Decoder with Nilay Patel

My guest today is Kevin Roose, a journalist and author of the new book The AGI Chronicles. Kevin was a longtime New York Times reporter and host of the popular podcast Hard Fork, but he and friend of the show Casey Newton just left The Times to start the all-new tech podcast Machine Gods, which launched last week.  Kevin and I talked about launching Machine Gods and what it’s like to go from mainstream media to being an independent creator. Of course, we also talked about his book, which is excellently reported dive into the companies racing to build machine intelligence. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The AGI Chronicles | Kevin Roose Can AI replicate in your smart TV? | Machine Gods (YouTube) Introducing Machine Gods | Platformer Inside the biggest feud in artificial intelligence | The Atlantic The essay that started the AI race | Kevin Roose A conversation with Bing’s chatbot left me deeply unsettled | NYT Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker,  has a lot of thoughts about AI, tech, and privacy. Those issues are driving a big and maybe kind of unexpected political realignment — and with the midterms coming up next month, and early voting already underway in a lot of places, the stakes are pretty high right now. And as he notes, some problems are just collective action problems that require a government. We can’t solve everything one at a time, or even one state at a time. And of course, I had to ask him: Are the Bears gonna stay in Illinois? Links:  How ordinary Utahns fought the biggest data center in the world  | The Verge New York Gov. Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’  | Decoder YouTube CEO: ‘We’re focused on internal safety efforts’  | CNN Pritzker signs landmark AI regulation bill | Capitol News Illinois Pritzker establishes AI Cabinet amid calls for regulation | NPR Ilinois Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by [TK EDITOR]. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Benn Jordan, musician, YouTuber, researcher, and investigative journalist. In the last couple of years, Benn has become a high-profile face in the creator and media spaces for his work investigating Flock Safety, the maker of automatic license plate readers and the software that powers them.  Benn recently testified in front of Congress at a hearing dedicated to Flock and other ALPR systems. So of course I wanted to dig into all of that with Benn, not just because of his role as a Flock critic, but because he’s also become in some ways the face of a new front in the broader debate about surveillance and privacy.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Benn Jordan testifies in front of Senate | Benn Jordan (YouTube) Flock values their privacy. Oh well | Benn Jordan (YouTube) We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds | Benn Jordan (YouTube) Lawmakers introduce multiple laws to curb Flock | 404 Media The fight over Flock and other ALPRs | The Verge Sanders, AOC, Merkley propose bill to ban Flock cameras | Politico Cities terminate Flock contracts at record pace in August | Ars Technica Flock to cut several hundred jobs amid backlash | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Acquiring Warner Bros. never goes well for anyone. AOL failed, AT&T failed, and Discovery failed — although it did succeed in flipping the assets to David Ellison’s Skydance. So I’m talking to Peter Kafka, Business Insider chief correspondent and host of Channels, to see if Skydance has a chance at succeeding where nobody else has yet. Spoiler alert: Peter doesn’t think Skydance has a clear business plan, either. But he’s got some really good guesses about what might come next. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  CNN boss remains as Paramount, WBD merge into Skydance | The Verge Skydance CEOs: Layoffs will be coming | Variety Ynon Kriez, the new Skydance co-CEO | Business Insider Skydance sets leadership across games, experiences | Variety Paramount settles lawsuit blocking $110B WBD merger | The Verge  Larry Ellison’s big dumb gift to his large adult son | The Verge Weiss’ ratings wipeout | Status Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win her.  Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

California Sen. Adam Schiff sits on a bunch of the committees that do tech and AI oversight, so I really wanted to ask him about how we might regulate anything related to the tech industry at this moment in time. He started our conversation by talking about the self-dealing and corruption present all through our politics now — right against the backdrop of President Trump gathering AI CEOs to the White House to pinky-swear they'll try to keep AI safe. Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge.⁠ Links:  How tech will self-police AI safety under Trump deal | The Verge Supreme Court ruling kneecaps federal regulators | The Verge Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn’t kill everyone?  | Decoder Flock, Axon dodge Senate hearing | CNBC Trump admin illegally blacklisted Anthropic, court rules  | The Verge Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win here.  Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Josh Dzieza, a longtime features writer here at The Verge, about a massive data center in Utah that does not exist, might never exist, and yet has already completely reshaped the politics of the entire state.  Josh just published a major feature this week on the struggling Stratos data center project in Utah backed by Shark Tank star Kevin O’Leary. So I invited Josh on the show to discuss what’s happening inside the AI industry’s infrastructure boom, inside the bipartisan backlash to data centers, and how the tech industry is running into the one obstacle it can’t seem to spend its way out of: local democracy.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  The People of Utah vs. Kevin O'Leary | The Verge Adams — burdened by data center fallout — ousted by voters | Salt Lake Tribune ‘Shark Tank’ star sued by opponents he claimed were foreign agents| NYT Fox News apologizes for airing O’Leary claims about data centers | The Hill Kevin O’Leary agrees to downsize massive Utah data center | The Verge The biggest data center ever is becoming a huge problem in Utah | The Verge America's data center future is Loudoun County's past | The Verge The left and right agree on one thing: no data centers | Decoder Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win ⁠here⁠. Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cloudflare discovered in June that bots already make up more than half of internet traffic — and CEO Matthew Prince says that bots could outnumber humans a thousand to one within five years. That's a huge change to the internet, and if the web is going to keep existing, it needs a huge change to its business model. Can Cloudflare use its place in the ecosystem to direct the money back to the people who make content? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How I choose which Cloudflare employees to replace with AI | Wall Street Journal Why Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince is the internet’s unlikely defender | Decoder (2024) Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Patreon partners with Cloudflare to block AI crawlers | 404 Media Sony and Warner sue Anthropic in latest AI music lawsuit | Billboard Trump administration supports OpenAI in NYT copyright lawsuit  | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman, who is the world’s best-sourced Apple reporter. Earlier this month, Apple hosted its annual iPhone hardware event, and this event was special, for a number of reasons.  It was new Apple CEO John Ternus’ first major product launch. It was also the debut of the foldable iPhone Duo. So I wanted Mark on the show to explain why this event was so important, and how John Ternus’ Apple will look a lot different from Tim Cook’s.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Apple iPhone Duo launch event: the 5 biggest announcements | The Verge The iPhone Duo is Apple’s first foldable | The Verge Tim Cook’s CEO-like pay package shows he isn’t going anywhere | Bloomberg Apple’s Phil Schiller steps down from running App Store | Bloomberg Apple’s new CEO will need to soon overhaul his management team | Bloomberg Apple’s Ternus takes the reins as CEO, with AI as job No. 1 | Bloomberg Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. As you’re no doubt aware, the biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. So I really wanted to talk to Mustafa about what he thinks is real and not in AI safety, whether the concept of alignment itself is up to the task, and whether this industry needs to slow down before it kills us all.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  A warning about ‘model welfare’ | Mustafa Suleyman Humanist AI Code of Conduct | Microsoft Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge A brief history of AI executives calling for regulation | The Verge What execs and politicians are saying about slowing down AI development | The Verge Anthropic CEO says it’s time to pump the brakes on AI | The Verge Microsoft’s AI chief says superintelligence is near, but won’t take your job | Decoder (2026) Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web browser | Decoder (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re back with another Decoder mailbag special. This time, we focused on feedback to Nilay’s “software brain” video essay, our ongoing coverage of AI and Big Tech backlash, surveillance, interviewing politicians ahead of the midterms, and more. Remember: we really do read every email, so please keep sending us your feedback, and letting us know what you think of our coverage and how we can improve.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How to win — and lose — Decoder | Decoder Mailbag (2026) Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025) Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024) Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | Decoder (2026) The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Bluesky’s new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble | Decoder New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’ | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Gregg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices