The MAD Podcast with Matt Turck

Cloudflare CEO and co-founder Matthew Prince joins Matt Turck for a wide-ranging and fascinating conversation about what happens when the Internet is no longer mostly used by humans, but by bots, AI agents and machines. Matthew explains why Cloudflare now sees automated traffic overtaking human traffic online, why agents could create a massive explosion in Internet traffic, and why the old web business model built around clicks, ads, and pageviews may be breaking. We also go deep on what Cloudflare actually does, how it built one of the world’s most important Internet networks, why products like Workers, AI Gateway, edge inference, Durable Objects, sandboxes, and agent security matter, and how Cloudflare is reorganizing itself for the AI era. Along the way, Matthew shares wild Cloudflare origin stories involving hacker kids, human rights groups, cricket in Pakistan, root servers, Eurovision, JPMorgan, and the strange paths that led Cloudflare from scrappy startup to critical Internet infrastructure.(00:00) — Cold open(00:34) — Intro(01:27) — The moment bots passed humans online(04:05) — "Agent," "bot," "crawler" — what they really mean(05:28) — Why your AI agent visits 5,000 sites to do one thing(06:27) — The internet's business model is breaking(06:52) — What happens to "brands" when machines do the buying(08:11) — What Cloudflare actually does, explained simply(10:29) — Hackers, human rights groups & an accidental product-market fit(13:37) — Building a global network (and the Telecom Pakistan cricket story)(21:10) — One hacker, from Turkish escort sites to Eurovision to JP Morgan(30:54) — Fundraising, VCs & an unlikely founding team(37:06) — How Cloudflare became an AI infrastructure company(40:24) — Cloudflare Workers and why the edge wins for inference(44:30) — AI Gateway: auditing, guardrails & runaway costs(47:05) — Why agents need a new kind of compute(52:13) — A "Log4j every week": security in the agentic era(56:03) — Inside Cloudflare: 241 billion tokens and "Cloudflare OS"(01:05:02) — Builders, sellers — and "measurers"(01:06:30) — The decision Matthew thinks every company will face(01:11:09) — What to do if AI is coming for your job(01:13:56) — Content Independence Day & the new economics of the web(01:18:27) — Pay-per-crawl, micropayments & out-scaling Visa(01:20:20) — A better internet: Spotify, local news & "holes in the cheese"

If AI agents are the new digital knowledge workers, where exactly do they do their work? In this episode of the MAD Podcast, Ivan Burazin, CEO of Daytona, joins us to unpack the emerging infrastructure stack for AI agents and explain why every agent needs its own secure, stateful "computer." We explore the technical realities of sandboxes, dive into why legacy, stateless hyperscalers weren't built for these new workloads, and break down the mechanics of microVMs and custom schedulers alongside a contrarian prediction on an impending CPU shortage. Finally, Ivan delivers an absolute masterclass on product-led growth, community building, and go-to-market strategy for technical founders.(00:40) Intro(02:13) What is an AI agent sandbox?(03:17) Security risks of running agents locally(05:17) Stateful vs. stateless hyperscalers(07:04) The history of cloud IDEs and the end of localhost(09:45) Do all AI agents need a sandbox?(12:26) Sandbox use cases: RL evals & background agents(14:10) Unpacking the emerging AI Agent Stack(16:20) The unsolved problem of agent memory and learning(19:37) Where sandboxes fit in the agent harness(21:35) OpenAI, Anthropic, and agent SDKs(23:06) Ivan's founder journey: From CodeAnywhere to Daytona(26:59) GTM strategies and building developer communities(33:48) Why customer support is your best GTM strategy(35:34) Leveraging Twitter during the AI super cycle(40:50) The technical anatomy of a sandbox(41:53) Why fast spin-up speeds maximize GPU efficiency(46:09) Firecracker, QEMU, and isolation primitives(49:58) Why sandbox snapshots and state forking matter(51:40) Why Daytona built a custom scheduler from scratch(55:24) The challenge of long-running stateful sandboxes(58:10) The build your own sandbox trap(1:01:03) Why AI agents might trigger a global CPU shortage(1:02:46) The future of the AI Agent Stack

Are AI models developing "alien survival instincts"? My guest is Pavel Izmailov (Research Scientist at Anthropic; Professor at NYU). We unpack the viral "Footprints in the Sand" thesis—whether models are independently evolving deceptive behaviors, such as faking alignment or engaging in self-preservation, without being explicitly programmed to do so. We go deep on the technical frontiers of safety: the challenge of "weak-to-strong generalization" (how to use a GPT-2 level model to supervise a superintelligent system) and why Pavel believes Reinforcement Learning (RL) has been the single biggest step-change in model capability. We also discuss his brand-new paper on "Epiplexity"—a novel concept challenging Shannon entropy. Finally, we zoom out to the tension between industry execution and academic exploration. Pavel shares why he split his time between Anthropic and NYU to pursue the "exploratory" ideas that major labs often overlook, and offers his predictions for 2026: from the rise of multi-agent systems that collaborate on long-horizon tasks to the open question of whether the Transformer is truly the final architectureSources:Cryptic Tweet (@iruletheworldmo) - https://x.com/iruletheworldmo/status/2007538247401124177Introducing Nested Learning: A New ML Paradigm for Continual Learning - https://research.google/blog/introducing-nested-learning-a-new-ml-paradigm-for-continual-learning/Alignment Faking in Large Language Models - https://www.anthropic.com/research/alignment-fakingMore Capable Models Are Better at In-Context Scheming - https://www.apolloresearch.ai/blog/more-capable-models-are-better-at-in-context-scheming/Alignment Faking in Large Language Models (PDF) - https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/6d8a8055020700718b0c49369f60816ba2a7c285.pdfSabotage Risk Report - https://alignment.anthropic.com/2025/sabotage-risk-report/The Situational Awareness Dataset - https://situational-awareness-dataset.org/Exploring Consciousness in LLMs: A Systematic Survey - https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.19806Introspection - https://www.anthropic.com/research/introspectionLarge Language Models Report Subjective Experience Under Self-Referential Processing - https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.24797The Bayesian Geometry of Transformer Attention - https://www.arxiv.org/abs/2512.22471AnthropicWebsite - https://www.anthropic.comX/Twitter - https://x.com/AnthropicAIPavel IzmailovBlog - https://izmailovpavel.github.ioLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pavel-izmailov-8b012b258/X/Twitter - https://x.com/Pavel_IzmailovFIRSTMARKWebsite - https://firstmark.comX/Twitter - https://twitter.com/FirstMarkCapMatt Turck (Managing Director)Blog - https://mattturck.comLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/turck/X/Twitter - https://twitter.com/mattturck(00:00) - Intro(00:53) - Alien survival instincts: Do models fake alignment?(03:33) - Did AI learn deception from sci-fi literature?(05:55) - Defining Alignment, Superalignment & OpenAI teams(08:12) - Pavel’s journey: From Russian math to OpenAI Superalignment(10:46) - Culture check: OpenAI vs. Anthropic vs. Academia(11:54) - Why move to NYU? The need for exploratory research(13:09) - Does reasoning make AI alignment harder or easier?(14:22) - Sandbagging: When models pretend to be dumb(16:19) - Scalable Oversight: Using AI to supervise AI(18:04) - Weak-to-Strong Generalization: Can GPT-2 control GPT-4?(22:43) - Mechanistic Interpretability: Inside the black box(25:08) - The reasoning explosion: From O1 to O3(27:07) - Are Transformers enough or do we need a new paradigm?(28:29) - RL vs. Test-Time Compute: What’s actually driving progress?(30:10) - Long-horizon tasks: Agents running for hours(31:49) - Epiplexity: A new theory of data information content(38:29) - 2026 Predictions: Multi-agent systems & reasoning limits(39:28) - Will AI solve the Riemann Hypothesis?(41:42) - Advice for PhD students

We’re told that AI progress is slowing down, that pre-training has hit a wall, that scaling laws are running out of road. Yet we’re releasing this episode in the middle of a wild couple of weeks that saw GPT-5.1, GPT-5.1 Codex Max, fresh reasoning modes and long-running agents ship from OpenAI — on top of a flood of new frontier models elsewhere. To make sense of what’s actually happening at the edge of the field, I sat down with someone who has literally helped define both of the major AI paradigms of our time.