidentally sent a thermos full of hot water with one of my kids to school. I forgot—I think it was probably macaroni and cheese that I was putting in it—and I forgot to put the macaroni and cheese in.Jennifer: Oh my gosh. There are so many times that I’ve messed up on lunches in one way or another. You do the best you can, you know?Sarah: Yeah. I mentioned before when we were talking about lunches that making food—and I’m somebody who cooks a lot, and I’ve made a lot of food for 25 or 26 years now with kids—it does take a lot of time and money and energy to make, I’m going to say, “nice food,” whatever that means to you. But the food you feel good about serving your family.If you’re short on time, money, energy, or one, two, or three of those things, what’s the best use of resources, do you think, for feeding families if you’re short on some of that stuff?Jennifer: First, go for frozen fruits and veggies. Just go right there, because that is no compromise whatsoever. It’s just a different form of the same food.Sarah: They’re often cheaper too, I find. Especially frozen fruit is a lot cheaper than fresh fruit.Jennifer: Yeah. Lean into that first. Also, find some cooking methods that are easy. The other day I put a bunch of chicken thighs in the Crock-Pot and poured some salsa over it. It was delicious at the end of the day. It took me five minutes, if that. I’m trying to think of what I served with it. I think it was leftover rice or something that was already leftover, something I could just quickly heat up in the microwave.I can’t remember what we did for veggies, but I could have also added on the side of that just a couple bags of frozen peas, and we would’ve been good, right? So some bread and some frozen peas. I had a meal that took me maybe 15 minutes to make, very economical. It’s really kind of looking for those time-saving prep methods and then saying, “Okay, what can we do?”Sarah: Yeah. One thing I always talk to overwhelmed parents about is trying to just really, really simplify dinner. Coming home, daycare pickup, everyone’s tired, blah, blah, blah. And I always have this funny story. Once when I was pregnant with my third, and my other two were two and five, my husband had an out-of-town job for four months, and I was in school full-time.Jennifer: Oh my God.Sarah: It was exhausting. And I would make eggs for dinner a lot.Jennifer: Oh my goodness, yes.Sarah: Eggs and baby carrots and toast were the go-to dinner, to the point where one Saturday morning I said to my sons, “Who wants some fried eggs for breakfast?” And my two-year-old said, “Silly Mommy, fried eggs are for dinner.”Jennifer: I love that. Oh my gosh, we went through years and years and years where at least once a week we had eggs and toast and baby carrots, or some microwave peas or something from the freezer.Canned soup is an okay dinner. There are so many things that I think people are feeling kind of hard on themselves about. Don’t listen to other people’s rules. What is working for you right now? Go with that.Sarah: Yeah, like pesto pasta and jarred spaghetti sauce and noodles and apple slices. And I think sometimes it’s hard for parents, too, because they like to cook and they want to make nice food for themselves, right? But something has to go.Jennifer: Yeah. Something’s gotta go, man. Making something nice for yourself—do it when you have a chance, but otherwise it’s okay to let that go for now. You’ll get it back.That’s the other thing. We feel like, “Oh, I don’t want to give up this part of myself.” You’re not giving it up. You’re just saying, “Hey, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to do other things right now, and then at a different stage I will do that again.” I’m actually cooking a lot better now that my kids aren’t holding onto my feet and fighting while I’m trying to cook.Well, they still do that, but they’re not really getting in the way of cooking. It’s so hard to cook with little kids around.Sarah: Totally.Jennifer: I always say I would notoriously let my kids make a huge mess while I was making dinner, and I call it a “time loan.” They’re making a huge mess, but I was able to actually get dinner on the table. I got that time, and then, yeah, I’ll have to pay it back. I’ll have to clean up their mess when they were really little, but it’s worth it.And I will also say, if you’re having a really hard time budget-wise, but you still have some time to cook, I have a meal plan that’s specifically designed to save money. It’s all about making the most of the food, using up all leftovers and preventing waste and all that, so that you can really spend significantly less—Sarah: Yeah, I think I saw that a few years ago. We’ll link to that. You’ve had it for a while, right? It’s called Affordable Flavors.Yeah, we’ll link to that in the show notes. One thing I’m just remembering that we did when my kids were little is there was another family—this woman who had kids around the same age—and we lived a few blocks away. Once a week, we would make double dinner and give it to the other one.Jennifer: I love that.Sarah: Yeah. She was Japanese and a really nice Japanese cook, and my kids actually, to be totally honest, weren’t huge fans of her dinners, but my husband and I certainly were.Jennifer: Oh, that’s great.Sarah: Yeah. But it was really nice. Once a week, you didn’t have to make anything because somebody gave you dinner. And it’s not very hard to make double of your own dinner. So if anyone has a neighbor that they could do that with, it was really a nice thing to do.Jennifer: Yeah. That’s a great idea.Sarah: Well, thank you so much. Tell us about your book launch. We’ll put any links in the show notes, but you told me before that you had some prizes and things for the pre-order.Jennifer: Yeah. So there are a bunch of pre-order bonuses. As soon as you buy the book, you can upload either your receipt or, let’s say you requested it from the library, you can upload just proof of that request. I have some printables—how to talk to kids about red foods, orange foods, yellow foods—that are super popular. I usually sell it, but I’m giving that away as a pre-order bonus.There are also mealtime conversation cards coming. There is a live call with my mom that I’m going to be doing that’s also recorded, so depending on when you hear this, it’s still available. There are also conversations like, what do you say if your kid comes back and says, “I’m fat”? What are some scripts? There are some scripts for that. There’s also my bedtime snack chart. There are a lot of tools where you’re like, “Okay, I want to make some improvements in different areas.” There are pre-order bonuses that give you tools for almost every area that you could want to apply.And then I’m also doing a really fun book tour where I’m meeting with child feeding and food specialists from all over the United States over time, and I’m going to be posting my interviews online for everybody to see. It’s almost like a short-term podcast kind of demo. It’s going to be a lot of fun for people to follow along.Sarah: Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. One last question, which I ask all my guests—and I’ve asked you this before, so I can go back and compare and see if you answer it the same way—which is: If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself? It can be about anything. It doesn’t have to be about food or feeding.Jennifer: Sure. So now that I’m 13 years in, I think the one thing that would’ve been so helpful for me to know is: It’s not my job to make my kid happy. It sounds so simple now, but I’m like, no, it wasn’t my job to try to make them stop crying. It was my job to just hold a boundary and be there.And when I stopped, when I just kind of let go of that idea of trying to make them happy, oh my gosh, the weight, the drama—it just went away. It’s like, “Oh, it’s okay for you to be unhappy. That’s you and your feelings over there, and I’m here to support. I’m here for you.” And also, it’s not my job to fix that.Sarah: Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much. Best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?Jennifer: Kids Eat in Color, whether that’s kidsincolor.com or on your favorite social media. I’m there.Sarah: All right. Thank you so much, Jennifer.Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, my guest is therapist Morgan Pommells. We explore the lasting impact of having an emotionally immature parent (EIP), including how to begin healing and how we can break the cycle with our own kids. We also talk about boundaries with our EIP parent, why children's big emotions aren't personal attacks, and what every child truly needs to thrive.Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.We talk about:00:00 – Introduction to Morgan Pommells02:30 – What is an emotionally immature parent?07:15 – Emotional immaturity vs. narcissism: What’s the difference?09:00 – Why emotionally immature parents are often critical10:30 – The biggest impact on children: Growing up without a strong sense of self12:00 – How childhood with an EIP affects adult relationships and self-worth, and our own parenting15:30 – Healing from emotionally immature parenting18:30 – Why your child’s big emotions are actually a sign of safety19:00 – Navigating relationships with emotionally immature parents as an adult27:00 – Teaching children that feelings aren’t dangerous27:45 – Emotionally immature grandparents: Do the patterns continue?29:15 – The power of delighting in your child32:45 – What if your parenting partner is emotionally immature?35:00 – The parenting mistake we all make: Taking children’s emotions personally36:00 – Morgan’s advice for every parent: Heal your own wounds before they parent your children38:00 – Where to find Morgan and closing thoughtsResources mentioned in this episode:* Morgan’s Masterclass Protect Your Peace * Morgan’s IG @morganpommellsConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the fall for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.Today’s guest is Morgan Pommells. Morgan is a therapist and coach who helps the adult children of emotionally immature parents stop seeing themselves through their parents’ eyes and finally come home to who they really are.Morgan and I discuss what an emotionally immature parent is, how that is—and isn’t—different from narcissism, and how people grow up to parent this way. Morgan also shares how having an emotionally immature parent affects us as children, how it continues to affect us once we’ve grown up, and how we can heal from having been raised by an emotionally immature parent.We also talk about the opposite of emotionally immature parenting and what our kids need in order to grow up whole and healthy.Morgan has so much wisdom, and so much of our work overlaps. I think you’re going to learn a lot from this conversation, and I think you’re really going to enjoy it.If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can also help us out by leaving a five-star rating and review in your podcast app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode.Let’s meet Morgan.Sarah: Hi, Morgan. Welcome to the podcast.Morgan: Hi! Thank you for having me.Sarah: I’m so glad to have you on. We’ve been trying to schedule this for a while, and I think this is such an important topic for parents. I’m so glad we finally got to sit down and have this conversation.Morgan: Me too. It’s a super important topic for parents.Sarah: Tell us a little about who you are and what you do.Morgan: I’m a therapist and coach in Ontario, Canada, and I specialize exclusively in working with the adult children of emotionally immature parents. Whether that’s through workshops or one-to-one work, everything I do revolves around helping people heal from having emotionally immature parents.Sarah: So tell us: what is an emotionally immature parent?Morgan: Great question.An emotionally immature parent is someone who really struggles to manage their own painful internal emotions. Those emotions tend to spill out onto everyone around them instead of being worked through internally. These are parents who might struggle with shame, rage, or fear of abandonment, and instead of taking responsibility for those feelings and working through them themselves, they become everyone else’s problem.They take those emotions out on their children. They may recruit their children into never leaving them because they’re terrified of being abandoned. The child becomes responsible for soothing and managing the parent’s anxiety, which is really the opposite of what a healthy parent-child relationship is meant to be.Sarah: Yeah.What causes somebody... I guess you don’t become emotionally immature—you just never emotionally mature. What causes that lack of emotional maturation? How does somebody become an emotionally immature parent?Morgan: There are a couple of different pathways.A lot of emotionally immature parents have their own relational trauma. If we experience something deeply overwhelming at a young age and don’t have the capacity to metabolize it at the time, we can become emotionally stuck there. Our biological age keeps moving forward, but our emotional development doesn’t necessarily come with us. Our emotional defenses stay frozen at that younger age.In other cases, someone may have had the capacity to become emotionally mature, but emotional immaturity was all that was ever modeled for them. They don’t have another template. They don’t know a different kind of parenting exists because they’re simply working from the script they inherited.Sarah: So far we’ve been talking about this in psychological terms, but what does that actually look like in real life?Let’s focus on an adult child. What would a familiar interaction look like between an emotionally immature parent and their grown child?Morgan: One of the biggest dynamics is fear of abandonment.When their child grows up, goes away to university, finds a partner, or simply starts building their own life, emotionally immature parents can become very controlling. They can become very mean. They can use shame to pull their child back toward them and keep them emotionally close because they’re so afraid of being abandoned.When children are younger, it usually looks like a lot of control. That parent has a tremendous amount of fear and anxiety, but instead of working through it themselves, they try to control their child. As a result, the parent feels safer, but the child feels controlled and suffocated.Sarah: So they’re almost externalizing their own feelings?They feel scared, so they make their child feel scared? Or is that too simplified?Morgan: No, in some cases that’s exactly what’s happening.If you have a parent who’s very anxious or very fearful, it can actually feel safer if everyone around them is afraid too. You don’t want to be the only person who’s scared of the big, bad threat you believe is coming. So if you can get everyone else to be afraid, at least you have company in that fear.When children are younger, though, it often looks a little different. A parent might be deeply worried about how their child is doing at school or how they’re perceived by other people, so they try to control what the child says, wears, or does because that helps soothe the parent’s own fear.Sarah: So that’s because they’re worried about what people think of their child because it reflects back on them?Morgan: Yes, that’s certainly part of it.There can be a real element of impression management with emotionally immature parents. Many of them are very concerned with how they appear to other people. Sometimes they experienced a genuine threat in their own childhood because some important family rule was broken. As a result, they become determined that their own child will never break that same rule because they believe that’s what keeps both of them safe.Sarah: I also think it’s about attachment.If people don’t think well of you, then you don’t get your needs met.Morgan: Exactly.If someone doesn’t think well of you, if they see you as a threat, or if they see you as different, that can feel incredibly dangerous.Emotionally immature parents tend to like sameness. They want their children to think the same way they do and view the world the same way they do. They often use different techniques to influence their child’s thinking because differences feel threatening.Ultimately, we’re talking about people who are acting from a deep desire to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. The tragedy is that the methods they use to create that safety can be profoundly damaging to their children.Sarah: How is this different from narcissism—or is it?Morgan: That’s a huge question.You can absolutely have an emotionally immature parent who is also quite narcissistic, but you can also have an emotionally immature parent who isn’t narcissistic at all.A narcissistic personality structure is just one presentation. Another emotionally immature parent might be incredibly anxious. There are different expressions of emotional immaturity, so it isn’t an either-or situation.It’s also important to remember that emotional immaturity exists on a spectrum. You can have very mild emotional immaturity—and, honestly, all of us demonstrate emotional immaturity at certain moments in our lives. Then, at the more severe end of the spectrum, you might see something like narcissistic personality disorder, where someone relies heavily on emotionally immature defenses.So it isn’t that emotional immaturity and narcissism are the same thing. Narcissism is one possible way emotional immaturity can present, but it’s certainly not the only one.Sarah: Are there people who are emotionally immature all the time?Morgan: Yes. When we talk about EIPs—emotionally immature parents—we’re talking about people for whom emotional immaturity is the rule rather than the exception.All of us are going to have emotionally immature moments. Usually, those happen when something feels very threatening because we’re trying to keep ourselves safe. We want control in that moment. One very common emotionally immature defense is denial. Think about hearing that someone has passed away. One of the first things people often say is, “No.” That’s denial. We’re trying to metabolize something incredibly painful.But those are moments. They’re moments we can eventually reflect on, learn from, and grow through. We can become more emotionally mature if we choose to do that. With emotionally immature parents, though, emotional immaturity isn’t just a reaction to certain situations—it’s their baseline, regardless of the context or the type of threat they’re facing.Sarah: That makes sense.One thing you talk about is emotionally immature parents being critical. Tell me about the critical parent.Morgan: There are really two different versions of that.One type of emotionally immature parent is highly critical because they’re deeply afraid that their child won’t be okay if they don’t follow the parent’s rules. They believe, “You need to get into a really good university. You need a really good job. You need perfect manners because otherwise people will be mean to you. They won’t give you opportunities.” Underneath all of that criticism is genuine terror and, in many cases, genuine love for their child. The problem is that the way they’re trying to soothe that fear creates rupture and disconnection in the relationship.Then there’s another group of emotionally immature parents who have internalized a tremendous amount of self-hatred through their own trauma. They don’t know how to metabolize that pain because growing up hating yourself is incredibly painful. Instead, they project it onto their child.They might notice a quality in their child that reminds them of something they’ve decided is ugly or unacceptable in themselves. It can actually feel satisfying to try to eliminate that quality in their child through criticism or shame—to make sure their child never becomes that way. In those cases, the criticism is really an expression of their own self-hatred.Sarah: What are the effects on a child growing up with an emotionally immature parent?Morgan: By far, the biggest effect is a lack of sense of self.These are children who never really had the opportunity to discover who they are because they didn’t have a parent who was deeply curious about them. They didn’t have a parent who took a genuine interest in them, asked meaningful questions, or reflected their inner world back to them.As children, we develop our identity in relationship with another person. We need someone to act as a mirror. But for the adult children of emotionally immature parents, you don’t receive a mirror—you receive a distortion.Instead of hearing, “Tell me about yourself,” or, “I want to understand you,” you hear messages like, “There’s something wrong with you,” “I’m not interested in you,” or, “Your thoughts are weird, wrong, or shameful.” Over time, your sense of self becomes organized around those messages.Sometimes the experience isn’t criticism so much as neglect. In those cases, it’s not even that you grow up believing you’re bad or shameful. You grow up feeling like you barely exist. Like you aren’t even a full person.At the core of this wound is not really knowing who you are.Sarah: Obviously that’s painful in and of itself, but how does that affect someone’s adult life?How does it show up in the choices we make, the relationships we enter into, or the partners we choose? And maybe that’s actually a separate question, but I’m also curious about how growing up with an emotionally immature parent affects the way we parent our own children.Morgan: They’re really connected.The first thing is that when you reach adulthood without a solid sense of self, there’s almost this hunger inside you—a hunger that never feels fully satisfied. You don’t really know what you want. Sometimes you think you know what you want, and then you finally achieve it, only to discover it doesn’t feel the way you expected because something more fundamental is missing.There’s this constant sense of never quite arriving.Without a strong sense of self, it’s also much easier to end up in unhealthy or even abusive relationships. If you don’t know who you are, how do you know what you want? How do you know what’s safe? How do you know what your needs are? How do you stay connected to yourself?Instead, many people become what we often call codependent. They become incredibly focused on making sure everyone else is okay. They’re wonderful caretakers, but meanwhile, none of their own needs are being met. Their own joy, happiness, and sense of aliveness get left behind.There’s a deep emptiness because there’s nothing inside that feels solid enough to connect with.Sarah: What about parenting? How does this affect the way we parent our own children?Morgan: Growing up with an emotionally immature parent affects parenting in so many different ways.For one thing, if you don’t have a strong sense of self, it’s easy to make parenting your entire identity. It becomes, “I’m just a mom,” or, “I’m just a dad,” as though there’s nothing else to you beyond that role.But another really important piece is that emotionally immature parents tend to have very rigid rules. They hold strong expectations, and they genuinely believe terrible things will happen if those rules are broken.If you grow up in that environment—especially without a strong sense of self—you internalize those rules. You come to believe that’s simply how the world works.Then you become a parent, your children start doing what children naturally do, and they break those rules. They talk back. They get angry. They push limits. Those are completely developmentally appropriate behaviors, but they activate tremendous fear inside you.You don’t necessarily realize that’s what’s happening. You may even feel your reactions are completely justified. But underneath those reactions is the terror you learned as a child. Because those behaviors weren’t allowed in your own home, seeing your children do them feels profoundly threatening.Without realizing it, you begin responding to your child as though they’re doing something terribly wrong.Sarah: I see that all the time with the parents I work with.If your child does something that would have been dangerous for you to do as a child—whether literally dangerous or emotionally dangerous—it becomes a huge trigger.Your five-year-old self is saying, “Kids aren’t allowed to do that. Kids shouldn’t do that. If you do that, you’re not going to get the love you need.”Morgan: Exactly.Your nervous system remembers, “Bad things happen when this happens.”Another piece of this wound is that we often don’t realize we’ve grown up. A part of us still feels eight years old.So when your own child is screaming, getting angry, or breaking the rules, part of your body reacts as though you’re the child who’s about to get in trouble. It says, “We’re not allowed to do this. Last time this happened, I got hurt. You need to stop. You need to be quiet.”The difference is that now we’re the adult. We’re bigger. We’re more powerful. So we may respond with that same power to shut our child down.For many parents, that reaction comes from a very real place of, “I get hurt when people scream. I get hurt when these rules are broken. This has to stop.”Sarah: Yeah. Shut it down.How does someone heal from having been raised by an emotionally immature parent? I realize that’s your life’s work, so it’s not a simple question, but where does healing begin?Morgan: The biggest thing to understand is that this is a relational trauma, so it has to heal in the context of relationship.As a therapist, I’m obviously biased toward therapy, but healing can happen through a coaching relationship, a healthy romantic relationship, or any relationship that offers consistent corrective experiences.We need experiences where we express our emotions and someone stays. We need experiences where we express a need and someone genuinely wants to meet that need.We have to update the template.Insight alone isn’t enough. Reading about it isn’t enough. We actually have to experience someone caring about us.Sarah: So it’s almost like reprogramming.Morgan: Exactly.It’s a real reprogramming process.Our children can certainly be part of that healing journey, but they can’t become the people who heal us. We have to be very careful not to recruit them into that role.Sarah: Can we heal ourselves by being a different parent to our children than we had? Do you know what I mean? Can it work in that direction? Could that be part of the healing process?Morgan: Absolutely. There is something deeply healing about getting down on your child’s level and offering them the validation that you never received yourself.At the same time, we have to be very careful not to parent our children as though they needed the parent that we needed.Sarah: Because they’re their own people.Morgan: Exactly. They’re their own people. They need the parent they need.If we get caught in the idea that, “I just need to give my children what I never had,” we actually end up missing a lot about who our child is. We stop learning about them because we’ve already decided what they need. We think, “They’re crying because of this,” or, “They’re upset with me because of that,” or, “They’re struggling in school because of this. I know exactly what’s happening because this is what I didn’t get, so I’ll just keep doing the opposite.”Meanwhile, our children are giving us a million different communications about who they are, what they’re feeling, and what’s actually going on for them, and we’re missing all of it because we’re so committed to this one version of parenting.Sarah: I also find it can make parents pretty reactive.I work with a lot of parents who grew up with neglect. They’re actually wonderful parents, but then their child behaves like a perfectly typical five-year-old and, internally, they’re thinking, “Wait a minute. I’m giving you everything I never got. How can you still be crying, yelling, and telling me I’m the worst mother in the world?”Their own experience of believing, “If only I’d had this...” creates an unrealistic expectation of how their child should behave.Morgan: Totally.Where there’s been a lot of neglect, there’s often an internalized rule that says, “Don’t be seen. Don’t be heard. Be quiet. Take up as little space as possible.”So when your own child takes up a lot of space—expressing big emotions, having big reactions—that can feel incredibly frightening.What we don’t realize in those moments is that your child’s willingness to express their feelings, even to tell you they hate you, is actually a sign that they feel safe enough to do that.It’s not your job to talk them out of their feelings. It’s your job to help them metabolize those feelings—to help make those emotions digestible for them—rather than trying to change them or shame them out of having them. They don’t need you to erase their feelings. They need you to help them move through them.Sarah: In peaceful parenting, we talk about welcoming feelings.What about maintaining a relationship with an emotionally immature parent? I actually kind of know the answer because I’ve taken your masterclass. What’s it called again?Morgan: Protect Your Peace.Sarah: Protect Your Peace. Yes. It’s wonderful. We’ll link to it because I recommend it for everyone.But how do you think about having—or not having—a relationship with an emotionally immature parent?Morgan: It really depends on whether you genuinely want that relationship.Emotionally immature parents often raise their children using obligation and guilt, so you grow up without even realizing that you have choices. You’re recruited into following their expectations, and then one day you become an adult and realize you actually don’t enjoy this relationship with your parent—or maybe you don’t even want one—but it doesn’t feel like that’s an option.So the first step is taking it up with yourself.Do I actually want this relationship? And if I do, why?Not from a place of pressure or with some hidden agenda. Even when people come to work with me one-on-one, unless someone is experiencing ongoing abuse, I don’t have an opinion about whether they should stay in contact with their parent. The healing work is learning to reconnect with your own sense of self, your own needs, and your own desires. I’m not going to become another authority figure telling someone what they should do.Instead, I encourage people to ask themselves, “If I do want this relationship, what do I want it to look like?”Boundaries don’t really exist in emotionally immature family systems. If you grew up with an emotionally immature parent, chances are you struggle with boundaries. So I ask people to imagine what it would look like if they actually got to customize this relationship.Would you call as often as you do now? Would you attend every family gathering? Would you have a separate phone number just for them? What would you put in place to protect yourself while still maintaining the relationship, if that’s what you genuinely wanted?Sarah: Because there may be reasons to continue the relationship.Maybe you have a wonderful relationship with your other parent and you want to preserve that. I can imagine there are very thoughtful—not in a negative sense, but very intentional—reasons someone might choose to stay in a relationship they otherwise wouldn’t.Morgan: One hundred percent.And sometimes people don’t really have a choice. They may still be living with their parents. There may be financial realities to consider.There’s also a very real psychological cost to going no-contact with a parent. It’s not an easy decision, even though a lot of online conversations make it sound simple. For the adult children of emotionally immature parents, that decision is often something they’ve wrestled with internally for years before they even consider it.Most people don’t want to jump straight to no contact.Instead, they’ll often begin by saying, “Let me see what happens if I put some boundaries in place first. If I’m going to have this relationship, here’s what I need it to look like.”Sarah: Can you give an example of what one of those boundaries or parameters might look like?Morgan: Sure.It might be something like, “I’ll have one twenty-minute phone call every Sunday.” Or, “I don’t answer the phone during my workday because I’m working.”Some people even block their parent’s number and only unblock it when they’re ready to call. Others use a second phone line app where all of their parent’s texts and calls go, but they turn off the notifications so they only check it when they choose to.Boundaries can also involve where you go and what you participate in. Do you attend every wedding? Every Christmas dinner? Every family event?Or they might involve what happens when you’re together. Maybe you’ve decided that if a certain topic comes up, you’ll say, “I don’t want to talk about that.” If your parent continues, you might say, “If we’re going to keep talking about this, I’m going to leave.” And if they continue, you actually leave.That’s what makes it a boundary—you follow through.Ultimately, it comes back to recognizing that this is someone you don’t feel emotionally or psychologically safe around. Once you accept that, it becomes much easier to ask yourself what you need in order to protect your peace.People start realizing things like, “I don’t want to discuss this topic,” or, “I don’t want to stay on the phone for an hour because all they do is talk at me,” or, “I can’t answer calls in the middle of my workday.” Once you start giving yourself permission to prioritize your own safety, those answers often become surprisingly clear.Sarah: And just to be clear, I know this is what you mean, but for anyone listening, a boundary is something you do. It’s not something you make another person do.Morgan: Exactly.A boundary is really an if-then statement.“If you continue criticizing my body, then I’m going to leave.”Sarah: Right. The boundary isn’t, “You’re not allowed to criticize my body,” because you can’t control another person. You can only decide what you’re going to do if they continue.Morgan: Exactly. We have zero control over another person’s behavior.Once we reconnect with ourselves, we stop asking, “How do I make my parent stop doing this?” and start asking, “Given that I can’t control them, what control do I actually have?”I can hang up the phone. I can leave. I can tell them I didn’t appreciate what they said. I can choose not to attend the next family event. I can change the subject.It’s always about what I’m going to do rather than trying to control someone else.Sarah: Do you ever see emotionally immature parents genuinely change?Morgan: Is it common? No.Does it happen? Absolutely.I’ve seen it happen in my own practice, and I’ve had clients tell me about meaningful changes they’ve experienced with their parents.If someone is on the milder end of emotional immaturity and they truly realize they’re at risk of losing their relationship with their children, some parents do choose to go to therapy. They do the work. They genuinely try to repair.But, in my experience, they’re the minority.It takes an enormous amount of self-awareness. It requires being willing to recognize that you’ve caused harm.Sarah: Which is exactly what’s so difficult in the first place, right? That lack of self-awareness is part of what created the problem.Morgan: Exactly.It’s a lack of self-awareness, but it’s also a lack of capacity to tolerate being the “bad guy.”Emotionally immature parents often play a game of trying to identify who the bad person is, and somehow it’s always someone else.When their adult child says, “You really hurt me when you did this,” or, “I’m still struggling because of the way you treated me growing up,” some parents become incredibly skilled at finding explanations for why it wasn’t actually their fault—why circumstances made them do it, or why the child was really the problem.Those are parents who, at least in that moment, aren’t able to repair because they simply can’t tolerate the idea that they’ve done something wrong.There can be an enormous amount of shame underneath that, especially if they’re already carrying years of unresolved shame from their own childhood experiences.It takes a tremendous amount of emotional capacity to stay present with that and choose repair instead.Sarah: One thing I saw on your Instagram really caught my attention. You were talking about how people often say, “Well, I was doing the best I could,” and you took issue with that.I always teach that people are doing the best they can. That’s genuinely a philosophy I hold. But I would add, “Sometimes your best still wasn’t good enough.”Would you agree with that?Morgan: One hundred percent.The issue I take with the phrase, “They were doing the best they could,” or, “I was doing the best I could,” is that, all of a sudden, we’ve left the adult child’s experience and shifted entirely into the parent’s experience.The child has just brought you mountains of pain about things you’ve done, and suddenly the conversation becomes a justification. It becomes a rationalization. We’re no longer learning anything about the child’s experience because the conversation has been shut down by the statement, “I was doing the best I could.”In that moment, it isn’t actually helpful. It’s functioning to protect the parent, which is exactly what that family system has always been organized around.At its core, it’s almost a semantic argument. What does “doing your best” actually mean? Is it Olympic-level effort every single day? That’s not really the point.The point is that we’ve once again centered the parent’s experience and stopped being curious about the child’s.Sarah: Right. I think if a parent could say, “I did the best I could, and I realize it wasn’t good enough,” that could actually be very healing for everyone involved.Morgan: Totally.As long as the next sentence is, “Tell me more... and I can take it.”That’s really the crucial part.More than anything else, children need to know that their parent can survive their feelings. Whether a parent is emotionally immature or not, if a child grows up believing, “My parent can handle my emotions,” that child is much more likely to become emotionally healthy.Too often, though, emotionally immature parents experience their child’s feelings as personal attacks. The child learns that their parent can’t survive those feelings.And if Mom can’t survive my anger, or Dad can’t survive my frustration, then how am I supposed to survive these enormous feelings?Sarah: That makes so much sense.That’s exactly what we teach in peaceful parenting, too—that by staying grounded when our children have big emotions, we’re teaching them that feelings aren’t emergencies. They learn emotional regulation by watching us not become overwhelmed by their feelings.Tell me about emotionally immature parents as grandparents. Do you see the same patterns showing up, or is the relationship with grandchildren different?Morgan: In my experience, emotionally immature parents often try much harder with their grandchildren.Sometimes I think that’s still connected to image management. They want to be seen as the wonderful grandparent. But they’re also older by that stage, and grandchildren represent something of a fresh start.Here’s someone who doesn’t yet have years of hurt or disappointment with them. Here’s another opportunity to be liked, to be admired, to build a relationship. So I often see them showing up with more effort and a little more tolerance than they had with their own children. They also tend to feel less threatened because these aren’t their children to raise.That said, many adult children become very protective of their own kids. They may decide, “Even if you’re somewhat better than you used to be, you still aren’t emotionally safe for my child.”Sarah: Right. They’re still centering themselves.Morgan: Exactly.It’s still coming from a place of wanting to be seen as a certain kind of grandparent. Sometimes grandchildren become another bargaining chip—another thing the adult child supposedly owes them. Access to the grandchildren becomes another arena where the family drama can play out.Sarah: Yeah. Holy heck.You and I both talk about delighting in your child.When I teach it, I explain that children learn to see themselves through our eyes, and delight is also such a powerful way to build connection. For anyone listening who hasn’t heard either of us talk about it, I describe it as letting the love you already feel in your heart actually show on your face.Talk to me about the role delight plays in your work.Morgan: This is something that the adult children of emotionally immature parents yearn for more than almost anything else—to simply be delighted in.For me, delight looks like a parent who genuinely wonders about their child. A parent who lets themselves be amazed by who their child is, especially in the places where that child is different from them.Imagine an incredibly athletic parent raising a deeply artistic child. Instead of trying to change them, that parent watches with curiosity and wonder. They’re moved by who their child naturally is.That communicates something incredibly powerful: You matter to me exactly as you are.There’s no agenda. There’s no performance required. Your authentic, messy, imperfect self moves me.Every child needs that experience because it’s permission to keep exploring who they are. It’s permission to feel worthy of love, connection, and care. It creates this deeply rooted sense of, “I belong here. I exist. Who I am is good enough for this world.”That’s the template we want our children growing up with.For emotionally immature parents, that kind of delight can feel threatening because it requires surrendering control. But it’s really the sweetest part of parenting. It’s what children are longing for at their core.Sarah: It’s the best.There’s a quote—I think it’s from Pam Leo—that says every child needs to know there’s one person who thinks they’re the sun, the moon, and the stars all wrapped up into one wonderful human being.Sometimes parents ask me, “Shouldn’t my child have a more realistic understanding of how the world works?”And I always tell them, “The world will teach them that. You don’t have to.”Morgan: Exactly.The world is going to be hard enough. Your child doesn’t need you to prepare them by becoming another source of that hardness.They’re going to encounter disappointment, rejection, and criticism out in the world. What they need is a safe place to come back to.Knowing there’s always someone in their corner allows them to face that big, scary world much more confidently. Eventually, it isn’t even a conscious thought of, “If everything falls apart, I can always go home.”Instead, it becomes a felt sense.“I’ll be okay.”That feeling becomes woven into who they are because, throughout their life, someone consistently had their back.Sarah: I’ve interviewed several adults on the podcast who were bullied as children.One man told me, “My parents loved me so much. I always knew they liked me. They genuinely thought I was wonderful.”He said he was bullied terribly, especially in middle school, but it never really damaged his self-esteem because he always had that foundation at home. His parents carried him through those experiences, and they didn’t leave lasting scars.Morgan: That gives me goosebumps.I work with so many childhood trauma survivors and adult children of emotionally immature parents who say something very different. They’ll tell me, “I know my parent loved me, but I never felt like they liked me.”They felt looked at with disgust, contempt, disappointment, or criticism. They didn’t feel enjoyed.Being liked by your parent is profoundly different from simply being loved by them.I completely agree with your guest. There really is something deeply protective—almost insulating—about growing up knowing your parent genuinely likes who you are.Sarah: What if you recognize that your partner is an emotionally immature parent?Morgan: The first step is to honestly assess the capacity for communication within the relationship.Like we’ve talked about, all of us have emotionally immature moments. That’s why these conversations are worth having. You want to be on the same page about parenting. How are we going to respond when our child has big emotions? What are we going to do when discipline is needed? Can we agree on the kind of parents we want to be?The way your partner responds to those conversations gives you important information.If you’re consistently met with defensiveness, denial, minimization, or ridicule, that may be a sign that couples therapy would be helpful, assuming you’re continuing the relationship.At the same time, your responsibility is to protect your child. You want to make sure that, regardless of what’s happening elsewhere, your child feels emotionally safe with you.It always begins with trying to have those conversations and seeing whether your partner demonstrates a willingness to grow in emotional maturity—or whether you’re continually running into defenses and distortions that make genuine change very difficult.Sarah: Is it possible for one parent’s influence to be enough to protect a child from the other parent’s influence?Morgan: “Enough” is an interesting word because I’d want to know what metric we’re using.Is one emotionally healthy parent better than none? Absolutely. Without question.If a child has even one safe base, that alone provides an incredible amount of protection. It creates a buffer. It creates insulation.That doesn’t mean the other parent’s emotional immaturity won’t affect them. It certainly can.But we also know that one of the biggest factors in whether a painful experience becomes traumatic isn’t just what happened—it’s whether there’s anyone afterward to help you process it. Trauma isn’t only about going through something painful. It’s also about having no one afterward to help you make sense of it, regulate it, or feel supported through it.So if a child has one parent who can help them process what happened, who can reconnect with them after those difficult moments, they’re in a much better position.Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.Okay, what should I have asked you that I didn’t? Is there anything important we missed?Morgan: One thing I’m often talking about is helping parents stop taking their child’s emotions as personal attacks.Parents frequently make these automatic connections: My child is angry, therefore they’re being disrespectful. Or, My child is shutting down, therefore I’m a bad mom or dad.The reality is that children have a million different reasons for feeling what they’re feeling.It’s incredibly helpful if, in those moments, you can temporarily remove yourself from the equation. Instead of immediately assuming it’s about you, get curious. Stay with your child. Ask questions. Try to understand what’s happening in their world before creating a story about what’s happening in yours.We often assume we already know why our child feels the way they do, but we usually don’t.Step into their world with curiosity instead.If it is about you, and you’re a safe parent, they’ll tell you.Then you can take that information up with yourself, talk about it together, and repair if necessary. But first, we have to give children the freedom to have their feelings.That’s incredibly important.Sarah: That’s beautiful.Our work is so aligned. I’m really grateful you came on the podcast today. I’m sure parents are going to learn a lot from this conversation and want to learn more.Where’s the best place for people to find you and your work?Morgan: You can find me on Instagram at @morganpommells. My last name is spelled P-O-M-M-E-L-L-S.Come on over. We talk about emotionally immature parents all the time.Sarah: We’ll put all the links in the show notes, including your masterclass.Is that available all the time now?Morgan: Yes. Protect Your Peace is available anytime.Sarah: Perfect.Okay, final question.What’s one thing you wish every parent knew?Morgan: I wish every parent knew that they need to work their own s**t out, or else their s**t is going to raise their kids.More often than not, the reaction you’re having, the story you’re telling yourself, the urgency you feel to immediately fix or stop something—that’s about your stuff.Before turning toward your child, pause and turn toward yourself first.Ask yourself, What just happened inside me? Why is this particular behavior so triggering? Why is this reaction bringing up something so intense?That’s incredibly important data about you. In that moment, it’s usually much more about you than it is about your child.Sarah: It’s so hard because I think a lot of people believe they’ve already done a tremendous amount of personal work before they have kids.But in my own experience, and from years of coaching parents, there’s a whole layer you simply can’t access until you become a parent.My husband and I were talking about this the other day. We had our first child when we were thirty, and we’ve often joked that if we’d started younger, maybe we would’ve had more children.He said, “I don’t know. I probably needed more time to work on my stuff.”And I said, “I don’t actually think your stuff would’ve shown up. Whether we’d had kids at twenty-five, thirty-five, or forty, there’s a whole layer that simply doesn’t emerge until you become a parent.”Morgan: Exactly.The portal hasn’t been unlocked yet.Parenthood opens an entirely different window into yourself. It activates parts of you that often stay completely dormant until you have children.There are aspects of yourself that may never become activated at all if you don’t become a parent. Parenting has a unique way of bringing those hidden parts to the surface.Sarah: Think of all those blissfully happy people out there without children who don’t even know what their issues are.Morgan: They’re living a very blissful life.Sarah: Well, thank you so much, Morgan. It’s been such a pleasure.We’ll put links to all of your work in the show notes, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

👉 Before we get started- On Wednesday, I’m hosting a live workshop called When You Know Better, but Still Yell, where we focus on understanding what happens in those moments and how to interrupt yelling and repair without shame. If that sounds supportive to you, you can find more information at reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop.Now the episode!! You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Hunter Clarke-Fields, the host of the Mindful Mama Podcast and author of the book Raising Good Humans. We discussed taking care of difficult feelings including how blocking our feelings can backfire and the role mindfulness plays in accepting and working through our own and our children’s feelings.**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!We talk about:* 00:00:35 — Guest intro: Hunter Clarke-Fields (Raising Good Humans, Mindful Mama Podcast)* 00:01:00 — Big feelings as the root of so many parenting struggles + why willpower isn’t enough* 00:04:00 — Hunter’s background: mindfulness, sensitivity, and parenting an intense child* 00:10:00 — Two common coping patterns: blocking feelings vs flooding (and why both backfire)* 00:21:00 — Mindful acceptance: what it is + how allowing feelings helps them move through* 00:27:00 — Reflective listening + “name it to tame it” (why labeling feelings lowers intensity)* 00:31:40 — Co-regulation in action: a real-life story of staying steady with a dysregulated teen* 00:38:10 — Takeaways + where to find Hunter + workshop reminder + closingResources mentioned in this episode:* Workshop: When You Know Better but Still Yell Workshop* Evelyn & Bobbie bras* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Hunter’s website* Raising Good HumansConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Our sponsors:YOTO: YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREEvelyn & Bobbie bras: If underwires make you want to rip your bra off by noon, Evelyn & Bobbie is for you. These bras are wire-free, ultra-soft, and seriously supportive—designed to hold you comfortably all day without pinching, poking, or constant adjusting. Check them out HEREPodcast transcript:Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Hunter Clark Fields. She’s a mindfulness teacher and parenting expert, host of the Mindful Mama Podcast, and author of the book Raising Good Humans. We focused our conversation today around taking care of difficult feelings—both yours and your child’s.So often, big feelings are the cause of parenting challenges and friction in our families. Hunter shared some great strategies for how to make these moments that happen every day more tolerable, and even how our lives get better when we learn to accept our own feelings and our child’s feelings.And don’t worry if you’re like me and you sort of shut down when someone starts telling you that you should have a mindfulness practice. You can use Hunter’s suggestions even if you know that meditation isn’t necessarily in your future.Interestingly, one thing Hunter and I spoke about is that you can’t stay calm or not yell in difficult situations just by willpower. It’s not just a choice we make—how to react in difficult situations. If you’re listening to this and recognizing yourself, especially that gap between knowing what you want to do and what actually happens when things get intense, I want you to know that you’re not alone.On Wednesday, I’m teaching a live workshop called When You Know Better but Still Yell. We’ll focus on regulation and repair in real, everyday parenting moments—without shaming yourself or forcing calm. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop.Okay, let’s meet Hunter.Sarah: Hi, Hunter. Welcome to the podcast.Hunter: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I’m glad to be here.Sarah: It’s nice to connect. I loved your book, Raising Good Humans. I was going to hold up mine—yours is behind you there. There’s some really valuable stuff in it around being the peaceful parent that we want to be. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do before we get started?Hunter: Sure. I’m a mom of two daughters and a podcaster. I’ve been podcasting the Mindful Mama Podcast for a long time. I guess I like to talk, and I’m fascinated by people. I’ve been a student of mindfulness for many, many years, and a student of parenting because it was something I was very much struggling with.So that’s me in a nutshell. I’m also really passionate about Scottish country dance. We used to have paintings and galleries, and I was a passionate painter—so there are lots of different things happening.Sarah: I love that. Are you Scottish?Hunter: A little bit by heritage, yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Hunter: Hunter is actually a Scottish last name. My maternal grandfather’s maternal grandfather’s last name was Donald Hunter.Sarah: Oh, that’s cool. What came first—the mindfulness? Were you already a student of mindfulness when you became a parent, or did you turn to mindfulness when you found parenting to be challenging?Hunter: Both. I was already a student of mindfulness. I started reading about mindfulness when I was a teenager, because I’ve always been a highly sensitive person. So I would have big ups and downs, and corresponding pits that I would fall into. I started reading about mindfulness, and I kept reading and reading, and it did help to read.Then, maybe about ten years into my reading journey, I started an actual sitting meditation practice, and lo and behold, that helped a lot more than just reading about it. It really changed things for me. I used to fall into these pits of feeling like the world was overwhelming and feeling like I couldn’t handle life. That stopped happening. I had difficult feelings, but I wasn’t floored by them, grounded by them, or left incapacitated by them. That was a big change for me.That happened maybe two years before I got pregnant with my first child. I remember being pregnant with Maggie and sitting in a meditation group with my big pregnant belly, patting myself on the back and thinking, “Oh, this is going to be great. This child is going to be so calm. Everything is going to be so awesome because we’re doing this meditation practice.” And it’s like—ugh. Right. Life kind of slaps you in the face and says, “You think you know what’s going to happen? That’s right. No, you don’t.”Sarah: And the best parents are always the ones who don’t have kids, right? You always think, “This is how I’m going to do things when I’m a parent.” I remember when I was in my twenties, I was a Montessori assistant, and I remember thinking, “Oh my God, these parents are so crazy and intense.” I couldn’t understand it. And then I had my first kid and I was like, “Oh, I suddenly get it.” That love—and the triggering, too—that you probably never felt in any other ways.Hunter: Yeah. And there are so many other factors as well. I remember taking Maggie to her Montessori preschool and dropping her off with a teacher I’d become friends with and got to know and love. I would get her in the door, turn around, and just cry out of relief to have three hours where I wasn’t “on”—where I wasn’t there to take the intensity of this child.Sarah: For sure. So it sounds like at least your older daughter is on the more intense side of things.Hunter: Yeah. She’s a lot like me. She’s very highly sensitive. She was always very intense from the beginning. Her birth was intense. Her babyhood was intense. Everything is intense about her—very sensitive.And about a year and a half into her being born, I realized I needed something to help me weather this intensity: the anxiety, her emotional storms. I was getting myself to the YMCA, and I got her to tolerate—just barely—the YMCA childcare. But I was like, “I need more.” I needed to really turn to my mindfulness and bring it back, because it was so triggering for me.Sarah: Wow. I’m glad you found it, and that you’re sharing it with everybody else. When you were talking before about big feelings being a challenge in your life—managing the feelings, I guess is a fair thing to say—that was actually one of my favorite chapters of your book: “Taking Care of Difficult Feelings.”I was hoping we could focus on that today, because I think so much of our parenting struggles come from difficult feelings—either our child’s difficult feelings, or our own difficult feelings, or both. I love how you frame working with those feelings.You talk about two common responses to difficult feelings that are the flip side of the same coin: blocking and becoming flooded. Can you talk about those two responses—what they are, what they look like, and how we might notice if those things are happening? And to be clear upfront: those are the things you want to move away from—either blocking or becoming flooded by difficult feelings. So maybe ground us in what those are first.Hunter: Sure. I think blocking is something a lot of us are familiar with. That’s the “Don’t cry, go to your room,” right? It’s basically the instruction to not have those feelings. So we’re blocking those feelings out in some way.And like anything, it’s not completely black and white. Sometimes there are times in life where it’s helpful to block feelings temporarily. We know that. But in general, we try to avoid feeling our feelings, because difficult feelings are uncomfortable.So we block them. Blocking can include: I remember the chocolate stash in my pantry was pretty robust when Maggie was little. It can include drinking. It definitely includes the phone and the scrolling as a way of blocking our feelings. Anything we’re doing to distract ourselves or stuff down and not look at those feelings. Shopping. Doing things to distract ourselves.Sarah: Or being too busy, too.Hunter: Yeah. Over-busyness is certainly one—the endless to-do list. The sad thing about over-busyness is that we’re rewarded for that so much in our society. We’re rewarded for getting things done and productivity. And for women, it can be like being a good girl or being a strong independent woman is to get stuff done and to be busy.And yet it has this insidious side where, especially with our feelings, we’re pushing through. We’re not feeling our feelings. We’re training ourselves to not be present. We’re training ourselves to always be in the future.The sad side of that is: when we’re always in this to-do list—“I’m gonna go, I’m gonna do, I’m gonna go, I’m gonna do”—then we think, “Oh, I’m gonna get to our beach vacation and I’m gonna be really present with my kids.” And then you can’t, because you’ve trained your brain and your heart to always go and do. It feels unbearably restless to stop when you finally try to stop.So blocking can look like all of those things.And then the flip side is: the blocking builds up. You block and block and block. It becomes overwhelming. You have no tools to deal with and process these feelings. You’re just trying to push them away, and then suddenly they’re overwhelming. You drown in them. You’re completely flooded by them.Flooding can look like completely drowning in sadness, misery, shame. It can also look like anger—your temper. There’s a bunch of stuff coming out that you can’t stop, because you’re completely flooded by these feelings and you have no way to deal with them.A metaphor I like is that the feelings are like a big hamburger—a big juicy hamburger with cheese, and it’s gooey and disgusting. You’re eating this big emotional hamburger, but you have no digestive system because you’ve tried to shove it away. And then when you can’t, it becomes a big, disgusting mess. That’s my disgusting metaphor for not having the tools to digest and process those feelings.Sarah: Do you ever listen to Anderson Cooper’s podcast? I can’t remember the name of it now. I know who he is, but it’s about grief. He has a podcast about grief—it’s called All There Is. It’s a really wonderful podcast. He talks a lot about how he never processed the grief of his father dying, and then his brother dying. And then his mother died, and he realized he’d gone his whole life without processing any of this grief, and it had really robbed him of the ability to feel other things.Like joy. He’s a father with a couple of young kids, and it wasn’t until he started to process his grief that he was able to access the other, more beautiful emotions. And I think that’s— for people like me, where I admit I have a hard time feeling my feelings sometimes—I try to remind myself: you have to feel the hard things to also feel the good things.Hunter: Yeah, it’s true. There’s the research by Brené Brown, and it comes out pretty unequivocally that you can’t selectively numb. You’re either numbing everything, or you’re feeling your feelings. And if you’re feeling your feelings, you’ve got to be able to process it.For me, I was never unable to feel my feelings. I felt everything too much. I was never able to block out much. So I felt like I had no choice but to learn how to process these feelings. And when Maggie came along, the thing that was coming out for me was my temper.I felt very ashamed of it. This is exactly how I decided not to parent. My brain, my choice, my willpower was that I would be this peaceful parent, gentle—and I was not. I was scaring her. I was aggressive. I was loud. I could see I scared her multiple times, and it was exactly what I didn’t want.So I could really see: this isn’t like, “Pause and choose X, Y, Z instead.” It’s not that simple. I would say, “How do you pause?” It’s a process of changing bit by bit over time, and making a different kind of habit—energy in your body—learning how to tolerate the difficult things. It’s so much more than willpower.It gave me a lot of compassion for myself and for other people who struggle, especially moms who couldn’t even say they had any anger—who felt so ashamed of even having it. Because it isn’t a choice. Nobody listening to this podcast or my podcast is thinking, “I think I’ll wake up on Tuesday and scream at Joey.” That’s not happening.It’s much more than a choice. So I really had to understand it and understand how to be the parent that Maggie needed me to be. She clearly needed somebody steady—steadiness, a lot of steadiness, a lot of rhythm. She was not a go-with-the-flow kid, and I needed to become the parent she needed me to be.Sarah: I’m lucky—for all the parents you’ve helped out there—that you had that experience. If you had a really easy kid, you might not ever have had to learn all of these lessons that you now share with other people. So it’s a blessing for everyone else that you had to go through the hard time.Hunter: Yeah. Sometimes I joke that I had just the right amount of trauma: enough that I was able to deal with it in a way that I could break it down, understand it, and deal with it.But it is really helpful to understand: there’s so much more than, “Here’s how you respond to your kid.” Those skillful ways to respond are wonderful to know, but they go completely out the window as soon as you’re activated—when your stress response is triggered—because your brain is in limbic fight, flight, or freeze mode.It’s important to understand: this is a biological nervous system response. It’s not your fault. There’s not something wrong with you. This is innate—baked into every single human who is alive. There are tools to deal with it, but we have to stop shaming and blaming ourselves for it in order to take the necessary steps to study ourselves.Sarah: One of the necessary steps you talk about is that instead of blocking or becoming flooded, we can learn mindful acceptance when we have difficult feelings. Can you talk a bit about what mindful acceptance is for those difficult feelings?Hunter: Sure. This is really where a formal mindfulness practice shines. It gives us an incredible skill and tolerance, because as we sit—say we take up a sitting meditation practice—we sit there for five minutes or ten minutes. Our mind goes to other things. Our emotions happen. All this stuff happens. And we practice accepting it, observing it. We’re not really doing anything about it except accepting it and observing it. We watch it come, and we watch it go, because nothing stays around forever.This builds a muscle of non-reactivity. Normally, when we feel a feeling in our body—the tension in our throat, the tightness in our shoulders, the “I’ve gotta get outta here” feeling—we act from it. That’s what our nervous system designed us to do. We’re designed to act on a threat or anxiety. We’re designed to move forward.So it’s a weird, anti-evolutionary, slightly unnatural thing to sit and feel the thing you’re feeling. But paradoxically, as you sit with the “I’ve gotta get outta here” feeling, it lessens enormously and sometimes completely goes away.Mindful acceptance is what happens when, for me, I’m practicing my meditation practice on a daily level in little bits—when I’m not quite so activated. There are little bits of: “I’m accepting this thought. I’m accepting these feelings. I’m noticing what’s arising. I’m seeing there’s some anxiety today.” I’m accepting it, and I’m sitting with it.That means I’m not trying to push it away. I’m opening myself up. I’m saying, “Okay, yes, you are here. Yes, it’s okay that you’re here,” and I’m going to be curious about it.Instead of saying, “What’s wrong with me for having this feeling?” I’m going to say, “What does this feel like?” This feels like some tension right in the middle of my chest, underneath my collarbones. It feels like a tickly feeling and a little discomfort—maybe slight queasiness. I’m going to observe it with curiosity, as if I’m an alien beamed down into my body. Like, “What is this?” Just curious: “Okay, yes, this is here.”And as we say yes to this, we stop that instinctive blocking and pushing away.In the Mindful Parenting Teacher Training program, when we work on this, I invite people to think of a difficult feeling and first try to say no to it—say in their heads, “No, no, no, no, no.” You can watch their faces tighten and their bodies tense up. Then I invite them to say, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” And you can see everyone relax. You can see the unclenching. It’s paradoxical: as we accept, “Okay, this is here—this anger, this sadness, this anxiety, whatever it is,” it lessens enormously just with that acceptance, and often can go away completely.It loosens the grip to say yes—to open our arms wide and say yes to the difficult feelings, as much as we don’t want to.Sarah: I love that. And I just want to point out: if you’re listening and you’re like, “I’ve made it to this age and I’ve always intended to have a mindfulness practice, but I don’t”—like me, raising his hand—I think you can still use everything you just said, even if you’re not going to start a daily mindfulness practice. In the moment, accepting the feelings you’re having, and everything you were saying, sounds so helpful to say about your child’s feelings too.Hunter: Exactly. When we practice accepting our own feelings, then we can accept our child’s feelings. We want to accept their difficult feelings—maybe not the behavior, but the feelings. We may say the words out loud, but our bodies might tell a different story: that we’re not really accepting those feelings. Like, “Yes, it’s okay. I need to be mad at your brother.” And kids have incredible BS meters. They can see right through that.So for us to really accept them, we have to first accept ourselves. We have to be able to accept our own feelings in order to truly accept our kids’ feelings. Because if we’re secretly judging our own humanity—shaming ourselves for our difficulty—if we’re harsh and mean to ourselves, that’s eventually going to come out. It won’t stay hidden. Those parts of ourselves come out. We live with our kids for at least eighteen years, and it will come out. You can’t fake it. Kids will see the faking it, if we’re trying to—Sarah: One thing you talk about—I understood it as one of the practices you can put in place to move toward mindful acceptance—is that reflective listening piece with our children. That reflective listening is a tool to help you with more acceptance of feelings. Is that how you look at it, or how do you see those as related?Hunter: Yeah, they’re totally related. When we practice reflective listening—like, “I see you look really frustrated”—say our kid comes to us and they’re mad at their brother. Instead of saying, “You shouldn’t be hitting your brother,” or being defensive, or trying to make the problem go away, we say, “Oh, wow. You are really upset right now. I can see this was really important to you.” Then they say, “Yeah, because he did this,” and blah, blah, blah. “Oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. This was really upsetting for you. Hold on. I’m going to listen to your brother too.”As soon as we acknowledge those feelings in our kids, it takes the temperature down. It takes stress hormone levels down in the body—that’s what the research shows.It’s similar for us. As soon as we’re acknowledging—this is what Dr. Dan Siegel calls “name it to tame it”—when we name something, it’s like magic happens. The left brain and right brain come together. The verbal part of the brain helps take down the temperature in the emotional part of the brain just by recognizing out loud the feelings.In the same way we’re naming it with our children, we’re naming it with ourselves. That may be out loud with our children, or it may not be out loud within ourselves, but either way it provides release to name it.Sarah: In my coaching, I’ve heard lots of parents say, “When I do that, it makes my child more upset,” or “It makes them aggressive.” If I say, “I can see you’re really upset right now,” or “really mad at your brother,” do you think that’s because they’re not really acknowledging their child’s feelings and they’re just saying a script? Or is there something about having feelings acknowledged that makes a child go further into the feelings? Or neither, or both? What’s your experience with that?Hunter: It’s interesting, and it’s really hard to tell when we’re not there in the moment and we’re hearing from one parent’s point of view. I have heard that. And I think being acknowledged is helpful—but it depends on the form the acknowledgement takes.Maybe it’s, “Oh honey,” with your arms open—communicating acceptance: “I see you and I hear you,” with your body and your mind.Sometimes we can practice a tool like reflective listening with a script, but without congruence of mind and body—where inside we’re panicked: “The ship is going down and I’ve got to do something. I’m going to do that tool that Sarah and Hunter said to do.” We’re saying the words, but behind it is the panic of, “Oh my God, my kid’s out of control,” and our own nervous system is starting to freak out, like it’s an emergency.That’s an incongruent message between your mind and your body. It has to be honest and real, otherwise it can’t really work.That’s why foundation is so important. It can’t just be scripts on the outside. It has to be the foundation of some kind of practices, some kind of intention, that helps you steady and calm your nervous system on a daily basis—so you can access it in a moment like that.I was with my daughter Maggie not that long ago. She must have been sixteen. She was really mad at me and my husband for something. I think it had to do with swimming scheduling. I forget what it was. She was really mad at us, and she was saying this to us near our living room entryway area.At first I was listening, and I could feel the agitation in my body. So I got a broom and started to sweep the entryway while she was mad and upset with us. And I was like, “Oh, look at what I’m doing.” I could see myself. So I put it down. I sat down on the ottoman and practiced feeling what I was feeling—feeling the discomfort—without trying to say anything. I didn’t say anything. I was just there, practicing being present in myself with my sensations and my feelings, with what was going on, with this kind of verbal assault that was happening.Within about thirty seconds of me sitting down and practicing this, she also sat down right next to me on the ottoman and slumped her body against mine. She started to wind down. Nothing special or miraculous was said. It was just the practice of being present—being steady—listening to her, taking in what she was saying, feeling the feelings.Kids can feel that. We can feel when someone is congruent with what they’re feeling and doing and saying, and when someone isn’t.So I often encourage parents: reflective listening is an incredible tool and it really can help a lot. But with some kids it doesn’t mean you’re going to say a lot of words. It means you’re going to practice the number one thing about reflective listening: mindfully being present. “I am present in my body. I am seeing and hearing you.” And then offering empathy—whether it’s even just a sound that isn’t a word. It doesn’t have to be a ton of words.Sarah: I love that. The anecdote you shared with your daughter was a perfect example of co-regulation.Hunter: Yeah.Sarah: And being that nervous system anchor—you focused on your own nervous system, and it helped her too.Hunter: Exactly. I wish I could have figured that out when she was two, but at least I figured it out when she was sixteen.Sarah: So true. Was there anything you think would be helpful to add about taking care of difficult feelings that I haven’t asked you about? There’s so much great stuff in your book, but just for the sake of keeping the focus on what we’ve been talking about today.Hunter: It’s important to remember that we have a lot of resistance to doing the practices of taking care of difficult feelings. I offer the RAIN practice and different things for looking at our difficult feelings. We have a lot of resistance to that, and that’s very natural.But it really does help our kids. Just like in that anecdote I shared with Maggie, for us to model how to do that as a human. For every skill you want your kid to have in life, you have to do it first. You have to model it first. Kids are terrible at doing what we say, but they’re great at doing what we do. They’re great at imitating our behavior and seeing the way we live our lives as a model for how to live life.So regardless of how old your kid is, it’s an incredible practice for you to do. And it’s a two-for-one: you help yourself, and you help your kid. It makes things less scary. I have less negative anticipation of things because I practice being present most of the time—and because I know that when I get into the present moment of something, I’ll survive it.I’ve survived a lot of difficult feelings. I’ve felt a lot of difficult feelings, and I’ll be okay. I can tolerate a lot of different difficult things. And it makes me more present for the positive things. It makes me more able to fully feel joy and excitement, and to join in their joy and excitement. So it has a lot of benefits.Sarah: I love that. You were just talking about resilience—knowing that you can handle difficult feelings. A lot of parents mistake resilience for not getting upset, but I always tell parents: no, it’s not that you don’t get upset, it’s that you get upset and you recover. And the path to that is always going through the upset first.I love when you talk about reflective listening and the empathy piece. In peaceful parenting we always talk about welcoming feelings, and I think that’s the key to taking care of difficult feelings: welcoming them, and knowing that every time you survive it, you become a little bit more resilient.Hunter: Absolutely. There are a couple different ways to welcome them. One thing I want to point out—because I think it’s so beautiful—is that I studied mindfulness for many years, and my main teacher was the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, who has since passed.What he used to say about difficult feelings is that we want to imagine ourselves holding them in our arms like a baby: “Oh, hello, my anger. I’m going to take care of you. It’s okay that you’re here. My anxiety, I’m going to take care of you. I’m here for you.”That’s such a beautiful image of how to accept and take care of our feelings. We’ve got to take care of these feelings. They’re kind of like toddlers tugging at our legs, and they’re not going to go away until they are seen and heard.So you’ve got to get some kind of process.Sarah: I love that. Thank you so much. There’s a question I ask all my podcast guests: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what would you tell yourself?Hunter: I would tell myself to slow down. I don’t have to get it all done. I can give myself time to figure out this experience, and not rush forward.Sarah: Love that. Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?Hunter: You can find Raising Good Humans anywhere books are sold, and the Mindful Mama Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. I’m at mindfulmamamentor.com, and there are lots of freebies there, and podcasts and articles, et cetera.Sarah: Great. We’ll link to all those in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us.Hunter: Thank you, Sarah. It’s been really fun.Sarah: If this episode brought up that familiar feeling of “I know what to do—why is it still so hard?” I want to pause and say that this struggle is incredibly common, and it doesn’t mean you’re failing. On Wednesday, I’m hosting a live workshop called When You Know Better, but Still Yell, where we focus on understanding what happens in those moments and how to interrupt yelling and repair without shame. If that sounds supportive to you, you can find more information in the show notes or go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I bring back one of my favourite holiday episodes, which is an interview with my kids, where we talk about ‘people, not stuff’.Every year around the holidays, I hear from parents who are worried their kids are too focused on presents, too greedy, or too materialistic — and they’re afraid they’re getting something wrong. I made this episode to offer a long-term perspective. I interviewed my own kids (then 14, 17, and 20) about what holidays and gifts felt like when they were little — and what actually mattered as they got older. Us last year at Christmas- on one of the Christmas Day walks we discussed on the podcast:In the episode, we talk about why “wanting stuff” is normal in childhood, how values really develop over time, and why parents can relax a lot more than they think.🎉🎂 Also- today is my birthday! If this podcast, our posts, or our work has helped you and your family, and you want to give back to us, you can help cover the costs of our free content by supporting us on Substack for the cost of a fancy coffee a month. Or you can support us- without spending- any money by doing any or all of the following:* follow the podcast and leave a 5 star review and rating on your podcast player app* leave a Google review of our work HERE* forward a newsletter or podcast post to a friend* share a post or a podcast episode to your preferred content sharing spot :)My gift to you is an ad free episode today, which is what you get for every episode if you support us on Substack! Thank YOU for being here!!xx Sarah (and Corey!)Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.We talk about:* 2:00 — Intro: replay episode + why parents worry about “greedy/materialistic” kids* 3:00 — Holiday schedule update + invitation to email podcast ideas/guest suggestions* 3:34 — Why this episode: parents’ concerns about consumerism + interviewing Sarah’s kids* 4:00 — Important context: privilege, money, and why this worry comes from a privileged place* 5:00 — Two practical ways to handle privilege: Santa gifts + donating new presents* 7:00 — Meet Maxine (14): how holiday meaning shifts with age (family time, traditions, coziness)* 11:38 — “Ungrateful” little kids: why it’s normal + what parents shouldn’t panic about* 13:23 — What helps long-term: building traditions + experiences as gifts* 16:34 — Meet Asa (17): growing out of the “wanting stuff” stage + values changing over time* 21:05 — Middle school + fitting in: when brand-name wanting peaks (and why)* 22:30 — What parents should do: keep kids grounded + relax* 23:01 — Meet Lee (20): consumerism awareness, “people not stuff,” and the post-holiday letdown* 32:00 — Gratitude + privilege: why kids can’t fully grasp it yet, and how it comes with time* 33:31 — Reassurance: if you’re worried about this, you’re probably already doing fine* 34:34 — Wrap-up: “the parenting podcast paradox” + holiday wishesConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Here’s the polished transcript of the interview-Today’s episode is a replay of an episode from four years ago.So many parents get worried, especially at this time of year, that their kids are materialistic and greedy and will never have good values. I thought you could use a little window into the future, and it would be helpful for you to see where we are in my family and what it’s like as kids get older.So I interviewed my kids about their experiences growing up with presents and holidays and stuff. So if your kid has a case of the greedy, you’ll see, if you listen to my kids, that it won’t last forever. At the time of the interviews, they were 14, 17, and 20. Today they’re 18, 21, and 24. Things really do shift as your kids get older.My older two kids live on their own—and they have for a few years—and so far, all they’ve said they want for Christmas is socks. Things really do change.If this holiday support episode is helpful and you aren’t on my email list, make sure you check out the other posts that we have on Substack. As I mentioned, just search up Substack and Sarah Rosensweet and you’ll find us.My team and I are going to be taking a bit of time off for the holidays. We will be back in the new year with new episodes of this podcast. And if you have any ideas for the podcast, or any guests that you’d like to have on, or you would like to be coached on the podcast, shoot me an email: [email protected]’d love to hear from you about any ideas you have for the podcast—what you’d like to have coming up in the new year.Here we go back to the podcast. Enjoy this replay, whether it’s your first time hearing it or if you’ve heard it before.Sarah: Today’s episode is a response to some parents’ questions and concerns that I received when I did a call-out asking people what they were concerned about over the holidays. And some parents were really feeling stressed about materialism and consumerism of the holidays, and their kids getting too many presents or wanting too much stuff.So I interviewed my kids about it—what their perspective was, having gone through the “I want more presents” stage, and now they’re teenagers. They’re 14, 17, and one of them’s not a teenager anymore—he’s 20. So I interviewed them because they’ve been through it, and I’ve been through it with them.But before we dive into the interviews, I just want to acknowledge that this is a very privileged position—that we have the privilege of being able to be concerned that our kids have too much stuff, or they’re getting too many presents, or that they’re worried too much about getting things and being able to buy things.For a number of years when our kids were little, my husband was a student and I was a stay-at-home mom, and we really didn’t have any money. We really had to watch every penny. But we still had privilege because we got government assistance—child tax benefit. We live in Canada where we have socialized medicine, so we didn’t need to worry about health insurance.And we also had the family safety net privilege, which was that we knew if we ever were really in dire straits, our parents would help us out.And our kids had privilege even though we didn’t have money in those years, because they got a lot of presents from their grandparents. I think we mention that in the interviews that are coming up.So my husband and I—we didn’t have much money, but we didn’t need to worry about buying them gifts because they had five sets of grandparents. Hello, divorce and remarriage.So I just really wanted to acknowledge that I am speaking from a place of privilege, my children are speaking from a place of privilege, and those parents who reached out to me concerned about too many presents and materialism and “What are we gonna do when our kids just want so much stuff?”—they’re also speaking from a place of privilege.And many, many, many parents don’t have that. They don’t have enough money to buy presents for their kids. And those kids might be in school with kids who get tons of presents at Christmas.So two small things that we can do—and I know these are really just a drop in the bucket—but while I’m here, I’m just going to make two suggestions for all of us listening who are coming from a place of privilege.One is that we don’t get big presents from Santa. If we do celebrate Christmas and we do the Santa tradition, we don’t give our children big presents from Santa. That’s one thing, because what about kids who are getting hardly anything, if anything at all, from Santa?Another is that we make donations. Those of us who have privilege—we either make donations to food banks, or we make donations by buying new presents. It’s great to donate things that your kids no longer play with. But what I’m asking here is that we donate new presents to organizations that will then distribute them to kids who are less financially privileged.I know that’s not a ton, and I always feel kind of nervous and vulnerable when I talk about things like this. I’m still learning and I’m not perfect. However, I just wanted to address the issue of privilege—financial privilege—before we dive in.So let me introduce you to my kids. If you didn’t hear them in episode one of the podcast, when they were talking about what it was like to be raised by peaceful parenting, you might wanna go back and give that a listen. But let me introduce you to Maxine, who’s 14; Asa, who’s 17; and Lee, who’s 20.You’re gonna hear each of their perspectives on stuff and presents and materialism and consumerism, and what they think parents should do to raise kids who have great values.Okay, let’s dive in. Hi, Maxine. Hello. Welcome to the podcast.Maxine: Hi.Sarah: Can you introduce yourself?Maxine: I’m Maxine, and I’m your child.Sarah: How old are you? I know how old you are, but other people don’t.Maxine: I’m 14.Sarah: All right. So do you remember when you were little, what was the best thing about birthdays—Christmas, holidays?Maxine: Oh… presents, I guess.Sarah: I think that’s what—well, I—Maxine: I probably shouldn’t say that, because I know that’s, like, what the whole podcasting is about.Sarah: No, it’s okay. That’s what I’m trying to normalize. The fact that for little kids, it’s all about presents, right?Maxine: Yeah.Sarah: So do you think you’re still in that phase at 14—that it’s mostly about the presents?Maxine: Well, not really. I like spending time with you guys—especially since Lee moved out.Sarah: So you’re looking forward to having your brother come home at Christmas. What else is meaningful to you about the Christmas holiday?Maxine: Well, literally you and Dad don’t have to work that much when it’s—so we get to spend, like, the whole day together. And we always have a nice breakfast, and sometimes we get to help you with that and stuff like that.Sarah: One of my favorite things the past couple of years that we’ve been doing is the family walk on Christmas.Maxine: Yeah. It’s fun. And we always take Emmy, and she’s always so happy to be with all of us.Sarah: Yeah, because she never gets all five of us to take her for a walk at once.Maxine: Oh—Emmy. Emmy’s our dog, by the way, if you don’t know that.Sarah: So do you still like the presents?Maxine: Yeah, I still like presents. But, like, who doesn’t like presents? Even you and Dad like presents.Sarah: That’s true. But the time with family—you’re starting to appreciate that more as you’re getting older. Do you ever remember getting a present you didn’t like when you were a kid?Maxine: No, but I remember being disappointed that I didn’t get presents that I wanted.Sarah: Oh yeah? Tell me about that.Maxine: When I thought Santa was real, I would make lists and I wouldn’t get all the stuff, and I would be kind of sad.Sarah: Yeah. And how do you think that affected you as a person?Maxine: I don’t think it really mattered. I think I was just a little kid who wanted to have all the presents that I wanted.Sarah: Yeah. Do you think that’s pretty normal?Maxine: Yeah.Sarah: Do you think parents should worry about that?Maxine: No. I think you shouldn’t worry. But I think it’s weird if your kids aren’t excited about presents and don’t want lots and lots of presents, because that’s a normal thing for kids to want.Sarah: And so what do you think happens as you get older, and now you’re like, “Yeah, I still like presents, but that’s not the most important thing.”Maxine: I think when you’re little, you just don’t understand what the holidays—and what that is all about. But when you get older, you realize that it’s more about just being able to spend time with people and stuff.And it’s also nice to give people presents instead of just always getting presents.Sarah: What have been your favorite presents that you’ve given?Maxine: I don’t know—like when I give my brothers records or stuff like that, and it just seems to make them happy, then it makes me feel good.Sarah: Do you remember making presents?Maxine: Yeah. I made presents—like this year or last year. I made those little tree decorations for my brothers and you and my dad and all the grandparents and stuff.Sarah: That’s right. Those were nice.Maxine: Those little candy cane things.Sarah: Yeah, those were sweet.Maxine: Also, I like Christmas because it’s all nice and cozy. And just—like on Christmas or just any holidays that we do as a family—but especially Christmas, when we’re all sitting around and listening to music and it’s all cozy in our house and stuff, and then we can look outside and stuff like that.Sarah: I love that too. I love decorating the tree and then sitting and looking at it afterwards, having hot chocolate.Maxine: Yeah.Sarah: You know, that was a tradition that I did growing up too.Maxine: Cool. Also sometimes on Christmas—or mostly Christmas or New Year’s—when our grandparents call to just say “Happy New Year” or “Merry Christmas,” that’s nice. And you get to talk to them.Usually I call your mom, and I always show her all my presents and stuff.Sarah: You know, Nana listens to the podcast. Do you want to say hi to her?Maxine: Hi Nana.Sarah: One of the other things that parents were worried about—and why I’m making this podcast—is that sometimes little kids seem really ungrateful. Like they get a whole giant pile of presents and then they’re like, “I wanted the blah blah blah,” or “I didn’t get that,” or “Why did he get more?”What do you think those parents need to hear when they have