Creator Science with Jay Clouse

My guest is Dorie Clark, a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, 4-time Thinkers50 honoree as one of the world's top business thinkers, and longtime faculty member at Duke and Columbia Business Schools. Dorie is, by her own description, a LinkedIn person. She has close to 500,000 followers there, which puts her in the top half a percent of accounts on the platform. But in January 2026, she decided to learn Instagram. She started with 22,000 followers on an account she'd had since 2015 that was mostly personal photos. For the next 4.5 months, she treated it like a part-time job: 10 to 20 hours a week, 99 Reels. Her net gain was about 350 followers. Thirty-five percent of those videos earned her exactly zero new followers. Then in June, it turned around. She gained more than 146,000 new followers across June and July. By September, she was past 400,000. The reason I was excited to talk to Dorie specifically: she didn't win by buying production value. She films and edits all of her videos herself, all of it self-taught over the past few months. Her approach feels like one we can all actually learn from. In this episode, we talk about: The 4.5-month slog where nothing worked and the single data point that gave her permission to keep going Why celebrity reactions are a growth hack for strangers, and the Dolly Parton video that got her on TV in Chicago Her complete workflow: from raw idea capture to batching, scripting, filming, editing, and posting The 30-page AI context document she built to keep her voice consistent and her hooks sharp Why she outgrew her team's video editing and what taking it back herself unlocked By the end of this episode, you will have a practical, doable framework for building a high-growth Instagram presence without a production team, a big budget, or a hot take machine. Dorie Clark — dorieclark.com @dorieclark on Instagram The Long Game (Dorie's book) Nausheen Chen — Instagram growth story referenced Sandcastles by Kallaway — research tool Dorie uses Recognized Expert — her flagship course and community Full transcript and show notes *** TIMESTAMPS (00:00) Cold open: money is not the variable buying you success (00:27) Introducing Dorie Clark (03:29) Why Instagram after a decade of LinkedIn dominance (05:37) The 4.5-month slog: 99 Reels, 350 followers (07:21) Eating her own dog food: The Long Game in real life (12:30) Cross-posting Reels to LinkedIn and what transfers (21:53) When things turned around — and why (23:24) Celebrity reactions as an entry point for strangers (27:36) Early business results: CNBC, Chicago TV, sponsorships (32:11) The full workflow: idea capture to posting (35:10) The 30-page AI context document and how she built it (39:48) Filming in batches with wardrobe changes in New York (50:59) Dorie's immutable laws of Instagram growth *** RECOMMENDED NEXT EPISODE #316: Kallaway’s EXACT System For Going Viral (Almost Every Time) *** ASK CREATOR SCIENCE Submit your question here *** WHEN YOU'RE READY 📬 Creator Science Newsletter 🚀 Get CreatorHQ (creator operating system) 🧪 Join The Lab (private membership community) 🧞 Get a Personalized Offer *** CONNECT 🐦 Connect on Twitter 📸 Connect on Instagram 💼 Connect on LinkedIn 📹 Subscribe on YouTube *** SPONSORS 💼 View all sponsors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest is Jessica Lackey, founder of Deeper Foundations and author of Leaving the Casino: Stop Betting on Tactics and Start Building a Business That Works. She helps coaches, consultants, and service providers build expert-led businesses on strong foundations. Jessica tried the social media game. She hired a social media team for two years, ran Ship 30 for 30 on Twitter, tested Instagram. She never cracked 1,700 followers. So she built her business a different way: 50 guest podcast appearances, 50 guest teaching spots in other communities, 20 to 30 programs joined and participated in over four years. Every visibility opportunity landed 10 to 20 new people on her email list. It was slow, linear, and intentional. Today she has 2,000 people on her email list and 200 paying members in her membership. That's a 10% conversion rate on her list, against the creator industry standard of 1 to 3%. Her business has earned over $300,000 for three consecutive years. Almost nothing she sells is one and done. The whole thing is built on renewals and retention, not growth and virality. In this episode, we talk about: How she built from 200 to 2,000 email subscribers through relationships and guest appearances, not social media Her 3-offer stack (1:1 consulting, 6-month cohort, and membership) and how each piece supports the others Why she does a 30-minute welcome call with every new member at $50 per month — and how she thinks about the economics The KPIs she tracks with clients instead of followers and views: outreach count, visibility