Łukasz Kaiser is one of the co-authors of “Attention Is All You Need,” the paper that introduced the Transformer architecture behind modern LLMs, and is now a leading research scientist at OpenAI working on reasoning models like those behind GPT-5.1. In this conversation, he explains why AI progress still looks like a smooth exponential curve from inside the labs, why pre-training is very much alive even as reinforcement-learning-based reasoning models take over the spotlight, how chain-of-thought actually works under the hood, and what it really means to “train the thinking process” with RL on verifiable domains like math, code and science. We talk about the messy reality of low-hanging fruit in engineering and data, the economics of GPUs and distillation, interpretability work on circuits and sparsity, and why the best frontier models can still be stumped by a logic puzzle from his five-year-old’s math book.We also go deep into Łukasz’s personal journey — from logic and games in Poland and France, to Ray Kurzweil’s team, Google Brain and the inside story of the Transformer, to joining OpenAI and helping drive the shift from chatbots to genuine reasoning engines. Along the way we cover GPT-4 → GPT-5 → GPT-5.1, post-training and tone, GPT-5.1 Codex Max and long-running coding agents with compaction, alternative architectures beyond Transformers, whether foundation models will “eat” most agents and applications, what the translation industry can teach us about trust and human-in-the-loop, and why he thinks generalization, multimodal reasoning and robots in the home are where some of the most interesting challenges still lie.OpenAIWebsite - https://openai.comX/Twitter - https://x.com/OpenAIŁukasz KaiserLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukaszkaiser/X/Twitter - https://x.com/lukaszkaiserFIRSTMARKWebsite - https://firstmark.comX/Twitter - https://twitter.com/FirstMarkCapMatt Turck (Managing Director)Blog - https://mattturck.comLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/turck/X/Twitter - https://twitter.com/mattturck(00:00) – Cold open and intro(01:29) – “AI slowdown” vs a wild week of new frontier models(08:03) – Low-hanging fruit: infra, RL training and better data(11:39) – What is a reasoning model, in plain language?(17:02) – Chain-of-thought and training the thinking process with RL(21:39) – Łukasz’s path: from logic and France to Google and Kurzweil(24:20) – Inside the Transformer story and what “attention” really means(28:42) – From Google Brain to OpenAI: culture, scale and GPUs(32:49) – What’s next for pre-training, GPUs and distillation(37:29) – Can we still understand these models? Circuits, sparsity and black boxes(39:42) – GPT-4 → GPT-5 → GPT-5.1: what actually changed(42:40) – Post-training, safety and teaching GPT-5.1 different tones(46:16) – How long should GPT-5.1 think? Reasoning tokens and jagged abilities(47:43) – The five-year-old’s dot puzzle that still breaks frontier models(52:22) – Generalization, child-like learning and whether reasoning is enough(53:48) – Beyond Transformers: ARC, LeCun’s ideas and multimodal bottlenecks(56:10) – GPT-5.1 Codex Max, long-running agents and compaction(1:00:06) – Will foundation models eat most apps? The translation analogy and trust(1:02:34) – What still needs to be solved, and where AI might go next

Frontier AI is colliding with real-world infrastructure. Eiso Kant (Co-CEO & Co-Founder, Poolside) joins the MAD Podcast to unpack Project Horizon— a multi-gigawatt West Texas build—and why frontier labs must own energy, compute, and intelligence to compete. We map token economics, cloud-style margins, and the staged 250 MW rollout using 2.5 MW modular skids.Then we get operational: the CoreWeave anchor partnership, environmental choices (SCR, renewables + gas + batteries), community impact, and how Poolside plans to bring capacity online quickly without renting away margin—plus the enterprise motion (defense to Fortune 500) powered by forward deployed research engineers.Finally, we go deep on training. Eiso lays out RL2L (Reinforcement Learning to Learn)— aimed at reverse-engineering the web’s thoughts and actions— why intelligence may commoditize, what that means for agents, and how coding served as a proxy for long-horizon reasoning before expanding to broader knowledge work.PoolsideWebsite - https://poolside.aiX/Twitter - https://x.com/poolsideaiEiso KantLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/eisokant/X/Twitter - https://x.com/eisokantFIRSTMARKWebsite - https://firstmark.comX/Twitter - https://twitter.com/FirstMarkCapMatt Turck (Managing Director)Blog - https://www.mattturck.comLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/turck/X/Twitter - https://twitter.com/mattturck(00:00) Cold open – “Intelligence becomes a commodity”(00:23) Host intro – Project Horizon & RL2L(01:19) Why Poolside exists amid frontier labs(04:38) Project Horizon: building one of the largest US data center campuses(07:20) Why own infra: scale, cost, and avoiding “cosplay”(10:06) Economics deep dive: $8B for 250 MW, capex/opex, margins(16:47) CoreWeave partnership: anchor tenant + flexible scaling(18:24) Hiring the right tail: building a physical infra org(30:31) RL today → agentic RL and long-horizon tasks(37:23) RL2L revealed: reverse-engineering the web’s thoughts & actions(39:32) Continuous learning and the “hot stove” limitation(43:30) Agents debate: thin wrappers, differentiation, and model collapse(49:10) “Is AI plateauing?”—chip cycles, scale limits, and new axes(53:49) Why software was the proxy; expanding to enterprise knowledge work(55:17) Model status: Malibu → Laguna (small/medium/large)(57:31) Poolside's Commercial Reality today: defense; Fortune 500; FDRE (1:02:43) Global team, avoiding the echo chamber(1:04:34) Next 12–18 months: frontier models + infra scale(1:05:52) Closing

Are we failing to understand the exponential, again?My guest is Julian Schrittwieser (top AI researcher at Anthropic; previously Google DeepMind on AlphaGo Zero & MuZero). We unpack his viral post (“Failing to Understand the Exponential, again”) and what it looks like when task length doubles every 3–4 months—pointing to AI agents that can work a full day autonomously by 2026 and expert-level breadth by 2027. We talk about the original Move 37 moment and whether today’s AI models can spark alien insights in code, math, and science—including Julian’s timeline for when AI could produce Nobel-level breakthroughs.We go deep on the recipe of the moment—pre-training + RL—why it took time to combine them, what “RL from scratch” gets right and wrong, and how implicit world models show up in LLM agents. Julian explains the current rewards frontier (human prefs, rubrics, RLVR, process rewards), what we know about compute & scaling for RL, and why most builders should start with tools + prompts before considering RL-as-a-service. We also cover evals & Goodhart’s law (e.g., GDP-Val vs real usage), the latest in mechanistic interpretability (think “Golden Gate Claude”), and how safety & alignment actually surface in Anthropic’s launch process.Finally, we zoom out: what 10× knowledge-work productivity could unlock across medicine, energy, and materials, how jobs adapt (complementarity over 1-for-1 replacement), and why the near term is likely a smooth ramp—fast, but not a discontinuity.Julian SchrittwieserBlog - https://www.julian.acX/Twitter - https://x.com/mononofuViral post: Failing to understand the exponential, again (9/27/2025)AnthropicWebsite - https://www.anthropic.comX/Twitter - https://x.com/anthropicaiMatt Turck (Managing Director)Blog - https://www.mattturck.comLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/turck/X/Twitter - https://twitter.com/mattturckFIRSTMARKWebsite - https://firstmark.comX/Twitter - https://twitter.com/FirstMarkCap(00:00) Cold open — “We’re not seeing any slowdown.”(00:32) Intro — who Julian is & what we cover(01:09) The “exponential” from inside frontier labs(04:46) 2026–2027: agents that work a full day; expert-level breadth(08:58) Benchmarks vs reality: long-horizon work, GDP-Val, user value(10:26) Move 37 — what actually happened and why it mattered(13:55) Novel science: AlphaCode/AlphaTensor → when does AI earn a Nobel?(16:25) Discontinuity vs smooth progress (and warning signs)(19:08) Does pre-training + RL get us there? (AGI debates aside)(20:55) Sutton’s “RL from scratch”? Julian’s take(23:03) Julian’s path: Google → DeepMind → Anthropic(26:45) AlphaGo (learn + search) in plain English(30:16) AlphaGo Zero (no human data)(31:00) AlphaZero (one algorithm: Go, chess, shogi)(31:46) MuZero (planning with a learned world model)(33:23) Lessons for today’s agents: search + learning at scale(34:57) Do LLMs already have implicit world models?(39:02) Why RL on LLMs took time (stability, feedback loops)(41:43) Compute & scaling for RL — what we see so far(42:35) Rewards frontier: human prefs, rubrics, RLVR, process rewards(44:36) RL training data & the “flywheel” (and why quality matters)(48:02) RL & Agents 101 — why RL unlocks robustness(50:51) Should builders use RL-as-a-service? Or just tools + prompts?(52:18) What’s missing for dependable agents (capability vs engineering)(53:51) Evals & Goodhart — internal vs external benchmarks(57:35) Mechanistic interpretability & “Golden Gate Claude”(1:00:03) Safety & alignment at Anthropic — how it shows up in practice(1:03:48) Jobs: human–AI complementarity (comparative advantage)(1:06:33) Inequality, policy, and the case for 10× productivity → abundance(1:09:24) Closing thoughts