The Dishcast with Andrew Sullivan

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.comMichael is the best nonfiction writer in America — and another friend from the early TNR days. He’s the author of so many bestsellers, including Liar’s Poker, Moneyball, The Blind Side, and Flash Boys. He was on the Dishcast four years ago to discuss The Premonition: A Pandemic Story, and last year to discuss a collection of essays called Who Is Government?This week we’re covering his new book, Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State, which profiles some unknown heroes in the bureaucracy who defended the rule of law against Trump in his second term — and faced the consequences. Think of it as the flip-side of Jake Weisberg’s treatment of the powerful cowards who caved.The episode was recorded on September 29, 2026, and aired on October 9. Timestamps for the main sections:* 03:36: How Michael decided to frame and shape the book* 11:32: DOGE as the tip of the spear for Trump 2.0* 27:36: The physical takeover of buildings by DOGE* 42:45: The amazing story of Alex Marangides inventing a new fire science* 101:20: Covid policy and the turmoil at the National Institutes of Health* 119:32: Michael’s moving tribute to his daughter DixieFor three audio clips — why DOGE was never really about downsizing, the only member of DOGE who was fired, and Michael writing a play for his deceased daughter — head to our YouTube page.More topics covered: how Trump 2.0 is different than 1.0; firing his transition team in 2016; the purging of enemies after 2024; Musk wanting to take control of NASA; reversing woke terminology; bypassing Congress; weaponizing private data; Musk promising pardons to DOGE; dismantling USAID; Vought and knee-capping the NIH; Michael’s scoop that Francis Collins was actually fired; debating the culpability of Bhattacharya; the Clinton-Gore downsizing; fixing the ozone layer; Trump’s sycophants; the horrifying Howard Lutnick; and inspiring stories of civil servants standing up for their role and the rule of law.

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.comJake is a journalist and a dear old friend, starting in our early days as interns together at TNR. He’s the former longtime editor of Slate and the co-founder of the podcast company Pushkin Industries. He’s also the chairman of The Committee to Protect Journalists and a regular contributor to the New York Review of Books. His new book is called Profiles in Cowardice: A Study of Collaboration in the Trump Era.A polished transcript is here, including money quotes. Below are timestamps for the main sections of the pod:* 04:09: Jake’s background that made him especially attuned to corruption and totalitarianism* 18:45: Contrasting the craven Lindsey Graham with the principled Liz Cheney* 25:45: How Megyn Kelly — and others demonized by the left — came to support Trump* 35:15: Liberal lawyers like Brad Karp who needlessly bent the knee* 45:52: Debating the culpability of colleges targeted by Trump* 53:36: Jeff Bezos’ 180 and his lifelong obsession with space travel* 58:43: The abomination of January 6th and McConnell caving over the impeachment* 102:28: Debating the culpability of John Roberts for Trump’s success* 117:26: Reminiscing on our early days at TNR and the genius of Mike KinsleyFor two clips of the episode — on why McConnell balked at banning Trump, and how Megyn Kelly became a bully — head to our YouTube page.Other topics: growing up in Chicago with public servants for parents; his dad taking on the Daley machine; Jake’s talent for takedowns back at TNR; South Park mocking Trump; Stop the Steal and Jan 6; Biden’s clusterfuck campaign; the Cheneys backing Harris; Trump’s retribution; the weakness of Schumer; McCain’s nonconformity; Massie’s cojones; the university deals with Trump; his talent as a bully; higher ed’s dearth of viewpoint diversity; anti-semitism in the Ivy League; Musk and the big subsidies for SpaceX; decimating USAID and PEPFAR; Bezos funding the Melania doc; SCOTUS checking tariffs; the presidential immunity ruling; the post-presidencies of Bush and Obama; and the one magazine piece I would never write.Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Emily Eakin on the French postmodernists, Sean Illing on the relevance of Camus and Nietzsche, Michael Lewis on the bureaucrats who fought back against Trump, and Evan Barker on how the Democratic Party got hijacked by elite activists. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.comAzam is an international investigative reporter for the New York Times. He used to be the Times bureau chief in Afghanistan, as well as Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean. He won a Pulitzer last year for his work on the US intervention in Afghanistan, among other awards. He’s also the author of Fear Is Just A Word: A Missing Daughter, a Violent Cartel, and a Mother’s Quest for Vengeance. I discovered him simply by reading the paper and noticing an extraordinary ability to ferret out the truth. In conversation, Azam did not disappoint. A polished transcript is here, including money quotes from the chat. Below are timestamps for the main sections of the pod:05:23: Growing up in a Pakistani family in a small-town Virginia10:36: The value of fiction over nonfiction22:26: Azam’s time reporting on Wall Street, and then the horrors in Afghanistan46:24: A deep dive into a terrifying new wave of synthetic drugs1:03:56: The violent settlers in the West Bank and the Israeli officials speaking outFor two clips of the episode — on the new wave of dangerous drugs, and the Israeli government arming the West Bank settlers — head to our YouTube page.Other topics: the lack of bigotry in Azam’s upbringing in the South; how UVA was more tribal than his high school; the war on terror; nation-building; how little the US understood Afghanistan; funding warlords against the Taliban; not talking to Taliban officials; US propaganda and lies; a story of suicide; Estonia beating fentanyl; the mega-potency of new drugs like nitazenes; drug-soaked paper causing overdoses in US prisons; why targeting suppliers doesn’t work anymore; harm reduction and Narcan; methadone; decriminalization in Portugal; the popularity of weed; the cynicism and evil of Hamas; dead kids in Gaza and US bombs; the depravity of Ben-Gvir; high-ranking Israelis against the settlements; and Bibi’s polling for the coming election.Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Emily Eakin on postmodernism, Jake Weisberg on the cowards who caved to Trump, Michael Lewis on the federal workers who fought back, and Arianna Huffington on living well. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].