opportunities, and what she calls seeds, sprouts, and fruits The trade-offs she's made by choosing this model and why she's made peace with them By the end of this episode, you will have a clear picture of how a small, deliberate audience can support a thriving six-figure business — and what it actually costs to build one that way. Deeper Foundations Leaving the Casino Deeper Foundations Membership Aggressively Human Community as a deliberate Business Model “For You” or “By You”: The K-Shaped Content Era The Zone of Enoughness Sacred Sales Hour LinkedIn Full transcript and show notes *** TIMESTAMPS (00:00) Cold open: the trade-off Jessica has chosen (00:19) Introducing Jessica Lackey (02:34) Why the social media game didn't work for her (04:05) The relationship-first growth strategy (06:53) Her offer stack: 1:1, cohort, and membership (09:39) Revenue breakdown and pricing (10:52) How the membership grew from 30 members to 200 (12:52) The 30-minute welcome call that doesn't make economic sense (18:29) Free monthly workshops for 4 years: the Deeper Business Dialogues (20:21) The KPIs that actually matter for an expertise business (22:26) Is there a ceiling on this approach? (26:45) Why Jessica has chosen her ceiling on purpose (43:53) How to follow people around the internet like a puppy, not a stalker *** RECOMMENDED NEXT EPISODE #319: How Tamara Grominsky Predictably Grows Her Membership Each Month *** ASK CREATOR SCIENCE Submit your question here *** WHEN YOU'RE READY 📬 Creator Science Newsletter 🚀 Get CreatorHQ (creator operating system) 🧪 Join The Lab (private membership community) 🧞 Get a Personalized Offer *** CONNECT 🐦 Connect on Twitter 📸 Connect on Instagram 💼 Connect on LinkedIn 📹 Subscribe on YouTube *** SPONSORS 💼 View all sponsors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest is Tamara Grominsky, founder of PMM Camp — a private, application-only membership for senior product marketing leaders with 280+ members. Tamara spent 15 years in product marketing, eventually landing at Kajabi as VP of Product Marketing. She went there with a specific agenda: study how the best creators build their businesses, then reverse engineer it for herself. She started a newsletter, surveyed her audience, learned the thing they needed most was connection, and launched a membership in March 2023. Six months later, she left Kajabi. Her model isn't always-open or quarterly-launch. It's application-gated, opens for exactly five days on the first of every month, and runs on Kit workflows and Circle. She's been on this monthly cadence for nine months and now forecasts her revenue 12 months in advance. She's hit every number this year. Tamara is also in our Lab mastermind, which means I've watched this system get built in real time. This conversation is nine months of mastermind updates compressed into a podcast episode. In this episode, we talk about: How she went from VP of Product Marketing at Kajabi to building her own membership — and why leaving a job she loved was still the right call The monthly open cart model: application-gated, waitlist-driven, four emails, five days, and why it turned a chaotic launch calendar into a predictable business What a personalized onboarding document looks like, and how she gets 90%+ of new members onto a welcome call Her hypothesis about why her conversion rate is stuck at 30% — and what she's testing next By the end of this episode, you will have a complete model for running a membership like a product — with systems, baselines, and experiments that make revenue forecastable. PMM Camp (Home) PMM Camp Community (Membership + Pricing) PMM Leadership Bootcamp (6-Week Cohort) Newsletter Archive (188 editions, every Sunday) Tamara's LinkedIn Tamara's X Full transcript and show notes *** TIMESTAMPS (00:00) Introduction (01:26) What product marketing actually is (04:43) From Kajabi to PMM Camp (06:49) What she learned studying creators (11:28) The decision to leave (13:23) Finding the founding 25 (16:47) Inside PMM Camp today (18:29) The welcome call and onboarding doc (25:25) Why evergreen broke her business (27:52) The monthly open cart model (33:17) The Kit workflow behind the cart (36:09) The conversion rate problem (44:54) The visibility hypothesis *** RECOMMENDED NEXT EPISODE #313: How Tom Ross Doubled His Community Engagement and Retention With Training Pathways #318: The $9/month membership earning more than $500k/year AND buying Smart Passive Income — Pt. 2 featuring Liz Wilcox *** ASK CREATOR SCIENCE Submit your question here *** WHEN YOU'RE READY 📬 Creator Science Newsletter 🚀 Get CreatorHQ (creator operating system) 🧪 Join The Lab (private membership community) 🧞‍♂️ Get a Personalized Offer *** CONNECT 🐦 Connect on Twitter 📸 Connect on Instagram 💼 Connect on LinkedIn 📹 Subscribe on YouTube *** SPONSORS 💼 View all sponsors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices