Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast

Most people think Bitcoin venture capital is just buying early and waiting. VJ Vesnaver, operating partner at Epoch, says the real work is finding the founders building the infrastructure that makes Bitcoin's future inevitable and backing them before anyone else sees it. Wyatt and Jordan sit down with VJ to unpack what it actually looks like to run a Bitcoin-native venture fund in a market where AI is sucking all the oxygen out of the room, treasury companies are dominating the narrative, and the highest quality builders are the ones nobody's talking about yet. VJ walks through Epoch's thesis from the ground up. Why bear markets produce better pipeline, how Bitcoin venture differs from traditional VC, and why the internal hurdle rate isn't a percentage, it's Bitcoin itself. From layer twos finding their niche to the regulatory tightrope founders walk daily, VJ gives a ground-level view of what's actually getting built in the Bitcoin ecosystem right now. They get into the Bitcoin treasury company debate. Where VJ lands on the Parker Lewis vs. Michael Saylor tension, why he didn't invest in any of them, and what it would actually take for treasury companies to generate real yield beyond financial engineering. Then the conversation moves to AI. Whether the productivity gains are real, why open source is the natural counter to regulatory capture of frontier models, and how agentic payments could quietly push Bitcoin deeper into the medium of exchange phase faster than any orange-pilling campaign ever could. We close out with what Epoch is watching right now. The boring, regulated, unsexy infrastructure plays that nobody's excited about yet, why banks lending against Bitcoin is still a massive unsolved problem, and VJ's case for why the courts, not Congress, are the real long-term guardians of freedom money. 🎟️ Join Us in Denver, Bitcoin Financial Services Summit The Bitcoin Financial Services Summit returns October 20-22 in Denver, Colorado. RIAs, CPAs, lenders, miners, treasury companies, and Bitcoin-native operators all in one room. If you want to understand where Bitcoin and finance is going next, this is where you need to be. Get your tickets at bffs.media Chapters 00:00 Welcome Back and Introductions 05:07 Investing in the Bitcoin Ecosystem 08:04 Market Dynamics: Bear vs. Bull 11:17 Institutional Involvement and Regulation 14:45 The Role of Bitcoin Treasury Companies 17:36 AI's Impact on Bitcoin and Startups 38:04 The Impact of Money Printing on Wealth Inequality 41:05 AI's Role in Asset Inflation and Bitcoin's Appeal 42:49 Capital Flow: Bitcoin vs. AI Investments 46:32 Investing in Regulated Bitcoin Financial Products 49:38 The Future of AI: Open Source vs. Centralization 53:41 Navigating Regulatory Challenges in Crypto 59:14 The Role of Courts in Shaping Crypto Law 01:04:25 Bitcoin Financial Services Summit Guest: VJ Vesnaver Epoch VC X: @VJVesnaver Website: epochvc.io Host Links Wyatt O'Rourke X: x.com/wyattorourke_ Website: basilic.io Jordan Guess X: x.com/jordanguess LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jordan-guess-cpa Website: bitment.co Bitcoin Financial Services Media X: x.com/bffs_media Website: bffs.media YouTube: @bffs_media Show Sponsors Basilic Financial: Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm helping clients find balance between money and meaning. Financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. basilic.io Bitment: Tired of messy CSVs and broken cost basis? Bitment is the first Bitcoin-native accounting platform for CPAs, advisors, miners, and serious investors. Clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost tracking, full reporting, and seamless fiat integration through Plaid. bitment.co Satoshi Pacioli: Run a Bitcoin business? Meet your full-service accounting and tax partner built for the Bitcoin economy. Bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for companies and individuals who speak Bitcoin. satoshipacioli.com

In this episode, we sit down with a CPA and financial advisor to deconstruct why traditional value investing models are failing in the current economic environment. We explore the critical flaw in modern accounting, which relies on an unstable dollar that distorts business performance and erodes long‑term wealth. By analyzing ten years of data comparing the S&P 500 against M2 money supply growth, we reveal how many investors are simply treading water rather than generating real returns. We also discuss how the convergence of AI and Bitcoin creates a deflationary future that contrasts sharply with the inflationary reality of fiat currency. This conversation challenges financial professionals to fix their measuring stick before it is too late. Chapters (00:00:00) - Guest introduction (00:02:09) - Merging Tax Services with Bitcoin Wealth Management (00:08:00) - The Success of a Physical Bitcoin Office (00:12:35) - Why Traditional Value Investing Models Are Failing (00:14:12) - The Danger of Measuring Wealth in Unstable Dollars (00:21:35) - Why Bitcoin Is the Only Stable Unit of Account (00:24:00) - Exposing the Flaw in Corporate Finance Assumptions (00:32:38) - Researching M2 Money Supply vs. S&P 500 Returns (00:37:00) - Is the 60/40 Portfolio Strategy Dead? (00:41:00) - Calculating True Inflation Beyond the CPI (00:45:50) - Shrinkflation and the Hidden Cost of Quality Reduction (00:49:00) - The Disconnect Between Wall Street and Main Street (00:51:40) - How AI and Bitcoin Drive Future Deflation (00:54:50) - The Hopeful Case for Bitcoin Adoption Guest Links Jonathan Kamps, CPA at Orange Horizon Wealth, LLC, a division of Vista Investment Partners X: https://twitter.com/KampsJonathan Jonathan's article The Illusion of Growth: https://tinyurl.com/66meh4ek Orange Horizon Wealth Website: https://www.orangehorizonwealth.com/ Host Links Jordan Guess: X: https://twitter.com/jordanguess Discord: https://discord.com/invite/Xg55GVkc3f Wyatt O'Rourke: X: https://twitter.com/wyattorourke_ Website: https://www.basilic.io/ Bitcoin for Financial Services Media Links: X: https://twitter.com/BFFS_media Website: https://bffs.media/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@BFFS_Media Check out our awesome show sponsors! Basilic Financial: Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm that helps clients find balance between money and meaning. Basilic integrates sound‑money strategies across four personalized services: financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. (Link: https://www.basilic.io/) Bitment: Tired of messy CSVs and broken cost basis? Bitment is the first Bitcoin-native accounting platform for CPAs, advisors, miners, and serious investors, delivering clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost tracking, full reporting, and seamless fiat integration through Plaid. Ditch the headaches with robust accounting for the hardest money on earth. (Link: https://www.bitment.co/) Satoshi Pacioli: Run a Bitcoin business? Meet your full-service accounting and tax partner built for the Bitcoin economy. Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for companies and individuals. Work with advisors who speak Bitcoin and keep you compliant while building long-term value. (Link: https://satoshipacioli.com/)

We sit down with Lightning Network executive Bobby Shell to explore how Bitcoin is maturing from a tinkerer's hobby into an essential enterprise powerhouse. We break down the massive shift in payment rails, revealing how major players like Cash App are generating nearly 10% yield on their holdings without exposure to traditional lending risks. The conversation dissects the mechanics of accessing USD liquidity without selling your Bitcoin and explains why privacy on the Lightning Network is far superior to on-chain transactions. We also cover the upcoming integration of stablecoins and why businesses in high-risk industries like gaming are rushing to adopt this technology. This is a masterclass on the future of institutional payments and the moral imperative of sound money. Chapters (00:00:00) - Intro and Bobby Shell Background (00:05:18) - Why Voltage Pivoted to Enterprise Sales (00:08:00) - Refuting Common Lightning Network FUD (00:12:45) - Real Enterprise Adoption Metrics (00:16:50) - Get USD Liquidity Without Selling Bitcoin (00:20:20) - How Cash App Earned 9.7% Yield (00:23:45) - Solving the Liquidity Problem (00:28:15) - The Future of Stablecoins on Lightning (00:33:55) - Why iGaming Is Adopting Bitcoin (00:37:45) - Privacy: On-Chain vs. Lightning Network (00:41:30) - Bitcoin as a Moral Lifeline (00:44:30) - Closing Thoughts on 2026 Outlook Guest Links Bobby Shell, Vice President of Marketing at Voltage X: https://twitter.com/iBobbyShell/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobby-shell-iv/ Voltage Website: https://voltage.cloud/ Host Links Jordan Guess: X: https://twitter.com/jordanguess Discord: https://discord.com/invite/Xg55GVkc3f Wyatt O'Rourke: X: https://twitter.com/wyattorourke_ Website: https://www.basilic.io/ Bitcoin for Financial Services Media Links: X: https://twitter.com/BFFS_media Website: https://bffs.media/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@BFFS_Media Check out our awesome show sponsors! Basilic Financial: Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm that helps clients find balance between money and meaning. Basilic integrates sound‑money strategies across four personalized services: financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. (Link: https://www.basilic.io/) Bitment: Tired of messy CSVs and broken cost basis? Bitment is the first Bitcoin-native accounting platform for CPAs, advisors, miners, and serious investors, delivering clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost tracking, full reporting, and seamless fiat integration through Plaid. Ditch the headaches with robust accounting for the hardest money on earth. (Link: https://www.bitment.co/) Satoshi Pacioli: Run a Bitcoin business? Meet your full-service accounting and tax partner built for the Bitcoin economy. Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for companies and individuals. Work with advisors who speak Bitcoin and keep you compliant while building long-term value. (Link: https://satoshipacioli.com/)

In this episode, we sit down with Adam Simecka to discuss the critical importance of building tools for independent value transfer in an increasingly surveilled world. We explore why self-custody is the only true protection against the looming threat of CBDCs and why relying on exchanges is a dangerous game for your wealth. Our conversation breaks down the technical mechanics of private keys, signing devices, and the inherent risks found in crypto lending platforms. We also analyze the recent controversy surrounding Michael Saylor’s comments on Bitcoin treasuries and what it implies for the future of corporate adoption. Finally, we demonstrate just how fast small business owners can opt out of the fiat system and start accepting Bitcoin directly. Chapters (00:00:00) - Building an escape hatch from the fiat collapse (00:02:24) - Adam Samecka’s journey from Air Force to Bitcoin (00:12:09) - The critical difference between custody and IOUs (00:16:38) - Lessons learned from the FTX collapse (00:19:30) - Proof of Reserves and the limits of trust (00:21:12) - collaborative custody and multi-sig explained (00:24:40) - Breaking down public versus private keys (00:26:45) - Why "Hardware Wallet" is a misleading term (00:35:00) - The mission to build a functional Anti-CBDC (00:36:20) - Why Bitcoin lending recreates the fractional reserve system (00:39:50) - Analyzing the Michael Saylor and Danny Knowles debate (00:50:40) - Why earning Bitcoin is superior to buying it (00:53:50) - How to set up a Bitcoin POS in 60 seconds Guest Links Adam Simecka, Founder of Manna & Board Advisor at Bitcoin Is Better: X: https://twitter.com/AdamSimecka/ Manna Website: https://mannabitcoin.com/ Bitcoin Is Better Website: https://www.bitcoinisbetter.org/ Host Links Jordan Guess: X: https://twitter.com/jordanguess Discord: https://discord.com/invite/Xg55GVkc3f Wyatt O'Rourke: X: https://twitter.com/wyattorourke_ Website: https://www.basilic.io/ Bitcoin for Financial Services Media Links: X: https://twitter.com/BFFS_media Website: https://bffs.media/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@BFFS_Media Check out our awesome show sponsors! Basilic Financial: Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm that helps clients find balance between money and meaning. Basilic integrates sound‑money strategies across four personalized services: financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. (Link: https://www.basilic.io/) Bitment: Tired of messy CSVs and broken cost basis? Bitment is the first Bitcoin-native accounting platform for CPAs, advisors, miners, and serious investors, delivering clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost tracking, full reporting, and seamless fiat integration through Plaid. Ditch the headaches with robust accounting for the hardest money on earth. (Link: https://www.bitment.co/) Satoshi Pacioli: Run a Bitcoin business? Meet your full-service accounting and tax partner built for the Bitcoin economy. Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for companies and individuals. Work with advisors who speak Bitcoin and keep you compliant while building long-term value. (Link: https://satoshipacioli.com/)

We sit down with Travis MacDonald, a CPA and CFA who left the traditional M&A world to build financial infrastructure for the Bitcoin economy. He breaks down why the Bitcoin Treasury narrative is often oversimplified and categorizes the four distinct ways companies are actually putting Bitcoin on their balance sheets. We explore how businesses can use Bitcoin to solve retention issues through long-term incentives and drive daily efficiency with micro-rewards. Finally, we discuss the mechanics of convertible debentures and how smart corporate governance can secure capital in a volatile market. Chapters (00:00:00) - Welcome and why this guest matters (00:01:55) - From audit to M&A, valuation, and CFO work (00:05:24) - Finding Bitcoin in 2021 and going all in (00:10:00) - Why retention is breaking for employers (00:12:08) - Compensating in sound money vs fiat wages (00:14:39) - Micro incentives in sats with Lightning settlement (00:17:59) - The future: real-time pay and streaming sats (00:20:09) - How employers introduce Bitcoin benefits (00:21:21) - Education: learning management and incentives (00:23:47) - Employees can stack sats without corporate BTC (00:28:30) - The four types of “Bitcoin treasury companies” (00:33:03) - Managing Bitcoin on the balance sheet (00:36:32) - Bitcoin-secured convertible debentures for startups (00:42:28) - 2026 outlook: TradFi adoption and reality checks (00:48:03) - Privacy, regulation, and ETF centralization risk (00:53:04) - Advice for CPAs, CFAs, CFPs entering Bitcoin Guest Links Travis MacDonald, CFO at Block Rewards LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismacdonald/ X: https://x.com/TJMacD Nostr: https://primal.net/p/npub1xmmmcw3lgzc3p904g65xky0lrw4u0jn3z8yynrttd9gvl3mxx62q4cr2m6 Block Rewards Website: https://blockrewards.ca/ Host Links Jordan Guess: X: https://twitter.com/jordanguess Discord: https://discord.com/invite/Xg55GVkc3f Wyatt O'Rourke: X: https://twitter.com/wyattorourke_ Website: https://www.basilic.io/ Bitcoin for Financial Services Media Links: X: https://twitter.com/BFFS_media Website: https://bffs.media/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@BFFS_Media Check out our awesome show sponsors! Basilic Financial: Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm that helps clients find balance between money and meaning. Basilic integrates sound‑money strategies across four personalized services: financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. (Link: https://www.basilic.io/) Bitment: Tired of messy CSVs and broken cost basis? Bitment is the first Bitcoin-native accounting platform for CPAs, advisors, miners, and serious investors, delivering clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost tracking, full reporting, and seamless fiat integration through Plaid. Ditch the headaches with robust accounting for the hardest money on earth. (Link: https://www.bitment.co/) Satoshi Pacioli: Run a Bitcoin business? Meet your full-service accounting and tax partner built for the Bitcoin economy. Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for companies and individuals. Work with advisors who speak Bitcoin and keep you compliant while building long-term value. (Link: https://satoshipacioli.com/)

We sat down with Jon Gordon and Stuart Lackey, co-founders of SoundHSA, to unpack why healthcare costs keep rising, why patients rarely see real prices, and where incentives break when third parties sit between doctors and customers. We walk through the HSA’s triple tax advantage, how most people underutilize it, and why pairing HSAs with real Bitcoin changes the long-term savings conversation. Jon and Stu also explain their go-to-market strategy, from sats-for-steps wellness challenges to a modern onboarding experience for a historically clunky, form-driven account type. We discuss how employers can use HSAs more strategically, including contributions and plan design, especially as talent markets tighten. Finally, we get into the practical mechanics, fiat in, Bitcoin inside the account, and the custody setup designed for institutional-grade security, plus the longer-term goal of spending Bitcoin directly in healthcare. Chapters (00:00:00) - Real Bitcoin HSA, Not ETFs (00:01:55) - Jon Gordon And Stuart Lackey Join (00:03:09) - Stu’s Healthcare Background And Why Costs Exploded (00:04:45) - Jon’s Healthcare Economics Path To Bitcoin (00:07:01) - Why Patients Don’t Know Prices (And CrowdHealth) (00:08:27) - HSA 101, Market Size, And How People Misuse It (00:09:24) - Triple Tax Advantage And HSA After Age 65 (00:10:26) - Policy Tailwinds, Eligibility, And Direct Primary Care (00:13:09) - Employers, Plan Design, Matches, And Bitcoin Talent Strategy (00:18:37) - Go To Market: Grassroots Bitcoin First (00:20:09) - Sats For Steps App, Nostr Identity, Lightning Wallet Roadmap (00:29:06) - Sound Health: Low Time Preference, Real Food, Preventative Care (00:39:21) - Healthcare Reactions, Adoption, And Bitcoin Physicians Network (00:45:44) - Launch Details: Fiat In, Bitcoin Inside, Cash Out Guest Links Stu Lackey, MS, HCI & Jon Gordon, MS, MA Stu on X: https://twitter.com/StuartLackey1 Jon on X: https://twitter.com/thebitcoinyogi SoundHSA Website: https://soundhsa.com/ Host Links Jordan Guess: X: https://twitter.com/jordanguess Discord: https://discord.com/invite/Xg55GVkc3f Wyatt O'Rourke: X: https://twitter.com/wyattorourke_ Website: https://www.basilic.io/ Bitcoin for Financial Services Media Links: X: https://twitter.com/BFFS_media Website: https://bffs.media/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@BFFS_Media Check out our awesome show sponsors! Basilic Financial: Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm that helps clients find balance between money and meaning. Basilic integrates sound‑money strategies across four personalized services: financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. (Link: https://www.basilic.io/) Bitment: Tired of messy CSVs and broken cost basis? Bitment is the first Bitcoin-native accounting platform for CPAs, advisors, miners, and serious investors, delivering clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost tracking, full reporting, and seamless fiat integration through Plaid. Ditch the headaches with robust accounting for the hardest money on earth. (Link: https://www.bitment.co/) Satoshi Pacioli: Run a Bitcoin business? Meet your full-service accounting and tax partner built for the Bitcoin economy. Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for companies and individuals. Work with advisors who speak Bitcoin and keep you compliant while building long-term value. (Link: https://satoshipacioli.com/)