little kids? What do they need to hear from an older kid?Maxine: Like I said before, when I would not get presents that I wanted, but I would still get other presents—I would be sad or unhappy about it, that I didn’t get the other presents that I wanted. But after, I would realize how fun the presents I actually got were.And honestly, if you have a four-year-old and they’re upset about not getting something, then they’re literally four. So you can’t really think that they’re ungrateful, because they don’t even know what that word means. They probably don’t even know how to say that word.So you can’t really worry about them being ungrateful, because they don’t even know what that is.Sarah: Right. And they don’t have anything to compare it to, right?Maxine: Yeah, because they’re literally four.Sarah: So if parents are really worried about that—if they think their kids think that toys are the most important thing—what would you say to those parents?Maxine: Well, kids are just kids. I’m still a kid, but I know that presents aren’t the only thing that’s good about holidays and stuff. But I’m still learning. And if your kid is younger than me, then chances are they’ll know even less about that.So honestly, kids are just kids, and they just think presents are so cool and exciting that they don’t know there’s more to it than presents.Sarah: Right. Do you think there’s anything parents could or should do to teach their kids that there are things more important than presents?Maxine: Well, you could do traditions, like what we do—like where you go on a walk, or you decorate your tree as a family or something. Or if you celebrate Hanukkah, doing little traditions for that and stuff. So when they’re older, they’ll see, “Oh, when we did all those things, those were nice traditions that my parents did.”Sarah: Can you think of any other traditions that were important to you?Maxine: Decorating cookies.Sarah: I was thinking about that too. That’s a lot of fun. I’m really looking forward to doing that this year.Maxine: And I already promised one of my teachers, Ms. Miller, that I was going to give her cookies. So we have to do it.Sarah: We absolutely will, because she loves sugar.Maxine: Yeah, she’s sugar.Sarah: She does. Yeah.I think you’ve always liked giving presents too. Is there anything else you think parents should know if they’re worried about their kids thinking that stuff is more important than people?Maxine: Honestly, just what I said before: kids are just kids, and they don’t know anything other than presents. So don’t think it’s a big deal, because eventually they’ll realize more things about holidays, like I did.But if your kid’s, like, six and they’re so excited about the presents and that’s all they can talk about, then honestly that’s a normal kid behavior.Sarah: Right. And not worry about it.Maxine: Well, not, like, normal, but a lot of kids are like that.Sarah: Yeah. And I think if we can be excited for them too, right?Maxine: Yeah. If you can show them that it’s so great that they’re excited about it, and it can be like, “I’m excited too,” then they’ll see it’s not something bad. But if you tell them, “No, you shouldn’t be this excited about presents. That’s not allowed…”Sarah: That’s right.Hey, do you remember—this is one thing I forgot to ask your brothers about—do you remember times when you’ve gotten an experience instead of a thing you can hold in your hands for a present?Maxine: People have given me a ticket to go do something with me or something. Just for fun.Sarah: I think Mimi took you to a show once.Maxine: Yeah.Sarah: And Uncle Les used to do sleepovers and movie night.Maxine: Yeah.Sarah: Do you think that’s a good idea? Do you think kids like that?Maxine: Yeah. I liked—huh? But I’m not a normal kid.Sarah: You’re not a normal kid? Why aren’t you a normal kid?Maxine: Because I’m not. I don’t know how to explain it.Sarah: I think you’re a pretty normal kid.Maxine: No, I’m extraordinary.Sarah: You’re also hilarious.Maxine: Thanks, darling.Sarah: You are welcome. Love you. You look funny with those big headphones on your head.Maxine: Yeah, I’m sure.Sarah: I do love you, kid.Maxine: Oh, I love you.Sarah: Hello. Okay. Okay, let’s get started. Can you introduce yourself?Asa: My name’s Asa. I’m your son. I’m 17.Sarah: Thanks for coming on the podcast.Asa: Yeah, no problem.Sarah: So when you were little, you and your older brother Lee used to spend hours looking at the Lego catalog and circling all the things that you wanted.Asa: Uh-huh.Sarah: Do you remember that?Asa: Yeah.Sarah: And I remember Dad used to really worry about that. He used to worry that you guys—your values were out of place, and you were gonna be super greedy kids and not care about the right things.Asa: Right.Sarah: He was right?Asa: Yeah.Sarah: Are you super greedy?Asa: No.Sarah: Now, I remember one year when you were around 11 and I said, “The grandparents are starting to ask what you want for Christmas,” because they wanted to get you something. And you stopped and you thought, and you said, “Mom, I think I have a pretty good life. I can’t think of anything I want.”Do you remember that?Asa: Yeah.Sarah: So how did you go from the five-year-old who wanted everything in the Lego catalog to—Asa: I think I kind of just grew out of it, I guess, is the best way to say it. I don’t know. My brain chemistry changed.Sarah: Do you think that’s typical of 17-year-olds? Do you feel like most kids your age don’t want that much stuff?Asa: Yeah. The thing is, I don’t really play with toys anymore. So when I was little, you can never have too many toys. You just get more and more and more, and they’re all good.But now, thinking about it, the only thing I’m missing in my daily life is a backpack big enough to put all my stuff in. So that’s, like, the only thing I want. When I think about it—what would make my life better—the only thing I can think of is a bigger backpack.Sarah: A bigger backpack. Okay.Asa: Bigger backpack.Sarah: I think Santa has gotten wind of that, so you don’t have too long to wait.I feel like you’re sort of unusual for kids your age in terms of not being into brand-name stuff. Do you think that’s true?Asa: Yeah. I would say that’s true.Sarah: Why do you think that is?Asa: When you get older, you value different things. Your values change. You don’t really care so much about accumulating plastic chachkes, and you’re more focused on just having a good time.Sarah: I know you don’t want little toys from the dollar store or Lego kits anymore, but why don’t you want brand-name sneakers? You haven’t even gotten sneakers in, like, two years, right?Asa: I’ve evolved past that.Sarah: Okay, but what is it? I’m trying to say: I think you’re unusual for someone 17, in grade 12, who’s not like, “Oh, I need these sneakers and that expensive thing and the latest iPhone.”I want to hear anything you think would be helpful for parents who want to make sure their kids don’t grow up greedy and materialistic.Asa: They won’t. They won’t. Or maybe they will, but it doesn’t really—some people are like that and some people aren’t.Everybody when they’re little wants Lego and wants to look in the Lego catalog. Whatever you do then is not gonna shape that. Maybe your kid will grow up and be greedy, but you telling them that they shouldn’t look at the Lego catalog isn’t gonna change that.It’s not guaranteed everybody’s gonna grow out of it. Whatever you try and do isn’t gonna change that. It’s already kind of preset. Let the kids do whatever they want, and then maybe they’ll be greedy, maybe they won’t. But it won’t really have any effect on it.Sarah: So you’re saying it’s other things—not what they want when they’re little—that decide how they turn out.Asa: Yeah.Sarah: I think it’s pretty normal for little kids to want lots of stuff. It’s hardwired, evolutionarily, for them to want stuff—because if they were just quiet and meek in a corner, everyone would forget about them.Asa: Yeah.Sarah: Do you remember when you started to feel grateful for your life?Asa: I am grateful now, and I probably wasn’t when I was three. So somewhere along the line—maybe somewhere between three and 17—maybe five years ago. I don’t know. It’s sort of a gradual thing.Sarah: Yeah, it’s hard to pinpoint.You said that parents telling their kids not to want stuff isn’t going to make a difference. But do you think you internalized what was important in our family, and because Dad and I aren’t really into brand names and buying stuff, that’s how you developed too?Asa: Yeah. I would say I cared about the stuff most when I was in grade six and seven, and I felt really weird telling you guys that I wanted shirts with company logos on them and stuff. It just felt out of place in our family.Sarah: Why do you think it was grade six and seven that you wanted the most brand-name stuff?Asa: Because brain development-wise, that’s when you want to fit in the most.Sarah: That makes sense. And at a certain point, you just…One of the things I admire about you is that you don’t care what other people think—in a good way. You have your own idea of what you like and what’s cool. But when you were little, what was the most important or meaningful thing about Christmas or birthdays?Asa: I guess the anticipation. The anticipation of all of the presents and celebration and whatnot. When you actually get there, it’s like whatever, but it gives you something to look forward to leading up to it. That was probably the most important thing.Sarah: The excitement of the possibilities of what you might get and do.Asa: Yeah.Sarah: What about now? Has anything changed?Asa: Well, I used to have birthday parties when I was a little kid. I don’t really do that anymore, so birthdays definitely don’t feel as significant.Christmas is kind of the same mold, but again, I’m not so much into, like, “Which Lego am I gonna get this year?” So I don’t know. I guess now I value the food and the family and everything else. So Christmas, beyond the presents.Sarah: Nice. Well, thanks, Ace. Was there anything you think parents should know about this topic?Asa: Make sure your kids are staying somewhat grounded to reality, but just relax too, because they’re little kids.Sarah: Thanks, Ace. Bye.Asa: No problem. Bye. Love you.Sarah: Love you too.Lee: Hello.Sarah: Hi, Lee. Welcome to the podcast.Lee: Thank you for having me.Sarah: Can you introduce yourself?Lee: Hi, I’m Lee, your oldest son.Sarah: How old are you now?Lee: 20.Sarah: 20 and—Lee: A half.Sarah: 20 and a half. We missed your half-birthday this year.And for anyone listening who doesn’t celebrate Christmas, I think this applies to birthdays or any other holidays where kids get presents. Looking back on your childhood, do you remember really wanting to get presents and lobbying to get presents when you were little?Lee: Yeah, definitely. Next question.Sarah: I asked your brother this—do you remember looking at the Lego catalog, the two of you pouring over it and circling everything you wanted?Lee: Oh yeah, for sure. I think you and Dad tried to moderate that. I remember you talking to us about consumerism. I think I understood that stuff, but I still just wanted presents. I think that’s how it is for most kids.Sarah: For sure. It really stressed Dad out. He was worried about all the wanting, like a lot of the parents who wrote with concerns about this.But you’re a person now at 20 who I would say is pretty non-materialistic. When did you become aware of consumerism and materialism?Lee: I think I was aware as long as I can remember. Definitely you taught me early, but I don’t think it sank in until I was a young teenager.When was the first time I was like, “Oh, you don’t need to get me any presents”? I don’t know. By the way, you always still do, but I’m pretty sure I always tell you now that you don’t need to.Sarah: Yeah. We get you presents because we want to get you presents, not because we feel like we have to.Lee: But when I was a kid, I wasn’t like, “Oh, you don’t have to get me any presents.” I wanted presents very much.Sarah: For sure. Do you ever remember—Lee: I think it was enough times… Do you talk to your parents about the post-holiday letdown? We haven’t talked about that yet, but experiencing that enough made me feel like, “Okay, maybe presents are not the name of the game.”Sarah: Say more about the post-holiday letdown.Lee: Somewhere around 3:00 p.m. on Christmas, you’d be like, “Well, that was that. Back to my comfortable life, I guess.” But normal. You’d stop feeling excited and you’d feel like, “Was I really that excited?” Because once the suspense is gone—who said that? The anticipation is always better than the actual thing. Some philosopher said that.Sarah: That’s so funny because that’s what your brother said. When I asked what he remembered most, he said: the anticipation.Lee: Yeah, for sure.Sarah: So what would you say to parents who are worried their kids always want more stuff? And even the post-holiday letdown can look like crying about not having more presents at three o’clock.Lee: I would say it’s okay. The kids are victims of the mass media, but you’re probably already doing your best to counteract that, and just have faith. If you’re generally raising a conscientious kid, they’ll eventually probably come around.How many adults do you know who are obsessed with presents?Lee: Well… some are. Some people are very materialistic. But generally people grow out of it, I think.Sarah: There are tons of people who get the new iPhone with every update, or who want the newest, fanciest thing and brand-name stuff.Lee: Okay. I would say then: you guys really hammered it at home with me. And that’s probably why I think what I do now—“People, not stuff,” the old mantra.Sarah: People, not stuff. That really was a mantra in your childhood, wasn’t it?Lee: Yes, probably.Sarah: And for anyone listening, don’t get me wrong—you guys got a lot of presents for Christmas.Lee: Oh yeah.Sarah: Not from us necessarily, because we didn’t have much money when you were growing up. Just a lot of grandparents. You guys have five sets of grandparents—ten grandparents—and then aunties and uncles and big family.I wouldn’t say you were spoiled. Do you think you were spoiled?Lee: I don’t know. Maybe. I think it’s less about having things and more about having a bad attitude than anything else.Sarah: Yeah. I think spoiled is when parents can’t say no and they just give everything. You may have had grandparents who couldn’t say no and gave you everything.Lee: Yeah, that makes sense.Sarah: Looking back, what was really meaningful for you about Christmas or your birthday?Lee: I couldn’t tell you what was really meaningful—just the thing itself. You’re very conditioned to be excited for those things when you’re young. Santa and presents.Sarah: So what about now? What do you like about the holidays?Lee: I don’t want to say I dislike them. I don’t ever decorate, and I play Christmas songs when I get paid too.Sarah: You play them for free at our house.Lee: Yeah. On your request. That’s true.I don’t know. I’m pretty agnostic about it. I don’t mind it. I mind it in November when people get excited about it, but when it’s actually the season, it’s cool.Same with my birthday. It’d be cool to do something, but it always ends up being pretty low-key. I don’t think that’s positive or negative—it varies from person to person.Sarah: Is there anything you’re excited about with Christmas coming?Lee: I guess it still feels nice—like the intentional family time. And the new Lego and—Sarah: Sorry, spoiler: you’re not getting any Lego this year.Lee: Okay. Family time, yeah. Seeing extended family. I don’t know if we’re going to this year. I think Christmas is cool.Sarah: Do you remember making presents for your siblings when you were growing up?Lee: I remember making Asa the piggy bank.Sarah: Do you remember the sock monkeys you made them?Lee: Oh, vaguely.Sarah: Those were a lot of work.Lee: Yeah, I forgot about that. I don’t remember if they liked them.Sarah: They did. We still have them.Lee: Yeah.Sarah: Changing gears a bit—from holidays to consumerism in general—do you remember when you came home from Montessori and said you wanted some company—Lee: Yeah, I know what you’re about to say. Company shirts?Sarah: Yeah.Lee: Okay.Sarah: Do you remember why you wanted company shirts?Lee: Because it was cool.Sarah: We thought you meant shirts that said GAP on them or something. But when Dad took you shopping at a thrift store—Lee: I just wanted shirts with pictures on them.Sarah: Do you remember the trip?Lee: Yeah. I remember getting a Superman button-up. I don’t remember the others.Sarah: I think you got shirts that said T-Rex.Lee: I couldn’t read, so I didn’t know what a company versus just a picture was.Sarah: What do you think that did for you?Lee: Made me cool. I have more friends. I’m joking.I don’t know. I remember being happy to have a cool wardrobe. If you want to talk consumerism, I think I still like getting cool clothes. A lot of people do. Although I don’t go shopping that much.I do tend to buy secondhand clothes, and that’s just a style question. I think that fateful shopping trip—we went to a Goodwill or something, right?I remember going there as a child. And then I had one or two years in the beginning of high school where I wanted to get all my clothes from H&M, and then I just went back to Value Village after that.Sarah: Yeah, I remember that. Rebellious years of going to the mall.So another thing parents worry about is that their kids aren’t appreciative or grateful for everything they have in their life. And I personally think—of course they’re not.Lee: Yeah. Of course they’re not. They’re little dummies.Sarah: No. I don’t think they’re little dummies. I think they just don’t have anything to compare it to.Lee: Yeah, for sure. That’ll come with time.Sarah: Do you remember starting to feel appreciative and grateful for what you have?Lee: Do I remember becoming conscious of it? It always was something you guys talked about. It slowly, very gradually became less abstract as I got more world experience.I don’t totally remember what you said, but the message was: “You are fortunate.”But I never thought, “I’m not grateful.” When you’re a kid, you just don’t understand much. How could you expect them to understand something as nuanced as gratitude? Or privilege.Sarah: Yeah, privilege.Lee: That’s what I’m talking about. It comes with time. You still have to make an effort to show them that, because I definitely know older people who don’t really get that. And if you don’t, you’re one of them.Sarah: So it would be fair to say that the parents who are concerned about wanting their kids to be appreciative of their privilege, wanting their kids to be grateful, and not too consumerist—Lee: You’re probably already doing fine. Exactly. Talk to them about it, and within a decade they’ll get it. And within a decade, they’ll become the preachy ones and you’ll get annoyed.They’ll start lecturing you about capitalism, and you’ll be like, “Gosh darn it, what have I done?”Maxine: I think that’s happened to us a few times.Lee: All I was trying to say—I wasn’t trying to say don’t get your kids presents. I think I’ve been pretty clear. I never minded when you guys talked about privilege and stuff when I was a kid. Even if I did mind it, that would be more reason to reinforce those points.I think the golden rule of parenting podcasts is: if you’re concerned about this stuff, you’re already probably doing pretty well. And if you don’t think about it, then your kid is the one that needs help.Sarah: Yeah. In any case, those are not the people who are probably listening to this.Lee: That’s the parenting podcast paradox.Sarah: Okay, let’s close by saying—Lee: You better leave that in.Sarah: I’ll leave it in: “Parenting podcast paradox.” The Peaceful Parenting Podcast paradox—and add another P in there.Okay. Well, thanks, Lee, for coming on the podcast.Lee: Thanks for having me.Sarah: Love you.Lee: Happy holidays to all your listeners. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

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You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I discuss why “Special Time”- the gold standard for cultivating connection with our kids- might not work the best for complex kids. We cover who complex kids are, what parenting them looks like, how to co-create interests and activities together, and being playful to connect deeply while getting through the daily routine.**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 6:43 What is Special Time?* 7:51 What is a complex Kid?* 10:08 What does it look like to parent a complex Kid?* 19:30 What does daily life look like with complex Kids?* 22:03 What to do for connection when special time doesn’t work?* 23:05 Cultivating shared hobbies* 27:00 Finding books you both love* 30:00 Instead of only putting kids in organized sports, exercise together!* 33:30 Sideways listening with our kids* 37:00 Playful parenting as we move through the daily routineResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* What you Can Do When Parenting Hard: Coaching with Joanna * When Peaceful Parenting Doesn’t Look Like It’s “Supposed To” Look * How To Take the Coach Approach to Parenting Complex Kids with Elaine Taylor- Klaus * What Influencers are Getting Wrong About Peaceful Parenting * Staying Close to Your Tweens and Teens * How To Stop Fighting About Video Games with Scott Novis * Playful Heart Parenting with Mia Wisinski xx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERESarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s episode is about why you shouldn’t do special time, which is, I admit, a little bit of a provocative hook here. But it’s something that Corey brought to my attention that we have been talking about a lot. And then after last week’s podcast, we both agreed—after the podcast with Joanna and her complex kid—we both agreed we have to talk about this, because this is something that probably a lot of parents are feeling a lot of conflict, guilt, and shame around: not doing special time or not wanting to do special time or not being able to do special time.Sarah: Hey Corey. Welcome back to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.Corey: Hi, I am Corey Everett, and I am a trained peaceful parenting coach, and I work for Sarah. I live in Ontario, but I work with clients all over the world doing one-on-one coaching. And I myself am complex and have a complex child. And I have two kids. I never can remember this, but I have a 7-year-old and a 10-year-old.Sarah: I am glad you’re not the only one who can’t remember their kids’ ages. I have to stop and think. Okay. Well, I’m so excited to talk about this. And this is actually something that you and I have talked about over the years, because you have found it really difficult to do special time with your complex kid. Maybe just tell us a little bit about what happened when you tried to do special time and why you eventually sort of gave it up. And, you know, this is something that Joanna in the podcast last week—the coaching podcast—she was talking about how she didn’t want to do special time with her kid because she was so exhausted. So I think this is sort of like a two-part: why sometimes special time doesn’t work for the kids and why it doesn’t work for the parents. So let’s start by talking about what happened when you would try to do special time with Big C, who’s your 10-year-old.Corey: Okay, so when I would try and do special time with Big C, I actually found—first of all—I didn’t really feel very present in it. I felt like I was trying to do it, but I felt like I didn’t have a lot of energy for it. I think he could feel that. So I just didn’t feel very engaged in it and I just felt exhausted, and it just felt like another thing on my to-do list. And so therefore he didn’t necessarily enjoy it as much either.We did do a podcast—it’d be really great, I can put it in the show notes—where we talked about some things for peaceful parenting that aren’t working, and I did a really good description in that one of why special time didn’t work for him.Sarah: Okay.Corey: And so we can have them listen to that if they want more details on that part. Instead, I think I want to really focus on why it didn’t work for me and why I’m finding with my clients it’s not working for them either.Sarah: You know what, sorry to interrupt you. I realize we should really just say what special time is, in case—like it’s such a gold standard of peaceful parenting—but there could be some parents listening to this, parents or caregivers who are newer to special time and might not know what it is.Special time—and there are, I think, some other brands of parenting that might have other names for it—but basically the gold standard is 15 minutes a day of one-on-one time with you and your child, where you put aside the to-do list, put away your phone, and some people suggest that you set a timer and say, “I’m all yours for the next 15 minutes. What do you want to play?” It’s really immersing yourself in the child’s world. That’s one of the main ideas of special time: that we’re immersed in our child’s world of pretend play or some kind of play. It can be roughhousing or it can be playing Lego or dolls—something that is really child-centered and child-led.So that is special time. And let’s take it from there. You had mentioned already that energetically it was really hard for you.Corey: I think the best way that I can explain this is if I paint the picture for you of what it looks like to be a parent of a complex kid. And—Sarah: Wait let’s give a definition of complex—we’ve got to make sure we’re covering the basics here. What’s a complex kid?Corey: Okay, so a complex kid. This term, I first heard it from Elaine Taylor-Klaus—and we can also put in the show notes when you had her on the podcast. She is amazing. And basically, we’re really often talking about neurodivergent kids here. But it can be more than that. It’s just kids who need more.Sarah: It’s that 20% of kids that we talk about—the 80% of kids who, you know, you say “Go put your shoes on and wait for me by the door,” and they go and do it and they don’t have the extra big feelings. So in my idea of it, it can be neurodivergent and also spirited, sensitive, strong-willed. The kids who are not your average, typical kids. And I always say that when I tell people what I do—parenting coach—some people look at me like, “Why would anyone need a parenting coach?” and other people are like, “Oh, I could have used you when my kids were growing up.”So really there are kids who are—I’m sure they’re wonderful—but they’re not as more or complex as some other kids.Corey: Kids that you almost don’t have to be as intentional about your parenting with.Sarah: Yeah. You don’t have to read parenting books or listen to parenting podcasts. I would hazard a guess that most people who listen to this podcast have complex kids.Corey: Yes. They’re our people. We always say the people who are our people are the ones who don’t have to talk about challenges around putting on shoes.Sarah: I love that.Corey: That seems to be the number one thing we’re always talking about.Sarah: We always use that as an example, whether it’s sensory or strong-willed or attentional. It is kind of like one of those canary-in-the-coal-mine things. Will your child go and put their shoes on when you ask them to? If the answer is no, you probably have a complex kid.Corey: Yes, I love that it is the canary in the coal mine. So that’s what our complex kids are. And for the parents of these kids, I think of these parents as being absolute rock stars. They are just trying so hard to peacefully parent their kids. And, like we said, they’re reading all the books, they’re listening to this podcast, they’ve probably signed up for all sorts of online seminars and courses and just do all of the things.Often these parents were not peacefully parented themselves. Most people weren’t. So they’re learning a whole new parenting style. And a lot of people today are getting all their information off Instagram and TikTok reels that aren’t very nuanced, so they’re also not getting really full information. They’re trying so hard off of all these little sound snippets.Sarah: Or the peaceful parenting or gentle parenting advice that they’re being given, and what’s supposed to happen just doesn’t look like that for their kid. And that reminds me—the other podcast that we did about when peaceful parenting doesn’t “work,” we could link to that one too.Corey: Yes. Parents of complex kids are also trying to problem solve so many challenges because the world is often not designed for their kids, and it’s often not designed for them.Sarah: Say more about that—about “not designed for their kids.” What’s an example of how that might show up?Corey: So an example is conventional schooling. They’re expected to go into this noisy environment and just be able to eat the food they’ve been sent and listen all day and stay in their seats and learn the same way that everyone else is learning. I didn’t really realize how complex my kid was until I tried to send him to daycare.Sarah: I was just thinking about the spirit days at Big C’s school, and how you’ve shared with me that those spirit days—like pajama day or “everyone wear the school colors day”—for some typical kids can be exciting and fun and a diversion. And for complex kids that can cause a whole level of stress and anticipation and the change of routine. Other parents of non-complex kids might be like, “Whatever, it’s not a big deal.” For our complex kids, it throws them for a loop.Corey: Yes. My first moment of starting to realize there was something I needed to pay more attention to was they were having a movie day at Big C’s daycare, and they said he kept covering his ears and hiding. And that was my first idea that every other kid was so excited that it was movie day. They’d been looking forward to it. And for my child it was just so loud, and then suddenly the lights were turned off, and the whole situation was throwing him off.So that’s what I mean. We’re designing the world for kids who are excited about movie day or special event days. But for complex kids, this is a complete change in their routine and all sorts of different sensory things that are happening that can make it really hard for them.Sarah: Or that they can’t handle as much as other kids. I have a client who was just talking about how she’s realized for her son, who’s nine, that they literally can’t do anything after school. They can’t stop at the store and run in and grab a few things. They really just have to come straight home and not do anything extra or different. And he does so much better when he can just come home and unwind and needs that.Corey: Yes, exactly. So the world wasn’t designed for them. And then consequently, the world was often not designed for those parents either. So many of the people we work with—including ourselves—only start to realize how complex we are once we start identifying it in our children. So it’s just not really an accommodated world.Sarah: So talk about how that has led to burnout for you. And by the way, when you started talking about rock stars—in the membership the other day, in office hours, one of our members, I’ll call him D, who works incredibly hard and has two very complex kids, was just sharing how dark and hard life had been feeling for him lately. And I said, honestly, I just want to give you a medal. And I grabbed this off my desk and held it up—this silver milagro from Mexico that’s a bleeding heart. It was the closest thing I had to a medal.But I really feel like so many parents who have hard or more complex kids, all they feel is that they’re doing a bad job. They don’t realize that they’re up against something other people are not up against. They don’t realize that because that’s all they know—unless you have one kid that’s not complex and one that is—you just don’t know that you’re working so hard and things are still hard. It feels like you must be doing something wrong or failing. What they don’t realize is that you can do everything “right” in peaceful parenting, and things are still really hard if you’ve got a complex kid.Corey: Yes. And the last thing I want to say to help paint this picture is that these parents—part of what they’re dealing with, and I actually think this is huge—all parents today have a huge amount of family admin: managing appointments and things from the school and all those kinds of things. But that’s this other crushing weight we’re carrying as parents with complex kids: the admin.Sarah: Right.Corey: The amount of communication we have to do with daycare providers and teachers almost every day at points—Sarah: And also the searching. I’ve watched you go through this, and I watched my sister go through this, and countless clients. The searching to try to figure out what exactly is going on with my kid so that I can best support them. And even with the privilege you have and my sister has in terms of being able to access specialists and testing and all of that—even with that privilege—it’s still almost a full-time job. And then getting the OT or the supports too.Corey: Yes. I started for this podcast listing some of the people I’ve had to coordinate with over the years, and I was like: different types of medical doctors, occupational therapists, speech-language pathologists, psychologists, social workers, dieticians… so many. And just so much coordinating and searching. And the other thing that’s hard is you also then have homework from each of these people. So not only do you have to make appointments and get your children to appointments, you then have to fill out all this paperwork to get reimbursed or get payment sorted. Then there’s all the paperwork they want you to sign for ongoing parts of that. Then they have homework for the kids that they’re supposed to be doing all the time to help them with whatever’s going on. It’s endless.Sarah: Yeah. And then there’s the day-to-day. Tell us—paint a little picture of the day-to-day living. Not only do we have the world that isn’t built for them or for you, and then all of the extra stuff that goes along with having a complex kid, but then the day-to-day life. Speak to that a little bit.Corey: Yeah. I think that’s the thing you just see is so painful to talk about for all the people in our membership and our clients, and I’ve experienced it firsthand. You had children to add love to your family. And then you love them so much and you’re struggling because there’s chronic dysregulation, and they’re having such a hard time getting through your daily routines, and they need more supervision than the average child does. Just getting through the day can be really challenging when you have a complex kid. And then if you yourself are complex, your nervous system is getting completely overwhelmed by trying to be the calm for everyone’s storms.Sarah: It’s a lot, Corey. I understand why you get emotional about it. It’s a lot. And you’re still in the thick of it with two young kids. I think everyone who’s listening to this can relate.Okay. So how and when did you decide that you were going to quit special time, and what does that look like? And—I just want to center us here—the reason why we do special time is for connection, right? Complex kids need connection just as much or more than typical kids. And so just because we’re saying you might want to quit special time, it does not mean we’re saying you want to quit connection. So what does that look like? What have you found? Because I know you’re super connected with your kids. I’ve seen you together. I know the things they say to you and about you, and that you have an awesome connection. So what do you do for connection when special time does not work?Corey: A big thing that I’ve been telling clients and that I’ve done in my life is—first of all, I had to acknowledge to myself, it felt like shame. Because here I am—it’s one of the first things we tell everyone we work with: “Are you getting one-on-one time doing special time with your child?” And then I’m sitting there being like, but I don’t really do this. I get a ton of one-on-one time with my children. And I think that’s at the heart of it. But what I realized is because we’re carrying all those weights we talked about, your whole life feels like it’s all about this kid. And then to be like, “You know what? Let’s make it more about you and give you another 15 minutes,” just feels—I almost felt like I don’t have this in me.So I realized: let’s pick things that we can do together that are interesting for both them and me. Instead of getting locked in their play and being led by them, I’m finding things that we’re co-creating together.Sarah: And can I just note too that you’ve told me—and I know you said you talked about this in another podcast—but I just want to say it again: a lot of times complex kids’ play doesn’t look like typical kids’ play. So you might be like, “What do you want to play?” and they’re like, “I don’t know.” They don’t have the same kind of “Okay, let’s play store and you be this and I’ll be this.” Or they play with their toys in a different manner. So it can also be just awkward to insist that you play with them when that’s not their style anyway. I just wanted to throw that out there.Corey: Yeah. And, or if I did, they’re always telling me I’m doing everything wrong.Sarah: Right. Because I do think that play—I do think that for most kids, even though we’re saying don’t do special time—I do think that for most kids it is important to put yourself in their world. And I don’t want people to think, like, “Okay, this means I never have to try to do special time.” We’re just saying if it’s not working for you for these various reasons—whether it’s because of your own constraints like it was for Joanna, or because it doesn’t work for your kid—it doesn’t mean that you’re doing it wrong and that there’s no way to connect and that you should just give up.But I do think that—just a side note—I’d say the majority of kids, play in their world is the key to a lot of connection. But for some complex kids, that just isn’t their mode. For some of them.Corey: Yeah. Because I think we were coming out of special time feeling angry.Sarah: Right?Corey: Because we were coming out of it like, “I’m trying to get lost in my child’s world,” and he’s just like, “You’re not doing anything right, Mommy.” It was frustrating for him because he had these ideas and he couldn’t really get me to do it right. And I think for some kids that can be really empowering, where they like that feeling of being in control and telling them. But for him it was frustrating because he’s like, “I had this vision, and you are just not executing.” I’m like, “I don’t know, I’m trying to execute your vision.” So I think that’s why for us, I could just tell it wasn’t just me—neither of us were finding it was working.Sarah: But—Corey: We were desperately wanting to be together.Sarah: Okay. So you said “finding,” right? I interrupted you when you were talking about finding things that were co-interests—things that work for both of you, co-creating.Corey: Yes. When they were younger, one of the big things I did was buy myself really special pencil crayons and nice watercolor paints because both of them loved doing art. So I could sit and do art with them and use my fancy coloring books and feel very “we are together doing something” that was making me feel really good, but they also felt really happy, and they loved showing me what they were making.Sarah: And did you let them use your stuff? Because I think that would be really hard for me, because you can’t really be like, “These are my special things, and you use these Crayola ones.” How did you navigate that?Corey: Okay, so that was really hard. This never would work for my husband, so I’m going to acknowledge for some people this wouldn’t work. I let them grab my crayons, and they dropped them a lot. I acknowledged that they were not going to last. But I still wanted good ones available to me. So I had to be flexible. They definitely grabbed them, and the watercolors were wrecked really quickly. But they respected not touching my special brushes for some reason. So I kept my own special brushes for the painting.Sarah: You know, that reminds me—one of our members has a just-newly-3-year-old who’s super complex, and she was talking about how she was doing a jigsaw puzzle, like a proper adult thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. And she was really worried that—since it was on the table in a room where the parents could be—her kid was just going to come in and wreck it. Instead, her child is really good at jigsaw puzzles and is doing them with her. So I think sometimes—she’s totally shocked and thrilled that this has become something—and this is clearly a case of coming into the adult world of a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. You just reminded me—she put a post in our Facebook group about how… I don’t know, did you see that post?Corey: Yeah, I did.Sarah: About how wonderful it’s been to have her just-turned-3-year-old do these adult jigsaw puzzles with her. So that’s a perfect example of what you’re talking about, I think.Corey: I think it’s—so I love what you’re saying here, because we’re always told “go into their world,” but there’s something really powerful about letting them into yours. I didn’t actually realize that’s what I was doing—I’ve been bringing them into my world with me, and then they feel really special being allowed in there with me. And so it creates this really beautiful thing, but I’m flexible about letting them in there, knowing it’s going to look different.Sarah: Right. What are some other things that you’ve done besides art that might be inspiring?Corey: I realized a long time ago I had to let go of the idea that I needed to read really interesting books to my kids so that every night we could look forward to reading beautiful stories that drew me in. We actually realized bedtime has started getting hard again, and we realized it’s because we’re in between books. So that is something—and a shout-out to my mom; she’s really good at researching books—she’s come up with some really cool books that have really diverse characters and really interesting stories. That’s been another really important thing: don’t just read. I’ve picked really good books that draw me in.And so last night we actually just started a favorite series of mine. I kid you not, I’m reading to my 10-year-old a feminist fantasy book that I read when I was a tween. It’s called Dealing with Dragons, and he actually is loving it.Sarah: Nice. So you’re saying—maybe you misspoke—you said you had to give up on reading books that you… beautiful books that you liked. But did you mean that you were finding beautiful books that you liked?Corey: Yeah, sorry, that’s—earlier on I felt like I was just reading, you know, books that I thought they would like.Sarah: Oh, okay.Corey: But instead I was like, “The heck with that,” and I found books that I loved, and I started reading those to my kids. And then they loved them. And then that really got us so excited about bedtime.Sarah: Great, great.Corey: We got through it, and we would read that together, and it became—I actually think reading books that I love to my kids has become one of the most important special times that we have each day.Sarah: So another co-creating—something that’s interesting to both of you. And it’s not necessarily going into their world and reading the Captain Underpants or something that they might like that you find mind-numbingly boring. And maybe Captain Underpants isn’t boring—I’ve never read it—but I’m just using that as an example.Corey: That’s a perfect example. So it’s like, here, I’m providing those books for them to read to themselves for their reading time. Absolutely—read all the Captain Underpants, the Dog Man you would like. But my goodness, when I’m reading to you, I’m picking something. And look, we’ve abandoned lots of books that we started reading that they couldn’t get into. We keep—we just keep trying.Sarah: Okay. What else—what else is next?Corey: Exercise.Sarah: Okay.Corey: I’ve realized exercise for me is the number one way for me to deal with stress. Of all things, I need to exercise to help manage stress. And it’s very hard to fit in exercise when you have complex kids. So from the time they were little, we’ve been very flexible about how we’ve done it. But my husband and I have—once again, instead of picking things they’re naturally into (this is starting to sound really funny)—we just brought them into our exercise with us, and they love it. From the time they were little, we had a balance bike for my littlest guy. He was on that balance bike, and we were riding bikes together.So my littlest one ended up being able to ride a regular bike before he was three.Sarah: Same with Maxine. Those balance bikes are amazing. She just—yeah. It’s crazy.Corey: Yeah. And sometimes—Sarah: Sometimes you’re like, “What have I done?” The 3-year-old is riding off.Corey: It’s true. It was unbelievable, though. So we just rode our bikes together. From the time ours were very little, we had them as little guys on—you can get an attachment to your bike—and my husband put them on his road bike with him and would take them for rides on his road bike.Sarah: There’s also the trailer bike too, which we had, which is good.Corey: So we did that. We had our youngest on skis when he was two. COVID kind of interrupted some of that, but now we ski every weekend with our kids, and we decided to do that instead of putting them into organized sports so that we would all be doing it together.Sarah: Oh, I love that. Instead of dropping them off and they’re playing soccer, you’re all doing stuff together.Corey: Yes.Sarah: I mean, and you could—and, you know, for other families—you could just go and kick the ball. Or I always say, chase your kids around the playground if you feel like you don’t have time to exercise but you need to. It can be that simple, right? Kicking the ball around, chasing them around the playground—get some exercise and have some connection time too.Corey: Yeah. One of the ways we got our one son kind of good at running is taking the kite to the park, and we just ran around with the kite. But we started even going to—and I advised another family to do this—going to a track together, because it’s a contained area where everyone could run at different speeds. And the really little ones were playing on the inside of the track with soccer balls and things like that, and then everyone else could be running around the track.Sarah: Love it.Corey: So getting really creative about literally bringing them into our world of things that we love, and then connecting deeply. And it’s one of those things where it’s an investment you make over time. It starts small, and you have to be really flexible. And there are these little hands grabbing all your fancy pencil crayons, and you’re having to deal with it. And then one day you’re sitting beside them, and they’re using them themselves—drawing works of art.Sarah: Yeah, yeah.Corey: And it’s happening now where my older son and I have been going for runs together around the neighborhood, and we have the best talks ever because I’m sideways listening. We should talk about sideways listening, actually.Sarah: Okay.Corey: So I learned about this from you. You have a great article—I recommend it to everyone—it’s called “Staying Close to Your Tweens and Teens,” and that’s where you talk about how it’s actually easier for people, I think, to have important conversations when you’re side to side, because it’s not that intensity of looking at each other’s faces. This is extra true for neurodivergent people who sometimes have a hard time with eye contact and talking in that way. So we go for these runs together all around our neighborhood, and I hear everything from my son during that time because we’re side by side. So it’s become special time, where it started when I taught him to come into my world with the track running and all the different things, and now that we’re running, he’s bringing me into his world.Sarah: Love it. Do you find that a lot of complex kids have special interests—do you find that there’s a way that you can connect with them over their special interest? Does that feel connecting to you if it’s not something—like, I’m literally just curious about that.Corey: I think that can be tricky, but I do think it’s very important. I’ve learned that I was having a hard time with how much my kids loved video games because I’ve never liked video games. And, you know, as someone with ADHD, it’s so hard to focus on things that I don’t find interesting. And I realized that I’ve spent all this time cultivating bringing them into my world, and we’ve gotten to such a beautiful, connected space that I do need to go into theirs. And now that they’re older, I’m finding it is easier to go into their world, because we’re not trying to make some sort of play thing happen that wasn’t natural.Sarah: Right.Corey: So I have been making a point now of—I’ve sat down and been like, “Show me how to play. I’m a beginner. Teach me how to do this.” And I’ve been playing video games with them. I’m so bad.Sarah: You know, in our podcast with Scott Novus about how to stop fighting with your kids about video games, he says how good it is for kids to see you be bad at something.Corey: They’re seeing it.Sarah: I love that.Corey: I’m so bad. I cannot even a little bit. So they find it very funny. I’ve been playing with them and letting them talk to me about it, and I’ve found that’s been really important too. Because I keep on saying, “Do you see why they love this so much?” And I’m kind of like, yes—and I see what skills you’re learning now that I’ve tried it. It takes so much skill and practice to be good at these complex video games on the Switch and on the PlayStation. So I am learning a lot, and I feel like we are shifting now, where I found a way to connect with them by bringing them along with what I was into, and now that they’re older, we are switching where I’m able to go back into their world.Sarah: Right. Love it. So we also—you know, I think delighting is something that probably you still do, and we always talk about that as the low-hanging fruit. If you can’t do special time or it doesn’t work for you, delighting in your child throughout the day—letting the love that you feel in your heart show on your face, right? And then finally, you talked about using routine—the things that you do throughout the day—as connection. Can you talk about that a little bit before we go?Corey: Yes. So this is where long-time listeners of our podcast know that although special time is a big fail for us, I’m really good at being silly with my kids. Really good at being silly. And I’m very inspired listening to Mia from Playful Heart—Playful Heart Parenting. I think I told you, listening to her talk, it was like the first time I heard someone talking about exactly how I do playful parenting. And it’s just injecting play and silliness and drama throughout your everyday things you’re doing together. And so we do that all the time to get through the schedule. Especially now, my 10-year-old is starting to act a little too cool for some of this, but it’s still really happening with my 7-year-old, where we’re always singing weird songs about what we’re doing, and I’ll take on weird accents and be my characters. I’m not going to demonstrate them here—it’s far too embarrassing—but I still have my long-running characters I can’t get over.Sarah: You’ve got, like, the dental hygienist—what’s her name?Corey: Karen. Karen the dental hygienist.Sarah: What’s the bus driver’s name?Corey: I have Brett the bus driver. We have “Deep Breath,” who’s like a yogi who comes in when everyone needs to take deep breaths. There’s—oh, her name’s So? I’m not sure why. So is the dresser who’s really serious and doesn’t know how to smile. So if my kids ever need help—this has also been a big way that I delight in them, I think—if they ever need help getting dressed (which complex kids need help getting dressed for a long—)Sarah: And even body doubling when they don’t need help getting dressed, right?Corey: Yes. So I would always pretend to be a dresser who was sent in to get them dressed in their clothes, and they didn’t know how to smile. So they’re always trying to teach me how to smile when I’m keeping a serious face. And actually, recently I was doing this and I was having such a hard time not laughing that my lips started visibly quivering trying not to smile and laugh.Sarah: I love that.Corey: I think it was the hardest I’ve ever seen my 7-year-old laugh. He was on the floor laughing because I was like—Sarah: And for anyone who this sounds hard for—just, you know, it takes practice, and anyone, I think, can learn to be playful. And I love Mia’s account—we’ll link to that in the show notes. I love Mia’s account for ideas just to get you started, because I know you—you’re a drama kid. I’m not. But I still found ways to get playful even though it’s not my natural instinct. And so you can—this way of getting playful and connecting through the day and through your daily routine—you can do that. It’ll take maybe a little practice; you might feel funny at first. But I think it’s possible for everyone to do that.So thank you so much. We have to wrap up, but I also want to point out that anyone who wants to connect with you, reach out to us. Corey’s available for coaching. She’s a wonderful coach. And I have people who specifically ask for Corey because they can relate to Corey’s experience as a parent of complex kids. And so, on our website, reimaginepeacefulparenting.com, there is a booking link for a free short consult or for a coaching session. We’ll also put that in the show notes. So if you want some more support, please reach out to us. Either of us are here and want to help you.And, Corey, thank you for your honesty and vulnerability—vulnerability about being a parent of a complex kid and sharing how you can do that connection, even if it feels like special time is just too hard and something that doesn’t work for you or for your kid. And thanks to Joanna for also inspiring us to get this out there to you all.Corey, before I let you go, I’m going to ask the question I ask all my guests, which is: what would you tell your—you had a time machine and you could go back in time—what would you tell your younger parent self?Corey: Okay.Sarah: About parenting? What do you wish you knew?Corey: I think what I wish I knew—I think this is easier than I thought it would be, because I just told my best friend who just had a baby this—and it’s: trust your intuition. I think I spent so much time looking for answers outside of myself, and I could feel they weren’t right for my kid or for me, that I was so confused because other people were telling me, “This is what you should be doing.” And the more I’ve learned to trust my gut instinct and just connect deeply—and this special time example is perfect—I knew it wasn’t working for us, and I intuitively knew other ways to do it. And I wish I could have just trusted that earlier.Sarah: And stopped doing it sooner and just gone with the other connection ideas. Yeah. Thank you so much, Corey. This has been so great. And, again, we’ll put the link to anyone who wants to book a free short consult or coaching session, and also to our membership, which you’ve heard us mention a few times, which is just a wonderful space on the internet for people who want some community and support with their complex kid.Thanks, Corey.Corey: Thank you.>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. 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